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Question arising from the Calvinism/predestined threads

Discussion in 'Baptists' started by HumbleMan, Sep 23, 2014.

  1. Hammster

    Hammster Who has believed our report? Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    Actually, it looks as if the assumption is that some will serve the Lord. And those that don't have a choice which idol they serve.

    We can argue over what the point is, but he does not say that they should choose to serve God or idols. If regeneration does come before faith, then this fits perfectly. If faith comes first, then Joshua's words need some help to fit the Arminian viewpoint. You'll have to assume something he didn't actually say.
     
  2. OzSpen

    OzSpen Regular Member

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    I have highlighted what you stated: 'He does not say that they should choose to serve God or idols'.

    To the contrary, that's exactly what the choice is that is given:
    4 “Now therefore fear the Lord and serve him in sincerity and in faithfulness. Put away the gods that your fathers served beyond the River and in Egypt, and serve the Lord. 15 And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the Lord, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.” (ESV)
    These two verses clearly give the choices:

    • The gods their fathers served vs the Lord;
    • Choose this day whom you will serve. The choices are:
    • gods your fathers served vs we will serve the Lord.
    It's amazing what you as a Calvinist will do to try to avoid the choice given here in serving the gods vs serving the Lord. God's call is to choice: Choose this day whom you will serve.


    To get any other meaning from these 2 verses imposes your meaning on it. I have engaged in an inductive study of these 2 verses to determine what they say. They do not teach the Calvinistic view of closing down choice.


    Oz
     
  3. Hammster

    Hammster Who has believed our report? Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    Actually, he says that if it's evil to serve the Lord, choose which idol they will serve. That's the unregenerate right there. It's amazing that you think highlighting certain parts of a verse makes the rest disappear.

    To get any other meaning from these 2 verses
    imposes your meaning on it. You see "choose" and think "look!!! Free will". Pshaw. In context, and looking at what's really said, leaves the Arminian view wanting.
     
  4. twin1954

    twin1954 Baptist by the Bible

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    The problem with inductive Bible study is that it makes the Scriptures about you. They are not about you they are about Christ. It also is far too easy to read into the Scriptures your presuppositions and ideas instead of exegeting them. Inductive Bible study is a poor method that appeals to the natural man because it leaves it up to man to decide what they are saying to him.
     
  5. JM

    JM Absolute Predestinarian Supporter

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    Hammster and twins explaination of Joshua 24.15 makes the most sense.
     
  6. OzSpen

    OzSpen Regular Member

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    You have not allowed the text to speak through a plain reading of the text. We can't have an amicable discussion when you do this.
     
  7. OzSpen

    OzSpen Regular Member

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    Sadly, you have a different understanding of inductive Bible study than I have. You have imposed your meaning on what I stated. Inductive reading of any text - in my understanding - is to allow the text to speak for itself. All content comes from the text and the text alone. Of course there will be interpretation, but it is based on exegesis of the text. Exegesis of the text (inductive study) precedes interpretation. Application then follows.
     
  8. OzSpen

    OzSpen Regular Member

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    Of course you would come to that conclusion because your perspective is that of a predestinarian. My inductive study of the text allows the text to speak for itself through a plain reading of the text and exegesis of the text in context.
     
  9. Hammster

    Hammster Who has believed our report? Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    Actually, I have. And I've demonstrated it. Maybe that's why you can't discuss it.
     
  10. OzSpen

    OzSpen Regular Member

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    I showed you from the text that your position is not tenable. So what do you do? You come back with this kind of one liner. Amicable, constructive conversations with you are impossible when you do this.
     
  11. Hammster

    Hammster Who has believed our report? Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    Back at ya.
     
  12. PrincetonGuy

    PrincetonGuy Veteran

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    Here is what is “actually” there:

