Question for Seventh Day Adventist members

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Daniel Marsh

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Our personal experiences with God are not a "problem" unless they don't line up perfectly with the word of God. I have checked out her writings and she is not out of line with the Bible. She promotes the Bible and encourages people to follow every word of God. Just a few examples:

:hibiscus: "With the setting aside of the Bible has come a turning away from God's law." PK 624.2

:hibiscus: “The words of the Bible and the Bible alone, should be heard from the pulpit. PK 626.1

:hibiscus: "The truths of the Bible, received, will uplift mind and soul. If the Word of God were appreciated as it should be, both young and old would possess an inward rectitude, a strength of principle, that would enable them to resist temptation." The Ministry of Healing, 459 (1905).

:hibiscus: "A familiar acquaintance with the Scriptures sharpens the discerning powers and fortifies the soul against the attacks of Satan. The Bible is the sword of the Spirit, which will never fail to vanquish the adversary. It is the only true guide in all matters of faith and practice. The reason why Satan has so great control over the minds and hearts of men is that they have not made the Word of God the man of their counsel, and all their ways have not been tried by the true test. The Bible will show us what course we must pursue to become heirs of glory." The Review and Herald, January 4, 1881.

:hibiscus: "But that which above all other considerations should lead us to prize the Bible is that in it is revealed to men the will of God. Here we learn the object of our creation and the means by which that object may be attained. We learn how to improve wisely the present life and how to secure the future life. No other book can satisfy the questionings of the mind or the cravings of the heart. By obtaining a knowledge of God's Word and giving heed thereto, men may rise from the lowest depths of degradation to become the sons of God, the associates of sinless angels." Counsels to Parents, Teachers, and Students, 53, 54 (1913).

:hibiscus: "The reason why the youth, and even those of mature years, are so easily led into temptation and sin is that they do not study the Word of God and meditate upon it as they should. The lack of firm, decided willpower, which is manifest in life and character, results from neglect of the sacred instruction of God's Word. They do not by earnest effort direct the mind to that which would inspire pure, holy thought and divert it from that which is impure and untrue." Ministry of Healing, 458 (1905).

:hibiscus: "If the mind is set to the task of studying the Bible for information, the reasoning faculties will be improved. Under study of the Scriptures the mind expands and becomes more evenly balanced than if occupied in obtaining general information from the books that are used which have no connection with the Bible. No knowledge is so firm, so consistent and far-reaching, as that obtained from a study of the Word of God. It is the foundation of all true knowledge." 1MCP 97.1

I could carry on forever showing quotes where she makes the Bible and the Bible alone our guidelines!

Yes, I did read about the supposed copying and here is the answer to that:

https://www.ellenwhitedefend.com/Defense/Plagiarized.pdf

And, yet I gave quotes where she used her gift of prophecy as the tie breaker.

Scripture plainly says that the prophet is to be tested by Scripture, not the other way around.

Even SDA scholars have documented her quoting others without giving proper reference to their works.
 
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Freth

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And, yet I gave quotes where she used her gift of prophecy as the tie breaker.

Scripture plainly says that the prophet is to be tested by Scripture, not the other way around.

Even SDA scholars have documented her quoting others without giving proper reference to their works.

Andrews University takes a look at Ellen's borrowing from other authors in detail here.

An independent attorney was hired to determine if Ellen was indeed guilty of plagiarism. Here's what he found:

"...A legal opinion was sought and the charge that Ellen White plagiarized her books was reviewed by Attorney Vincent L. Ramik. In his August 14, 1981 report, after spending more than 300 hours researching about 1,000 relevant cases in American legal history, he concluded that “Ellen White was not a plagiarist, and her works did not constitute copyright infringement/piracy.” Ramik explained that, “Nowhere have we found the books of Ellen G. White to be virtually the ‘same plan and character throughout’ as those of her predecessors. Nor have we found, or have critics made reference to, any intention of Ellen White to supercede . . . [other authors] in the market with the same class of readers and purchasers.” Instead he found that “she invariably introduced considerable new matter to that which she borrowed, going far beyond mere ‘colorable deviations,’ and, in effect, created an altogether new literary work.”​
 
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Freth

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And, yet I gave quotes where she used her gift of prophecy as the tie breaker.

