Question for Seventh Day Adventist

[tall73]

tall73: This is not pre-advent.

2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.

Yes it is because only those in the 2nd resurrection of Rev 20 (the wicked) appear at the great white throne judgement of Rev 20 - according to Rev 20.

Bob, Paul is not of the wicked. And he says "we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ SO THAT each one may receive what is due.

And Paul spells out when he receives it:

2Ti 4:7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.
2Ti 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on that day, and not only to me but also to all who have loved his appearing.

That day that Paul receives his reward is at the second coming.

 

[tall73]

A good example of my showing how Romans 2 and Dan 7 point to the future judgment (future to Paul's day) that is before the 2nd coming and deals specifically with individual cases - resulting in "judgment passed in favor of the saints"

It is the day of future judgment (And Dan 7 point to judgment future to Paul's day and before the 2nd coming) -- so then not the day of the appearing of Christ according to Rom 2:16

Rom 2:16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

So now you define "that day" as 1844 until the great white throne judgment?

Because that doesn't match any of the texts.

 

[tall73]

The judgment that ends with the result "judgement passed in favor of the saints" is before the second coming.

And deals with the beast powers, and judgment is given to the saints as a group. Which is why you admit you can't find individual judgment referenced there.

But where you do find in, Romans 2, refers to a day of judgment, and even you say that is the second coming, 1k years and great white throne.

this text shows that you and I both must accept "At the day of the Lord" as encompassing the second coming, the millennium AND the great white throne judgment - lake of fire.

The only place you can find individual judgment refers to the second coming, not pre-advent.

 

[BobRyan]

Rom 2:16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

So now you define "that day" as 1844 until the great white throne judgment?

Because that doesn't match any of the texts.

"That day WHEN according to my gospel GOD WILL JUDGE" not just the snip "That day"

 

[BobRyan]

The only place you can find individual judgment refers to the second coming, not pre-advent.

Not true of Rom 2...not true of 2 Cor 5:10 and not true of Dan 7.

See this post for details...

"Judgment passed in favor of the saints" Dan 7:22 - posted to you dozens of times on this thread

22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom. (So that is clearly pre-advent judgment out of books)

Senquenced... and in that order.

"judgment out of the books of record" with deeds of each one of those being judged in record.
9 “I kept looking
Until thrones were set up,
And the Ancient of Days took His seat;
His garment was white as snow,
And the hair of His head like pure wool.
His throne was ablaze with flames,
Its wheels were a burning fire.
10 A river of fire was flowing
And coming out from before Him;
Thousands upon thousands were serving Him,
And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him;
The court convened,
And the books were opened.

Each of person - individual deeds -
2 Cor 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive compensation for his deeds done through the body, in accordance with what he has done, whether good or bad.

Judgment "out of the books" is judgment of the deeds of each person recorded there.
Rev 20
12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.

In all cases - judgment out of the books that are opened - is a judgment of each individual recorded there according to individual deeds - good OR bad.

this is irrefutable.

Rom 2:3 But do you suppose this, you foolish person who passes judgment on those who practice such things, and yet does them as well, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and restraint and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will repay each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life; 8 but to those who are self-serving and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, He will give wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of mankind who does evil, for the Jew first and also for the Greek, 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who does what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.

All of this has been pointed out to you repeatedly on this thread - and you keep asking for it "again"... not sure how that is helping your case.

 

[BobRyan]

And deals with the beast powers, and judgment is given to the saints as a group.

When the Pre-Advent Investigative Judgment "out of the books" (which is always individual by individual) then all the saints are identified - the members of the group assigned - and now the 2nd coming can take place where only "the dead in Christ" are raised - and there will be no ages and ages long humanity of all ages standing around at the second coming watching and waiting their turn to finally discover "who the dead in Christ are" so they alone can be resurrected at the first resurrection of Rev 20 -- "over these the second death has no power" Rev 20

The "messy version" has all the wicked and all the saints raised at the first resurrection such that it is totally NOT true that "over these the second death has no power" Rev 20

Frankly I don't see how this is even a little bit difficult.

 

[tall73]

"That day WHEN according to my gospel GOD WILL JUDGE" not just the snip "That day"

I posted the whole thing Bob. And you are the one saying the day of judgment refers to the second coming, 1k years and the great white throne judgment. I agree. It all starts with His coming.

 

[tall73]

Not true of Rom 2...not true of 2 Cor 5:10 and not true of Dan 7.

See this post for details...

