Question for Catholics

[aintzaJainkoari]

And it doesn't matter if they wrote that or not on the tombs, they are still wrong.

 

[aintzaJainkoari]

My grandmother is Catholic and prays to the saints. I've heard her "favorite saint" is St. Jude.

Do you want to know something else? She has terrible health problems: stomach problems, headaches, coughing, she is hardly ever feeling well, she recently had a knot in one of her ovaries and had to have it removed.

My grandmother took me and my brothers and sister to pray for my parents, since they were having marital problems. She took us to a small Catholic "church" about a year ago. It was just a one-room small building in which you bought a candle, lit it, said a prayer in front of a small statue of Jesus and many pictures of the saints, then set the candle there.

If I had known back then that that was idolatry, which it was, one, because Jesus said make no image of Himself so to not subtract from His glory, and two, because the placing the candle there is equal to sacrificing to a false god on an altar, then I would not have participated in it. By the way, that small little building was hit by a truck, which went through the fence and smashed a giant hole in the wall of it.

And do you know that since then, very recently, my parents have gotten a divorce. And also I've had religious OCD-like spiritual attacks and pervasive bad thoughts about God. I also had a problem getting free of a certain addictive habitual sin, which I shall not mention because it is utterly disgusting, which compacted the previous problem.

So if you think praying to angels and the saints or Mary is okay, think again. You are cursing yourself your family and opening yourselves up to demonic attack.

 

[aintzaJainkoari]

So lets see. Praying to the saints, Mary, angels, or anyone/anything other than God Himself is these:

Idolatry- even though you are not worshipping them, it's still idolatry and idol worship if you pray to them while looking using a picture or cross, and sacrificing to idols if you put e.g. a candle or something else there by it, and can open up sexual sin problems, which are another form of idolatry

Divination/Witchcraft- communication with the dead or supernatural other than God, or praying or using any supernatural or physical power besides God alone to get what you need or want, whether or not it is malicious or intentional

Is done "according to the traditions of this world rather than on Christ."

 

[Assisi]

IWhen I see references to books, chapter and verse, along with an interpretation of what they mean, I'm quite suspicious.

I understand what you mean, I have read some pretty weird and heretical interpretations in my time. But with some topics we need to have this interpretation next to the line so we know which part of the verse the apologist is attributing as supporting their argument. The same would have to be done when pointing out passages which support the doctrine of the Trinity because there is no one line which says - 'this is it'.

The following interpretation is a bit out there, don't you think?

"1 Cor. 12:12,27; Rom. 12:5; Col. 3:15; Eph. 4:4 - we are the members of the one body of Christ, supernaturally linked together by our partaking of the Eucharist."

No, actually I don't. Rom 12:5 we are 'individually members one of another.' This seems to suggest a supernatural link to me...what does it suggest to you?
I used 1 Cor 12:12-27 in my first post to support my beliefs of a supernatural link.
Eph 4 and Col 3:15...again it's talking about our 'oneness'.

Are you contending that the link which makes us one is not supernatural? I think it IS supernatural, because it is of the Spirit.

and the one below is very wishy-washy in theory too, don't you think?

"Matt. 17:3; Mark 9:4; Luke 9:30 - Jesus converses with "deceased" Moses and Elijah. They are more alive than the saints on earth." Surely Jesus and the disciples are specially chosen to talk with Moses and Elijah? If not, then we all could be judging one another come jugment day?

Wishy washy? To demonstrate that those who have gone before us to Christ are alive and not dead? I don't think so. Wishy washy to show that their existence is not entirely shielded from us?
Was Christ sinning by 'talking to the dead'??
I don't really understand how you have connected this to judgement day... God will be our Judge.

Also, these are some in a large list of Scriptures. Not the only Scriptural support we have for our view.

Tyndale, I am enjoying debating this with you. I pray that this discussion will draw us both closer to Christ who is the Truth.

 

[Assisi]

Another thing: my grandmother is Catholic and prays to the saints. I've heard her "favorite saint" is St. Jude.

Do you want to know something else? She has terrible health problems: stomach problems, headaches, coughing, she is hardly ever feeling well, she recently had a knot in one of her ovaries and had to have it removed.

My grandmother took me and my brothers and sister to pray for my parents, since they were having marital problems. She took us to a small Catholic "church" about a year ago. It was just a one-room small building in which you bought a candle, lit it, said a prayer in front of a small statue of Jesus and many pictures of the saints, then set the candle there.

If I had known back then that that was idolatry, which it was, one, because Jesus said make no image of Himself so to not subtract from His glory, and two, because the placing the candle there is equal to sacrificing to a false god on an altar, then I would not have participated in it. By the way, that small little building was hit by a truck, which went through the fence and smashed a giant hole in the wall of it.

