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Do you guys affirm Mr. and Mrs Whites christology/teachings also can you guys give me scripture for investigative judgement now if you guys dk wat that is basically the founders of your church core doctrine and movement is that Christ entered upon the "judgment phase" of His ministry, whereby He blots out sin. The SDA "Investigative Judgment" doctrine rests on Ellen White's claimed revelation that Christ entered the Holy of Holies not at His ascension, but in 1844 (The Great Controversy, p.362-373).
Now SDA if you don't affirm the founders of your church beliefs than its cool but if you do please prove some of the wierd beliefs they had with scripture please and thank you :)
 

BobRyan

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Do you guys affirm Mr. and Mrs Whites christology/teachings also can you guys give me scripture for investigative judgement now if you guys dk wat that is basically the founders of your church core doctrine and movement is that Christ entered upon the "judgment phase" of His ministry, whereby He blots out sin. The SDA "Investigative Judgment" doctrine rests on Ellen White's claimed revelation that Christ entered the Holy of Holies not at His ascension, but in 1844 (The Great Controversy, p.362-373).
Now SDA if you don't affirm the founders of your church beliefs than its cool but if you do please prove some of the wierd beliefs they had with scripture please and thank you :)

Good questions

Since I actually am a Seventh-day Adventist - I am glad to address the subject from an SDA POV.

The "short form":
  • Pre-advent - Judgment in heaven that happens before the 2nd coming Dan 7:26-27.
  • Investigative Dan 7:9-10 - books are opened and myriads and myriads in heaven's courtroom are observing the facts being detailed.
  • Judgment passed in favor of the saints - Dan 7:22
(Which happens some time After the 1260 years of dark ages - Dan 7:25-26)
Rom 8:1-5 Paul says that "the main point" is that Christ is our High Priest in the Sanctuary in Heaven. As Heb 9 points out, one sacrifice on the cross, one entry into God's still-fully-functional Sanctuary in heaven - where Christ is in His role as Priest and King - "seated on His throne" - at the right hand of the Father.

Zech 6:13 Yes, it is He who will build the temple of the Lord, and He who will bear the majesty and sit and rule on His throne. So He will be a priest on His throne, and the counsel of peace will be between the two offices.”’

In Dan 12 He (God the Son - Jesus Christ) "stands up" to mark the end of that work - and the beginning of vengeance to rescue the saints.

=============== more detail

The inauguration of the temple begins the service (but is not part of the daily nor a part of the Day of Atonement at the END of the year) - but Christ enters each phase of the sanctuary as He himself laid it out in the Temple. First he does the daily where the records/sins are transferred case-by-case and then the judgment phase dealing with all the records and final disposition in full view of the Dan 7 court - with each detail for each person as Romans 2:4-16 specifies.

again - the Dan 7 detail shows the relationship between WHEN the judgment is going on - and WHEN the 2nd coming happens. So also does Rev 14:6-7 show u that all the while the judgment hour is current - the Gospel is going forward.

The fact that the wicked are persecuting the saints during the time the judgment goes on, and the gospel is being preached Rev 14:6 - completely removes the idea that all of the judgment waits for the 2nd coming to begin.. Rather as Dan 7 points out - the judgment completes THEN the 2nd coming happens.

I am happy to address your questions - as to this Judgment topic (one of my most favorite topics) - it is in a number of different places in the Bible - and is sort of the "Calculus" version of Bible doctrine.

The Judgment basics that we teach are in two chapters primarily -- Dan 7 and Romans 2

Judgment in Rev 14 is seen in Rev 14:6-7 which is the first message of 3 angel's messages and Rev 14 states that these are the final warning messages given to the world before the Rev 14:14-20 second coming and destruction of the wicked. Giving the 3 Angels messages is the mission of the Adventist Church.

That judgment is part of he "everlasting Gospel"(Rev 14:6) statement in the Bible found in 2 Cor 5 and Rev 14:6-7 - pertaining to Judgment.

2 Cor 5:"10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. "

I am addressing "What is the Judgment" and "when did it start"

===============================================
https://szu.adventist.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/28_Beliefs.pdf

Christ’s Ministry in the Heavenly Sanctuary (belief #24)

There is a sanctuary in heaven, the true tabernacle that the Lord set up and not humans. In it Christ ministers on our behalf, making available to believers the benefits of His atoning sacrifice offered once for all on the cross. At His ascension, He was inaugurated as our great High Priest and, began His intercessory ministry, which was typified by the work of the high priest in the holy place of the earthly sanctuary. In 1844, at the end of the prophetic period of 2300 days, He entered the second and last phase of His atoning ministry, which was typified by the work of the high priest in the most holy place of the earthly sanctuary. It is a work of investigative judgment which is part of the ultimate disposition of all sin, typified by the cleansing of the ancient Hebrew sanctuary on the Day of Atonement. In that typical service the sanctuary was cleansed with the blood of animal sacrifices, but the heavenly things are purified with the perfect sacrifice of the blood of Jesus. The investigative judgment reveals to heavenly intelligences who among the dead are asleep in Christ and therefore, in Him, are deemed worthy to have part in the first resurrection. It also makes manifest who among the living are abiding in Christ, keeping the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, and in Him, therefore, are ready for translation into His everlasting kingdom. This judgment vindicates the justice of God in saving those who believe in Jesus. It declares that those who have remained loyal to God shall receive the kingdom. The completion of this ministry of Christ will mark the close of human probation before the Second Advent. (Lev. 16; Num. 14:34; Ezek. 4:6; Dan. 7:9-27; 8:13, 14; 9:24-27; Heb. 1:3; 2:16, 17; 4:14-16; 8:1-5; 9:11-28; 10:19-22; Rev. 8:3-5; 11:19; 14:6, 7; 20:12; 14:12; 22:11, 12.)


