Question for Seventh Day Adventist

[tall73]

On the contrary I pointed out many many times that you have conflated "Judgment on beasts" with "Judgment passed in favor of saints".

Perhaps you didn't notice it because whenever you speak of the judgment with books you take out verses 11 and 12.

Dan 7:1 In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon Daniel had a dream and visions of his head upon his bed: then he wrote the dream, and told the sum of the matters.
Dan 7:2 Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea.
Dan 7:3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.
Dan 7:4 The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it.
Dan 7:5 And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.
Dan 7:6 After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.
Dan 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.
Dan 7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
Dan 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
Dan 7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
Dan 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
Dan 7:12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

You keep emphasizing the books, but ignoring the verses right around them in which the judgment, and open books, result in the fourth beast being slain, and the rest of the beasts having their dominion taken away.

And this is reinforced in verse 26 which speaks of the sitting judgment (the same with books), and how it is taking away particularly the dominion of the fourth beast and little horn:

Dan 7:26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.

So it is in fact judgment on the beasts. And Babylon and Persia and Greece, and even pagain Rome are not all professed followers of God.

And they are "conflated" because judgment is given against the beasts, and in favor of the saints.

Just as the widow in Luke 18 asked for justice against her adversary, so the saints are given justice against their adversary.

But you want to avoid the judgment involving the beasts, because Babylon, Persia, Greece, and even pagan Rome were not in fact all professed followers of God. And so that breaks the whole notion of this being an IJ on only the professed followers of God.

But the whole vision itself is related up to verse 12 explaining the deeds of the beast, the seating of the judgment to deal with them, and the result, which is the stripping of their dominion.

Dan 7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
Dan 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
Dan 7:12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

Verified here:

Dan 7:26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.

Dan 7 does not determine any judgment on beasts until judgment in favor of saints ends as the text states and as has been noted on this thread a number of times.

Incorrect, the judgment against the beasts and in favor of the saints are the same judgment, for the saints, against their adversaries.

Dan 7:26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.

He asks for the explanation.

Dan 7:16 I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things.
Dan 7:17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.

The truth is about the four beasts, arising out of the earth, not just the saints. In fact, the vision itself didn't reference the saints directly, only the explanation. Because the deeds described in the vision are those of the beasts which are judged.

Dan 7:18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.

The saints will take the kingdom--this happens after the second coming.

Dan 7:19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;
Dan 7:20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.
Dan 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

the horn made war with the saints and prevailed against them. This went on until the Ancient of Days came and the judgment was held.

Dan 7:22 Until the Ancient of Days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

After the Ancient of Days came judgment was given in favor of the saints. And then they possessed the kingdom.

But the judgment "in favor of" the saints is also a judgment against the beasts and the fourth beast and little horn in particular. It is what ends the trampling.

Dan 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
Dan 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Dan 7:26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.

The same judgment that is given in favor of the saints takes away His dominion. Because it is judgment against the Beasts, including the fourth beast, with the little horn.

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said: ↑
On the contrary I pointed out many many times that you have conflated "Judgment on beasts" with "Judgment passed in favor of saints".

Perhaps you didn't notice it because whenever you speak of the judgment with books you take out verses 11 and 12.

I keep pointing out that the text says only at the end of the judgment is any destruction of the beast power done.


Dan 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
Dan 7:22 Until the Ancient of Days came, and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

1. Judgment concludes in favor of the saints.
2. Then beast destroyed
3. Then second coming.

It is only after the saints are judged and judgement passed in favor of the saints - that any of the destruction of the beast happens. This is judgment passed in favor OF the saints and then destruction OF the beast powers and of course - second coming. As has been pointed out repeatedly.

You can spin this to "judgment passed in favor of the beast" or destruction of the saints. It is first "Judgment passed in favor of " (judgment concluded in favor of) "the saints" - and then followed by "destruction of" the beast powers and second coming.

‘The fourth beast will be a fourth kingdom on the earth which will be different from all the other kingdoms, and will devour the whole earth and trample it down and crush it. 24 As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings will arise; and another will arise after them, and he will be different from the previous ones and will humble three kings. 25 And he will speak against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be handed over to him for a time, times, and half a time. 26 But the court will convene for judgment, and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever. 27 Then the sovereignty, the dominion, and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the empires will serve and obey Him.

1. Judgment concludes in favor of the saints.
2. Then beast destroyed
3. Then second coming.

irrefutable.