And do you know that since then, very recently, my parents have gotten a divorce.

So if you think praying to angels and the saints or Mary is okay, think again. You are cursing yourself and opening yourself up to demonic attack.

I'm sorry to hear about your parents divorce. I pray that you and your family can experience Christ's healing.

 

[PaladinValer]

With permission from both the OP and those Catholics currently responding, may I enter into this since the veneration of the Saints is a part of my church as well?

 

[aintzaJainkoari]

sure

 

[Assisi]

With permission from both the OP and those Catholics currently responding, may I enter into this since the veneration of the Saints is a part of my church as well?

It's okay with little old me...

Like you said, the majority of Christians practice this, it's not just a Catholic thing. I hope you can join in.

 

[aintzaJainkoari]

Like you said, the majority of Christians practice this, it's not just a Catholic thing.

Okay, stop using arguments like these, they are built on the Appeal to Popularity and Appeal to Authority fallacies.

It doesn't matter how many people practice these things, or if some respected person in the church said they're okay. If God does not teach it or agree with it in His Word, it's wrong.

 

[Assisi]

Okay, stop using arguments like these, they are built on the Appeal to Popularity and Appeal to Authority fallacies.

It doesn't matter how many people practice these things, or if some respected person in the church said they're okay. If God does not teach it or agree with it in His Word, it's wrong.

I used this as an argument as to why people other than Catholics should be allowed to enjoy this debate, not as an argument to support my claim. I think you'll find that my arguments in this thread have been based entirely on Scripture and basic logic.

 

[PaladinValer]

First off, my thanks to both aintzaJainkoari and to Assisi for permission. Since I am Anglican and despite my church is in agreement with Assisi's, I did not want to breach protocol.

It's okay with little old me...

Like you said, the majority of Christians practice this, it's not just a Catholic thing. I hope you can join in.

Okay, stop using arguments like these, they are built on the Appeal to Popularity and Appeal to Authority fallacies.

Um, she was referring to my joining since I am Anglican.

Fallacy of Straw Man.

I believe that the saints and the angels already pray for us, but that communication with the dead is considered divination.

They are not dead; they are alive. Soul death/sleep is not orthodox.

And it doesn't matter if they wrote that or not on the tombs, they are still wrong.

You missed the point. It shows that the practice is ancient. And the fact that no one condemned it suggests that it wasn't heretical like there were condemnations of very early heresies like Gnosticism, Sabellianism, and Judaizerism.

My grandmother is Catholic and prays to the saints. I've heard her "favorite saint" is St. Jude.

How wonderful! Mine is St. Joseph the Betrothed myself. Perfect match for me on many levels.

Do you want to know something else? She has terrible health problems: stomach problems, headaches, coughing, she is hardly ever feeling well, she recently had a knot in one of her ovaries and had to have it removed.

I'm sorry to hear that, but what does this have to do with your argument?

My grandmother took me and my brothers and sister to pray for my parents, since they were having marital problems. She took us to a small Catholic "church" about a year ago. It was just a one-room small building in which you bought a candle, lit it, said a prayer in front of a small statue of Jesus and many pictures of the saints, then set the candle there.

Sure it was a parish? Sounds more like a shrine; there is a difference, you know.

If I had known back then that that was idolatry, which it was,

Again, you've mixed up latria and doulia (and there's hyperdoulia when it comes to the Blessed Ever-Virgin St. Mary the Christokos and Theotokos, Mother of God, Queen of Heaven, and Ark of Salvation). Those two words are right in Scripture, so you cannot say "well that's just 'Tradition;' you need to now prove to us that the two mean the same thing.

one, because Jesus said make no image of Himself so to not subtract from His glory,

Where?

And you realize that all humans are ikons (Septuagint of Genesis 1) of God?

and two, because the placing the candle there is equal to sacrificing to a false god on an altar,

Either prove latria is equal to doulia or recant.

then I would not have participated in it. By the way, that small little building was hit by a truck, which went through the fence and smashed a giant hole in the wall of it.

Fallacy of Slippery Slope. If you want to quote fallacies, you better not fall into them either!

And do you know that since then, very recently, my parents have gotten a divorce.

Argumentum ad misercordiam!

And also I've had religious OCD-like spiritual attacks and pervasive bad thoughts about God. I also had a problem getting free of a certain addictive habitual sin, which I shall not mention because it is utterly disgusting, which compacted the previous problem.

See my immediate above reply: Argumentum ad misercordiam.

So if you think praying to angels and the saints or Mary is okay, think again. You are cursing yourself your family and opening yourselves up to demonic attack.

Like your false accusations?

Like I said: prove latria is the same as doulia or recant.