========================

Dan 7 shows these details - about the Post-Dark Ages, Pre-Second Coming, Judgment “out of books” (Investigative) – done in heaven

The official doctrinal statement for our denomination as quoted above shows many texts - and that one of the places Adventists get this doctrine is from Dan 7
  • 4 beasts (Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome) -- Dan 7:1-8
  • And after Rome is divided into ten , and after the 11th horn arises - a judgment scene in heaven takes place. vs 9
  • The ancient of Days (God the Father) has a throne and that throne can move (has wheels) from one place to another. vs 9
  • The Ancient of days is seated, and the court is then seated. vs 9-10
  • a judgment scene "setup in heaven" (vs 9-10)
  • where the "Son of Man" (God the Son) comes to the "Ancient of Days" (God the Father" (Vs 13)
  • in a court room of myriads and myriads of beings (vs 9-10)
  • and the "books are opened" vs 10 (Investigative)
  • and "Judgment is passed in favor of the saints" vs 22
  • - Judgment of individuals happens and passes in favor of one side and against the other side
  • And according to the chapter this happens after the fourth beast (pagan roman empire) arises (7-10)
  • And it happens after 11th horn - conquers 3 of the 10 horns (7-9)
  • and the judgment happens after the 1260 years of dark ages (times and time and 1/2 time) (vs 25-26).
  • And the dark ages does not start until after the division of 10 kings - Roman empire splits into 10 parts
  • Israel is in Babylon, Persian, Greece and Roman empires - yet persecution of the saints takes place then and now - to this very day. And persecution continues all through the judgment - until it is completed.
  • So then in Rev 13:1-10 that composite of all 4 empires continues to persecute the saints until the second coming - as Dan 7:26-27 points out.
Keys to Apocalyptic timeline interpretation are found in Dan 9

1. All Bible timelines are contiguous -- in the case of each one
2. All apocalytpic timelines use day-for-year.


BTW: The entire sanctuary service in heaven is about "answering questions" (in the presence of the "myriads and myriads" of observers in Dan 7) as to who is forgiven and who is not and "exactly why" in each case. When all has been answered - the second coming happens.
 
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BobRyan

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Judgment in heaven proceeds along the lines that Romans 2 explicitly states -

Rom 2:
2 And we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things. 3 But do you suppose this, you foolish person who passes judgment on those who practice such things, and yet does them as well, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and restraint and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will repay each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life; 8 but to those who are self-serving and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, He will give wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of mankind who does evil, for the Jew first and also for the Greek, 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who does what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.

12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the Law who will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law instinctively perform the requirements of the Law, these, though not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of mankind through Christ Jesus.

...
25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a violator of the Law, your circumcision has turned into uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will his uncircumcision not be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a violator of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from people, but from God.

The "Law written on the heart" is the Jer 31:31-34 New Covenant (as Paul reminds us in Heb 8:6-12.) And as he says in Rom 2 of that new heart "circumcision is of the heart, by the Spirit"

The individual judgment of Romans 2:4-16 that is future to Paul's day - is necessarily a part of the detail for the Dan 7 pre-advent judgment that is based on the books of records "being opened" and the court sits. Rev 20 points out that when people are judged out of books opened in heaven's court - it is deeds of each person that are judged.

Rev 20:12-13
12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them; and they were judged, each one of them according to their deeds.

As Christ said in Matt 7:

18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 So then, you will know them by their fruits.

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; leave Me, you who practice lawlessness.’

24 “Therefore, everyone who hears these words of Mine, and acts on them, will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock.​
 
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The SDA "Investigative Judgment" doctrine rests on Ellen White's claimed revelation that Christ entered the Holy of Holies not at His ascension, but in 1844 (The Great Controversy, p.362-373).

Actually it rests primarily on 3 chapters in Daniel and Romans 2. (As we already saw in this post -- May 14, 2021 #2 )

But as for divine revelation
- about 2 decades before the Seventh-day Adventist church organized - a man by the name of Hiram Edson was walking through a corn field and claimed that God showed him in vision Christ in the Sanctuary in heaven - going from its Holy Place location to its Most Holy Place (the Earthly Sanctuary explains those divisions and the function of each).

That triggered a series of Bible studies were some people began to sort out what the Bible had to say about it.

NOTE:
Using Exegesis - Bible doctrine is never established upon one single text alone - but on the full scope of texts that supply details to the topic being studied. For example: The ONE Gospel in all ages.

Heb 4:2 "The Gospel was preached to us just as it was to them also"
Gal 1:6-9 only ONE Gospel in all ages - there is only this one.
Gal 3:8 "The Gospel was preached to Abraham"
John 8:58 "Abraham saw My day"

More "details" about the one Gospel of Gal 1:6-9 - the only valid one in both OT and NT -- all these details are not already written for us in the OT -- yet they are true nonetheless​
 
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BobRyan

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2 Cor 5:10 "10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive compensation for his deeds done through the body, in accordance with what he has done, whether good or bad."

So that is ALL, and it is future to Rom 2:16 and 2 Cor 5:10, it is "the judgment seat of Christ" and it looks not just at GOOD deeds but also the reward for BAD deeds.

Rom 6:23 "the wages of sin is death"

As Christ said in Matt 7 "By their fruits you shall know them" -- Good trees produce good fruit. The born-again saints will be known by their fruit.