Scripture plainly says that the prophet is to be tested by Scripture, not the other way around.

Even SDA scholars have documented her quoting others without giving proper reference to their works.

If you can point out one author that accused her of plagiarism, went to court and won the claim, then I would say you have a point, but if you can't then it's a moot point.
  • "Neither Mrs. White (nor her Estate, since her death) has ever been sued in a court of law, or even threatened with legal remedies, as a result of suspected plagiarism." -Roger W. Coon, April 30, 1999
 
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The Liturgist

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I have to confess that I am finding this thread deeply troubling, because I am not finding Adventists saying “I am an adventist, and I admire EGW, but I disagree with her on this issue, and on that issue,” and so on. If the writings of Ellen White are regarded as an infallible interpretation of scripture I think it undermines the claim of the SDA to adhere to a Sola Scriptura approach along the lines of traditional Protestantism.

To put it another way, I don’t know any Lutherans who do not have at least some criticism of Luther (I haven’t found any apologist willing to defend for instance the very disturbing and grotesque anti-Semitic tracts he wrote, illustrated in a vile way by Lucas Cranach the Elder); I don’t know any Anglicans with a particular devotion to Archbishop Cranmer, and John Wesley, while widely beloved among Protestants, is hardly regarded as infallible among Methodists; indeed most UMC churches preserve only a fraction of his teachings. In the same way, because the early church fathers frequently disagree with each other, the Eastern Orthodox do not tend to regard any of them as utterly infallible, and even in the case of Roman Catholicism, it is easy to find, very easy to find, Roman Catholics of conservative or traditional views who accept without question the idea of Papal Infallibility while simultaneously expressing extremely severe criticism of Pope Francis.
 
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The Liturgist

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If you can point out one author that accused her of plagiarism, went to court and won the claim, then I would say you have a point, but if you can't then it's a moot point.
  • "Neither Mrs. White (nor her Estate, since her death) has ever been sued in a court of law, or even threatened with legal remedies, as a result of suspected plagiarism." -Roger W. Coon, April 30, 1999

Plagiarism requires the work still be under copyright protection and is also difficult to prove.
 
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The Liturgist

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“God is either teaching His church, reproving their wrongs and strengthening their faith, or He is not. This work is of God, or it is not. God does nothing in partnership with Satan. My work ... bears the stamp of God or the stamp of the enemy. There is no halfway work in the matter. The Testimonies are of the Spirit of God, or of the devil.”

EGW actually wrote that?

How do you square that with the numerous errors concerning Patristics and the history of the early church in The Great Controversy?
 
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The Liturgist

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Aren’t there a fair number of moderate Adventists who do not subscribe to the writings of EGW as inherently divinely inspired? Because my experience offline has indicated they do exist.
 
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The Liturgist

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Yes, that comes from Testimonies for the Church volume 5, page 671.2. Opposition against her is nothing new.

Are you referring to things like the Great Disappointment of William Miller? I'm not sure if I understand your question.

No, I am referring to her book of anti-Roman Catholic apologetics, which contains a number of glaring historical inaccuracies and unsupported suppositions, particularly with regards to ancient sects that she erroneously assumed or declared to be Sabbatarian when in fact they weren’t even Christian but Gnostic.
 
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The Liturgist

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Her history is actually accurate

On this point I would ordinarily beg to disagree, but it is not a matter of opinion but of fact and the work in question is objectively false.

and much research has been done in this area. The Roman Catholic Church today is in many cases the only source of information regarding the History of the early church conflicts.

That’s untrue, but even if it were true, it would be a logically fallacious argument.

The writings of the Heruli, Vandals and the Ostragoths has been destroyed and they are branded as Arians.

Primarily by Eastern Orthodox and Byzantine sources. For my part, it is unclear to me if Ellen G. White even knew about the Orthodox, but even if she did, John Calvin knew a great deal about them and his view of them was polemical and many of his assertions were proven false.

But research reveals that they, as well as the Church of the East, the Thomasites and the African Ethiopian Church were in fact Sabbath keepers.

