Question for Seventh Day Adventist

[BobRyan]

More like both together reveal and happen AT His coming,

Are you now deleting the entire millennium???

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said: ↑
Interesting but you are going down the wrong road and I think I can prove it to you.

A. 1 Thess 4:13-18 - is this the resurrection of the saints or the wicked or both in your POV? (I think we both know your answer but I could be wrong in my guess about your answer).

The passage is dealing with those who have fallen asleep among the bretheren and they are to comfort one anothe that they will still be re-united at the resurrection. Therefore this passage mentions only those who sleep in Christ.

That leaves you stuck with only the saints. in what the Bible calls the "First Resurrection" Rev 20:3-5.

And Rev 20 GWT 2nd resurrection leaves you stuck with "only the wicked" in that second resurrection.

This means that even in your own view - before any saints can be resurrected to do anything at all... to account for anything at all "in person" they must first have gone through the Dan 7 pre-advent judgment to see if they even are saints.. otherwise who is going to be resurrected at the 2nd coming? (And if God arbitrarily does it without the Dan 7 revealing before all heaven then what is the point of any of this 6000 years of unfolding revealing history of Earth???? You appear to be stick again.

In your view you appear to claim that - all mankind is raised at the 2nd coming as if Rev 20 does not even exist! (??) so do you then sort out who are saints and kill everyone else again at the 2nd coming???

Your own answer leaves you stuck with the same answer you claim only Ellen White could know.

Dan 7 is the pre-advent judgement as even you appear to admit.

And Dan 7:22 says it is "passed in favor of the saints" as the text says.

that is how there can be the "first resurrection" event of 1 Thess 4:13-18 and Rev 20:1-5 --- of just the saints.

This is irrefutable and that means it negates your entire argument to this point.

This is what the Bible says. My guess is that as an SDA pastor you never actually got around to making this Bible case for the doctrine we are discussing. You may have thought at that time that only Ellen White could know this.

That is quite strange reasoning.

In fact, your own view has a similar problem for you.

Those two statements you just made are self-conflicted. Either my point is not logical so nothing for you to be "stuck in" or it is logical. When you say it leaves me stuck in the same way as you - your argument flip-flops to "it is logical". You can't have it both ways.

If you re-imagine the 2nd coming as a big Dan 7 judgment scene where books are opened and each person's name is brought up one by one for all observers to see and evaluate to see who is saved and who is not "by their deeds" in true Romans 2 fashion - you have a hugely long second coming event (and you include each individual in all of time - also having the time to give an account for himself at that time as well????).

Truly astounding - but you can only get there by ignoring all the Bible details I have given so far.

You just admitted that is it only "the dead IN CHRIST" that are raised in 1 Thess 4:13-18 not "And also all who imagined themselves to be dead-in-christ but were not".

If the purpose of the IJ is to decide the cases of the professed believers in God to the satisfaction of the onlooking universes, then how do they know who the professed believers of God are without a pre-pre-advent judgment?

Well no-doubt it had to have happened BEFORE ... but that is wayyy far from arguing it never happened.

In the Bible - even before the names of all are reviewed one by one in Dan 7 - the angels have recorded the deeds. This means that it was already known as to who never had anything to do with the gospel - not even the remotest claim, and so their names are not even added to the book of life.

So that filter is already available just by the physical fact of how they are getting their information into the book of life. AND we ALSO have the full review of those names that did not make is - as being included in the judgment of the 1000 years as noted in Rev 2:3-5 and 1 Cor 6 -- (which apparently you have also deleted??)

So it appears that even with all that deleting -- you are still "stuck" once you admit that it is ONLY the "dead in Christ" that are raised in 1 Thess 4:13-18.

Which you did just admit to.

How do you get around that???

AND you refused so far to answer whether you admit that the second resurrection in Rev 20 is just of the wicked (which would also reveal the self-conflicted point of your argument)... interesting.

How did you ever sort that out?? or is it still a puzzle for you?

 

[BobRyan]

It appears that now your "question for Seventh-day Adventists" - is
1. Why do you believe in a real 1000 year millennium?
2. Why do you believe in two resurrections?
3. Why do you believe it is just the "dead in Christ" that come up at the first resurrection in 1 Thess 4:13-18?
4. Why do you believe it is just the wicked that are raised in the second resurrection?
5. Why do you believe the return of Christ is not an ages long judgment event of all humans on planet earth who have ever lived -- one-by-one with each person "standing, bowing, giving an account" one by one for each deed done in the body while the planet watches and waits its turn...?