Already replied to it Bob.

Your assertion that I Corinthians 5 for instance is pre-advent is ludicrous. It says we all appear IN ORDER TO RECEIVE what is due. That does not happen starting in 1844.


2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.

Paul makes it plain that on that day He receives from the Lord, the righteous judge, the award. Paul is not raised sometime after 1844 when his name comes up. He receives His reward when the judge comes, at the second coming.

2Ti 4:7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.
2Ti 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on that day, and not only to me but also to all who have loved his appearing.


No one receives their reward in 1844 or 1849 or 2001. They receive their reward when He comes.

 

[tall73]

When the Pre-Advent Investigative Judgment "out of the books" (which is always individual by individual)

Then you ought to be able to show where it states individual in Daniel 7. Because it doesn't say that at all. In fact the part you are referring to where it references books comes right after describing the deeds of powers. And then it says their power is stripped:

Dan 7:8 I considered the horns, and behold, there came up among them another horn, a little one, before which three of the first horns were plucked up by the roots. And behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking great things.
Dan 7:9 “As I looked, thrones were placed, and the Ancient of Days took his seat; his clothing was white as snow, and the hair of his head like pure wool; his throne was fiery flames; its wheels were burning fire.
Dan 7:10 A stream of fire issued and came out from before him; a thousand thousands served him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him; the court sat in judgment, and the books were opened.
Dan 7:11 “I looked then because of the sound of the great words that the horn was speaking. And as I looked, the beast was killed, and its body destroyed and given over to be burned with fire.
Dan 7:12 As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.

then all the saints are identified - the members of the group assigned -

It says nothing about "assigned". And they were identified already as the saints, a group.

The "messy version" has all the wicked and all the saints raised at the first resurrection such that it is totally NOT true that "over these the second death has no power" Rev 20

I see you never actually answered the question asked about Revelation 20.

And as I noted, it doesn't matter whether you see one or two resurrections. All of the texts describing individual judgment happens after Jesus comes.

 

[BobRyan]

Then you ought to be able to show where it states individual in Daniel 7.

1. I already point out that ALL cases in scripture of being judged out of open books in heaven are cases of individuals being judged.
2. I already point out that ALL Bible doctrine/interpretation methods that are valid - require that scripture pertaining to a given doctrine be read and accepted (and not IGNORED as if "because it was in the wrong chapter or another-chapter" is some funny sort of "new rule" for exegesis).

I don't see how this point is even a little difficult. You have free will and are free to reject it - but a lot of readers here would not go to such an extreme when it comes to this easy detail.

 

[tall73]

1. I already point out that ALL cases in scripture of being judged out of open books in heaven are cases of individuals being judged.

Great, so show how it is in Daniel 7. You didn't show that.

And it states right after the books that the powers, including Babylon, which is not professed people of God, having their authority stripped.

2. I already point out that ALL Bible doctrine examples that are valid - require that scripture pertaining to a given doctrine be read and accepted and not IGNORED as if "because it was in the wrong chapter" is some funny sort of "new rule" for exegesis.

Bob, it has already been pointed out Daniel 7 does not describe individual judgment. Which is why you look for it elsewhere.

 

[BobRyan]

Your assertion that I Corinthians 5 for instance is pre-advent is ludicrous. It says we all appear IN ORDER TO RECEIVE what is due.

as already posted (and as you already admitted) that is not a reference to arguing with God or out-arguing God - it is a reference to the facts written in those books presenting the case "whether good or bad" as we see in 2 Cor 5:10.

Just as we do not wildly assert that Eph 2:4-6 puts all saints physically in heaven seated next to Jesus.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus​

(As already pointed out)

 

[BobRyan]

Bob, it has already been pointed out Daniel 7 does not describe individual judgment.

It specifically points to judgment "out of the books" as already pointed out.

And you cannot deny that this is always the individual deeds written in books regarding individuals - as is always the case in scripture when judgment is done from books opened in heaven - this is irrefutable.

No wonder that is what we see here --

"Judgment passed in favor of the saints" Dan 7:22 - posted to you dozens of times on this thread

22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom. (So that is clearly pre-advent judgment out of books)

Senquenced... and in that order.

"judgment out of the books of record" with deeds of each one of those being judged in record.
9 “I kept looking
Until thrones were set up,
And the Ancient of Days took His seat;
His garment was white as snow,
And the hair of His head like pure wool.
His throne was ablaze with flames,
Its wheels were a burning fire.
10 A river of fire was flowing
And coming out from before Him;
Thousands upon thousands were serving Him,
And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him;
The court convened,
And the books were opened.