Rom 2:4-16 spells this out in detail

Gospel Judgment -- Gospel and the Judgment (Rom 2:16)

== saints not literally there "in person" for pre-advent Dan 7 judgment
  • Rev 14:6-7 the judgment takes place while Gospel evangelism is fully going on - for the people on Earth who are responding to the Gospel
  • Dan 7 - the judgment takes place while the saints are being persecuted.
That means there is no "stand in person" idea to be inserted in 2 Cor 5:10 - rather the case of that person is being brought up
  • while saints are being persecuted on Earth Dan 7:25-26
  • and while the Gospel is being preached on Earth Rev 14:6-7
  • and before the 2nd coming (not at the second coming) - Dan 7:24-27.
The same sort of "not literally present in person" discussion for the saints is given in Eph 2:5

Saints seated in heaven with Christ all this time -- Eph 2: 5 "even when we were dead in our wrongdoings, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus", ... not yet "in person".. for now the saints are persecuted.

NOTE: Here we have a non-SDA agreeing on that one detail above from Eph 2
Yes, we are spiritually with Christ.

==========

Dan 7 says that when the judgment completes the 2nd coming happens.
25 He shall speak pompous words against the Most High,
Shall persecute the saints of the Most High,
And shall intend to change times and law.
Then the saints shall be given into his hand
For a time and times and half a time
.


26 ‘But the court shall be seated,
And they shall take away his dominion
,
To consume and destroy it forever.
27 Then the kingdom and dominion,
And the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven,
Shall be given to the people, the saints
of the Most High.
His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom,
And all dominions shall serve and obey Him.
 
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tall73

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Pre-advent - Judgment in heaven that happens before the 2nd coming Dan 7:26-27.

The judgment of professed believers in God happens in person, not in absentia as the Seventh-day Adventist teaching indicates.

2 TIMOTHY 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom

The judgment is before Christ, at His appearing.

Rom 14:10 Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God;

Rom 14:11 for it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.”
Rom 14:12 So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.

We stand before the judgment seat
We bow
We confess
We give an account.

You cannot stand, bow, confess or give an account if you are not present.

1Co 4:5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.


Jesus discloses the purposes of the heart when He comes.
 
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tall73

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From the Seventh-day Adventist belief statement:

In 1844, at the end of the prophetic period of 2300 days, He entered the second and last phase of His atoning ministry, which was typified by the work of the high priest in the most holy place of the earthly sanctuary. It is a work of investigative judgment which is part of the ultimate disposition of all sin, typified by the cleansing of the ancient Hebrew sanctuary on the Day of Atonement. In that typical service the sanctuary was cleansed with the blood of animal sacrifices, but the heavenly things are purified with the perfect sacrifice of the blood of Jesus.

Here is what the high priest did in the sanctuary on the Day of Atonement:



Lev 16:15 “Then he shall kill the goat of the sin offering that is for the people and bring its blood inside the veil and do with its blood as he did with the blood of the bull, sprinkling it over the mercy seat and in front of the mercy seat.
Lev 16:16 Thus he shall make atonement for the Holy Place, because of the uncleannesses of the people of Israel and because of their transgressions, all their sins. And so he shall do for the tent of meeting, which dwells with them in the midst of their uncleannesses.

Jesus already did that with His entry into God's presence on our behalf in the first century. He died, entered, and presented Himself the completed sacrifice. He now ministers the benefits of that sacrifice for all who trust in Him.

Heb 9:22 Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.
Heb 9:23 Thus it is a necessity for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Heb 9:24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.

 
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Leviticus shows that the activity of the high priest in the sanctuary on the Day of Atonement is an application of blood to atone for the sins of the people, and cleanse the sanctuary.

Lev 16:15 “Then he shall kill the goat of the sin offering that is for the people and bring its blood inside the veil and do with its blood as he did with the blood of the bull, sprinkling it over the mercy seat and in front of the mercy seat.
Lev 16:16 Thus he shall make atonement for the Holy Place, because of the uncleannesses of the people of Israel and because of their transgressions, all their sins. And so he shall do for the tent of meeting, which dwells with them in the midst of their uncleannesses.


Adventists have changed the type. Instead of a provision of blood for all their sins, Adventists have posited that the high priest is reviewing individual cases from books. But as can be seen above, it was not books that were pictured, but an application of cleansing blood.


booksbloodcheck.PNG
 
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Do you guys affirm Mr. and Mrs Whites christology/teachings also can you guys give me scripture for investigative judgement now if you guys dk wat that is basically the founders of your church core doctrine and movement is that Christ entered upon the "judgment phase" of His ministry, whereby He blots out sin. The SDA "Investigative Judgment" doctrine rests on Ellen White's claimed revelation that Christ entered the Holy of Holies not at His ascension, but in 1844 (The Great Controversy, p.362-373).

The notion of an investigative judgment was not immediately held even by those who came to believe that Jesus entered the Most Holy Place in 1844.

They initially thought Jesus' stay in the MHP would be brief. Some began to propose that there would be an investigation of all cases prior to the resurrection of the righteous. But this took a while to be accepted. In fact, here is a statement in which James White was rejecting this notion some time after the disappointment. He notes that some others proposed the idea, but does not agree with it.

James White's and Joseph Bates' writings in book: 'A Word to the Little Flock'

It is not necessary that the final sentence should be given before the first resurrection, as some have taught; for the names of the saints are written in heaven, and Jesus, and the angels will certainly know who to raise, and gather to the New Jerusalem.
 
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tall73

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Actually it rests primarily on 3 chapters in Daniel and Romans 2.

But as for divine revelation
- about 2 decades before the Seventh-day Adventist church organized - a man by the name of Hiram Edson was walking through a corn field and claimed that God showed him in vision Christ in the Sanctuary in heaven - going form its Holy Place location to its Most Holy Place (the Earthly Sanctuary explains those divisions and the function of each).

