Question arising from the Calvinism/predestined threads

[98cwitr]

That is not correct. Joshua told them they could not serve the true God AND these false idols. The people responded that they would serve the true God only.

Jos 24:19 And Joshua said unto the people, Ye cannot serve the LORD: for he is an holy God; he is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins.
20 If ye forsake the LORD, and serve strange gods, then he will turn and do you hurt, and consume you, after that he hath done you good.
21 And the people said unto Joshua, Nay; but we will serve the LORD.
22 And Joshua said unto the people, Ye are witnesses against yourselves that ye have chosen you the LORD, to serve him. And they said, We are witnesses.
23 Now therefore put away, said he, the strange gods which are among you, and incline your heart unto the LORD God of Israel.
24 And the people said unto Joshua, The LORD our God will we serve, and his voice will we obey.
25 So Joshua made a covenant with the people that day, and set them a statute and an ordinance in Shechem.
26 And Joshua wrote these words in the book of the law of God, and took a great stone, and set it up there under an oak, that was by the sanctuary of the LORD.
27 And Joshua said unto all the people, Behold, this stone shall be a witness unto us; for it hath heard all the words of the LORD which he spake unto us: it shall be therefore a witness unto you, lest ye deny your God.
28 So Joshua let the people depart, every man unto his inheritance.

And did they keep their promise?

 

[com7fy8]

Did they keep their promise? Joshua 24:31, Judges 1:1-2:9 It says they served the LORD. So, I would say yes they kept their promise

 

[Winman]

Did they keep their promise? Joshua 24:31, Judges 1:1-2:9 It says they served the LORD. So, I would say yes they kept their promise

Yes, those people who made the covenant with Joshua kept their promise and served the Lord until they all died. It was a new generation that departed from the Lord.

Jud 2:7 And the people served the LORD all the days of Joshua, and all the days of the elders that outlived Joshua, who had seen all the great works of the LORD, that he did for Israel.
8 And Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of the LORD, died, being an hundred and ten years old.
9 And they buried him in the border of his inheritance in Timnathheres, in the mount of Ephraim, on the north side of the hill Gaash.
10 And also all that generation were gathered unto their fathers: and there arose another generation after them, which knew not the LORD, nor yet the works which he had done for Israel.
11 And the children of Israel did evil in the sight of the LORD, and served Baalim:
12 And they forsook the LORD God of their fathers, which brought them out of the land of Egypt, and followed other gods, of the gods of the people that were round about them, and bowed themselves unto them, and provoked the LORD to anger.

The generation that came after departed from the Lord, but those who had promised to follow the Lord to Joshua kept their promise.

 

[twin1954]

Sadly, you have a different understanding of inductive Bible study than I have. You have imposed your meaning on what I stated. Inductive reading of any text - in my understanding - is to allow the text to speak for itself. All content comes from the text and the text alone. Of course there will be interpretation, but it is based on exegesis of the text. Exegesis of the text (inductive study) precedes interpretation. Application then follows.

I know what inductive study is and the principles it focuses on. One of the many problems is that it takes a passage as though it were stand alone without reference to the teaching of the whole of the Scriptures. While it does use observation and interpretation its focus is on application to me. Hence why I said it makes the Scriptures about me not about Christ. Proper exegesis of the Scriptures finds Christ in them. While the literal is true an cannot be ignored the spiritual messages is the meaning. Anyone with a third grade education can get the literal if they take time to grasp the literal meaning of the words but it takes the Spirit to show the true message that is Christ in the Scriptures. Proper exegesis will include the literal, contextual and historical along with the teaching of the Scriptures as a whole and the message of Christ and His Gospel. The Scriptures are full of life principles but they are not about life principles. They are full of practical truths but they are not about practical truths. They are filled with the history of the Jews but they are not about the history of the Jews. They are about Christ and His Gospel. He is the key that unlocks the Book.

 

[98cwitr]

Did they keep their promise? Joshua 24:31, Judges 1:1-2:9 It says they served the LORD. So, I would say yes they kept their promise

Yes, those people who made the covenant with Joshua kept their promise and served the Lord until they all died. It was a new generation that departed from the Lord.

Jud 2:7 And the people served the LORD all the days of Joshua, and all the days of the elders that outlived Joshua, who had seen all the great works of the LORD, that he did for Israel.
8 And Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of the LORD, died, being an hundred and ten years old.
9 And they buried him in the border of his inheritance in Timnathheres, in the mount of Ephraim, on the north side of the hill Gaash.
10 And also all that generation were gathered unto their fathers: and there arose another generation after them, which knew not the LORD, nor yet the works which he had done for Israel.
11 And the children of Israel did evil in the sight of the LORD, and served Baalim:
12 And they forsook the LORD God of their fathers, which brought them out of the land of Egypt, and followed other gods, of the gods of the people that were round about them, and bowed themselves unto them, and provoked the LORD to anger.