 

[tall73]

Are you now deleting the entire millennium???

No, but I am noting not every group agrees with a 1k years, or a literal interpretation of it. I still tend to read Revelation as indicating that, and tend towards a more SDA view on the topic. But I can see some arguments on both sides.

The point was it doesn't matter which you take. The texts point to Jesus revealing secrets at His coming.

If you see that as all happening for both groups at once (as some do who don't hold to a literal 1k years), that is fine. It all starts at Jesus' coming. I realize SDA don't take that view.

But if you see it as divided into Jesus' coming then the 1k years, then the judgment on the wicked which Revelation indicates, that is fine also. It still starts with Jesus' coming because that i when the texts spell it out.

 

[BobRyan]

And we see those things revealed, the hidden things, not at the IJ, but at Jesus' coming.

Jesus' coming in 2 Pet 3 encompasses both what SDA's call the "second coming" in Rev 19 and also what everyone else calls "The second coming" where Christ reigns on Earth (that we both know is in Rev 20). That combination "reveals" to all on earth the results of the Dan 7 pre-advent judgment as well as the judgment that happens during the 1000 years in Rev 20:2-5.

you are skipping over details and it is leaving you with conflicted statements.

More like both together reveal and happen AT His coming, not before, as already mentioned in the various posts above, and summarized here:

1Co 4:5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.1Co 4:5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.

It is not in the IJ that the purposes of the heart are revealed. But at His coming. The text is quite clear.

.

Are you now deleting the entire millennium???

No, but I am noting not every group agrees with a 1k years, or a literal interpretation of it. I still tend to read Revelation as indicating that, and tend towards a more SDA view on the topic.

But I can see some arguments on both sides.

So you are posting arguments/positions you don't even believe?? !!!!

If you look at the eschatology and end-times section of CF you see a zillion different ideas - if you are going to post things you don't even believe as your "response" -- then there is a zillion lanes of misdirection you can choose from.

I don't see how that is very helpful.

 

[BobRyan]

The point was it doesn't matter which you take. The texts point to Jesus revealing secrets at His coming.

As I stated - with God destroying all the living wicked at the Rev 19 event that many SDAs call "the second coming" and with God judging and then destroying all the resurrected wicked in Rev 20 - we have all secrets of all wicked mankind revealed for all to see in those two events that are described in 2 Peter 3 as "the day" of the Lord.

2 Peter 3:

8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not willing for any to perish, but for all to come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be discovered.​

your response of "it does not matter which you choose" is effectively saying "no matter which wrong answer you choose you get the same result". But you are conflating judgment executed on Earth for all to see - that happens at (and 1000 years after) the appearing of Christ ---- with the PRE-ADVENT judgment in Dan 7 and Romans 2 and 2 Cor 5:10 where only those in heaven witness it.

So EVEN THOUGH (as stated before ) we are said to be in heaven seated with Christ now - in Eph 2 - that does not mean we are physically sitting there.

not sure how you are getting around these details in the Bible.

 

[tall73]

That leaves you stuck with only the saints. And Rev 20 leaves you stuck with "only the wicked" in the second resurrection.

This means that even in your own view - before any saints can be resurrected to do anything at all... to account for anything at all "in person" they must first have gone through the Dan 7 pre-advent judgment to see if they even are saints.. otherwise who is going to be resurrected at the 2nd coming - all mankind? then sort out who are saints and kill everyone else???

No, it doesn't leave that at all.

The book of life records the faithful who are His. And Jesus knows His own.

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.

Luk 10:20 Nevertheless, do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven.”

So if you take the first resurrection at Jesus' coming, and the second after the 1k years, then you have Jesus raising those who are truly His at His coming, who He already knows, and are recorded.

This is not a problem for me. Because the Scriptures spell out that Jesus knows His own.

Your own answer leaves you stuck with the same answer you claim only Ellen White could know.

Of course it doesn't. I even quoted James White who knew it before he had to come up with a reason for the delay after 1844.

Dan 7 is the pre-advent judgement as even you appear to admit.

And Dan 7:22 says it is "passed in favor of the saints" as the text says.