That triggered a series of Bible studies were some people began to sort out what the Bible had to say about it.

To flesh this out a bit:

As to the history, the notion of 1844 as a date did start with Miller's preaching, originally regarding Jesus' return around the year 1843. Miller had a number of proofs in this regard. One of those dealt with the 2,300 days of Daniel. Eventually they realized there was an error in calculation that led them to then look to 1844 (there is no zero year when passing from 1 BC to 1 AD, so date calculations were off a bit).

It was not Miller, but other figures who eventually settled on the date of Oct. 22, 1844 as the date for the second coming, as they thought it was the Day of Atonement that year. This "7-month movement" is usually attributed to two men, Snow and Storrs. Miller was reluctant at first, but eventually got on board.

Also, Miller thought the sanctuary would be cleansed in 1843/44, but thought that the earth was the sanctuary. This we know from Hebrews is not true, but he apparently missed that. He thought it would be cleansed with fire at Jesus' second coming. This then set the stage for those who became the Seventh-day Adventist Church to see a different meaning to the cleansing of the sanctuary in 1844.

You can read Miller's account of it all after the fact here:

http://centrowhite.org.br/files/ebooks/apl/all/Miller/William Miller's Apology and Defence, August 1.pdf

As Bob notes, the idea of Jesus entering the Most Holy Place phase of ministry is usually accredited to Hiram Edson, who was crossing a cornfield the day after the great disappointment when he had this insight/vision. You can read about it here:

Adventist Review: October Morn

Later Crozier, etc. spelled out some aspects of this in a paper of the time. Ellen White endorsed that view of the paper.

Here is a quote where Ellen White refers to a vision which verified the position of Crosier. She notes the Day Star extra article.

A Word to the Little Flock

I believe the Sanctuary, to be cleansed at the end of the 2300 days, is the New Jerusalem Temple, of which Christ is a minister. The Lord shew me in vision, more than one year ago, that Brother Crosier had the true light, on the cleansing of the Sanctuary, &c; and that it was his will, that Brother C. should write out the view which he gave us in the Day-Star, Extra, February 7, 1846. I feel fully authorized by the Lord, to recommend that Extra, to every saint.

SDA defend hosts a copy of the Day Star Extra if you wish to read it.

http://www.sdadefend.com/Our Firm Foundation/Crosier-sanctuary.pdf

The aspect of the investigative judgment developed some time after that.
 
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Many who are not in the Seventh-day Adventist church also do not realize how controversial this doctrine has been within the church throughout its history.

Many prominent ministers and theologians have rejected the doctrine, including Crozier who originally formulated part of it as I related earlier.

Canright, Ballenger, Conradi, Waggoner, Grieve, Fletcher, Prescott, Cottrell, and many others took issue with it. Here is what a prominent Adventist theologian said about the issue:

If my experience as a teacher in the Seminary may be taken as a criterion, I would say that a large number of our ministers have serious doubt as to the correctness of the views we hold on certain phases of the sanctuary. They believe, in a general way, that we are correct, but they are as fully assured that Ballenger's views have never been fully met and that we cannot meet them. Not wishing to make the matter an issue, they simply decide that the question is not vital - and thus the whole subject of the sanctuary is relegated, in their minds at least, to the background. This is not a wholesome situation. If the subject is as vital as we have thought and taught it to be, it is not of secondary importance. Today, in the minds of a considerable part of the ministry, as far as my experience in the Seminary is concerned, it has little vital bearing, either in their lives or theology. I dread to see the day when our enemies will make capital of our weakness. I dread still more to see the day when our ministry will begin to raise questions. M. L. Andreason letter, 1942.

He refers to Ballenger. Albion Ballenger was an Adventist minister. He began to take issue with aspects of the sanctuary doctrine. He wrote to Ellen white with the hopes that she would show him in the Scriptures where his view was wrong. Here are a couple of quotes from that letter.

What I am pleading for in this letter, is, that if there be a 'thus saith the Lord' to support your statement, that, out of compassion for my soul you furnish it.

And a bit later:

And now Sister White, what can I do? If I accept the testimony of the Scriptures, if I follow my conscientious convictions, I find myself under your condemnation; and you call me a wolf in sheep's clothing, and warn my brethren and the members of my family against me. But when I turn in my sorrow to the Word of the Lord, that Word reads the same, and I fear to reject God's interpretation and accept yours. Oh that I might accept both. But if I must accept but one, hadn't I better accept the Lord's? If I reject his word and accept yours, can you save me in the judgment?

Ellen White did not furnish the "thus saith the Lord" that Ballenger was asking for. However, she did tell people not to listen to Ballenger's views.

We are not to receive the words of those who come with a message that contradicts the special points of our faith. They gather together a mass of Scripture, and pile it as proof around their asserted theories. This has been done over and over again during the past fifty years. And while the Scriptures are God's word, and are to be respected, the application of them, if such application moves one pillar from the foundation that God has sustained these fifty years, is a great mistake. He who makes such an application knows not the wonderful demonstration of the Holy Spirit that gave power and force to the past messages that have come to the people of God. {1SM 161.2}

She indicates that the experience of the Adventists for the past 50 years shows that their interpretation is correct, and therefore even scriptural arguments to the contrary are not to be entertained when people in the Advent movement express them.


While she did not correct Ballenger's views, she did say this:

I testify in the name of the Lord that Elder Ballenger is led by satanic agencies and spiritualistic, invisible leaders. Those who have the guidance of the Holy Spirit will turn away from these seducing spirits.—Manuscript 59, 1905. (“The Sabbath Truth in the Sentinel, and Elder Ballenger's Views,” May 20, 1905.)