So lets see. Praying to the saints, Mary, angels, or anyone/anything other than God Himself is these:

Idolatry- even though you are not worshipping them, it's still idolatry and idol worship if you pray to them while looking using a picture or cross, and sacrificing to idols if you put e.g. a candle or something else there by it, and can open up sexual sin problems, which are another form of idolatry

Divination/Witchcraft- communication with the dead or supernatural other than God, or praying or using any supernatural or physical power besides God alone to get what you need or want, whether or not it is malicious or intentional

Is done "according to the traditions of this world rather than on Christ."

Latria? Yes. Doulia? No. Even hyperdoulia is a resounding no.

 

[Tyndale]

The following interpretation is a bit out there, don't you think?
"1 Cor. 12:12,27; Rom. 12:5; Col. 3:15; Eph. 4:4 - we are the members of the one body of Christ, supernaturally linked together by our partaking of the Eucharist."

No, actually I don't. Rom 12:5 we are 'individually members one of another.' This seems to suggest a supernatural link to me...what does it suggest to you?
I used 1 Cor 12:12-27 in my first post to support my beliefs of a supernatural link.
Eph 4 and Col 3:15...again it's talking about our 'oneness'.

Are you contending that the link which makes us one is not supernatural? I think it IS supernatural, because it is of the Spirit.

It's the supernatural claim to us being one because of the Eucharist, I was addressing Assisi, as you well know. I have no qualms about Christians becoming one in Christ through repentance. Born again Christians become Christ's Saints. So, do we start praying for our mams and dads to intervene too?

and the one below is very wishy-washy in theory too, don't you think?

"Matt. 17:3; Mark 9:4; Luke 9:30 - Jesus converses with "deceased" Moses and Elijah. They are more alive than the saints on earth."

Wishy washy? To demonstrate that those who have gone before us to Christ are alive and not dead? I don't think so. Wishy washy to show that their existence is not entirely shielded from us?
Was Christ sinning by 'talking to the dead'??
I don't really understand how you have connected this to judgement day... God will be our Judge.

No it's wishy -washy, because it's used to back up praying to Romes canonized Saints, when in fact Christ was only talking to Moses and Elijah. These verses do not tell anyone to pray to Moses, Elijah, or any other known prophet or Saint. That's what is wishy-washy theology!

 

[Assisi]

It's the supernatural claim to us being one because of the Eucharist, I was addressing Assisi, as you well know. I have no qualms about Christians becoming one in Christ through repentance. Born again Christians become Christ's Saints. So, do we start praying for our mams and dads to intervene too?

Oh, the Eucharist is the part you dispute. I'm not being coy in this debate, I like good old hearty, honest, charitable debate. Sure, I agree that the passages do not mention the Eucharist. While the Eucharist is part of this supernatural bond (in my belief), I saw that part of their interpretation as secondary to the fact that the supernatural bond within members of the Church exists at all. Which seems a more important argument in this debate than whether or not the Eucharist is a part of that bond. The fact that this bond exists is central to this debate.
As for saints (who haven't been canonised) praying for us, of course they can - and we can ask them too. We don't believe we can assume that those we love are in heaven, but I have to admit that I ask my child to pray for me - especially in my grief.

No it's wishy -washy, because it's used to back up praying to Romes canonized Saints, when in fact Christ was only talking to Moses and Elijah. These verses do not tell anyone to pray to Moses, Elijah, or any other known prophet or Saint. That's what is wishy-washy theology!

Remember, Tyndale, that the transfiguration is used as an example to demonstrate one point in the argument. We are using Scripture and logic here (just like we have to with the doctrine of the Trinity). No one verse tells us that God is a triune God, likewise no one verse tells us to ask the intercession of the saints. This verse does demonstrate that those in heaven with God are truly alive, not dead, and that 'talking' to them (through Christ) is not the same as divination. That is all that is claimed by this verse.

We are not commanded to ask the saints to intercede for us, and we are not required to do so. But those of us who do, are not sinning by doing so.

 

[Tyndale]

No one verse tells us that God is a triune God, likewise no one verse tells us to ask the intercession of the saints.

Precisely Assisi, however there are verses which tell us how to pray and who to pray to and it doesn't support chants or mention prayers to Saints. Searching for verses to back up praying to Saints undermines the verses which tell us how to pray to our Father which art in Heaven. Searching for verses which support the Saints to intercede on our behalf, undermines those verses which tell us that Christ is the only way unto the Father.

Man has always tried to find his own way to heaven. He's stubborn and doesn't listen to the instructions give by our dear Lord.

 

[IgnatiusOfAntioch]

Jesus said make no image of Himself.

Someone has been lying you son. Jesus never said any such thing. There are many people who hate the Catholic Church and will tell any kind of lie to damage it and pull people away from it. Please, if someone says things against the Catholic Church, check it out for yourself. If it turns out that they aren't telling the Truth, get away from them as fast as you can.