The generation that came after departed from the Lord, but those who had promised to follow the Lord to Joshua kept their promise.

Then why did Joshua say "You are not able to serve the Lord." Dont you think (assuming you have kids), you are responsible at least to some degree, for the ministry to the next generation? And if they do not listen, what kind of heart is that? We see this throughout the OT, this cyclical faith and loss of faith, and I think this is still happening today as well, unfortunately the flavor of idolatry is quite different from back then.

 

[98cwitr]

You missed the content of 14-15 and the choices made. Choice go right back to Adam in the garden, the choice of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and he CHOSE the evil.

There was no choice there. It was Eve and Adam's destiny to eat from the tree...otherwise the Tree would not have been placed there. God knew, prior to the creation of humans or the Tree, what was to take place, and created them both anyway. To say that there was a choice is to either deny God's Omniscience, or deny that He created either humans or the Tree.

 

[OzSpen]

There was no choice there. It was Eve and Adam's destiny to eat from the tree...otherwise the Tree would not have been placed there. God knew, prior to the creation of humans or the Tree, what was to take place, and created them both anyway. To say that there was a choice is to either deny God's Omniscience, or deny that He created either humans or the Tree.

God's omniscience and human choice were involved in Genesis 2:16-17. As a Calvinist, you don't seem to be able to accept what the text states.

 

[98cwitr]

God's omniscience and human choice were involved in Genesis 2:16-17. As a Calvinist, you don't seem to be able to accept what the text states.

Human choice is nothing more than a perception, unless you interpret Genesis 2:16-17 as God had no clue what Adam was going to do. Show me to what extent you believe God's omniscience was involved in this verse please, and how do you reconcile God's foreknowledge and Omnipotence with human choice and will?

 

[skypair]

Does it matter at all to my salvation/relationship with God if I either believe or don't believe in one or any of the points of Calvinism?

If you are saved, the only loss will be of rewards because you will be building Calvinism on the foundation of Jesus Christ, 1Cor 3:11-17. Calvinism is a powerless faith in that everything is in God's power to give but nothing is within our power to have. God decides everything and, rather like in Greek mythology, we can work hard all our lives but our fate is already set — heaven or hell, rich or poor, wise or foolish .. none of these is within our power to decide.

And to follow up, if it doesn't matter, why is there such contention whenever the subject is brought up? Shouldn't we be more interested and affirming in the things we have in unity than to tear each other down over non essential things that don't matter in the long run?

We have to have "unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace" but not all of us are in the bond of peace — saved. Therefore, there is contention over a salvation issue.

The biblical means of salvation, the gospel, calls for us to choose but the Calvinist "equation" is that we can't choose salvation. That and repentance and the Holy Ghost and faith have to be "given" to us by God, Himself.

So to those of us who believe that the Bible calls for us to "repent unto life," Calvinism is unscriptural. It is a "tight" system of theology .. it's just more closely related to Greek mythology than to scripture.

skypair

 

[skypair]

Human choice is nothing more than a perception, unless you interpret Genesis 2:16-17 as God had no clue what Adam was going to do. Show me to what extent you believe God's omniscience was involved in this verse please, and how do you reconcile God's foreknowledge and Omnipotence with human choice and will?

This objection comes from a lack of understanding of the trinity. Omniscience is an attribute of the Father — the Planner of all of creation. Omnipotence is the attribute of the Son — the Executor of the plan of creation. So the one who knows what Adam is going to do or not do is not the one who is directly "in touch" with Adam. In fact, we know that Christ is that Mediator between God and man and He knows things as He "learns" them from creation or from the Father.

So we see that "it repented God [Christ] that He had created man," Gen 6:6. Can you imagine God repenting of something He knew was going to happen? No. The Son is ever working on the Father's instruction. That is why He prays to His Father. That is why He can pray, "If there is another way .. yet, not My will, but Thine be done."

Think about it .. Christ really can't be a good Mediator if He knows all that the Father knows, can He? Rather, He would be like the Calvinist God creating only those that He would save, right? Robots, puppets, "yes-men."

skypair

 

[HumbleMan]

No offense, guys and girls, but I didn't start this thread to continue to the Calvinism/Free Will fight.

My main intent was to ask if belief in some doctrines, such as this, cessation of the gifts, mode of baptism, etc, was essential in salvation or were they add ons to the gospel, and if they were, why do we fight over them and cause such division.

