Question about the flood

[Ygrene Imref]

What's your point? You think quoting the Bible is going to prove something to me?

Absolutely not. But, for the sake of onlookers, they need to see how agency in practice works. I simply fought your challenge to call Hitler a non-Christian with biblical verses. You committed a very sophomoric act in assuming one that claims Christ is Christian - completely ignoring what Christ Himself, and God said a Christian actually is.

If you are going to try to defend something in context (i.e. Hitler is a Christian; look at how much he says "god" things,) then you cant reject the metric used to measure the context. If we were talking about Marvel Comics, you cant say Magneto's powers are to throw fire, then when you are called out and corrected using the comic book canon itself, you say something like

You do realize I consider the Marvel [Bible] to be mythology, don't you?

as an excuse to telegraph the attention from your mistake in context. I have no doubt you will reject all of this right now; I am writing this as a volley of a learning experience for others looking.

You can, by all means, carry on.

 

[Ygrene Imref]

I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so.

- Adolf Hitler, to General Gerhard Engel, 1941

Yeah, he's so vague here. Catholic could mean anything...

“My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow my self to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice… And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows . For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.” –Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)

Who is he speaking of here if not Jesus?

Where did he mention Christ/"Jesus"?

You have no idea of who the god he speaks. You are assuming because of choice words, literary triggers and what you have learned from society encapsulates the "Christian."

 

[MissRowy]

Just because he doesn't mention Jesus does NOT mean he wasn't a Christian. You can't jump to conclusions because he doesn't talk about Jesus.

 

[Kylie]

It is your own quotations. These sentiments are a projection of your own methodology.

You are the one who gave me a list of quotes, then challenged me to say Hitler wasn't a Christian. Yet, not one of those excerpts mention Christ singularly, in context or by extension. The "almighty" is never specified like He is in the biblical canon.

Your own evidence fails to support your assertion aforementioned.

So you claim Hitler wasn't a Christian, but give no actual evidence.

I say he was, and I give a selection of quotes that support my claim.

You claim it doesn't count because he doesn't say Jesus.

So saying Jesus is the magic codeword or something? There is a HUGE amount of evidence to support the claim that Hitler was a Christian.

 

[Kylie]

Absolutely not. But, for the sake of onlookers, they need to see how agency in practice works. I simply fought your challenge to call Hitler a non-Christian with biblical verses. You committed a very sophomoric act in assuming one that claims Christ is Christian - completely ignoring what Christ Himself, and God said a Christian actually is.

So what?

I can point to any number of people who proclaim themselves to be Christian, and yet behave in very un-Christ like ways. Are they lying too?

If you are going to try to defend something in context (i.e. Hitler is a Christian; look at how much he says "god" things,) then you cant reject the metric used to measure the context.

Ah, and you get to decide what counts as being a TrueChristian, of course.

You are committing the No True Scotsman fallacy.

If we were talking about Marvel Comics, you cant say Magneto's powers are to throw fire, then when you are called out and corrected using the comic book canon itself, you say something like

Not the same thing. Hitler himself said he was Catholic. And I figured that Hitler was more aware of what his religious beliefs were far better than I could ever be.

To apply this to your analogy, it would be like Magneto saying he could throw fire and actually doing it, and then you claiming Magneto was wrong because you have another comic that says otherwise.

as an excuse to telegraph the attention from your mistake in context. I have no doubt you will reject all of this right now; I am writing this as a volley of a learning experience for others looking.

No. You are only declaring it a mistake because you are ignoring what Hitler ACTUALLY SAID about his own religious beliefs.

Basically, you think Hitler was bad, and so you want to find a way to claim he wasn't really in your club.

You can, by all means, carry on.

You're the one carrying on.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Where did he mention Christ/"Jesus"?

You have no idea of who the god he speaks. You are assuming because of choice words, literary triggers and what you have learned from society encapsulates the "Christian."

Exactly who do you think he was talking about?

Hitler's relationship to Christianity isn't clear; he identified himself as such, but in general it was an attitude of disdain. Hitler's view of Jesus is incompatible with traditional Christianity and so there was no place for traditional Christianity, in the long run, in Hitler's Germany. But Hitler clearly did identify himself, in some way, as one--even if it was a deeply distorted, perverse, heretical, and apostate form of the religion in which Jesus of Nazareth had no place and in Jesus' place a new "Jesus", an "Aryan" Jesus established as idol and antichrist.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

So you claim Hitler wasn't a Christian, but give no actual evidence.

I say he was, and I give a selection of quotes that support my claim.

You claim it doesn't count because he doesn't say Jesus.

So saying Jesus is the magic codeword or something? There is a HUGE amount of evidence to support the claim that Hitler was a Christian.