Questions continued to be raised. Here is a quote from Cottrell, an Adventist scholar who worked on the Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary, among other projects. This is from Spectrum Magazine, April, 1980. He was particularly asking about the idea that the Day of Atonement cleansing is referred to in Daniel 8:14, which is key to the Adventist sanctuary doctrine.

While editing Bible Readings, and in counsel with Elder Nichol as chief editor of the revision, I wrote to 27 leading Adventist Bible scholars for their response to a series of six carefully formulated questions designed to bring the best contemporary Adventist biblical scholarship to bear on the question. All 27 responded, many at considerable length. A careful analysis and synthesis of their replies provided no additional help with respect to the problems arising from our interpretation of Daniel 8:14, and made evident that we had no satisfactory answer to the criticisms being directed against our interpretation of this key Adventist passage. Thirteen replied that they knew of no other valid basis for making such an application; seven based it on analogy; five, on the authority of Ellen White; two, on what they referred to as a "fortunate accident" in translation. Not one of the 27 believed that there was a linguistic or contextual basis for applying Daniel 8:14 to the heavenly sanctuary, an antitypical day of atonement, or 1844.


The GC then set up the secret 5 year Problems in Daniel Committee which was split in their views and never released minutes or a report. This was disclosed at the Glacier View session (more on that below) by Elder Wilson (General Conference President), and then published in the Ministry Magazine special, October, 1980.

The most prominent questioning of the doctrine was by Dr. Desmond Ford, who was head of the theology department at Avondale College, and a lecturer at Pacific Union College, who served for a number of years on the Adventist Biblical Research Committee, which is the denomination's theological committee. He noted the various ministers in the past who questioned aspects of the doctrine, and raised questions which resulted in the denomination holding a gathering at Glacier View Ranch to look into the issue.

After Glacier View Dr. Ford had his ministerial credentials removed. This records the view of one of the people in the meeting with Dr. Ford and General Conference President Wilson:

Events since Glacier View

The discussion turned to the matter of "new light" and the counsel of the Lord that such light will not contradict or negate light already given. The idea was set forth that one must submit "new light" to brethren of experience and then yield to their judgment, for there is safety in a multitude of counselors. Pastor Wilson commented that Dr. Ford did not appear really to accept this philosophy, that he required evidence before changing an opinion, and has set up his own criteria of what is acceptable evidence--criteria that exclude the writings of Ellen G. White as being doctrinally authoritative.


And a bit later:

The discussion turned to the matter of Ellen G. White and her role in doctrinal and theological matters. Her authority, in relation to Scripture, and the question of whether she could be considered a reliable, inspired commentary of Scripture was examined. In this area Dr. Ford set forth his viewpoint, and indicated that he cannot agree with what the church holds in this matter. Both Pastors Wilson and Bock pleaded with him to look again at the issues, but he indicated that to change his views without evidence would be to deny his conscience.

Ford wanted Bible evidence before changing his views, and could not accept Ellen White's statements as having doctrinal authority.

In Raymond Cottrell's Sanctuary Doctrine—Asset or liability. He reviews the history of a number Adventists who questioned the sanctuary doctrine, including the case of Ford. This is just a few selections:

The traditional interpretation of Daniel 8:14 with its sanctuary and investigative judgment, which gave birth to Seventh-day Adventism and accounts for its existence as a distinct entity within Christendom, has been the object of more criticism and debate, by both Adventists and non-Adventists, than all other facets of its belief system combined. The same is true with respect to church discipline on doctrinal grounds, defections from the church, and the diversion of time, attention, and resources from Adventism's perceived mission to the world.

Twenty-five years later W. W. Prescott (a member of the GC ad hoc committees appointed to meet with the dissidents) commented in a letter to W. A. Spicer, then president of the General Conference: "I have waited all these years for someone to make an adequate answer to Ballenger, Fletcher and others on their positions re. the sanctuary but I have not seen or heard it."

In August 1980 115 leading administrators and Bible scholars from around the world (at an administrator's estimated cost of a quarter of a million dollars) were summoned to Glacier View in Colorado, to serve as the Sanctuary Review Committee. They were specifically instructed not to evaluate Ford's beliefs with respect to Daniel 8:14, the sanctuary, and the investigative judgment by the Bible itself, but as set forth in the statement of Twenty-seven Fundamental Beliefs, which the church had already determined to be normative. Several weeks later the Australasian Division withdrew his ministerial credentials.

As a matter of fact, the consensus report voted at the close of the week-long conference tacitly agreed with Ford on six major points of exegesis. Later, some forty Bible scholars signed a document known as the Atlanta Affirmation, remonstrating with Neal Wilson for the way the church had treated Ford at, and after, Glacier View.

We could wish that such encounters with the sanctuary doctrine were a thing of the past. But a new generation of victims is repeating their traumatic experiences all over again. If the past is any index to the future they will be repeated indefinitely unless and until the church faces up to the facts objectively and deals realistically and responsibly with them in harmony with the sola Scriptura principle. It is said that more than 150 ordained ministers, mostly in Australia, forfeited their ministerial credentials in the aftermath of the Ford affair. Hundreds of lay persons, mostly in the United States, left the church and formed effervescent "fellowships" as a result.



There have been a number leave the denomination since as Cottrell alludes to

Ford had been an influential figure in Adventism, especially in Australia where he taught ministers for many years. In the aftermath of his removal a large number of ministers in Australia and New Zealand resigned over the next decade.

This study looks in depth at the departure of ministers in Australia and New Zealand over the ten year period after the Ford crisis.

http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&...lis&f=false

In the course of my research I compiled a list of 182 ministers who left the Adventist ministry between 1980 and 1988. This figure is equivalent to an astonishing 40 percent of the total ministerial work force in Australia and New Zealand--a statistic without presidence in the Adventist Church at any other time or in any other place.