 

[BobRyan]

Tall73: You don't receive anything in the IJ.

BobRyan said: ↑
Yes ... you do.. You are placed in the group that is to be raised at he appearing of Christ -- "in the first resurrection". (if you are dead at that time).

Rev 6:11 And a white robe was given to each of them; and they were told that they were to rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers and sisters who were to be killed even as they had been, was completed also.

Irrefutable

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

 

[BobRyan]

I will go through and respond to your last round, but are you still working on it? You still did not address the parable of the talents.

1. you can't make parables "stand on all fours" - the main point of the parable is the take away and not forcing it to all-fours. As we see in Luke 16 with the lesson being "they will not listen even though one rises from the dead " (which Christ did) ). I thought we all knew that.

2. 2 Peter 3 points to the day of the lord as spanning 1000 years from 2nd coming to GWT event at the end of Rev 20 but omits all those "details".

3. John is the only writer that includes the "details" that that day is a span of 1000 years with two resurrections - two executive judgments passed - 1-the saints raptured, 2-the wicked destroyed. You are spinning this as if they are "different Bibles" rather than composite information for one single account.

4. The parable of the talents is not about the talent of teaching or singing - it is about truth and the knowledge of God. Some people who used to have some degree of accuracy in their knowledge about God - fail to expand and improve on that - and eventually come to the point of not even knowing the truths about God - that they used to understand. Others improve that knowledge by accurately sharing it with others and adding to it in studying the Word of God with an mind open to the truth of scripture.

John 16 Jesus said "I have many MORE things to tell you but you cannot receive them now" - His plan is always to add more to the understanding instead of deleting the understanding of truth that the person already has.

 

[BobRyan]

In this - a thread titled: "Question for Seventh Day Adventist"

we have an OP that starts like this --

Do you guys affirm Mr. and Mrs Whites christology/teachings also can you guys give me scripture for investigative judgement...

Then comes post #7 on page one.. after my correct responses on page one --

The judgment of professed believers in God happens in person, not in absentia as the Seventh-day Adventist teaching indicates.
...

But posts #2-#6 already show that the individual judgment of Romans 2:4-16 that is future to Paul's day - is necessarily a part of the detail for the Dan 7 pre-advent judgment that is based on the books of records "being opened" and the court sits. Rev 20 points out that when people are judged out of books opened in heaven's court - it is deeds of each person that are judged. Which actually "is" the SDA position from scripture alone - being requested in the OP.

So then on page 1 -- I Posted this

The thread is from a non-SDA to SDAs asking about this unique teaching - which gets my interest because it is unclear as to how many of the details are known to him/her on this topic.

While it is true that we can find many non-SDA sources who do not agree with 100% of everything Adventists point out in the Bible related to the future judgment - still a lot of them do have at least some teaching on the subject of future judgment. So it will be interesting to see how the author of this thread responds to the details I and other SDAs have given in these posts.

And although Tall73 has added a very large number of long posts on this thread started by dóxatotheó -- I don't actually see dóxatotheó posting any more here.

 

[BobRyan]

Regarding the symbolism in Rev 6...

Is your goal with this post to uphold the communion of all the saints as seen by the Orthodox church, and to question the Adventist state of the dead?

They receive the robe in the text you cite not at the end of their case coming up in the judgment, which is not mentioned in this text, but rather when they cry out.

Now either

a. You suddenly take a very different view of the state of the dead.

b. This is a play on the theme of Abel's blood crying out from the ground, and no one is being given a white robe starting in 1844.

Or "C" - the text is showing a decision that is made in heaven and the white robe of Christ's righteousness is being accounted to the dead in Christ as they are identified in Dan 7 investigative judgment process as predicted by Christ.

 

[tall73]

I keep pointing out that the text says only at the end of the judgment is any destruction of the beast power done.

Of course, because the beast is judged before it is destroyed. That was the point of the judgment.

Dan 7:10 A stream of fire issued and came out from before him; a thousand thousands served him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him; the court sat in judgment, and the books were opened.
Dan 7:11 “I looked then because of the sound of the great words that the horn was speaking. And as I looked, the beast was killed, and its body destroyed and given over to be burned with fire.
Dan 7:12 As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.