There is evidence that Hitler was nominally Christian, but it's also not that simple. Hitler's relationship with Christianity is a recognizably complicated one.

"In Hitler's eyes, Christianity was a religion fit only for slaves; he detested its ethics in particular. Its teaching, he declared, was a rebellion against the natural law of selection by struggle and the survival of the fittest." - Allan Bullock, Hitler a Study in Tyranny, 1952

The goal of the Nazis, in relation to the German churches, was to create a unitary, official Nazi church (the Reichskirche), Catholics suffered, and dissenting Protestants likewise suffered, and the opposition to the Reichskirche and the Deutche Christen movement led to the establishment of the Confessing Church and the Theological Declaration of Barmen which, in no uncertain terms, rejected what the Nazis were trying to accomplish.

There would simply be no place for a traditional Christianity in Hitler's Germany, there would either be a subservient Reichskirche that was "Christian" in name only, which followed the tenets of "Positive Christianity", which painted Jesus as an "Aryan" warrior who fought courageously against the "threat" of the Jews--or else no church at all. There was no place for the Christian cross in the Third Reich, only a bent one.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Ygrene Imref]

Just because he doesn't mention Jesus does NOT mean he wasn't a Christian. You can't jump to conclusions because he doesn't talk about Jesus.

Do you think a racist is what Christian is supposed to be? Did Christ believe He was superior to other men, and teach His disciples to teach the same thing? (In His case, He had a RIGHT to be called superior - but did He?)

This is a very dangerous game to play: to assume someone is a Christian just because they say so. We are supposed to know them by their fruits - and judge them accordingly. That is how we stay away from charlatans, and ignorance of this is what attracts people to swindlers and charlatans.

Christ is very clear about His position on "anyone" calling one's self Christian - or a follower of Him. He said specifically that those who do the will of His Father are those who can be called His Children - and therefore His brother/sister, mother, uncle, cousin... etc.

You are not of the family of God if you want to defiantly genocide an entire people, for example - especially if you believe you are executing justice, to the point of a narcissistic deity complex. You are practicing physical judgment (as opposed to discernment,) and acting on behalf of the King who is Alive today (Christ.) Nevertheless, we cant forget that if you don't profess His name, you are just talking. Even that isn't enough: the demons know the name of Christ, God and the powers/angels/principalities - and they believe in, or rather know them. There is no spiritual stigma in calling evil evil.

 

[Ygrene Imref]

So you claim Hitler wasn't a Christian, but give no actual evidence.

I say he was, and I give a selection of quotes that support my claim.

You claim it doesn't count because he doesn't say Jesus.

So saying Jesus is the magic codeword or something? There is a HUGE amount of evidence to support the claim that Hitler was a Christian.

I am discerning. I used the same (rule)book that would justify Hitler's spiritual alignment to show that he is not necessarily a Christian just because he talks like one, or even if he mentions (a) god, or "Jesus."

There is not a huge amount of evidence to support that Hitler was a Christian - unless you have no idea what a Christian is. That is the only way. In the same breath critics of Christianity accuse other Christians of breaking our own "law" you claim someone who is just "preachy" is actually Christian - despite the actions?

Christ meant what He said; you only get to play pretend and call yourself an Hebrew/Christian while being a hypocrite - but only the world will believe it. Spiritually, a lot of people are going to be rejected because they have no idea what Christianity means in practice (even those who believe they are "devout.")

You are arguing Hitler's Christianity while simultaneously ignoring what it means to be Christians, and the actions of Hitler.

 

[Ygrene Imref]

So what?

I can point to any number of people who proclaim themselves to be Christian, and yet behave in very un-Christ like ways. Are they lying too?



Ah, and you get to decide what counts as being a TrueChristian, of course.

You are committing the No True Scotsman fallacy.

It is a nice dialectic the world makes with the "'No True Scotsman' Fallacy." It is good for the ego, not good in spiritual practice - that is, if your are going to entertain the philosophical existence thereof in order to acquire enough information to critique. But, in reality yes, many Christians are fooling themselves. I am not going to go any further; Christ says exactly what He meant.

Not the same thing. Hitler himself said he was Catholic. And I figured that Hitler was more aware of what his religious beliefs were far better than I could ever be.

It is the exact same thing. If we are arguing comic books, you have to assume for the same of the thought experiment that everything in that comic book universe written is canon. It is your responsibility to know what is canon in order to argue or critique it effectively, and accurately.

In your case, you do not believe in the bible, yet you are critiquing it. That is perfectly fine; however, you do not really know much about the canon, or you cannot connect context to other literary devices to draw a conclusion - especially one consistent with the canon.