He interviewed as many as possible. A few left for reasons other than theology or the handling of Ford's case, but the great majority left due to these reasons.

Pastors have also resigned in other parts of the world, and still do. Because Adventists are required to adhere to the 28 fundamental beliefs they did not feel they could continue to belong to the church. However, some ministers do continue to pastor while admitting privately that they do not agree with the Sanctuary teaching, and I knew some of these as well.

In some more liberal congregations Ellen White and the sanctuary teaching are often downplayed.
 
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tall73

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In the 1950's cult researcher Walter Martin worked with Donald Barnhouse at Eternity Magazine, and engaged in discussions with Seventh-day Adventist leadership. Martin and others had previously classified Adventists as a cult. However, after dialogue with church leaders both Martin and Barnhouse came to accept that Adventists were not a cult. However, they did not think too highly of the Adventist sanctuary doctrine. Barnhouse's expresses an opinion that is held by a number of non-Adventists:

https://www.trsc.today/php/Articles/Eternity Magaine Articles-Barnhouse & Martin 1957-marked.pdf

In their disappointment little segments of these disillusioned people drew together. One of the segments kept Saturday as the Sabbath. Still another of the segments believed in conditional immortality and soulsleeping, and a third segment fell upon the doctrine of "the investigative judgment." The latter doctrine, to me, is the most colossal, psychological, face-saving phenomenon in religious history!
 
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BobRyan

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In the 1950's cult researcher Walter Martin worked with Donald Barnhouse at Eternity Magazine, and engaged in discussions with Seventh-day Adventist leadership. Martin and others had previously classified Adventists as a cult. However, after dialogue with church leaders both Martin and Barnhouse came to accept that Adventists were not a cult. However, they did not think too highly of the Adventist sanctuary doctrine. Barnhouse's expresses an opinion that is held by a number of non-Adventists:

https://www.trsc.today/php/Articles/Eternity Magaine Articles-Barnhouse & Martin 1957-marked.pdf

In their disappointment little segments of these disillusioned people drew together. One of the segments kept Saturday as the Sabbath. Still another of the segments believed in conditional immortality and soulsleeping, and a third segment fell upon the doctrine of "the investigative judgment." The latter doctrine, to me, is the most colossal, psychological, face-saving phenomenon in religious history!

In the OP of one of your threads on this topic you point out that it is a distinctive doctrine for Seventh-day Adventists (which is true). As such there must always be at least one aspect of it that is not held in common with non-SDA denominations, "by definition" of the concept "distinctive doctrine".

That is a given.

The thread is from a non-SDA to SDAs asking about this unique teaching - which gets my interest because it is unclear as to how many of the details are known to him/her on this topic.

While it is true that we can find many non-SDA sources who do not agree with 100% of everything Adventists point out in the Bible related to the future judgment - still a lot of them do have at least some teaching on the subject of future judgment. So it will be interesting to see how the author of this thread responds to the details I and other SDAs have given in these posts
 
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BobRyan

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Martin and others had previously classified Adventists as a cult.

I am curious as to how you know that Martin ever classified the SDA denomination as a cult. He says he included SDAs in Kingdom of The Cults (in the appendix not in the main body of the book ) - to refute Anthony Hoekema's prior book about SDAs that made the cult accusation against the Adventist denomination. But I don't find where Martin says he ever taught the view that the Seventh-day Adventist denomination is a cult.

In his chapter on SDAs Martin has this on the first page

- "Since the opposing view (that claims SDA is a cult) has had wide circulation over a long period of time, I felt it was necessary to include here Seventh-day Adventism as a proper counter balance -- presenting the other side of Adventism and representing the theology of Adventism as Adventists themselves believe it and NOT as many critics have caricatured it" (Kingdom of the Cults: Appendix Section - "The Puzzle of Seventh-day Adventism" pg 409)
Martin said "It is necessary for me to take exception with Dr. Hoekema in this area because, in my opinion, the reasons which Dr. Hoekema gives cannot be justified by the Word of God, historical theology, or present-day practices in denominational Christianity as a whole". ibid 435
 
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tall73

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The SDA "Investigative Judgment" doctrine rests on Ellen White's claimed revelation that Christ entered the Holy of Holies not at His ascension, but in 1844 (The Great Controversy, p.362-373).

What Bob didn't tell you is that Ellen White endorsed Miller's message after the fact.

William Miller, who started the Millerite movement, preached that Jesus' second coming would occur around 1843. He had a number of proofs to demonstrate this.

Jesus did not return to earth in 1843. Those who had given the message and those who had accepted it were disappointed. They were convinced their calculations were correct, and after reviewing the year was revised to 1844 after it was noted that their calculations had failed to consider that there is no zero year. Calculations go from 1BC to 1 AD.

Jesus did not come in 1844 either during the spring when they initially expected Him. Others in the movement (not Miller) settled on a specific date of Oct. 22, 1844 for the date of Jesus return, to coincide with their calculations for the Day of Atonement on that date.

That date also passed, and the group were again disappointed.

Miller later, while upholding the Bible as God's word, and still expecting Jesus to return to earth soon, admitted that their message had not been accurate in regards to the timing of Jesus' return to earth. He reminded them that he never claimed to be inspired. Rather he was sharing his understanding of prophecy and thought God had wanted him to do so.

And this probably would have been the end of it, except that some continued to see significance to 1844.

Ellen White, years after the fact, indicated that the proclamation of Miller's message was of God. In other words, Ellen White indicated Miller was inspired to give the message that he did, that Jesus was returning around 1843, and later 1844.