By “Thomasites” I assume you mean the St. Thomas Christians or Nasranis of India who have been Christian since around 50 AD? Because if so, they were a part of the Church of the East, and it is a matter of established fact that the Church of the East met on Sundays, and still does. The liturgy and historical records of that church, which was at one time the largest in the world in terms of geographic territory, and which still exists today, are ancient and extensive. And there is no serious scholarship that suggests they were Sabbatarian. And they are still alive today, so there is that. But we have their ancient liturgical texts, and being something of an enthusiast for all things Syriac as well as all things liturgical, I have studied them extensively and frankly the argument put forward here is laughable. Except to this extent - the Assyrians do, like most Orthodox and other Eastern Christians, with the partial exception of the Armenians, have vespers on Saturday night, but technically that is Sunday according to liturgical time, which follows the ancient custom wherein the day is reckoned to have ended at Sunset (or the service of Vespers).

Moving along, there is no such thing as the “African Ethiopian Church,” other than, I think, a schismatic group of semi-Rastafarians who are of Jamaican origin. The Ethiopian church is called the Ethiopian Tewahedo Orthodox Church. And until the 20th century, it was part of the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate of Alexandria, of which it was a subordinate province as far back as the Council of Chalcedon, and before that it was a part of the Patriarchate of Alexandria, which was converted to Christianity during the reign I believe of Pope St. Alexander of Alexandria, whose successor was Pope St. Athanasius, who as a deacon to Pope Alexander, did successfully prosecute Arius and the Arians at Nicea.

Finally, the Coptic and Ethiopian churches do commonly have the Divine Liturgy on both Saturday and Sunday, but the Sunday service is their main one and always has been. I suspect the confusion, if we were to consider that there was a confusion as opposed to a mere assumption, might derive from the Coptic practice of Saturday night Vespers, which feature the singing of Psalmody, and also the extended Paschal liturgy which starts on Holy Saturday, or “Bright Saturday” as the Copts say. But the Coptic Church, and the Ethiopian Church which was historically a part of it, are not and were never Sabbatarian, as some of our Coptic members like @Pavel Mosko and @dzheremi can attest. Although I have met a lady who had been SDA who married a Copt and converted to the Coptic church, but out of habit, she and her husband always went to the Saturday morning liturgy.

And later the Waldenses, Albigenses and Celtic churches were also largely Sabbath keeping.

There is no record of that. And of those three groups, we know quite a lot about the Albigensians, and they were Gnostic, as members such as @concretecamper @ViaCrucis and @prodromos can attest. The Celtic church is known to have been heavily influenced by the Coptic church, and we have substantial documents and even a Celtic missal. And as for the Waldensians being Sabbatarian, its a bit like the claim of the Landmark Baptists that the Waldensians were Baptist and did not baptize infants; there is no historical record of that, but we do know that those Waldensians who escaped the Piedmont Easter and other atrocities in the 16th century quickly aligned themselves with the Calvinist Reformed Church in Geneva and became one of the main Reformed Protestant denominations in Europe, and the largest in Italy. Given that the Waldensians were willing to be killed for their beliefs, the idea that those Waldensians who had escaped what amounted to a genocide in Piedmont, would, upon reaching the safety of Switzerland, renounce core beliefs just to get into an alliance with the Calvinists, just doesn’t fly.

So, although History books today do not record this there are numerous sources that verify them.

Now see, this is my point concerning the problem posed by the devotion some Adventists have for EGW. Because White declared herself an inspired prophet and therefore either completely fallible or completely infallible, which I did not even know about until today, when you showed me those quotes, Adventists will, if confronted with data which contradicts White, dismiss the data as irrelevant.

This is a serious problem, considering that no other mainstream Christian denomination holds a recent theologian in such a high level of estimation, nor would we find any exhortation to do so among the writings of the likes of Protestant leaders such as Luther, Calvin, Cranmer, Knox, Zwingli and Wesley.

And for that matter, as I said before, Orthodox Christians seem in my experience to readily admit to errors on the part of individual Patristic figures, even though the writings, both liturgical and theological, of these Early Church Fathers and later persons such as St. Gregory Palamas, combine to form a vital portion of their sacred tradition.

And for that matter, as I recently wrote in another thread, many Roman Catholics who are devoted to the idea of Papal Infallibility also write massive amounts of criticism directed at Pope Francis, as well as his decrees, encyclicals and so on.