Since this thread went into the C/FW arena, does it matter to a Calvinist if someone believes in free will and accepts Christ as their Savior, and does it matter to a free-willer (does that word exist?) if someone believes that God has called the elect and that they are one of them?

Do not both people accept that Christ is their savior and worship Him as such?

 

[98cwitr]

This objection comes from a lack of understanding of the trinity. Omniscience is an attribute of the Father — the Planner of all of creation. Omnipotence is the attribute of the Son — the Executor of the plan of creation. So the one who knows what Adam is going to do or not do is not the one who is directly "in touch" with Adam. In fact, we know that Christ is that Mediator between God and man and He knows things as He "learns" them from creation or from the Father.

So we see that "it repented God [Christ] that He had created man," Gen 6:6. Can you imagine God repenting of something He knew was going to happen? No. The Son is ever working on the Father's instruction. That is why He prays to His Father. That is why He can pray, "If there is another way .. yet, not My will, but Thine be done."

Think about it .. Christ really can't be a good Mediator if He knows all that the Father knows, can He? Rather, He would be like the Calvinist God creating only those that He would save, right? Robots, puppets, "yes-men."

skypair

The word in Gen. 6:6 is relent, not repent in my Bible at least. Are you saying that the Son did the creating days 1-6 in Gen. 1?

The concept of irresistible grace is supported by Scripture via election. I guess the disciples were "yes-men"...see John 15.

 

[JM]

No offense, guys and girls, but I didn't start this thread to continue to the Calvinism/Free Will fight.

My main intent was to ask if belief in some doctrines, such as this, cessation of the gifts, mode of baptism, etc, was essential in salvation or were they add ons to the gospel, and if they were, why do we fight over them and cause such division.

Since this thread went into the C/FW arena, does it matter to a Calvinist if someone believes in free will and accepts Christ as their Savior, and does it matter to a free-willer (does that word exist?) if someone believes that God has called the elect and that they are one of them?

Do not both people accept that Christ is their savior and worship Him as such?

Christians, even non-Calvinist Arminians, function practically as Calvinists. They say one thing but when they want someone saved they pray that God opens their heart. When bad things happen they will say, "God has a plan." If they get a new job they wanted, "God's timing is perfect." They will jump up and down trying to convince you that you have total libertarian free will but than say, "Jesus paid it all." etc.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

 

[PrincetonGuy]

I know what inductive study is and the principles it focuses on. One of the many problems is that it takes a passage as though it were stand alone without reference to the teaching of the whole of the Scriptures. While it does use observation and interpretation its focus is on application to me. Hence why I said it makes the Scriptures about me not about Christ.

These statements are severely incorrect. For an accurate discussion of what inductive Bible study is, please see the following,

Bauer, David R., and Robert A. Traina. Inductive Bible Study: A Comprehensive Guide to the Practice of Hermeneutics. Grand Rapids: Baker, 2011.

 

[OzSpen]

Human choice is nothing more than a perception, unless you interpret Genesis 2:16-17 as God had no clue what Adam was going to do. Show me to what extent you believe God's omniscience was involved in this verse please, and how do you reconcile God's foreknowledge and Omnipotence with human choice and will?

Gen 2:16-17 states,

16 But the Lord God warned him, “You may freely eat the fruit of every tree in the garden— 17 except the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. If you eat its fruit, you are sure to die (NLT).​

• Freely eat from every tree
• If he ate from the tree of the knowledge of evil, he would 'die'.
• What did he do?
• The outcome was: He ate from the evil tree and death entered the human race.

So human choice by Adam was real. He ate and suffered what God said would happen if he ate from the tee of the knowledge of evil - death.


You demand of me: 'Show me to what extent you believe God's omniscience was involved in this verse please'.



That's demonstrated by the nature of God's omniscience. He knows Himself and all other things, past, present, future, actual and possible. He knows them perfectly and from all eternity. He knows them instantaneously, immediately, simultaneously, exhaustively and truly.


How do I know? the Lord has told us how comprehensive is his omniscience (his all-knowing attribute):


Proverbs 15:3, 'The eyes of the Lord are in every place, keeping watch on the evil and the good' (ESV).

Jeremiah 23:23-24, 'Am I a God at hand, declares the Lord, and not a God far away? Can a man hide himself in secret places so that I cannot see him? declares the Lord. Do I not fill heaven and earth? declares the Lord'.

Heb 4:13, 'And no creature is hidden from his sight, but all are naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must give account'.

See also Psalm 139:1-10.


I submit to God's omniscience of what happened with the Fall into sin by Adam and Eve and God's omniscience of how Genesis 2:16-17 was implemented in God's plan for the universe, including God's giving Adam and Eve the ability to say yea or nay to good and evil.