Dan 7:23 “Thus he said: ‘As for the fourth beast, there shall be a fourth kingdom on earth, which shall be different from all the kingdoms, and it shall devour the whole earth, and trample it down, and break it to pieces.
Dan 7:24 As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings shall arise, and another shall arise after them; he shall be different from the former ones, and shall put down three kings.
Dan 7:25 He shall speak words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High, and shall think to change the times and the law; and they shall be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time.
Dan 7:26 But the court shall sit in judgment, and his dominion shall be taken away, to be consumed and destroyed to the end.

Dan 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
Dan 7:22 Until the Ancient of Days came, and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

1. Judgment concludes in favor of the saints.
2. Then beast destroyed
3. Then second coming.

Sure, because the judgment is in favor of the saints, and against the beasts,

Dan 7:11 “I looked then because of the sound of the great words that the horn was speaking. And as I looked, the beast was killed, and its body destroyed and given over to be burned with fire.
Dan 7:12 As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.


Dan 7:25 He shall speak words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High, and shall think to change the times and the law; and they shall be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time.
Dan 7:26 But the court shall sit in judgment, and his dominion shall be taken away, to be consumed and destroyed to the end.

1. the court shall sit in judgment.
2 The judgment concludes in favor of the saints and against the beasts
3. The dominion of the beasts is removed, and the fourth beast destroyed, and the saints inherit the kingdom.

It is only after the saints are judged and judgement passed in favor of the saints - that any of the destruction of the beast happens. This is judgment passed in favor OF the saints and then destruction OF the beast powers and of course - second coming. As has been pointed out repeatedly.

The court sat in judgment of the case between the beasts and the saints. But you want to skip the verses that speak of the beasts being judged in 11, 12, and 26, while I do not in fact ignore the judgment in favor of the saints.

You have to ignore those other verse because the judgment sitting on the beasts, the books being opened and the beasts are judged, etc. doesn't work with the judgment you are claiming.

But the judgment in favor of the saints is not an issue for my view, because the judgment is against the beasts and in favor of the saints.

Nothing is descbed about individual judgment on professed followers, the powers judged include non-professed followers.

And yes, you have given your view repeatedly. And I have continued to point out the verses you don't want to look at while also discussing the verse you do want to talk about. What we don't see is any verses describing what Ellen White claimed, and you apparently wish were there, which is individual judgment on ONLY the cases of professed followers of God. Instead we see a judgment against beasts, and for the saints as a group.

So we are repeating. But you are not addressing all of the texts.

It is first "Judgment passed in favor of " (judgment concluded in favor of) "the saints"

It is not first judgment in favor of the saints.

a. the vision doesn't reference them, only the explanation ,and both the vision and the explanation note the judgment of these powers.

b. The trampling of the saints stops because of judgment in favor of the saints and against the beasts. The case is investigated, judgment is found against the beast, and it is slain. The judgment against the beasts is also the judgment in favor of the saints.

Now you claim the books are there for the individual judgment of the cases of professed believers. But that is never stated. Rather it is stated that the court is seated and strips dominion from the beasts in vs. 11, 12, and 26.

‘The fourth beast will be a fourth kingdom on the earth which will be different from all the other kingdoms, and will devour the whole earth and trample it down and crush it. 24 As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings will arise; and another will arise after them, and he will be different from the previous ones and will humble three kings. 25 And he will speak against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be handed over to him for a time, times, and half a time. 26 But the court will convene for judgment, and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever. 27 Then the sovereignty, the dominion, and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the empires will serve and obey Him.

1. Judgment concludes in favor of the saints.
2. Then beast destroyed
3. Then second coming.

It is funny how you quote that the court sits for judgment and strips the authority of the beast, but skip that in your summary altogether. But it is there.

The whole vision through verse 12 is about judgment on the beasts. And the explanation also indicates that in verse 26.

 

[tall73]

Tall73: You still did not address the parable of the talents.

2 Peter 3 points to the day of the lord as spanning 1000 years from 2nd coming to GWT event at the end of Rev 20 but omits all those "details".

Great Bob, so you are you saying the parable timing falls in there--from the second coming to the GWT?

In other words, are you saying it is after the second coming?

The parable of the talents is not about the talent of teaching or singing - it is about truth and the knowledge of God. Some people who used to have some degree of accuracy in their knowledge about God - fail to expand and improve on that - and eventually come to the point of not even knowing the truths about God - that they used to understand. Others improve that knowledge by accurately sharing it with others and adding to it in studying the Word of God with an mind open to the truth of scripture.

