Question for Seventh Day Adventist

[BobRyan]

No Bob, in fact my view is not messy. Because they all appear before the judgment seat of Christ to give account. So no one is left wondering.

Messy - because you have a second coming with all humans that have ever lived standing around for eons at Christ's appearing -- waiting to see if they are going to be counted as the "dead in Christ" of 1 Thess 4:13-18.

Messy - because you claim that once God knows something He takes action - and ignores the Dan 7 doctrine of pre-advent judgment resulting in "judgment passed in favor of the saints" - a judgment where information i given to the observers in heaven before the 2nd coming - and only then bringing about the second coming.

Messy - because if God simply pressed "end of video" as soon as He figured out the end -- then we are over 6000 years too late for that event.

 

[BobRyan]

So the point is, the opposing view needs to now be posted here! The reason why is because lots of statements are being made against the SDA view, however, not one of those statements includes the timeline for the opposing views...that is not a balanced way to provide information to readers of this thread...all they hear is, "the SDA method is wrong", but do not hear what the counter view actually is!

Good point!

A couple of reasons for not posting the alternatives
1. The SDA view is the obvious natural solution for day-for-year since:
a. All timelines are contiguous
b. All apocalyptic timelines (such as Dan 9 seventy weeks, 490 days) use day for year.

2. Alternative slice and dice that 490 year contiguous timeline and scatter it all over Earth's history in bits and pieces with gaps of undefined lengths of time inserted.

 

[BobRyan]

The Romans 2 judgment happens on that day, which you already tied to the second coming, and the later judgment on the wicked.

It (the Romans 2 judgment future to Paul's day) happens before the second coming as Dan 7 specifically states - and concludes with "judgment passed in favor of the saints" prior to the 2nd coming. Paul never mentions the 2nd coming in Romans 2 as happening first.

This is irrefutable.

see - 17 minutes ago #158

 

[BobRyan]

You need to address the timing of all the following, ...
Rom 2:15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them
Rom 2:16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus

Easy - it is the judgment of Dan 7 that is in the courtroom of heaven where the "books are opened" and the "court sits" - which is future to Paul's day as he points out in Romans 2 -- And at the conclusion of that judgment -- "judgment is passed in favor of the saints" - and then the 2nd coming takes place because at that point all the universal watchers are on board with just who is "the dead in Christ" of 1 Thess 4:13-18

 

[BobRyan]

You need to address the timing of all the following,...

Act 17:30 The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent,
Act 17:31 because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead.”'

Easy - it is the judgment of Dan 7 that is in the courtroom of heaven where the "books are opened" and the "court sits" - which is future to Paul's day as he points out in Romans 2 -- And at the conclusion of that judgment -- "judgment is passed in favor of the saints" - and then the 2nd coming takes place because at that point all the universal watchers are on board with just who is "the dead in Christ" of 1 Thess 4:13-18

Not exactly rocket science so far.

 

[BobRyan]

And why is that Bob? You won't address the many texts that show interaction at the second coming.

Interaction with the saved "with the dead in Christ" of 1 Thess 4:13, raised at the "first resurrection" of Rev 20 (which is ONLY the dead in Christ as scripture says) is at the second coming.

Interaction with the lost "raised in the second resurrection" - Rev 20 - is after the millennium

 

[tall73]

Paul never mentions the 2nd coming in Romans 2 as happening first.

Rom 2:15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them
Rom 2:16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.


The judgment happens on that day. You stated some pass and some fail. That day is consistently at Jesus' coming. You even admitted it earlier when you said that in your view that day combines the second coming and the later judgment on the wicked.

So now you are changing your definition of that day?

We are in "that day" the "day of the Lord" the "day of judgment" since 1844 in your view?

 

[tall73]

Interaction with the saved "with the dead in Christ" of 1 Thess 4:13, raised at the "first resurrection" of Rev 20 (which is ONLY the dead in Christ as scripture says) is at the second coming.

Interaction with the lost "raised in the second resurrection" - Rev 20 - is after the millennium

All of those happen after the second coming.

 

[AdamjEdgar]

Are you asking about this or something else?

As anciently the sins of the people were by faith placed upon the sin offering and through its blood transferred, in figure, to the earthly sanctuary, so in the new covenant the sins of the repentant are by faith placed upon Christ and transferred, in fact, to the heavenly sanctuary. Great Controversy, chapter 23

Re: 2300 days prophecy, have you watched the video by Pastor Stephen Bohr?