Each of person - individual deeds -
2 Cor 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive compensation for his deeds done through the body, in accordance with what he has done, whether good or bad.

Judgment "out of the books" is judgment of the deeds of each person recorded there.
Rev 20
12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.

In all cases - judgment out of the books that are opened - is a judgment of each individual recorded there according to individual deeds - good OR bad.

this is irrefutable.

Rom 2:3 But do you suppose this, you foolish person who passes judgment on those who practice such things, and yet does them as well, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and restraint and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will repay each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life; 8 but to those who are self-serving and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, He will give wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of mankind who does evil, for the Jew first and also for the Greek, 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who does what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.

All of this has been pointed out to you repeatedly on this thread - and you keep asking for it "again"... not sure how that is helping your case.

 

[tall73]

it is a reference to the facts written in those books presenting the case "whether good or bad" as we see in 2 Cor 5:10.

What? It doesn't say presenting the case whether good or bad. It says we must all appear SO THAT we may RECEIVE WHAT IS DUE, good or bad. You don't receive good or bad at the IJ. You receive at the second coming. The penalty or reward happens when Jesus comes, and not before.

2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.

Paul, the one speaking, spells that out in his own case:

2Ti 4:7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.
2Ti 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on that day, and not only to me but also to all who have loved his appearing.

 

[tall73]

It specifically points to judgment "out of the books" as already pointed out.

And you cannot deny that this is always the individual deeds written in books regarding individuals - as is always the case in scripture when judgment is done from books opened in heaven - this is irrefutable.

I cannot say that it is every case, because I just posted from Daniel 7 where it refers to the seating of the court and then immediately relates the stripping of authority of beasts.

Dan 7:10 A stream of fire issued and came out from before him; a thousand thousands served him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him; the court sat in judgment, and the books were opened.
Dan 7:11 “I looked then because of the sound of the great words that the horn was speaking. And as I looked, the beast was killed, and its body destroyed and given over to be burned with fire.
Dan 7:12 As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.

 

[tall73]

Re: 2300 days prophecy, have you watched the video by Pastor Stephen Bohr?

I watched it now. Pretty much the usual presentation of the 70 weeks, which I said several times now I accept.

It referenced the 2,300 days for a moment but did not elaborate. I do not agree with the Adventist interpretation of the 2,300 days.

 

[AdamjEdgar]

I watched it now. Pretty much the usual presentation of the 70 weeks, which I said several times now I accept.

It referenced the 2,300 days for a moment but did not elaborate. I do not agree with the Adventist interpretation of the 2,300 days.

But you were an SDA once, what now is your interpretation of both the 70 week and 1260 day prophecies?
I am looking for a timeline that illustrates other views of Daniels prophecies...remembering these also include the corresponding passages in Revelation.

Could I also make a seemingly offtopic statement...i wonder how many people here realise that of all the books missing from Codex Sinaiticus, the entire book of Daniel is not in that manuscript online! (how bizarre) I find this an incredible coincidence considering the location of the book of Daniel in the Bible...it does not surely seem like a random activity at the hands of an unknowing monk to rip that entire book out of the manuscript for fire starting material surely.

Also, some may find it almost impossible to also read, the book of Revelation in Sinaiticus is of such corrupted poor quality, it is unreliable as a witness for this important book of the Bible written by apostle John!

What is even more coincidentally suspicious...that this manuscript was first found by Ticshendorf in 1844!

What are the chances a long lost manuscript, the oldest of the known Bible, is found in 1844 with the entire book of Daniel missing...the very book that the founders of the SDA movement developed the IJ Doctrine from after the great disappointment of the same year!

May i also add an edit here after reading what Mrs White had to say about this subject...

in the type [earthly sanctuary] no sin could be confessed and conveyed into the sanctuary after the high priest entered the Most Holy. Lev. 4:1-7; 16:17,23,24. So if this was a type of the entrance of Christ into the Most Holy in heaven in 1844, then truly the door of mercy did close there, and all sinners since are lost"
​

So here is a problem for the opposing view to current SDA IJ... If Christ the High Priest entered the Most Holy place immediately after his ascension, how does one resolve Mrs. Whites claim above, is one therefore back where the Millerite movement were in Oct 1844?