That text deals with the time of the inheritance of the kingdom by the saints. So that doesn't point to what you claim at all. And again, that does not show individual judgment on the saints.

Dan 7:22 until the Ancient of Days came, and judgment was given for the saints of the Most High, and the time came when the saints possessed the kingdom.

that is how there can be the "first resurrection" event of 1 Thess 4:13-18 and Rev 20:1-5 --- of just the saints.

a. It is not needed at all because Jesus knows His own and the names are written in heaven.

b. That is specifically ruled out.


1Co 4:5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.

This text says that it is at Jesus coming that he discloses the purposes of the heart and brings to light the things hidden in darkness.

Those two statements you just made are self-conflicted. Either my point is not logical so nothing for you to be "stuck in" or it is logical. When you say it leaves me stuck in the same way as you - your argument flip-flops to "it is logical". You can't have it both ways.

Actually no. You don't seem to get why it is not a problem for me.

It is not a problem for me to accept the biblical statements that Jesus knows His own and that their names are written.

And since people confess and bow the knee, and give an account, there is no question of the justice of God. So it is fine if He knows who to raise, and then they are judged.

The whole thing is not stated at all in Daniel 7. There is no picture of individual judgment there. There is listing of the deeds of powers, and the saints as a group are delivered from the powers, their adversaries. It includes non-professed believers, which because Babylon etc. were not professed believers.

So this does not present any problem for mine because I never posited this notion that the onlooking universe would need a pre-advent IJ to see God's justice. And there are plain texts that talk about God judging individuals who appear, give an account, kneel, confess etc. That will answer all questions, and will match the texts. And it matches the repeatedly seen timing of the texts relating this at Jesus' coming.

If you re-imagine the 2nd coming as a big Dan 7 judgment scene where books are opened and each person's name is brought up one by one for all observers to see and evaluate to see who is saved and who is not "by their deeds" in true Romans 2 fashion - you have a hugely long second coming event (and you include each individual in all of time - also having the time to give an account for himself at that time as well????).

There are two possibilities. All the cases are gone through. Or all those of the ones who are righteous and ressurrected and righteous, as well as those who are living at the time, followed by a later Rev. 20 judgment of the rest of the wicked.

Eitehr way I am not bothered by it taking a while. The Rev. 20 judgment obviously takes a while.

But the text says it happens at Jesus' coming. And the parable of the talents, the sheep and goats, Matthew 7 etc. all show that, and show interaction.

Truly astounding - but you can only get there by ignoring all the Bible details I have given so far.

You just admitted that is it only "the dead IN CHRIST" that are raised in 1 Thess 4:13-18 not "And also all who imagined themselves to be dead-in-christ but were not".

No Bob, all kinds of people get there without having to apply your reasoning at all. TheLiturgist mentioned it as a primary objection to your view in the other thread straight away because that is what the texts say.

Adventists are the ones who propose a pre-advent judgment is necessary to satisfy the onlooking universe, ignoring that it says that everything will be revealed AT His coming, and not to pass judgment before that.

1Co 4:5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.

Well no-doubt it had to have happened BEFORE ... but that is wayyy far from arguing it never happened.

In the Bible - even before the names of all are reviewed one by one in Dan 7 - the angels have recorded the deeds. This means that it was already known as to who never had anything to do with the gospel - not even the remotest claim, and so their names are not even added to the book of life.

Bob, you just admitted they already have the book of life too. If the angels were keeping tabs all along there is no confusion on either point. They have the list of those in the book of life. And so those being raised who are in it would not be a problem for them, no IJ needed.

That is why James' Whites prior logic was better than his later logic. And those are all verified through the individual judgments actually pictured where we bow, confess, give account etc. So there is no question of justice.

So that filter is already available just by the physical fact of how they are getting their information into the book of life. AND we ALSO have the full review of those names that did not make is - as being included in the judgment of the 1000 years as noted in Rev 2:3-5 and 1 Cor 6 -- (which apparently you have also deleted??)

No, in fact, I have not deleted it. I still lean towards it being literal. But I noted others interpret it differently than you. We will have to see which pans out.

So it appears that even with all that deleting -- you are still "stuck" once you admit that it is ONLY the "dead in Christ" that are raised in 1 Thess 4:13-18.
Which you did just admit to.