-------------------------

i simply do not agree with almost all of Des Ford's presuppositions...they are largely innuendo, full of irrelevant unsupported ones liners, and hearsay. I fundamentally do not rate that as academic research...it is an extremely poor example of academic writing by a man who is supposedly an expert! It is unfathomable that he does not make a decent attempt to provide balanced arguments, instead relying on his unsupported suppositions to ignore the counter arguments.

-------------------------


Here is the problem I see for those who disagree with the heavenly sanctuary doctrine...

1. we are told very specifically that the earthly tabernacle is a copy of the heavenly one. (this is the starting supposition that is irrefutable...one cannot deny this fact!)

2. We are told in Hebrews that the earthly tabernacle is representative of the old covenant (i believe this is the covenant given by the Israelites to God in the Sinai desert

3. We are told in Hebrews 9 that the Heavenly sanctuary is representative of the New Covenant

4. We are told in Hebrews 9 that the way into the Most Holy Place in the heavenly sanctuary has not yet been disclosed whilst the old tabernacle is still standing

------------------------

So here is where I am at with this...lets talk type and antitype where, the earthly sanctuary is the type and heavenly antitype.

When we look at the prophecy in Daniel, the type refers to immediate historical prophecy to Daniel's day (ie the restoration and rebuilding of Jerusalem and the coming of the Messiah), the antitype refers to the distant future. Are these two colinear occuring in parrallel), or are they concurrent (one after the other)? I see them as being played out in series (to use an electrical/electronic circuit illustration), and therefore, they are not running at the same time. This would mean that Jesus crucifixion begins the pathway through the Heavenly Sanctuary.

I realise that if Jesus crucifixion starts the process of the new covenant, based on better promises, and a more excellent heavenly ministry in the sanctuary, one could ask "why did he die on earth, should he not have died in heaven" and "Does this mean the earth is the Holy Place compartment of the Heavenly Sanctuary"?

I would have to argue,

1. if the earthly sanctuary already has a Holy Place built of the hands of men, and is a shadow/copy of the heavenly,
2. Adam sinned on earth and Jesus was to act as a substitute for Adam's sin, Jesus needed to take his place among us...to experience human form, human desires, human suffering...that could not be done in heaven

my answer to the above 2 questions by logic would have to be in the negative.

My own personal questions regarding the SDA IJ are such that i have also put to my own father who is an SDA minister...

1. exactly how do we (as SDA's who promote the IJ) explain Jesus heavenly "Holy Place" ministry from A.D 31 to 1844? Exactly what was Jesus doing in heaven acting as a Priest inside that compartment for 1800 years! (the time is not relevant, i want to know exactly what priestly function he was performing!)

2. How do we answer the tearing of the Veil at the crucifixion? If the heavenly is a more excellent version of the earthly (as is the case with the new covenant), then the tearing of the earthly sanctuary veil must have some heavenly sanctuary significance!

Could it be that the entire Heavenly Sanctuary narrative changes to something completely different to what the Israelites were given in the Sinai Desert? Could it be that the New Covenant becomes a Sanctuary Service focusing on the parable of the Good Samaritan and Gentile ministry? How does that look exactly?

Off the top of my head, i vaguely recall a discussion somewhere about there being no separation of compartments in the heavenly by a veil as such...i think this might be in the vision in revelation talking about 24 elders? (i have to go looking for this again). I do not recall if this was specific to a particular time context perhaps after 1844 or even the second coming...but it may have been?

 

[tall73]

tall73 said: ↑
You need to address the timing of all the following,...

Act 17:30 The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent,
Act 17:31 because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead.”'


BobRyan said: ↑
Easy - it is the judgment of Dan 7 that is in the courtroom of heaven where the "books are opened" and the "court sits" - which is future to Paul's day as he points out in Romans 2 -- And at the conclusion of that judgment -- "judgment is passed in favor of the saints" - and then the 2nd coming takes place because at that point all the universal watchers are on board with just who is "the dead in Christ" of 1 Thess 4:13-18
Not exactly rocket science so far.

Not exactly rocket science so far.

He says there is a day of judgmennt for the whole world Bob. So does Romans 2. That includes the righteous and the wicked, and you indicated that was starting with the second coming and going to the judgment of the wicked.

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said: ↑
I say that the 1 Thess 4:13-18 that it is just "the dead in Christ" (out of all mankind ) that are raised - at the second coming - so that means the pre-advent IJ judgment of Dan 7 completes before that time just as Dan 7 states. And this is pretty obvious. What is more there never was a prior time in all of history where all "the dead in Christ" were raised without any review. I am guessing we both know that is true as well.

Bob, you haven't even shown a pre-advent judgment of the IJ sort, .

"Judgment passed in favor of the saints" Dan 7:22 - posted to you dozens of times on this thread

22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom. (So that is clearly pre-advent judgment out of books)

Senquenced... and in that order.