    Joshua 24:1. Then Joshua gathered all the tribes of Israel to Shechem, and called for the elders of Israel and for their heads and their judges and their officers; and they presented themselves before God.
    2. Joshua said to all the people, “Thus says the LORD, the God of Israel, ‘From ancient times your fathers lived beyond the River, namely, Terah, the father of Abraham and the father of Nahor, and they served other gods.
    3. ‘Then I took your father Abraham from beyond the River, and led him through all the land of Canaan, and multiplied his descendants and gave him Isaac.
    4. ‘To Isaac I gave Jacob and Esau, and to Esau I gave Mount Seir to possess it; but Jacob and his sons went down to Egypt.
    5. ‘Then I sent Moses and Aaron, and I plagued Egypt by what I did in its midst; and afterward I brought you out.
    6. ‘I brought your fathers out of Egypt, and you came to the sea; and Egypt pursued your fathers with chariots and horsemen to the Red Sea.
    7. ‘But when they cried out to the LORD, He put darkness between you and the Egyptians, and brought the sea upon them and covered them; and your own eyes saw what I did in Egypt. And you lived in the wilderness for a long time.
    8. ‘Then I brought you into the land of the Amorites who lived beyond the Jordan, and they fought with you; and I gave them into your hand, and you took possession of their land when I destroyed them before you.
    9. ‘Then Balak the son of Zippor, king of Moab, arose and fought against Israel, and he sent and summoned Balaam the son of Beor to curse you.
    10. ‘But I was not willing to listen to Balaam. So he had to bless you, and I delivered you from his hand.
    11. ‘You crossed the Jordan and came to Jericho; and the citizens of Jericho fought against you, and the Amorite and the Perizzite and the Canaanite and the Hittite and the Girgashite, the Hivite and the Jebusite. Thus I gave them into your hand.
    12. ‘Then I sent the hornet before you and it drove out the two kings of the Amorites from before you, but not by your sword or your bow.
    13. 'I gave you a land on which you had not labored, and cities which you had not built, and you have lived in them; you are eating of vineyards and olive groves which you did not plant.’
    14. “Now, therefore, fear the LORD and serve Him in sincerity and truth; and put away the gods which your fathers served beyond the River and in Egypt, and serve the LORD.
    15. “If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”
    16. The people answered and said, “Far be it from us that we should forsake the LORD to serve other gods;
    17. for the LORD our God is He who brought us and our fathers up out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage, and who did these great signs in our sight and preserved us through all the way in which we went and among all the peoples through whose midst we passed.
    18. “The LORD drove out from before us all the peoples, even the Amorites who lived in the land. We also will serve the LORD, for He is our God.”
    19. Then Joshua said to the people, “You will not be able to serve the LORD, for He is a holy God. He is a jealous God; He will not forgive your transgression or your sins.
    20. “If you forsake the LORD and serve foreign gods, then He will turn and do you harm and consume you after He has done good to you.”
    21. The people said to Joshua, “No, but we will serve the LORD.”
    22. Joshua said to the people, “You are witnesses against yourselves that you have chosen for yourselves the LORD, to serve Him.” And they said, “We are witnesses.”
    23. “Now therefore, put away the foreign gods which are in your midst, and incline your hearts to the LORD, the God of Israel.”
    24. The people said to Joshua, “We will serve the LORD our God and we will obey His voice.”
    25. So Joshua made a covenant with the people that day, and made for them a statute and an ordinance in Shechem.
    26. And Joshua wrote these words in the book of the law of God; and he took a large stone and set it up there under the oak that was by the sanctuary of the LORD.
    27. Joshua said to all the people, “Behold, this stone shall be for a witness against us, for it has heard all the words of the LORD which He spoke to us; thus it shall be for a witness against you, so that you do not deny your God.”
    28. Then Joshua dismissed the people, each to his inheritance. (NASB, 1995)

    In verse one, we read that “Joshua gathered all the tribes of Israel to Shechem, and called for the elders of Israel and for their heads and their judges and their officers; and they presented themselves before God.” In verse two, Joshua begins quoting God as He makes an appeal for all the tribes of Israel to be faithful to Him. The appeal concludes at the end of verse 13. In verse 14, Joshua tells the Israelites, on the basis of the appeal, to “fear the LORD and serve Him in sincerity and truth; and put away the gods which your fathers served beyond the River and in Egypt, and serve the LORD.” At this point, the Israelites are faced with a choice—obey the instructions of Joshua, or refuse to do so. That is, they are faced with the choice to “fear the LORD and serve Him in sincerity and truth; and put away the gods which your fathers served beyond the River and in Egypt, and serve the LORD,” or to refuse to do so. In verse 15, Joshua reminds the Israelites that if they choose to refuse to obey his instructions, they will have two undesirable choices:

    1. Serve “the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River.”
    2. Serve “the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living.”

    In verses 16-18, the Israelites reply, basing their decision upon the appeal from God through Joshua, that they will serve the Lord. In verse 19-20, Joshua challenges their commitment. In verse 21, the Israelites stand firm and insist that they will serve the Lord. In verse 22, we read, “Joshua said to the people, ‘You are witnesses against yourselves that you have chosen for yourselves the LORD, to serve Him.’ And they said, ‘We are witnesses.’”