One would only be stuck using Adventist logic in the first place, which others of course don't.

We just read that the revealing of hidden things starts at His coming, and not before. And we read the names are in the book of life. And we read that Jesus knows His own sheep. And we read that people appear before the throne and give account, and kneel and bow, etc.

AND you refused so far to answer whether you admit that the second resurrection in Rev 20 is just of the wicked (which would also reveal the self-conflicted point of your argument)... interesting.

Actually I asked you a question about Rev. 20 you did not answer. But it doesn't bother my view one way or the other as to the judgment of individual cases starting at Jesus' coming whether it happens in one session or two.

 

[tall73]

Jesus' coming in 2 Pet 3 encompasses both what SDA's call the "second coming" in Rev 19 and also what everyone else calls "The second coming" where Christ reigns on Earth (that we both know is in Rev 20). That combination "reveals" to all on earth the results of the Dan 7 pre-advent judgment as well as the judgment that happens during the 1000 years in Rev 20:2-5.

you are skipping over details and it is leaving you with conflicted statements.

There is no skipping of details. There is just pointing out the obvious that you have not tried to address the plain texts talking about how judgment happens at His coming.

Whether that is in one session or two makes little difference to that point. And viewpoints vary.

So you are posting arguments/positions you don't even believe?? !!!!

I am pointing out that Adventists have Ellen White as their inspired commentary on Scripture, and others don't and actually entertain what it says and try to look at more than one viewpoint. Of course, Adventists are the only ones with the IJ viewpoint, probably because so many plain texts talk about judgment on individuals at His coming. And of course not having to come up with an explanation for 1844, the delay after, etc.

If you look at the eschatology and end-times section of CF you see a zillion different ideas - if you are going to post things you don't even believe as your "response" -- then there is a zillion lanes of misdirection you can choose from.
I don't see how that is very helpful.

Yes, there are many views in the details. But this is about a particular detail, that the revealing of secrets starts at His coming, and that various texts show in person judgment, even for professed believers, who give an account, kneel, confess, etc.

And so that would encompass a great many views. It just wouldn't encompass Ellen White' IJ which ignores those texts.

 

[tall73]

As I stated - with God destroying all the living wicked at the Rev 19 event that many SDAs call "the second coming" and with God judging and then destroying all the resurrected wicked in Rev 20 - we have all secrets of all wicked mankind revealed for all to see in those two events that are described in 2 Peter 3 as "the day" of the Lord.

2 Peter 3:

8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not willing for any to perish, but for all to come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be discovered.​

your response of "it does not matter which you choose" is effectively saying "no matter which wrong answer you choose you get the same result". But you are conflating judgment executed on Earth for all to see - that happens at (and 1000 years after) the appearing of Christ ---- with the PRE-ADVENT judgment in Dan 7 and Romans 2 and 2 Cor 5:10 where only those in heaven witness it.

You have not shown ANY evidence at all of timing of Romans 2 and 2 Cor. 5 that would put them prior to the advent. And I have shown a number of other texts that point out it is after the Advent.

Daniel 7 doesn't even picture what you talk about. So the timing would be irrelevant. But the part that mentions judgment in favor of the saints as a group is tied to timing of inheriting the kingdom, which is after the second coming.

So your timing arguments are nill.

And yeah, it doesn't matter whether it is in person immediately at Jesus' coming, or 1k years later for all of the wicked. Because it is all after His coming. You don't even dispute that all the wicked have a personal judgment date with books ,etc. where they stand before the throne. You just reject the plain texts that the same applies to believers like Paul who indicates we will stand before the throne, and give an account, the same things seen in the parable of the talents, Matthew 7, etc.

So EVEN THOUGH (as stated before ) we are said to be in heaven seated with Christ now - in Eph 2 - that does not mean we are physically sitting there.

We are in Christ. We are spiritually with Him.

That is quite a different thing that your contention that the IJ counts as giving an account, standing, appearing, kneeling, bowing, confessing. And you haven't tried to reconcile the various stories where this happens even with professed believers.

EGW, your inspired commentator, makes clear some will be busy with other things and not know when there name comes up. That rules out all the various things that are said to happen when we appear before the judgment seat. Those involve interaction.

And it is all stated to happen at Jesus coming, not before, which is ruled out.

1Co 4:5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.