Bob, it is included in a whole series of parables in Matthew 24 and 25 that specifically relate to Jesus' coming. And they give account and receive their reward.

Now why would Jesus include that in the series of parables on His coming?

And we have in literal terms, rather than a parable, right after that the Son of Man on His throne and they give account, and receive their reward.

Mat 25:31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.
Mat 25:32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
Mat 25:33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left.
Mat 25:34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
Mat 25:35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me,
Mat 25:36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’
Mat 25:37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink?
Mat 25:38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you?
Mat 25:39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’
Mat 25:40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’
Mat 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Mat 25:42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’
Mat 25:44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’
Mat 25:45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’
Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

 

[tall73]

Rev 6:9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne.
Rev 6:10 They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”
Rev 6:11 Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

Regarding the symbolism in Rev 6...

Or "C" - the text is showing a decision that is made in heaven and the white robe of Christ's righteousness is being accounted to the dead in Christ as they are identified in Dan 7 investigative judgment process as predicted by Christ.

These are not all the dead in Christ. They are a select group of martyrs.

I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne.

It says nothing about a review of their cases. You simply inserted your theology into it. They receive the white robe not due to any stated judgment on them, but because they ask how long until God judges and avenges their blood, which is seen as poured out at the altar, as sacrifices for Christ. They are given a white robe and told to rest longer. Nor do they receive their robe sequentially after their review, but in answer to their question.

 

[klutedavid]

I keep pointing out that the text says only at the end of the judgment is any destruction of the beast power done.


Dan 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
Dan 7:22 Until the Ancient of Days came, and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

1. Judgment concludes in favor of the saints.
2. Then beast destroyed
3. Then second coming.

It is only after the saints are judged and judgement passed in favor of the saints - that any of the destruction of the beast happens. This is judgment passed in favor OF the saints and then destruction OF the beast powers and of course - second coming. As has been pointed out repeatedly.

You can spin this to "judgment passed in favor of the beast" or destruction of the saints. It is first "Judgment passed in favor of " (judgment concluded in favor of) "the saints" - and then followed by "destruction of" the beast powers and second coming.

‘The fourth beast will be a fourth kingdom on the earth which will be different from all the other kingdoms, and will devour the whole earth and trample it down and crush it. 24 As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings will arise; and another will arise after them, and he will be different from the previous ones and will humble three kings. 25 And he will speak against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be handed over to him for a time, times, and half a time. 26 But the court will convene for judgment, and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever. 27 Then the sovereignty, the dominion, and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the empires will serve and obey Him.

1. Judgment concludes in favor of the saints.
2. Then beast destroyed
3. Then second coming.

irrefutable.

Irrefutable you say?

Romans 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

Romans 8:1
Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

John 3:18
He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

1 John 4:17
By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, so also are we in this world.

1 Corinthians 6:2
Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? If the world is judged by you, are you not competent to constitute the smallest law courts?

1 Corinthians 11:32
But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord so that we will not be condemned along with the world.

2 Thessalonians 2:12
In order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.

 

[tall73]

3. John is the only writer that includes the "details" that that day is a span of 1000 years with two resurrections - two executive judgments passed - 1-the saints raptured, 2-the wicked destroyed. You are spinning this as if they are "different Bibles" rather than composite information for one single account.

I have not said different Bibles Bob. And I said whether you take that view, or the other, make no difference. All the judgment starts after the second coming. But I think there are a few things you are not in fact seeing in the first and second resurrection in Rev. 20. It might fit better in Edgar's earlier thread on that topic.

 

[tall73]

In this - a thread titled: "Question for Seventh Day Adventist"

we have an OP that starts like this --



Then comes post #7 on page one.. after my correct responses on page one --



But posts #2-#6 already show that the individual judgment of Romans 2:4-16 that is future to Paul's day - is necessarily a part of the detail for the Dan 7 pre-advent judgment that is based on the books of records "being opened" and the court sits. Rev 20 points out that when people are judged out of books opened in heaven's court - it is deeds of each person that are judged. Which actually "is" the SDA position from scripture alone - being requested in the OP.

So then on page 1 -- I Posted this



And although Tall73 has added a very large number of long posts on this thread started by dóxatotheó -- I don't actually see dóxatotheó posting any more here.

