Question for Catholics

[Brennin]

Catholics do not believe Mary to be God and we do not worship her as such! We recognize her for who she is and her role in God's plan for salvation.

Mary's role in Christianity was to give birth to Jesus Christ, no more and no less.

 

[CaDan]

Mary's role in Christianity was to give birth to Jesus Christ, no more and no less.

It's kind of a big role. Not the starring role, certainly, but more than being just another extra in the "cast of thousands."

 

[WarriorAngel]

I still don't see that it tells us to pray to them.

In most of those verses it was talking about people who were still alive praying to God for each other, or just respecting and honoring the saints/elders/etc., but not to pray to them.
And concerning the angels, most of those say that the angels guard us, but it doesn't say to worship them or pray to them.

Prayers, or conversation with the Saints are petitions for them to pray.

Normally you would not pick up a phone, call your friend and say 'Pray for me.' then hang up...
Well, you might, but it wouldn't very nice.

So prayer [which means conversation and doesnt mean worship] to a Saint is our way of saying 'Hi' and then honoring their position near the Lord, by mentioning the faith we have they are with Him. Then we ask for our petitions to be requested thru them [their prayer] to God.

You can do the very same thing with any person you know.

And if anyone denies that we may ask others, then they are forbidding what scriptures tells us we must do. Pray for one another.

As for myself, the Saints have answered my petitions many times for me to think otherwise.

 

[Brennin]

It's kind of a big role. Not the starring role, certainly, but more than being just another extra in the "cast of thousands."

We are in agreement on that point.

 

[LLWHA]

Jesus taught His Followers how to pray.


As normal most all that call themselves His followers do not do as He instructed and follow the traditions of men and churches the things Jesus hates they just LOVE to do.

Matthew. 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the tax-collectors the same?
5:47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more [than others]? do not even the tax-collectors so?
5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven IS perfect.
6:1 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen by them: otherwise ye have NO reward from your Father which is in heaven.
6:2 Therefore when thou doest [thine] alms, do NOT sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites DO in the churches and in the streets, that they may have glory from MEN. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
6:3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:
6:4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret Himself shall reward thee openly.
6:5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt NOT be as the hypocrites [ARE]: for they love to pray standing in the churches and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
6:6But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and WHEN THOU HAST SHUT THY DOOR, pray to thy Father in private; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
6:7 But when ye pray, use NOT vain repetitions, as the heathen [DO]: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
6:8 Be NOT ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, BEFORE ye ask Him.
6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be Thy name.
6:10 Thy Kingdom come. Thy Will be done in earth, as [it is] in heaven.
6:11 Give us this day our daily bread.
6:12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
6:13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For Thine is the Kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

 

[LLWHA]

She is queen of heaven because her Son is our King!

She could have said no and rejected the will of God the way most of us do probably on a daily basis...but she didn't. She was obedient and her "yes" brought forth the possibility of the salvation of us all. How can we ignore her role as the Mother of our Savior? This was God's will and thanks be to God for her obedience!

Jeremiah 7:18 The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead [their] dough, to make wafers to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke Me to anger.
7:19 Do they provoke Me to anger? saith the "I AM": [do they] not [provoke] themselves to the confusion of their own faces?
7:20 Therefore thus saith the Lord "I AM"; Behold, Mine anger and My fury shall be poured out upon this place, upon man, and upon beast, and upon the trees of the field, and upon the fruit of the ground; and it shall burn, and shall not be quenched.

44:19 And when we burned incense (or candles) to the queen of heaven, and poured out drink offerings unto her, did we make her wafers (with I.H.S. on them) to worship her, and pour out drink offerings (wine) unto her, without our men?
44:20 Then Jeremiah said unto all the people, to the men, and to the women, and to all the people which had given him [that] answer, saying,
44:21 The incense that ye burned in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem, ye, and your fathers, your kings, and your princes, and the people of the land, did not the "I AM" remember them, and came it [not] into His mind?
44:22 So that the "I AM" could no longer bear, because of the evil of your doings, [and] because of the abominations which ye have committed; therefore is your land a desolation, and an astonishment, and a curse, without an inhabitant, as at this day.

44:25 Thus saith the "I AM" Lord of hosts, the God of Israel, saying; Ye and your wives have both spoken with your mouths, and fulfilled with your hand, saying, We will surely perform our vows that we have vowed, to burn incense (or candles) to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her: ye will surely accomplish your vows, and surely perform your vows.

This Mary worship goes back to Babylonian pagan fertility goddess Ishtar of the Babylonian Mystery Religion of Sun-worship on Sundays.