 

[tall73]

As I stated - with God destroying all the living wicked at the Rev 19 event that many SDAs call "the second coming" and with God judging and then destroying all the resurrected wicked in Rev 20 - we have all secrets of all wicked mankind revealed for all to see in those two events that are described in 2 Peter 3 as "the day" of the Lord.

If the "day" of the Lord is comprised of those two events, which are after His coming, then you admit that Day of the Lord is after His coming:

Rom 2:15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them
Rom 2:16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

On that day....that fits well with:


1Co 4:5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God

 

[tall73]

A with the PRE-ADVENT judgment in Dan 7 and Romans 2 and 2 Cor 5:10 where only those in heaven witness it.

Your timing is also incorrect with 2 Corinthians 5, one of your other texts which you claim is pre-Advent.

2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.

We must all appear ἵνα, in order that.....EACH ONE MAY RECEIVE. We appear to receive what is due. That doesn't happen at the IJ.

Notice Paul also says He will receive His reward on that day from the Righteous Judge:

2Ti 4:7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.
2Ti 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on that day, and not only to me but also to all who have loved his appearing.

He here states He will appear before the Judge who will award him the prize on that day.

This combines the notions of appearing before the judge, to receive reward, and on that day. And this is regarding Paul, a believer. The timing of 2 Corinthians 5 then is not pre-advent. Because it is on that day, from the righteous judge, that we receive the reward.

This is in line with Matthew 25:

Mat 25:31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.
Mat 25:32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
Mat 25:33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left.
Mat 25:34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
Mat 25:35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me,
Mat 25:36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’
Mat 25:37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink?
Mat 25:38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you?
Mat 25:39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’
Mat 25:40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’
Mat 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Mat 25:42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’
Mat 25:44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’
Mat 25:45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’
Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

We see on a massive scale what we saw with Paul. They are before the Judge on His throne. And He gives the reward. These texts spell out what 2 Corinthians 5 says. We appear in order that we may receive. 2 Corinthians 5 has a very clear timing, and it is not pre-advent.

 

[tall73]

Act 17:30 The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent,
Act 17:31 because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead.”'

God has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by Jesus, risen from the dead.

This is also in line with

1Co 4:5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.

 

[tall73]

Romans 2 makes it clear that the future judgment is at the individual level - some passing and some failing.

You indicate that the Romans 2 judgment includes both the saved and the lost.

You claim this is a pre-advent judgment for professed believers, and later for the wicked. But the text states the timing of this judgment in Romans 2, which you see as having both saved and lost, and it is all "on that day".


Rom 2:12 For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law.
Rom 2:13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.
Rom 2:14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law.
Rom 2:15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them
Rom 2:16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

Now Bob, this says that this judgment of the secrets of men--which you indicate includes saved and lost--happens on that day.

You defined that day as the second coming and the judgment of the wicked which follows. In other words, that day does not start until Jesus comes.

The text you claim supports a pre-advent judgment says the opposite of what you claim.

Moreover, you indicate that the second coming won't involve a judgment of the records of the righteous. But you ignored the parable of the talents. You ignored Matthew 7 where they give their record but He says He did not know them and they are lawless.

Notice this text where the words of each person are weighed, and just like Romans 2 it is on the day of judgment:

Mat 12:35 The good person out of his good treasure brings forth good, and the evil person out of his evil treasure brings forth evil.
Mat 12:36 I tell you, on the day of judgment people will give account for every careless word they speak,
Mat 12:37 for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”

All give account on the day of judgment for every careless word--that sounds like your record.

Act 17:30 The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent,
Act 17:31 because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead.”'

The whole world is judged on that day.

And that is in line with

1Co 4:5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.

 

[tall73]

before any saints can be resurrected to do anything at all... to account for anything at all "in person" they must first have gone through the Dan 7 pre-advent judgment to see if they even are saints..

Daniel 7 does not at any point say that it is figuring out who they saints are.

In fact, you acknowledged that this reference to time, times, and half a time means that this section encompasses the middle ages.

Dan 7:25 He shall speak words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High, and shall think to change the times and the law; and they shall be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time.

How can it say he wears out the saints of the most high in the middle ages if they won't even be identified, per your account, until after 1844? The saints are a group identified throughout as the saints. God knows His own and always has.