"judgment out of the books of record" with deeds of each one of those being judged in record.
9 “I kept looking
Until thrones were set up,
And the Ancient of Days took His seat;
His garment was white as snow,
And the hair of His head like pure wool.
His throne was ablaze with flames,
Its wheels were a burning fire.
10 A river of fire was flowing
And coming out from before Him;
Thousands upon thousands were serving Him,
And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him;
The court convened,
And the books were opened.

Each of person - individual deeds -
2 Cor 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive compensation for his deeds done through the body, in accordance with what he has done, whether good or bad.

Judgment "out of the books" is judgment of the deeds of each person recorded there.
Rev 20
12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.

In all cases - judgment out of the books that are opened - is a judgment of each individual recorded there according to individual deeds - good OR bad.

this is irrefutable.

Rom 2:3 But do you suppose this, you foolish person who passes judgment on those who practice such things, and yet does them as well, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and restraint and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will repay each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life; 8 but to those who are self-serving and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, He will give wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of mankind who does evil, for the Jew first and also for the Greek, 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who does what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.

All of this has been pointed out to you repeatedly on this thread - and you keep asking for it "again"... not sure how that is helping your case.

 

[BobRyan]

He says there is a day of judgmennt for the whole world Bob. .

2 Peter 3: (second coming, millennium and Rev 20 Lake of fire - as "one day")

3 Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue just as they were from the beginning of creation.” 5 For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water, 6 through which the world at that time was destroyed by being flooded with water. 7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly people.

8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not willing for any to perish, but for all to come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.
11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be
​

As already pointed out on this thread repeatedly. you may not approve of what you see here - but it 'has' been posted.

 

[tall73]

Re: 2300 days prophecy, have you watched the video by Pastor Stephen Bohr?

-------------------------

EDIT:

I watched it now. Pretty much the usual presentation of the 70 weeks, which I said several times now I accept.

It referenced the 2,300 days for a moment but did not elaborate. I do not agree with the Adventist interpretation of the 2,300 days.

i simply do not agree with almost all of Des Ford's presuppositions...they are largely innuendo, full of irrelevant unsupported ones liners, and hearsay. I fundamentally do not rate that as academic research...it is an extremely poor example of academic writing by a man who is supposedly an expert! It is unfathomable that he does not make a decent attempt to provide balanced arguments, instead relying on his unsupported suppositions to ignore the counter arguments.

I quoted Ellen White to clarify which point you were speaking of, and you started talking about Ford again. I told you in the Ford thread I do not support all of Ford's conclusions.

And I told you in this thread already that I accept the year day, linked to Shea's article in the DARCOM series, and indicated that I accept the 70 weeks.

So here is where I am at with this...lets talk type and antitype where, the earthly sanctuary is the type and heavenly antitype.

We have been in the other thread. You didn't reply for a while, and I understand you were working a lot.

I realise that if Jesus crucifixion starts the process of the new covenant, based on better promises, and a more excellent heavenly ministry in the sanctuary, one could ask "why did he die on earth, should he not have died in heaven" and "Does this mean the earth is the Holy Place compartment of the Heavenly Sanctuary"?

I would have to argue,

1. if the earthly sanctuary already has a Holy Place built of the hands of men, and is a shadow/copy of the heavenly,
2. Adam sinned on earth and Jesus was to act as a substitute for Adam's sin, Jesus needed to take his place among us...to experience human form, human desires, human suffering...that could not be done in heaven

my answer to the above 2 questions by logic would have to be in the negative.

I am not Ice. I have not proposed the earth is the holy place. I am not Des either. We are discussing in the other thread if you want to.

 

[tall73]

2 Peter 3: (second coming, millennium and Rev 20 Lake of fire - as "one day")

Yes Bob, I saw your definition.

-second coming,
- 1k years and
- great white throne and lake of fire.

None of those are pre-advent. They all start with the advent.

All of mankind are judged then on that day.

Rom 2:16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

Mat 12:35 The good person out of his good treasure brings forth good, and the evil person out of his evil treasure brings forth evil.
Mat 12:36 I tell you, on the day of judgment people will give account for every careless word they speak,
Mat 12:37 for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”

Act 17:31 because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead.”'

 

[tall73]

Each of person - individual deeds -
2 Cor 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive compensation for his deeds done through the body, in accordance with what he has done, whether good or bad.

This is not pre-advent.

2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.

We must all appear ἵνα, in order that.....EACH ONE MAY RECEIVE. We appear to receive what is due.

No one receives what is due at the supposed pre-advent IJ of Ellen White. But here they do. And it is either good or evil--all are included.