Also, if you want to truely follow Jesus, ask him to help you discern the Truth. Heavenly Father, I believe that you sent your only Son, Jesus Christ to save us and that he founded His Church to hwlp us. Lord, open my eyes and lead me to the pillar and foundation of Truth.

May the peace Jesus Christ, the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you always.

Your brother in Christ.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

In short, most Christians ask people to pray for them. Catholics ask people in Heaven to pray for us because they are at the throne of God offering our prayers up with incense to God.

The scripture support for this is in Revelation 5:1-8 and Revelation 8:3-4.

The saints are our prayer partners in Heaven.

It says in the Bible that wherever 2 or more are gathered God is there in their presence.

Well, if you were stranded alone on an island how would you be able to gather 2 or more to pray? The only way would be if you asked for the intercession of the saints in Heaven to be your prayer partners.

 

[Assisi]

Precisely Assisi, however there are verses which tell us how to pray and who to pray to and it doesn't support chants or mention prayers to Saints. Searching for verses to back up praying to Saints undermines the verses which tell us how to pray to our Father which art in Heaven. Searching for verses which support the Saints to intercede on our behalf, undermines those verses which tell us that Christ is the only way unto the Father.

Man has always tried to find his own way to heaven. He's stubborn and doesn't listen to the instructions give by our dear Lord.

Your argument would hold weight if we prayed to saints instead of to God. But we don't. The Lord has indeed taught us how to pray, Catholics pray the 'Pater' or the Lord's prayer at every Mass and most pray it every time they set aside time for personal prayer. 'let us pray with confidence to the Father, in the words our Saviour gave us...'

Asking saints to pray with us is no different to asking other Christians to pray with us. It is not about trying to get to heaven our own way. Jesus is the Way.

 

[Catholic Christian]

To those of you who believe pray to saints or Mary, can you give me reasons, or Scriptural support of this?

I don't understand this practice. It seems to contradicts Christianity.

Can anyone explain this to me?

peace to you
from Catholic Crusader

I will try. First, let me illustrate a point:

1. When did Jesus tell the Apostles to write the New Testament? He didn't, according to the Bible.
2. When did Jesus specifically use the word, "Trinity"? He didn't, according to the Bible.

So when people ask "when did Jesus tell us to pray to Mary", and other similar questions, my reply is "He didn't, and it doesn't matter." The point is that there are Biblical "principals" on which Christian teachings are based. Not everything is “specifically” stated in black and white in the Scriptures. As I said, the word "Trinity" is not in the Bible but most Christians believe in the Trinity.

So, what about prayer to Mary and the saints in heaven? Those in heaven pray with us and for us, as in the book of Revelation when John sees that "the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev. 5:8). A prayer is a request. When we pray to Mary and the saints in heaven, we are asking them to pray for us, the same way non-Catholic Christians ask their friends or family to pray for them.
Question: When you ask your friends or family to pray for you, does that take away from Jesus or his role as mediator? Of course not, and neither does praying to our brother and sisters in heaven. Because he is the only God-man and the Mediator of the New Covenant, Jesus is the only mediator between man and God (1 Tim. 2:5), but this in no way means we cannot or should not ask our fellow Christians to pray with us and for us (1 Tim. 2:1–4). In particular, we should ask the intercession of those Christians in heaven, who have already had their sanctification completed, for "[t]he prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects" (Jas. 5:16). The family of God transcends death: You are still a Christian even when you are in heaven, and you can still pray for your brothers and sisters when you are there. Catholics believe Jesus when he says, "He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive" (Luke 20:38).

Hebrews 12: 22-24 says that as we approach God, Jesus and the angels, we also approach "the spirits of righteous men made perfect". In other words, THE SAINTS. "But they can't hear us" you may say. Wrong. As Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. For example, in Revelation 5:8, John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.

I invite you to read this a better explanation:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.as

God bless

 

[Brennin]

Again, you've mixed up latria and doulia (and there's hyperdoulia when it comes to the Blessed Ever-Virgin St. Mary the Christokos and Theotokos, Mother of God, Queen of Heaven, and Ark of Salvation).

That is a fine exercise in kakodoxy. There is no "queen of heaven" or "mother of god" as Jeremiah and Isaiah make clear.

 

[PaladinValer]

That is a fine exercise in kakodoxy. There is no "queen of heaven" or "mother of god" as Jeremiah and Isaiah make clear.

Jesus is God.

St. Mary the Theotokos is Jesus' Mommy.

Therefore, St. Mary the Theotokos is the Mother of God.

Furthermore, the queen is the mother of the king.

Jesus is the King.

Therefore, Mary is the Queen.

Fin.