Below I quote from a number of places where Ellen White endorses Miller's message. Because of copyright I am not able to post whole chapters and such. And so some will say I am taking her out of context, etc. But anyone can access the entire context by looking at "Early Writings" here:

Early Writings, by Ellen G. White. Table of Contents

I saw that God was in the proclamation of the time in 1843. It was His design to arouse the people and bring them to a testing point, where they should decide for or against the truth.

Angels of God accompanied William Miller in his mission. He was firm and undaunted, fearlessly proclaiming the message committed to his trust.

The saints anxiously waited for their Lord with fasting, watching, and almost constant prayer. Even some sinners looked forward to the time with terror; but the great mass manifested the spirit of Satan in their opposition to the message. They mocked and scoffed, repeating everywhere, "No man knoweth the day nor the hour." Evil angels urged them on to harden their hearts and to reject every ray of light from heaven, that they might be fastened in the snare of Satan. Many who professed to be looking for Christ had no part in the work of the message.

Thousands were led to embrace the truth preached by William Miller, and servants of God were raised up in the spirit and power of Elijah to proclaim the message.

Ministers who would not accept this saving message themselves hindered those who would have received it.

Preachers and people joined to oppose this message from heaven and to persecute William Miller and those who united with him in the work.

Angels of God accompanied William Miller in his mission. He was firm and undaunted, fearlessly proclaiming the message committed to his trust.


Speaking of the initial date of 1843:

I saw the people of God joyful in expectation, looking for their Lord. But God designed to prove them. His hand covered a mistake in the reckoning of the prophetic periods. Those who were looking for their Lord did not discover this mistake, and the most learned men who opposed the time also failed to see it. God designed that His people should meet with a disappointment.

Those who had neglected to receive the heavenly message were left in darkness, and God's anger was kindled against them, because they would not receive the light which He had sent them from heaven.

Satan and his angels triumphed over them, and those who would not receive the message congratulated themselves upon their farseeing judgment and wisdom in not receiving the delusion, as they called it. They did not realize that they were rejecting the counsel of God against themselves, and were working in union with Satan and his angels to perplex God's people,who were living out the heaven-sent message.


Notice that in the quotes above she condemns those who did not receive Miller's message that Jesus was coming in 1843, and later 1844. She indicates Miller's message of Jesus coming in 1843 was a heaven-sent message. And she condemns those who rejected it--even though it goes completely against what the Scriptures say about date setting. And despite the event not coming to pass.

To give historical context, here are a few selections from ministers who wrote against Miller at the time.

Pastor Dowling, An Exposition of the Prophecies Supposed by William Miller to Predict the Second Coming of Christ in 1843

I have frequently been asked if I believe Mr. Miller to be sincere. I have invariably answered in the affirmative. I cannot but suppose that Mr. M. is a pious, well-meaning man. I would advise him, in conclusion, if he would escape the distress I know it would cause him in his old age to have been unintentionally instrumental in the spread of infidelity, to go home and preach Christ crucified to perishing sinners, which I have no doubt he is qualified to do, and to waste no more of a life which might be valuable if rightly spent, in vainly attempting to make known those times and seasons which God hath wisely concealed from the ken of mortals, and "put into His own power."


Unnamed person who wrote the article, Miller Overthrown

Whether he has been first himself deceived, or whether he is wittingly practising a pious fraud, is known to the Searcher of hearts. I have but to point out sundry errors and weak places in his book; sufficient, however to destroy his credibility, but not to prove that the end of the word is distant; for "of that day knoweth no man"; and we are told that it is even hidden from the angels. If a man were to prophesy that, on a certain day during the next year, Washington city would be destroyed by an earthquake, who could positively declare the contrary? I pretend not to know that the world will survive the year 1843; but I think that Mr. William Miller knows as little about it as I do.

The Almighty has wisely hidden that day from us. Let the man who would rashly essay to raise the veil, ponder well upon the responsibility he assumes.

If Miller's calculations are correct, it is very evident that he is wiser than the angels, the prophets, the apostles, and the saints. It was an angel who was commanded to make Daniel understand the vision. Now, if that angel showed the prophet that the world would be destroyed in 2300 years, then is it not true, as Christ declared, that "of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father."
We are also informed that, "In such an hour as you think not, the Son of man cometh;" which will not be the case with the Millerites, if his prediction shall be fulfilled.



They referenced the scriptures against time setting as the reason for their rejecting the message, and rightly so. The scriptures are clear that we should not set dates as Jesus' return will be at an hour we think not.


Matthew 24:4 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Matt 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

I Thessalonians 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.


But Ellen White condemned those who correctly applied these Scriptures:

Many shepherds of the flock, who professed to love Jesus, said that they had no opposition to the preaching of Christ's coming, but they objected to the definite time. God's all-seeing eye read their hearts. They did not love Jesus near. They knew that their unchristian lives would not stand the test, for they were not walking in the humble path marked out by Him. These false shepherds stood in the way of the work of God. The truth spoken in its convincing power aroused the people, and like the jailer, they began to inquire, "What must I do to be saved?" But these shepherds stepped in between the truth and the people, and preached smooth things to lead them from the truth. They united with Satan and his angels, crying, "Peace, peace," when there was no peace.


Those who loved their ease and were content with their distance from God would not be aroused from their carnal security. I saw that angels of God marked it all; the garments of those unconsecrated shepherds were covered with the blood of souls. {EW 233.2}

Ministers who would not accept this saving message themselves hindered those who would have received it. The blood of souls is upon them.

So according to Ellen White the ministers who warned against Miller's date setting were condemned--for standing on the words of Jesus. But those who believed Millers false message were doing what God wanted.
 