    Who should we believe, Joshua or Calvin? I believe Joshua—“ You are witnesses against yourselves that you have chosen for yourselves the LORD, to serve Him.”
     
  13. JM

    JM Absolute Predestinarian Supporter

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    :thumbsup:
     
  14. Winman

    Winman Junior Member

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    You did a good job.

    These people clearly chose the true God, and not idols;

    Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
    16 And the people answered and said, God forbid that we should forsake the LORD, to serve other gods;
    17 For the LORD our God, he it is that brought us up and our fathers out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage, and which did those great signs in our sight, and preserved us in all the way wherein we went, and among all the people through whom we passed:
    18 And the LORD drave out from before us all the people, even the Amorites which dwelt in the land: therefore will we also serve the LORD; for he is our God.

    These Hebrews clearly chose the true God and not idols. They chose the God who brought them and their fathers out of Egypt and bondage, who did great wonders in their sight, preserved them in the wilderness, and drove out all the people before them. They are clearly speaking of the true God.

    You can't convince someone against their will, these guys simply do not want to admit that people can choose God. It would turn their world upside down.
     
  15. OzSpen

    OzSpen Regular Member

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    PrincetonGuy,

    Excellent exposition. Thank you for taking the time to demonstrate that a contextual exposition exposes the Calvinistic imposition on this text. In context, it demonstrates that people have the God-given ability to accept or refuse God or the other gods. I thank God for his grace that makes this possible.

    Oz
     
  16. OzSpen

    OzSpen Regular Member

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    Winman,

    Thank you for your encouragement. Joshua 24Z;14-18 clearly demonstrates that God gave these people the ability to choose God or the gods. That's what the text states.

    You are dead right. It's impossible to convince people against their will. However, the issue is more serious than that, in my view. When evidence is presented from the text - exegesis of the text - people still refuse to listen.

    Oz
     
  17. 98cwitr

    98cwitr Lord forgive me Staff Member Red Team - Moderator Supporter

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    Never studied Calvin. Why did the Israelites choose the way they did? If they chose from their heart, and they responsible for that choice, then why the rebuke from Joshua? Joshua saw their hearts as evil, and mentioned it so. The Israelites told Joshua a lie and he called them on it. There's no challenge in 19-20...it's an affirmation. This happens today. Many professing Christians is in a pew, live in sin, and consider themselves saved simply because they call themselves Christian and attend church every Sunday. You and I know they they are only deceiving themselves.
     
  18. 98cwitr

    98cwitr Lord forgive me Staff Member Red Team - Moderator Supporter

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    You realize that the "people's answer" was a lie right? Hence 19-20.
     
  19. OzSpen

    OzSpen Regular Member

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    You missed the content of 14-15 and the choices made. Choice go right back to Adam in the garden, the choice of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and he CHOSE the evil.
     
  20. Winman

    Winman Junior Member

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    That is not correct. Joshua told them they could not serve the true God AND these false idols. The people responded that they would serve the true God only.

    Jos 24:19 And Joshua said unto the people, Ye cannot serve the LORD: for he is an holy God; he is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins.
    20 If ye forsake the LORD, and serve strange gods, then he will turn and do you hurt, and consume you, after that he hath done you good.
    21 And the people said unto Joshua, Nay; but we will serve the LORD.
    22 And Joshua said unto the people, Ye are witnesses against yourselves that ye have chosen you the LORD, to serve him. And they said, We are witnesses.
    23 Now therefore put away, said he, the strange gods which are among you, and incline your heart unto the LORD God of Israel.
    24 And the people said unto Joshua, The LORD our God will we serve, and his voice will we obey.
    25 So Joshua made a covenant with the people that day, and set them a statute and an ordinance in Shechem.
    26 And Joshua wrote these words in the book of the law of God, and took a great stone, and set it up there under an oak, that was by the sanctuary of the LORD.
    27 And Joshua said unto all the people, Behold, this stone shall be a witness unto us; for it hath heard all the words of the LORD which he spake unto us: it shall be therefore a witness unto you, lest ye deny your God.
    28 So Joshua let the people depart, every man unto his inheritance.

    Again, Joshua told the people that God was a jealous God, he would not permit them to worship him AND false idols. The people perfectly understood and chose the true God. Then Joshua himself said, Ye are witnesses against yourselves, that ye have CHOSEN you the Lord.

    Plain as day, you simply do not want to see what scripture REALLY says. Men have the ability to choose God. Not only do they have the ability, this is an instance where they in fact CHOSE the Lord.

    Now YOU have a choice, you can believe what men teach, or believe what the Bible says.
     
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