When the Babylonians lost a great war they moved to Rome and brought this evil with them.

Koran Sura 17:5. When the first of the warnings came to pass, We sent against you (Jerusalem) Our servants given to terrible warfare (the Babylonians - king [SIZE=+1]Nebuchadnezzarfile://G:\Jah\jere.htm[SIZE=+1]): they entered the very inmost parts of your homes and it was a warning (completely) fulfilled.
6. Then did We grant you the Return as against them: We gave you increase in resources and sons, and made you the more numerous in man-power.
7. If ye did well, ye did well for yourselves; if ye did evil, (ye did it) against yourselves. So when the second of the warnings came to pass, (We permitted your enemies) to disfigure your faces, and to enter your Temple as they* had entered it before, and to visit with destruction all that fell into their power.
[/SIZE]

That is part of how this Mary worship got into the Roman church along with the Egyptian goddess Isis and her traditions.

http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/monstr.htm

God hates this fraud.

Mary could have called herself a Queen on earth but there is NO queen in Heaven.




[/SIZE]

 

[Brennin]

Jeremiah 7:18 The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead [their] dough, to make wafers to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke Me to anger.
7:19 Do they provoke Me to anger? saith the "I AM": [do they] not [provoke] themselves to the confusion of their own faces?
7:20 Therefore thus saith the Lord "I AM"; Behold, Mine anger and My fury shall be poured out upon this place, upon man, and upon beast, and upon the trees of the field, and upon the fruit of the ground; and it shall burn, and shall not be quenched.

44:19 And when we burned incense (or candles) to the queen of heaven, and poured out drink offerings unto her, did we make her wafers (with I.H.S. on them) to worship her, and pour out drink offerings (wine) unto her, without our men?
44:20 Then Jeremiah said unto all the people, to the men, and to the women, and to all the people which had given him [that] answer, saying,
44:21 The incense that ye burned in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem, ye, and your fathers, your kings, and your princes, and the people of the land, did not the "I AM" remember them, and came it [not] into His mind?
44:22 So that the "I AM" could no longer bear, because of the evil of your doings, [and] because of the abominations which ye have committed; therefore is your land a desolation, and an astonishment, and a curse, without an inhabitant, as at this day.

44:25 Thus saith the "I AM" Lord of hosts, the God of Israel, saying; Ye and your wives have both spoken with your mouths, and fulfilled with your hand, saying, We will surely perform our vows that we have vowed, to burn incense (or candles) to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her: ye will surely accomplish your vows, and surely perform your vows.

This Mary worship goes back to Babylonian pagan fertility goddess Ishtar of the Babylonian Mystery Religion of Sun-worship on Sundays.

When the Babylonians lost a great war they moved to Rome and brought this evil with them.

Koran Sura 17:5. When the first of the warnings came to pass, We sent against you (Jerusalem) Our servants given to terrible warfare (the Babylonians - king [SIZE=+1]Nebuchadnezzarfile://G:\Jah\jere.htm[SIZE=+1]): they entered the very inmost parts of your homes and it was a warning (completely) fulfilled.
6. Then did We grant you the Return as against them: We gave you increase in resources and sons, and made you the more numerous in man-power.
7. If ye did well, ye did well for yourselves; if ye did evil, (ye did it) against yourselves. So when the second of the warnings came to pass, (We permitted your enemies) to disfigure your faces, and to enter your Temple as they* had entered it before, and to visit with destruction all that fell into their power.
[/SIZE]

That is part of how this Mary worship got into the Roman church along with the Egyptian goddess Isis and her traditions.

http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/monstr.htm

God hates this fraud.

Mary could have called herself a Queen on earth but there is NO queen in Heaven.




[/SIZE]

Don't pester mariodules with relevant scripture. Their moldy traditions trump the word of God!

 

[Catholic Christian]

Fundamentalists often challenge the Catholic practice of asking saints and angels to pray on our behalf. But the Bible directs us to invoke those in heaven and ask them to pray with us.

Thus, in Psalm 103 we pray, "Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!" (Ps. 103:20–21). And in the opening verses of Psalms 148 we pray, "Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!"

Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us. In the book of Revelation, John sees that "the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev. 5:8). Thus the saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth.

Angels do the same thing: "[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God" (Rev. 8:3–4).

Jesus himself warned us not to offend small children, because their guardian angels have guaranteed intercessory access to the Father: "See that you do not despise one of these little ones; for I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven" (Matt. 18:10).