The beasts are judged by the court. Their authority is stripped. And judgment is given in favor of the saints, against their adversaries, and the saints then inherit the kingdom.

There is no description of any judgment of individual cases in this section. And you don't even try to claim there is. You point to Romans 2. But Romans to does not say before the second coming, it says on that day--the day of judgment, the second coming, when God judges men. And it includes all, not just the professed people of God, as even you admitted when you said some pass, some fail.

Now Bob. if you must have an IJ to be raised, how were these raised? And how did God know they were saints?

Mat_27:52 The tombs also were opened. And many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised

And while we are talking about the middle ages, and the beast, and the saints:

Rev 13:5 And the beast was given a mouth uttering haughty and blasphemous words, and it was allowed to exercise authority for forty-two months.
Rev 13:6 It opened its mouth to utter blasphemies against God, blaspheming his name and his dwelling, that is, those who dwell in heaven.
Rev 13:7 Also it was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them. And authority was given it over every tribe and people and language and nation,
Rev 13:8 and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.

Bob, God has known from the foundation of the world who will overcome, and already has His "saints" written in the book of life before the foundation of the world.

So this notion that he needs an IJ to know who the saints are is wrong.

Joh_10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.

 

[BobRyan]

Bob, God has known from the foundation of the world who will overcome, and already has His "saints" written in the book of life before the foundation of the world.

So this notion that he needs an IJ to know who the saints are is wrong.

Note: Have been out of town for most of this week - so just now getting back to the computer.

That is an interesting statement in your post above given Ford's downfall using that very idea.

This is where Ford got all confused and turned around. He started to imagine he had ever read in any SDA official statement that "God was slowly trying to figure something out as fast as His infinite mind and foreknowledge could possibly do it - no matter how many decades it took"... which of course "was nonsense" - that was never the SDA POV, so Ford invented it (possibly he found it "useful" to do such things)

The SDA POV comes from Daniel 7 where myriads and myriads of non-God beings are in the courtroom - the "court sits and the books are opened". The entire point of the exercise was to convey detail info for each person under review given to those non-god observers as the means of "go to prepare a place for you" -- prior to the second coming. The result is "judgment passed in favor of the saints" where the process of deciding between real or "Memorex" - is as Romans 2:4-16 states it.

As you know - SDAs do not believe in OSAS - once saved always saved. This means someone who claims for giveness of sins all their life - was in fact saved during some points of that life and not saved at other points. The IJ - then makes the determination in corporate judgment of Dan 7 -- as to whether they closed their probation as saved or lost. And this happens according to the rules of Rom 2.

As you can see in Dan 7 - it is the "court" that sits with the books opened for reviewing the deeds of each person. It is not God trying to figure something out - it is the court itself. Just as in Job 1 and Job 2 -- God was not trying to "figure out if Job was righteous" - He already knew - but the entire Job 1 and 2 process was the "room" coming to understand the exact facts of the case.

Ford could have said "God did it wrong - He should have mind-zapped all the observers in Dan 7 so no time would be needed for that process" - but instead he invented that inexplicable "how long does it take God Himself to finally know something" as if that was ever a "topic" among SDAs.

This is one of the key points where I stopped taking Ford seriously.

 

[BobRyan]

How can it say he wears out the saints of the most high in the middle ages if they won't even be identified, per your account, until after 1844?

That is pretty funny. There has never been a case in all of Bible history where no saint can be persecuted until their name first comes up in Judgment and they are declared to be sealed and saved after having their 2 Cor 5:10 deeds done in the body fully evaluated.

Abel was killed in Gen 4 without any mention at all of Cain having to wait for all of Abel's life's deeds to be first evaluated.

I find this difficult to take seriously.

 

[BobRyan]

Now Bob. if you must have an IJ to be raised, how were these raised? And how did God know they were saints?

Moses appears in Matt 17 along with Elijah -- and Enoch is translated in Gen 5:24 - as all SDAs have always affirmed. But that did not delete the Dan 7 investigative judgment needed for all the saints - where the records are reviewed and all the facts are in view with the Gospel plan fully unfolded having Christ's sacrifice as an established fact of record - during that review.

Again - I find this to be somewhat of a non_serious path.

 

[tall73]

That is an interesting statement in your post above given Ford's downfall using that very idea.