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BobRyan

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The judgment of professed believers in God happens in person, not in absentia as the Seventh-day Adventist teaching indicates.
.

I addressed that here in my prior post

2 Cor 5:10 "10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive compensation for his deeds done through the body, in accordance with what he has done, whether good or bad."

So that is ALL, and it is future to Rom 2:16 and 2 Cor 5:10, it is "the judgment seat of Christ" and it looks not just at GOOD deeds but also the reward for BAD deeds.

Rom 6:23 "the wages of sin is death"

As Christ said in Matt 7 "By their fruits you shall know them" -- Good trees produce good fruit. The born-again saints will be known by their fruit.

Rom 2:4-16 spells this out in detail

Gospel Judgment -- Gospel and the Judgment (Rom 2:16)

  • Rev 14:6-7 the judgment takes place while Gospel evangelism is fully going on - for the people on Earth who are responding to the Gospel

  • Dan 7:24-26 - the judgment takes place while the saints are being persecuted.
That means there is no "stand in person" in 2 Cor 5:10 - rather the case of that person is being brought up -- while saints are being persecuted on Earth.

Saints seated in heaven with Christ all this time -- Eph 2: 5 "even when we were dead in our wrongdoings, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus", ... not yet "in person".. for now the saints are persecuted.

==========

Dan 7 says that when the judgment completes the 2nd coming happens.

25 He shall speak pompous words against the Most High,
Shall persecute the saints of the Most High,
And shall intend to change times and law.
Then the saints shall be given into his hand
For a time and times and half a time
.


26 ‘But the court shall be seated,
And they shall take away his dominion
,
To consume and destroy it forever.
27 Then the kingdom and dominion,
And the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven,
Shall be given to the people, the saints
of the Most High.
His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom,
And all dominions shall serve and obey Him.

Where I include this near the end of that post

Saints seated in heaven with Christ all this time -- Eph 2: 5 "even when we were dead in our wrongdoings, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus", ... not yet "in person".. for now the saints are persecuted.

Obviously we are all not personally physically in heaven at the moment -

The judgment has several phases

1. Judgement as Investigation out of the books that includes the saints Dan 7:9-10 such that "Judgment is passed in favor of the saints" Dan 7:22 and and the wicked continue to persecute the saints until that judgment completed Dan 7:25-26. At the same time the "everlasting gospel" is still being proclaimed while that judgment is ongoing - Rev 14:6-7. So this makes it certain we are in the same scenario as in Eph 2:5-6 for judgment that completes before the second coming Dan 7:25-28.

2. Judgment in the form of execution of the living wicked at the second coming (in Rev 19) and then the execution of all the wicked of all of time in Rev 20 at the end of the chapter - at the end of the 1000 years.

Your post simply takes any reference at all to judgment - without respect to which of these the text is addressing.
 
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tall73

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I am curious as to how you know that Martin ever classified the SDA denomination as a cult.

Martin had already written material for his earlier book rise of the cults but changed his mind after Froom reached out to him and dialogue began.


Evangelical Inconsistency

At the very time our intensive study with those leaders began, the Zondervan Publishing House of Grand Rapids, Michigan, was bringing out a new book by Walter Martin, The Rise of the Cults. In this volume a number of different religious groups were examined briefly, all of whom were classified as cults. Theosophy, Christian Science, Unity, and Latter-day Saints were among those examined. In his original manuscript the author had a chapter on Seventh-day Adventists, but when he discovered firsthand what Adventists really believe, he recognized that what he had written previously was not in harmony with fact. So he and the publishers withdrew that chapter, inserting another in its place. The design in the paper jacket was also altered, another group replacing the position reserved for Adventists.
 
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BobRyan

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So according to Ellen White the ministers who warned against Miller's date setting were condemned--for standing on the words of Jesus. But those who believed Millers false message were doing what God wanted.

What Tall73 did not include is that John the Baptizer's message was also fully "of God" even though it was not until near the end of his life that he realized that Christ would NOT be coming in, taking names, getting rid of the bad guys in Israel and setting up His kingdom on Earth.

Luke 3
7 So he (John the baptizer) was saying to the crowds who were going out to be baptized by him, “You offspring of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 Therefore produce fruits that are consistent with repentance, and do not start saying to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father,’ for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up children for Abraham. 9 But indeed the axe is already being laid at the root of the trees; so every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.”
10 And the crowds were questioning him, saying, “Then what are we to do?”


John's father gives this inspired message in Luke 1
67 And his father Zechariah was filled with the Holy Spirit and prophesied, saying:
68 “Blessed be the Lord God of Israel,
For He has visited us and accomplished redemption for His people,
69 And has raised up a horn of salvation for us
In the house of His servant David—
70 Just as He spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient times—
71 Salvation from our enemies,
And from the hand of all who hate us;

72 To show mercy to our fathers,
And to remember His holy covenant,
73 The oath which He swore to our father Abraham,
74 To grant us that we, being rescued from the hand of our enemies,
Would serve Him without fear,

75 In holiness and righteousness before Him all our days.


Even the disciples were not being recruited into being followers of Jesus as the Messiah under the message "I will be condemned as a criminal and crucified - come and follow Me as the true Messiah".

Today - having the whole story - the entire picture ... is helpful indeed.
 
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Martin had already written material for his earlier book rise of the cults

Martin writes this in the Seventh-day Adventist chapter of "Kingdom of the Cults" -- about his prior book regarding Adventism

"In a volume such as this dealing with the problem of non-Christian cults, the question might logically be asked, 'Why include Seventh-day Adventism, especially since the writer has classified them in a full-length volume as a Christian denomination?' " (pg 409)
 
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