You cannot claim someone like Hitler was a Christian just because he says so, because Christ specifically spoke about this in several verses in the canon that justifies the literary definition of his faith. So, I am using the same canon to disprove your assertion that someone like Hitler was a Christian - especially because he said so.

No. You are only declaring it a mistake because you are ignoring what Hitler ACTUALLY SAID about his own religious beliefs.

Either the BIBLE is not the canon that he used to determine the definition of his faith (and Christian faith,) or assertions about him being Christian are grossly erroneous. Christ Himself, as well as God said that lip service devotion is not a qualification of being a son of God at all. They talk against this.

You are trying to argue that the same canon that says this vindicates Hitler's spiritual alignment - despite clear inconsistencies between the actions of Hitler, and a child of God.

Basically, you think Hitler was bad, and so you want to find a way to claim he wasn't really in your club.

We are all bad; no one on this planet right now does good 100% of the time. If we were "good," that would be our identity ("Hi, my name is Good(ness).") I am saying that considering Hitler's actions, and his defiance - and especially considering what Christ says - he is not a Christian.

You're the one carrying on.

Excellent.

 

[Ygrene Imref]

Exactly who do you think he was talking about?

Hitler's relationship to Christianity isn't clear; he identified himself as such, but in general it was an attitude of disdain. Hitler's view of Jesus is incompatible with traditional Christianity and so there was no place for traditional Christianity, in the long run, in Hitler's Germany. But Hitler clearly did identify himself, in some way, as one--even if it was a deeply distorted, perverse, heretical, and apostate form of the religion in which Jesus of Nazareth had no place and in Jesus' place a new "Jesus", an "Aryan" Jesus established as idol and antichrist.

-CryptoLutheran

I am not going to speculate - especially that it is the Most High God. Why would I assume he is Christian? Just because he wrote letters of romanticism toward a deity whose name he doesn't declare? Or, because he was raised Catholic?

That is a misstep: to believe someone is a Christian just because of circumstance and oration. Christ and God speak against this, and the people who do this.

There are people who murder for a living, and truly believe they are Christian. They even go to church, pray and read the canon. Are you arguing that I have to ignore their fruits, and assume they are Christian - that they truly worship my Father, and believe in Christ and His message? Christ told us to judge people by their fruit, and discern antichrists. The entity people think of as the "antichrist" will be so smooth talking and knowledgeable in the all religions and philosophies that almost everyone will think he must be god on earth - including many "Christians."

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Christianity is by far the largest religious belief in the USA. Christians in virtually every western country are free to worship as they please, and can freely wear symbols of their faith without being persecuted. The number of Christians who are attacked for their beliefs is tiny compared to other faiths, like Islam. A person running for public office can proclaim that he is a Christian, and is not going to lose votes. But if he proclaims he is an atheist, he will lose a huge number of votes. So stop pretending that you are victimized, because you aren't.

View attachment 207540

Jesus says narrow is the way that leads unto life and few be there that find it.
Also, to say that Christians have not been persecuted through out history and that they are not persecuted now is just not true. There are many reports in the past few years of Christians who were persecuted and killed for their faith.

Here is an article from FoxNews.

Christians the most persecuted group in world for second year: Study

 

[Kylie]

Where did he mention Christ/"Jesus"?

You have no idea of who the god he speaks. You are assuming because of choice words, literary triggers and what you have learned from society encapsulates the "Christian."

Wow. You really are clinging to this idea. No entry to the clubhouse unless they use the right codewords!

 

[Kylie]

Do you think a racist is what Christian is supposed to be? Did Christ believe He was superior to other men, and teach His disciples to teach the same thing? (In His case, He had a RIGHT to be called superior - but did He?)

This is a very dangerous game to play: to assume someone is a Christian just because they say so. We are supposed to know them by their fruits - and judge them accordingly. That is how we stay away from charlatans, and ignorance of this is what attracts people to swindlers and charlatans.

Christ is very clear about His position on "anyone" calling one's self Christian - or a follower of Him. He said specifically that those who do the will of His Father are those who can be called His Children - and therefore His brother/sister, mother, uncle, cousin... etc.

You are not of the family of God if you want to defiantly genocide an entire people, for example - especially if you believe you are executing justice, to the point of a narcissistic deity complex. You are practicing physical judgment (as opposed to discernment,) and acting on behalf of the King who is Alive today (Christ.) Nevertheless, we cant forget that if you don't profess His name, you are just talking. Even that isn't enough: the demons know the name of Christ, God and the powers/angels/principalities - and they believe in, or rather know them. There is no spiritual stigma in calling evil evil.

What you are doing is also a dangerous game.

There are many Christians today that are racist - are they to be labelled as false Christians as well?

 

[Kylie]

It is a nice dialectic the world makes with the "'No True Scotsman' Fallacy." It is good for the ego, not good in spiritual practice - that is, if your are going to entertain the philosophical existence thereof in order to acquire enough information to critique. But, in reality yes, many Christians are fooling themselves. I am not going to go any further; Christ says exactly what He meant.

You could make a fortune, you know. Set up a booth with a sign: Are you a REAL Christian? Come and take my easy five-minute quiz and find out! Results 100% guaranteed!

It is the exact same thing. If we are arguing comic books, you have to assume for the same of the thought experiment that everything in that comic book universe written is canon. It is your responsibility to know what is canon in order to argue or critique it effectively, and accurately.

And in this analogy, Hitler is a character IN the comic books, and if he makes the claim he is Christian, then that is also canon.

In your case, you do not believe in the bible, yet you are critiquing it. That is perfectly fine; however, you do not really know much about the canon, or you cannot connect context to other literary devices to draw a conclusion - especially one consistent with the canon.

Woah, hold on there.

Since when does knowing much about something require belief? Safe bet to say I know more about Star Trek than nearly everyone else, but that doesn't mean I think Klingons are real. I can have very detailed knowledge and great understanding of something without actually believing it to be factual.

You cannot claim someone like Hitler was a Christian just because he says so, because Christ specifically spoke about this in several verses in the canon that justifies the literary definition of his faith. So, I am using the same canon to disprove your assertion that someone like Hitler was a Christian - especially because he said so.

Oh, now you're being naughty.

In the rules, it says:

• Stating or implying that another Christian member, or group of members, are not Christian is not allowed.

So you aren't allowed to say to a member here, "Hey, you claim you're a Christian, but I say you aren't!" And yet you are doing that to Hitler. Granted, Hitler isn't a member here, but I think the rule is quite clear that the final judgment of whether a person is Christian is made by that person themselves, and you are not in a position to argue. I mean, what authority do you have to judge whether a person meets the criteria to be a Christian?

Either the BIBLE is not the canon that he used to determine the definition of his faith (and Christian faith,) or assertions about him being Christian are grossly erroneous. Christ Himself, as well as God said that lip service devotion is not a qualification of being a son of God at all. They talk against this.

What evidence do you have that Hitler was merely paying lip service?

You are trying to argue that the same canon that says this vindicates Hitler's spiritual alignment - despite clear inconsistencies between the actions of Hitler, and a child of God.

Once again, you seem to be assuming you have the authority to judge whether people are Christian or not. You don't.

We are all bad; no one on this planet right now does good 100% of the time. If we were "good," that would be our identity ("Hi, my name is Good(ness).") I am saying that considering Hitler's actions, and his defiance - and especially considering what Christ says - he is not a Christian.

By this logic, couldn't you say Joel Osteen is not a Christian, since he refused to open his megachurch to look after refugees from the hurricanes?

 

[Kylie]

Jesus says narrow is the way that leads unto life and few be there that find it.

Well now, that doesn't sound like it was well thought out, does it?

Also, to say that Christians have not been persecuted through out history and that they are not persecuted now is just not true. There are many reports in the past few years of Christians who were persecuted and killed for their faith.

Here is an article from FoxNews.

Christians the most persecuted group in world for second year: Study

Hahahahahahahaha Fox news.

 

[Queller]

Not at all. It is the truth. You are here and not at Buddah and Muslim forums for a reason.

You can keep telling yourself that lie, but it is not going to help you on Judgment Day unless you repent and accept Jesus.

#1. Seashells on top of mountains would have eroded away by the weathering of the elements if the Earth was millions of years old. So the seashells on tops of the highest mountains is a result of the global flood.

#2. Underwater ruins or buildings are found deep beneath the ocean floor.

Do you have a source for this claim?

#3. Fossilized trees are found going through each of the layers of rock that atheists say are millions of years each.

Not a problem

#4. Global Flood Legends in many cultures world wide.

So. Lots of cultures arise around water sources. Water sources flood.

#5. Fossil beds or graveyards of animals found all over the world.

And?

#6. Scripture testifies of a global flood and many other evidences back up the Bible in many other areas of Science, Archeology, etc.

OK. Start a thread and post these "evidences". We'll take a look.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Do you have a source for this claim?

Not a problem

So. Lots of cultures arise around water sources. Water sources flood.

And?

OK. Start a thread and post these "evidences". We'll take a look.

The Bible should be your ultimate source that you need to know on whether or not there was a global flood. Read this text here:

19 "And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.
20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.
21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:
22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.
23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark." (Genesis 7:19-23).

 

[Tinker Grey]

The Bible should be your ultimate source that you need to know on whether or not there was a global flood.

Why would I believe that?

 

[AV1611VET]

Why would I believe that?

So you can have God vouching for you.