Lets also add to this dilemma, Rev 8:1-5. If there are not 2 compartments in heaven, or indeed if the Holy place is this earth, how can the angel in Rev 8 possibly be standing at the altar of incense?

Berean Study Bible Par ▾
1When the Lamb opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour. 2And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and they were given seven trumpets.3Then another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, along with the prayers of all the saints, on the golden altar before the throne. 4And the smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of the saints, rose up before God from the hand of the angel.5Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and hurled it to the earth; and there were peals of thunder, and rumblings, and flashes of lightning, and an earthquake.
​

My understanding is that the High Priest must be in the Holy Place to offer intercessory prayers for Gods people

the altar of incense was a reminder for the high priest to intercede for Israel. It stood for intercessory prayer. We often forget the intercessory prayer ministry of Jesus as our high priest. https://0201.nccdn.net/4_2/000/000/046/6ea/the-altar-of-incense.pdf

John 17 is a reference for the intercessory prayers

​

I also note Des Ford includes the following quote from Ballenger in his paper...which is a complete misrepresentation of the entire plan of salvation as it appears to claim Jesus only died for the sins of the living at the time and not for all time!

We teach that no sins are pardoned except those that go into the sanctuary by the priestly work, and yet we have the sanctuary closed to the patriarchs for four thousand years, and that Christ began the work of carrying sins into the heavenly sanctuary at his ascension.- This leaves four thousand years without any priest by which the sin was carried into the sanctuary.​

 

[BobRyan]

I cannot say that it is every case, because I just posted from Daniel 7 where it refers to the seating of the court and then immediately relates the stripping of authority of beasts.

Dan 7 says it concludes with "judgment passed in favor of the saints" -- this is irrefutable.

Dan 7 says that once the judgment is completed then authority is taken away from the beasts and Christ's kingdom is setup - this is irrefutable.

22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom.

26 But the court will convene for judgment, and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever. 27 Then the sovereignty, the dominion, and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints​

1. Rom 2:4-16 judgment is the Dan 7 Pre-advent judgment and not the Rev 20 GWT judgment because –

a. It filters between both lost and saved – to identify the group that is only the saved and that includes “the dead in Christ” of 1 Thess 4:13-18.
b. In Rev 20 we are told that over those in the first resurrection “the second death has no power over them”. So those in the second resurrection are subject to the 2nd death
c. 1 Thess 4:13-18 shows that the fully saved have been fully identified before the appearing of Christ where “only the dead in Christ” are raised. So Rom 2 is future to Paul and before the 1 Thess 4:13-18​

2. Rom 2:4-16 and Dan 7 complement each other providing details about the future judgment that the other text does not fully cover.

a. They work like Deut 6:4 (one God) and Matt 28:19 (in three persons) – do to define the Trinity Doctrine in scripture.
b. Exegesis demands that we include all text that deal with the same doctrine in the full scope of defining a given doctrine is – so both Dan 7 and Rom 2 apply to future pre-advent judgment.​

 

[BobRyan]

What? It doesn't say presenting the case whether good or bad.

2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.

It is referencing the group of Rom 2 and Dan 7 that includes the saints. Judgment has to be made to filter out the wicked from among the saints so as to identify jus "the dead in Christ" and living saints as per 1 Thess 4:13-18 so that they come up in the "First resurrection" of Rev 20 and get their reward - and the wicked are all in the second resurrection of Rev 20 over whom the second death does have power.

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said: ↑
1. I already point out that ALL cases in scripture of being judged out of open books in heaven are cases of individuals being judged.

Great, so show how it is in Daniel 7. You didn't show that.

Except for the many times I did show that for both Dan 7 and Rev 20.

Dan 7

9 “I kept looking
Until thrones were set up,
And the Ancient of Days took His seat;
His garment was white as snow,
And the hair of His head like pure wool.
His throne was ablaze with flames,
Its wheels were a burning fire.
10 A river of fire was flowing
And coming out from before Him;
Thousands upon thousands were serving Him,
And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him;
The court convened,
And the books were opened.

21 I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and prevailing against them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom.
​

Conclusion -- the "Dead in Christ" are fully identified in the Dan 7 pre-advent judgment that filters out the wicked among them as per Rom 2:4-16 and ends up with just "the dead in Christ" and all living saints identified with "judgment passed in favor of the saints" vs 22.


Rev 20

2 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them; and they were judged, each one of them according to their deeds.​

Conclusion: The second resurrection group of Rev 20 are those "over whom" the second death DOES have power.