Because he is the only God-man and the Mediator of the New Covenant, Jesus is the only mediator between man and God (1 Tim. 2:5), but this in no way means we cannot or should not ask our fellow Christians to pray with us and for us (1 Tim. 2:1–4). In particular, we should ask the intercession of those Christians in heaven, who have already had their sanctification completed, for "[t]he prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects" (Jas. 5:16).

 

[Catholic Christian]

That is part of how this Mary worship got into the Roman church along with the Egyptian goddess Isis and her traditions.

Idolatry (from the Catechism Of The Catholic Church):
http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect2chpt1.htm

2112 - The first commandment condemns polytheism. It requires man neither to believe in, nor to venerate, other divinities than the one true God. Scripture constantly recalls this rejection of "idols, [of] silver and gold, the work of men's hands. They have mouths, but do not speak; eyes, but do not see." These empty idols make their worshippers empty: "Those who make them are like them; so are all who trust in them."42 God, however, is the "living God" who gives life and intervenes in history.

2113 - Idolatry not only refers to false pagan worship. It remains a constant temptation to faith. Idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God. Man commits idolatry whenever he honors and reveres a creature in place of God, whether this be gods or demons (for example, satanism), power, pleasure, race, ancestors, the state, money, etc. Jesus says, "You cannot serve God and mammon."44 Many martyrs died for not adoring "the Beast"45 refusing even to simulate such worship. Idolatry rejects the unique Lordship of God; it is therefore incompatible with communion with God.

2114 - Human life finds its unity in the adoration of the one God. The commandment to worship the Lord alone integrates man and saves him from an endless disintegration. Idolatry is a perversion of man's innate religious sense. An idolater is someone who "transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God."

 

[Catholic Christian]

You forgot to post the rest of the story. Solomon becomes angry at Adonijah for asking Bathsheba to intercede for him and has him executed. So, by way of analogy, when someone asks Mary to intercede with Jesus Christ for him, Jesus' wrath is kindled against the person and he suffers spiritual death.

The difference is that Mary - or ANYONE in heaven for that matter - would not ask Jesus to do something wrong.

Besisdes, your point does not change the fact that In the Davidic Kingdoms, the Kings mother was always the queen, and an intercessor.

 

[Catholic Christian]

Mary's role in Christianity was to give birth to Jesus Christ, no more and no less.

I'm curious: Would you go up to your OWN mother and say: "You're role in my life was to give birth to me; no more, no less"? I have a funny feeling your mom would not appreciate that very much.

If God chose her out of all time to bear His Son, and if Scripture says of her "All generations shall call me blessed", should we not give her the honor she deserves, based in the singular honor God saw fit to bestow upon her?

 

[Brennin]

I'm curious: Would you go up to your OWN mother and say: "You're role in my life was to give birth to me; no more, no less"? I have a funny feeling your mom would not appreciate that very much.

If God chose her out of all time to bear His Son, and if Scripture says of her "All generations shall call me blessed", should we not give her the honor she deserves, based in the singular honor God saw fit to bestow upon her?

I included the clause "in Christianity" for a reason.

 

[Brennin]

The difference is that Mary - or ANYONE in heaven for that matter - would not ask Jesus to do something wrong.

Besisdes, your point does not change the fact that In the Davidic Kingdoms, the Kings mother was always the queen, and an intercessor.

There is only one instance of a "queen mother" in the Hebrew Scriptures and that is the one I cited. Moreover, it does not support the false claim that Mary is "queen of heaven," despite your wishful thinking. Jesus did not rule Israel in the "Davidic style" and he did not address Mary as "queen mother."

 

[Catholic Christian]

There is only one instance of a "queen mother" in the Hebrew Scriptures and that is the one I cited. Moreover, it does not support the false claim that Mary is "queen of heaven," despite your wishful thinking. Jesus did not rule Israel in the "Davidic style" and he did not address Mary as "queen mother."

To understand Mary's Queenship, you must understand Jewish culture. In the Davidic Kingdom, the mother of the King was always the Queen. The word in MIddle Eastern nations for this was the "Gabirah", or "queen mother".


Likewise, Jesus is the "son of David" and is the new King. It goes without saying, therefore, that his mother is the queen - the Gabirah. Any Jew would know that, ESPECIALLY the apostles.

Understanding Mary as queen mother sheds light on her important intercessory role in the Christian life. Just like the queen mother of the Davidic kingdom, Mary serves as advocate for the people in the Kingdom of God today. Thus, we should approach our queen mother with confidence, knowing that she carries our petitions to her royal son and that he responds to her as Solomon did to Bathsheba: "I will never refuse you."