Notice Paul also says He will receive His reward on that day from the Righteous Judge:

2Ti 4:7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.
2Ti 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on that day, and not only to me but also to all who have loved his appearing.

He here states He will appear before the Judge who will award him the prize on that day.

This is all at the second coming, not before.

 

[tall73]

Rom 2:3 But do you suppose this, you foolish person who passes judgment on those who practice such things, and yet does them as well, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and restraint and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will repay each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life; 8 but to those who are self-serving and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, He will give wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of mankind who does evil, for the Jew first and also for the Greek, 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who does what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.

All of this has been pointed out to you repeatedly on this thread - and you keep asking for it "again"... not sure how that is helping your case.

Now you won't even quote verse 16, because it says Romans 2 happens on that day--and you already defined that as the second coming and forward. That is why I keep posting it. Because you won't explain how all the statements about individual judgment reference "that day" and you already defined that as

-second coming
-1k years
-great white throne judgment.

Rom 2:16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

 

[tall73]

Good point!

A couple of reasons for not posting the alternatives
1. The SDA view is the obvious natural solution for day-for-year since:
a. All timelines are contiguous
b. All apocalyptic timelines (such as Dan 9 seventy weeks, 490 days) use day for year.

2. Alternative slice and dice that 490 year contiguous timeline and scatter it all over Earth's history in bits and pieces with gaps of undefined lengths of time inserted.

I accept the Adventist view of the 70 weeks. And I do not divide the last week as do futurists. And even Adventist scholars have acknowledged that the 70 weeks use sabbatical years.

Nor have I disagreed with the year day principle. I linked to Shea's treatment of it in volume 1 of the DARCOM series earlier in this thread.

 

[BobRyan]

A good example of my showing how Romans 2 and Dan 7 point to the future judgment (future to Paul's day) that is before the 2nd coming and deals specifically with individual cases - resulting in "judgment passed in favor of the saints"

"Judgment passed in favor of the saints" Dan 7:22 - posted to you dozens of times on this thread

22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom. (So that is clearly pre-advent judgment out of books)

Senquenced... and in that order.

"judgment out of the books of record" with deeds of each one of those being judged in record.
9 “I kept looking
Until thrones were set up,
And the Ancient of Days took His seat;
His garment was white as snow,
And the hair of His head like pure wool.
His throne was ablaze with flames,
Its wheels were a burning fire.
10 A river of fire was flowing
And coming out from before Him;
Thousands upon thousands were serving Him,
And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him;
The court convened,
And the books were opened.

Each of person - individual deeds -
2 Cor 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive compensation for his deeds done through the body, in accordance with what he has done, whether good or bad.

Judgment "out of the books" is judgment of the deeds of each person recorded there.
Rev 20
12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.

In all cases - judgment out of the books that are opened - is a judgment of each individual recorded there according to individual deeds - good OR bad.

this is irrefutable.

Rom 2:3 But do you suppose this, you foolish person who passes judgment on those who practice such things, and yet does them as well, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and restraint and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will repay each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life; 8 but to those who are self-serving and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, He will give wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of mankind who does evil, for the Jew first and also for the Greek, 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who does what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.

All of this has been pointed out to you repeatedly on this thread - and you keep asking for it "again"... not sure how that is helping your case.

Now you won't even quote verse 16, because it says Romans 2 happens on that day

It is the day of future judgment (And Dan 7 point to judgment future to Paul's day and before the 2nd coming) -- so then not the day of the appearing of Christ according to Rom 2:16

Rom 2:16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

 

[BobRyan]

This is not pre-advent.

2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.

We must all appear .

Yes it is because only those in the 2nd resurrection of Rev 20 (the wicked) appear at the great white throne judgement of Rev 20 - according to Rev 20.

 

[BobRyan]

Yes Bob, I saw your definition.

-second coming,
- 1k years and
- great white throne and lake of fire.

None of those are pre-advent. They all start with the advent.

True - the pre-advent judgment of Dan 7 is before the second coming and Dan 7 makes that clear. The judgment that ends with the result "judgement passed in favor of the saints" is before the second coming.

But even worse for the suggestions you are making is that this text shows that you and I both must accept "At the day of the Lord" as encompassing the second coming, the millennium AND the great white throne judgment - lake of fire.

2 Peter 3: (second coming, millennium and Rev 20 Lake of fire - as "one day")

3 Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue just as they were from the beginning of creation.” 5 For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water, 6 through which the world at that time was destroyed by being flooded with water. 7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly people.

8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not willing for any to perish, but for all to come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.
11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be
​

As already pointed out on this thread repeatedly. you may not approve of what you see here - but it 'has' been posted.