Oz

 

[Hammster]

Gen 2:16-17 states,

16 But the Lord God warned him, “You may freely eat the fruit of every tree in the garden— 17 except the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. If you eat its fruit, you are sure to die (NLT).​

• Freely eat from every tree
• If he ate from the tree of the knowledge of evil, he would 'die'.
• What did he do?
• The outcome was: He ate from the evil tree and death entered the human race.

So human choice by Adam was real. He ate and suffered what God said would happen if he ate from the tee of the knowledge of evil - death.


You demand of me: 'Show me to what extent you believe God's omniscience was involved in this verse please'.



That's demonstrated by the nature of God's omniscience. He knows Himself and all other things, past, present, future, actual and possible. He knows them perfectly and from all eternity. He knows them instantaneously, immediately, simultaneously, exhaustively and truly.


How do I know? the Lord has told us how comprehensive is his omniscience (his all-knowing attribute):


Proverbs 15:3, 'The eyes of the Lord are in every place, keeping watch on the evil and the good' (ESV).

Jeremiah 23:23-24, 'Am I a God at hand, declares the Lord, and not a God far away? Can a man hide himself in secret places so that I cannot see him? declares the Lord. Do I not fill heaven and earth? declares the Lord'.

Heb 4:13, 'And no creature is hidden from his sight, but all are naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must give account'.

See also Psalm 139:1-10.


I submit to God's omniscience of what happened with the Fall into sin by Adam and Eve and God's omniscience of how Genesis 2:16-17 was implemented in God's plan for the universe, including God's giving Adam and Eve the ability to say yea or nay to good and evil.


Oz

Did God want the Fall to happen?

 

[OzSpen]

I know what inductive study is and the principles it focuses on. One of the many problems is that it takes a passage as though it were stand alone without reference to the teaching of the whole of the Scriptures. While it does use observation and interpretation its focus is on application to me. Hence why I said it makes the Scriptures about me not about Christ. Proper exegesis of the Scriptures finds Christ in them. While the literal is true an cannot be ignored the spiritual messages is the meaning. Anyone with a third grade education can get the literal if they take time to grasp the literal meaning of the words but it takes the Spirit to show the true message that is Christ in the Scriptures. Proper exegesis will include the literal, contextual and historical along with the teaching of the Scriptures as a whole and the message of Christ and His Gospel. The Scriptures are full of life principles but they are not about life principles. They are full of practical truths but they are not about practical truths. They are filled with the history of the Jews but they are not about the history of the Jews. They are about Christ and His Gospel. He is the key that unlocks the Book.

You seem to be exposed to the wrong kind of understanding of discovery (inductive) Bible study. At the lay level, I recommend Oletta Wald, The Joy of Discovery in Bible Study and the book that PrincetonGuy has recommended (for a more advanced level) by Bauer & Traina. Details for the Oletta Wald publications are:

[FONT=&quot]Oletta Wald 1975[FONT=&quot].[/FONT] The Joy of Discovery in Bible Study (rev. ed.). Minneapolis, Minnesota: Augsburg Publishing House,; Oletta Wald[FONT=&quot] 1976.[/FONT] The Joy of Teaching Discovery Bible Study. Minneapolis, Minnesota: Augsburg Publishing House.[/FONT]​

Last night I completed an inductive Bible study of Col 4:2-6 that I'm leading this morning and the three areas we pursue in this kind of study are:

1. Observation
2. Interpretation
3. Application

The focus is NOT on application alone. The focus is on ALL three areas. In fact, in my preparation for this study I have made sure that I have gone to cross referenced verses that assist in interpretation.

It seems that you want to impose your understanding on the text with statements such as, 'While the literal is true an (sic) cannot be ignored the spiritual messages is the meaning'. This is not true. The exegesis of the text is where one finds the 'meaning' of the text. From where do you get your 'spiritual messages' of the meaning? Is that your application?

In inductive Bible study, application is only one of three aspects and it comes AFTER the other two aspects, observation and interpretation, have taken place. I agree that some may place more emphasis on application, but I've seen that more often in a 'Life Application' Bible study and NOT in discovery, inductive Bible study.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Did God want the Fall to happen?

Why didn't you address what I wrote at #55?

 

[Hammster]

Why didn't you address what I wrote at #55?

I'll consider the question unanswered.

 

[OzSpen]

I'll consider the question unanswered.

Your response at #56 to my #55 post was a red herring logical fallacy. We cannot have a logical discussion when you continue to use this kind of illogical strategy with a logical fallacy.

The question remains unanswered because of your logical fallacy. You are not addressing the content of what I posted at #55.

When will you quit using red herring logical fallacies in your responses to me? You have done this too many times to mention over the years.

Oz