This is where Ford got all confused and turned around. He started to imagine he had ever read in any SDA official statement that "God was slowly trying to figure something out as fast as His infinite mind and foreknowledge could possibly do it - no matter how many decades it took"... which of course "was nonsense" - that was never the SDA POV, so Ford invented it (possibly he found it "useful" to do such things)

I did not say that the SDA view was that God was trying to figure it out. In my various discussions on the topic I have always pointed out the judgment, per the SDA view, is for onlooking intelligences, not God.

In fact, here is a statement in the IJ thread where I stipulate that and you agree:

Adventist Investigative Judgment

However, when you make arguments like this, then I have to address it:

This means that even in your own view - before any saints can be resurrected to do anything at all... to account for anything at all "in person" they must first have gone through the Dan 7 pre-advent judgment to see if they even are saints.. otherwise who is going to be resurrected at the 2nd coming

I responded to your statement. God knows who to raise. And He doesn't have any question who the saints are. So my view doesn't require what you claim Daniel 7 is picturing, even while admitting that it doesn't picture it. Daniel 7 doesn't state anything about individual judgment on the saints. You posted two other texts to get that aspect, but their timing is after Jesus' coming.

The SDA POV comes from Daniel 7 where myriads and myriads of non-God beings are in the courtroom - the "court sits and the books are opened". The entire point of the exercise was to convey detail info for each person under review given to those non-god observers as the means of "go to prepare a place for you" -- prior to the second coming.

Yet, you can't find anywhere in the text where it is said that they are reviewing individual cases of the saints. So you had to go to two other texts to find that.

But we do find judgment on powers, some of which are not the professed followers of God, so it is not the IJ Ellen White described.

The result is "judgment passed in favor of the saints"

The saints as a group, and against the powers judged. Because the saints were the saints throughout the passage, and no doubt was expressed as to their identity.

where the process of deciding between real or "Memorex" - is as Romans 2:4-16 states it.

The Romans 2 judgment happens at that day, not pre-advent.

Rom 2:16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

You have stated that day is comprised of the second coming and the later judgment on the wicked. So by your own view, this text is not happening pre-advent.

And the onlooking universe will see people appear before the judgment seat, give account, bow the knee, confess, etc. on that day.

 

[tall73]

That is pretty funny. There has never been a case in all of Bible history where no saint can be persecuted until their name first comes up in Judgment and they are declared to be sealed and saved after having their 2 Cor 5:10 deeds done in the body fully evaluated.

I only had to make the "funny" statement because you said judgment couldn't be rendered for the saints until they knew who the saints were. They were known throughout the passage, and no doubt was expressed as to who they are.

And we agree, no saint had to wait for their case to be reviewed to be persecuted--or to be raised from the dead. Because you acknowledge where it happened previously.

Abel was killed in Gen 4 without any mention at all of Cain having to wait for all of Abel's life's deeds to be first evaluated.

I find this difficult to take seriously.

If you don't want arguments that you can't take seriously, then don't claim that the saints can't be raised without a review. Because you admit they have.

 

[tall73]

Moses appears in Matt 17 along with Elijah -- and Enoch is translated in Gen 5:24 - as all SDAs have always affirmed. But that did not delete the Dan 7 investigative judgment needed for all the saints - where the records are reviewed and all the facts are in view with the Gospel plan fully unfolded having Christ's sacrifice as an established fact of record - during that review.

Again - I find this to be somewhat of a non_serious path.

If people were raised before, as you admit, then that means God didn't require individual review before raising people.

And you have not shown where the individual records of the saints are reviewed in Daniel 7 and admitted you cannot. You had to go to other texts for that, but those texts are timed to the second coming, not the pre-advent.

All of the texts showing individual judgment, giving account, standing before the judgment seat etc. have the timing of the second coming. So you can say you cannot take my comments seriously. But you are the one pushing for this individual judgment on only the professed followers of God prior to the second coming and have not addressed how even the two texts you present which show individual judgment are timed to the second coming. And you cannot explain the text that says the Lord will judge when He comes and reveal the secrets of the heart.

Nor can you explain the texts that state that God picked a day to judge the world. You define that day as the second coming and the later judgment on the wicked. But then that doesn't include 1844 until now. Yet He says He will judge the world on that day.

You can make polemical statements about what you take seriously, but you will have to explain the timing of all the various texts indicating individiual judgment on that day, at Jesus coming, etc.