You left off part of the topic Bob:

Do you guys affirm Mr. and Mrs Whites christology/teachings also can you guys give me scripture for investigative judgement now if you guys dk wat that is basically the founders of your church core doctrine and movement is that Christ entered upon the "judgment phase" of His ministry, whereby He blots out sin. The SDA "Investigative Judgment" doctrine rests on Ellen White's claimed revelation that Christ entered the Holy of Holies not at His ascension, but in 1844 (The Great Controversy, p.362-373).
Now SDA if you don't affirm the founders of your church beliefs than its cool but if you do please prove some of the wierd beliefs they had with scripture please and thank you

Do you guys affirm Mr. and Mrs Whites christology/teachings also can you guys give me scripture for investigative judgement now if you guys dk wat that is basically the founders of your church core doctrine and movement is that Christ entered upon the "judgment phase" of His ministry, whereby He blots out sin. The SDA "Investigative Judgment" doctrine rests on Ellen White's claimed revelation that Christ entered the Holy of Holies not at His ascension, but in 1844 (The Great Controversy, p.362-373).
Now SDA if you don't affirm the founders of your church beliefs than its cool but if you do please prove some of the wierd beliefs they had with scripture please and thank you



We are discussing the topic he gave, and we are discussing your proof. I am on topic.

And if you want him to come back, why not @ him? I quoted his OP, so maybe he will come back to discuss with you.

 

[BobRyan]

Great Bob, so you are you saying the parable timing falls in there-

I said that John is the only writer that informs us of the detail of
1. two resurrections
2. separated by 1000 years
3. - Peter in 2 Peter 3 - lumps all of it into "the Day of the Lord" spanning all 1000 years.
4. the first resurrection is that of the "dead in Christ" -- "over whom the second death has no power". -- the second resurrection is just the wicked.

And of course pre-advent judgment of Dan 7 determines who will be in which resurrection (determines who the "dead in Christ" are )- so it must complete before the second coming - as Dan 7 points out

I also said that parables cannot be forced "to stand on all fours" as the Luke 16 example I gave proves.

"parable timing fails" was not in my post - it is in yours.

This is what I posted.

1. you can't make parables "stand on all fours" - the main point of the parable is the take away and not forcing it to all-fours. As we see in Luke 16 with the lesson being "they will not listen even though one rises from the dead " (which Christ did) ). I thought we all knew that.

2. 2 Peter 3 points to the day of the lord as spanning 1000 years from 2nd coming to GWT event at the end of Rev 20 but omits all those "details".

3. John is the only writer that includes the "details" that that day is a span of 1000 years with two resurrections - two executive judgments passed - 1-the saints raptured, 2-the wicked destroyed. You are spinning this as if they are "different Bibles" rather than composite information for one single account.

4. The parable of the talents is not about the talent of teaching or singing - it is about truth and the knowledge of God. Some people who used to have some degree of accuracy in their knowledge about God - fail to expand and improve on that - and eventually come to the point of not even knowing the truths about God - that they used to understand. Others improve that knowledge by accurately sharing it with others and adding to it in studying the Word of God with an mind open to the truth of scripture.

John 16 Jesus said "I have many MORE things to tell you but you cannot receive them now" - His plan is always to add more to the understanding instead of deleting the understanding of truth that the person already has.

 

[tall73]

I said that John is the only writer that informs us of the detail of
1. two resurrections
2. separated by 1000 years
3. - Peter in 2 Peter 3 - lumps all of it into "the Day of the Lord" spanning all 1000 years.
4. the first resurrection is that of the "dead in Christ" -- "over whom the second death has no power". -- the second resurrection is just the wicked.

And of course pre-advent judgment of Dan 7 determines who will be in which resurrection (determines who the "dead in Christ" are )- so it must complete before the second coming - as Dan 7 points out

I also said that parables cannot be forced "to stand on all fours" as the Luke 16 example I gave proves.

"parable timing fails" was not in my post - it is in yours.

This is what I posted.

You say that 2 Peter groups the second coming, 1k years and GWT together.

So does the parable of the talents fall in that timing?

If it helps, this parable is in a series of parables dealing with the second coming of Jesus.


Mat 25:14 “For it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants and entrusted to them his property.
Mat 25:15 To one he gave five talents, to another two, to another one, to each according to his ability. Then he went away.
Mat 25:16 He who had received the five talents went at once and traded with them, and he made five talents more.
Mat 25:17 So also he who had the two talents made two talents more.
Mat 25:18 But he who had received the one talent went and dug in the ground and hid his master's money.
Mat 25:19 Now after a long time the master of those servants came and settled accounts with them.