For more information, read the book, Truth Triumphant - The Church in the Wilderness, by Benjamin George Wilkinson PH. D. There should be a copy of it online.

Why should I do that? Especially when my library contains hundreds of volumes on the history of the Church as well as on the beliefs, motives, religious practices, and other details? Including in many cases their false gospels and other religious writing, including that of the Albigensians and the closely related Cathari.
 
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The Liturgist

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By the way, the credentials of Professor Benjamin George Wilkinson are in and of themselves pause for serious concern, because not only did he advocate for Ellen White’s writings to be regarded as inerrant (which of course means he rejected the fundamental Protestant tenet of sola scriptura), but he was also one of the originators of the King James Only movement, which is also a movement which advocates an unbiblical doctrine which is itself misleading and dangerous.

Now, while it is true that the Authorized Version is very good, particularly with regards to literary style, the KJVO movement elevates it to a status it was never meant to have, even within the Church of England and Church of Scotland for which the Authorized Version was produced (as a compromise between the Bishop’s Bible preferred by Anglicans and the Geneva Bible preferred by Calvinists). And this also causes many problems, because, due to failings in our education system in the US and still greater failures on the part of most churches, even in the vast network of private SDA churches, it is a sad fact that people are having increased difficulty understanding the elegant Jacobean English into which the Authorized Version was translated. And then there are the translations of the KJV into other languages...

So Professor Wilkinson, having gone outside the norms of Adventism to push the agenda of inerrancy on the part of EGW, is not qualified as an impartial or objective source of information on ecclesiastical history. What we know about the history of the church can be most reliably ascertained through objective research not clouded with a priori assumptions, a particular religious mandate that can be thought of as a probable basis for bias, and finally, the risk that that attitude would have in terms of confirmation bias, which is an extremely dangerous logical fallacy which has, among other things, been identified as the culprit in numerous industrial and aviation accidents around the world.

And since people can fall prey to confirmation bias in the context of, say, a commercial airline pilot who drifts off course but continues to erroneously believe he is where he is supposed to be, a situation that is not only devoid of the emotionally charged realm of religious beliefs, but which pilots are trained against, but still fall into anyway due to various human factors, how much more likely is it that a non-objective historian would be at risk for confirmation bias given a conscious desire to validate their position?
 
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ViaCrucis

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Her history is actually accurate and much research has been done in this area. The Roman Catholic Church today is in many cases the only source of information regarding the History of the early church conflicts. The writings of the Heruli, Vandals and the Ostragoths has been destroyed and they are branded as Arians. But research reveals that they, as well as the Church of the East, the Thomasites and the African Ethiopian Church were in fact Sabbath keepers. And later the Waldenses, Albigenses and Celtic churches were also largely Sabbath keeping. So, although History books today do not record this there are numerous sources that verify them. For more information, read the book, Truth Triumphant - The Church in the Wilderness, by Benjamin George Wilkinson PH. D. There should be a copy of it online.

This comes across as a lot of "Just trust me bro". Nobody who has studied history seriously is going to take any of what you've written seriously.

It's conspiracy theory, not history. Having no more historical merit than claims that aliens built the pyramids.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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mmksparbud

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I believe there was a lot of deception somewhere by the devil especially in relation to adventism. & i think what disturbs me the most is, i watched someone that i cared a lot for, going down because they simply wouldn't believe they could be set free from their problems, all because of some strange doctrines/beliefs, which they seemed to uphold.


Adventists are also well known for not receiving other people from different denominations. To them, if you're not one of them, you're lost, destined for hell and you get treated like an outcast. When we stop going by the word of God and start, following some teachings from a chuch founder, it can cause a lot of confusion & destruction.


Totally not true!! Please quote where she said any of this instead of this phoney-baloney they think or she said without any verification of those statements!
 
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And, yet I gave quotes where she used her gift of prophecy as the tie breaker.

Scripture plainly says that the prophet is to be tested by Scripture, not the other way around.

Even SDA scholars have documented her quoting others without giving proper reference to their works.



You have not read where this was taken to court and she was found not guilty of plagiarism. You might as well say Christ and the disciples all plagiarized for much of what they said was quoting the OT without stating where it was found! Again--please show some sort of actual documentation to all your baloney statements!!
 
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