I suggest you read this link:
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1998/9812fea2.asp

 

[Brennin]

To understand Mary's Queenship, you must understand Jewish culture. In the Davidic Kingdom, the mother of the King was always the Queen. The word in MIddle Eastern nations for this was the "Gabirah", or "queen mother".


Likewise, Jesus is the "son of David" and is the new King. It goes without saying, therefore, that his mother is the queen - the Gabirah. Any Jew would know that, ESPECIALLY the apostles.

Understanding Mary as queen mother sheds light on her important intercessory role in the Christian life. Just like the queen mother of the Davidic kingdom, Mary serves as advocate for the people in the Kingdom of God today. Thus, we should approach our queen mother with confidence, knowing that she carries our petitions to her royal son and that he responds to her as Solomon did to Bathsheba: "I will never refuse you."

I suggest you read this link:
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1998/9812fea2.asp

I have already dealt a blow to that anemic RC apologia.

 

[Catholic Christian]

I have already dealt a blow to that anemic RC apologia.

I have noticed that you use a lot of terms which bring fighting and battle to mind. Discussion between Christians of different faith traditions should be charitable, and done with an eye toward better understanding. Why do you seem to be so ready to brawl, always on the offensive?

 

[Technocrat2010]

I have already dealt a blow to that anemic RC apologia.

Where?

 

[Technocrat2010]

There is only one instance of a "queen mother" in the Hebrew Scriptures and that is the one I cited. Moreover, it does not support the false claim that Mary is "queen of heaven," despite your wishful thinking. Jesus did not rule Israel in the "Davidic style" and he did not address Mary as "queen mother."

Correct. Jesus did not rule Israel in the "Davidic style".

Why?

Because His kingdom is not of this world. His Kingdom is that of Heaven, not of Israel.

 

[Gary51]

Have you ever asked anyone to pray for you?

Only earth bound living people.

Not dead people... as they can't hear prayer.

 

[Catholic Christian]

Take 98


This had already been explained by St. Thomas:

Prayer is offered to a person in two ways: one as though to be granted by himself, another as to be obtained through him. In the first way we pray to God alone, because all our prayers ought to be directed to obtaining grace and glory which God alone gives, according to those words of the Psalm (lxxxiii, 12): 'The Lord will give grace and glory.' But in the second way we pray to the holy angels and to men not that God may learn our petition through them, but that by their prayers and merits our prayers may be efficacious. Wherefore it is said in the Apocalypse (viii, 4): 'And the smoke of the incense of the prayers of the saints ascended up before God from the hand of the angel' (Summ. Theol., II-II, Q. lxxxiii, a. 4). ​

The reasonableness of the Catholic teaching and practice cannot be better stated than in St. Jerome's words:

If the Apostles and Martyrs, while still in the body, can pray for others, at a time when they must still be anxious for themselves, how much more after their crowns, victories, and triumphs are won! One man, Moses, obtains from God pardon for six hundred thousand men in arms; and Stephen, the imitator of the Lord, and the first martyr in Christ, begs forgiveness for his persecutors; and shall their power be less after having begun to be with Christ? The Apostle Paul declares that two hundred three score and sixteen souls, sailing with him, were freely given him; and, after he is dissolved and has begun to be with Christ, shall he close his lips, and not be able to utter a word in behalf of those who throughout the whole world believed at his preaching of the Gospel? And shall the living dog Vigilantius be better than that dead lion? ("Contra Vigilant.", n. 6, in P. L., XXIII, 344). ​

Great quotes. In Catholic understanding, prayer is a "request". When we pray to those who have gone to heaven ahead of us, we are making a "request" of them. And what is that request? It is that THEY pray for US. Protestants do it all the time, but they limit themselves to making this request only of people still on earth. In this, the protestant view of the Church is very narrow. You see, Romans 8: 38-39 says: "neither death nor life.. ..present nor the future.. ..height nor depth.. ..will be able to separate us...".; The Family of God transcends death. We ALL LIVE IN CHRIST.

It is important to note that praying to saints is not a requirement of Catholics, just an option: Just as a protestant doesnt HAVE to ask a friend to pray for them, but they can

Heb 12: 22-24 says that as we approach God, Jesus and the angels, we also approach "the spirits of righteous men made perfect". In other words, THE SAINTS

BUT, can they Hear Us? Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. For example, in Revelation 5:8, John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.

Oh, the intercession of fellow Christians in heaven also clearly does not interfere with Christ’s unique mediatorship because in the four verses immediately preceding 1 Timothy 2:5, Paul says that Christians should interceed: "First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and pleasing to God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:1–4). Clearly, intercessory prayers offered by Christians on behalf of others is something "good and pleasing to God"

Biblical references:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp