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Featured Question about the 1000 year reign - rapture

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by sk8brdkd, Apr 28, 2018.

  1. miamited

    miamited Ted Supporter

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    Hi sk,

    That's about how I understand the unfolding of the very last days before the Lord's 1000 year reign. Everyone living upon the earth, both believers and unbelievers will go through the 'great' tribulation. At least the beginning of it. The Scriptures declare that we are not destined for God's wrath. But, as we see in the Revelation, God's wrath does not refer to the same event as the tribulation. It seems that so many believers are confused about these two terms and what they refer to.

    The great tribulation like has never before been seen nor ever will be, is the time of trouble for the believers. It is brought about by man and Satan against the believers. The wrath of God is the bowl and trumpet judgments of God that proceed from God after the believers have been removed from the earth in what is referred to as the 'rapture'. This is what we read in Revelation chapter 14 beginning in verse 14. At this point in the Revelation (chapter 14) the tribulation has already come upon the earth. The next few chapters tell of the release of God's wrath upon all those whom the second creature gathered and threw into the winepress of God' wrath.

    After God's wrath has been released upon the wicked who remained after the first creature like the son of man gathered the first group from the earth, we then read of the 1,000 year reign of Jesus upon the earth with the believers. We are told that first an angel will descend from heaven and throw Satan and his minions, bound by chains, into the abyss where they will remain for 1,000 years (the reign of Jesus). Then the believers are resurrected and the Scriptures specifically refer to this resurrection as being the 'first' resurrection and declares that blessed are those who are resurrected in this first resurrection.

    The Scriptures then tell us quite clearly that the rest of the dead will then be resurrected at the end of the 1,000 year reign of the Lord along with Satan and his minions and there will be one more time that Satan will be allowed to roam freely about the earth to deceive all the nations and to gather them up for the final battle of God against Satan. God wins! Then Satan and his minions will be cast into the lake of fire and God will call all men to judgment. Those whose names are not found in the Lamb's Book of Life at this final and everlasting judgment will be cast into the same place where Satan has gone.

    We then enter the eternal existence of life with or without God. That's my understanding of the unfolding of the revelation of Jesus as proclaimed by God and given unto His Son to deliver to his angel who then gave it to John. At the end of all this, the saints will live with God for all eternity. Happy and safe in the ever present and loving arms of God. The damned will live without God and their life, as explained in the Scriptures, will be a life of eternal torment.

    God, through His Son, Jesus, will have built up a priesthood of believers which was God's plan and intent when He first spoke into existence the heavens and the earth in this realm in which we live. From the very beginning of the creation, this was God's perfect plan to create a people who will be His people and He will be their God.

    God bless,
    In Christ, ted
     
  2. miamited

    miamited Ted Supporter

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    Hi ronald,

    You responded to my post:
    I respectfully disagree that the two are one and the same event that happen at the same time. To me, the Revelation of Jesus seems to quite clearly teach that the 'first' resurrection, of which the believers are a part of, does not happen at the same time that Paul writes to us concerning the rising up to meet Jesus in the clouds or at the same time that the Revelation itself explains to us this rising up and being gathered together with one like the son of man in chapter 14:14

    God bless you,
    In Christ, ted
     
  3. Ronald

    Ronald Exhortations Supporter

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    Being changed, transformed in the twinkling of an eye and being caught up into heaven means something different than the resurrection? Being changed, putting on immortality, that can nolonger be corrupted means something other than the resurrection? I think not.
    If the church is caught up into heaven and we aren't changed, will we just be miraculously suspended in our present physical form? What about the dead in Christ? Will they be caught up looking like zombies??? Nope, we will all receive new bodies.
    Rev. 11:15-19 will be
    *the time of our resurrection;
    * the time we will be caught up;
    *the time when the kingdom of the world becomes the kingdom of our Lord;
    *the time 24 elders ( whoever they are) bow down and worship the Lord and give thanks
    * the time when the dead are judged;
    * the time when rewards are given to the prophet and the saints ( us)
    * AND the time when Gods temple in heaven is open; and this sets off an earthquake and great hailstorm.

    Um, about Rev. 14:14, I think you should read through this particular harvest, it IS NOT A HARVEST OF CHRISTIANS, IT IS A HARVEST OF JUDGMENT, IT'S GODS WRATH. The Lord coming on a horse is for judgment with his angels of death. The grapes are thrown into a great WordPress of Gods wrath. The wine is symbolic for blood, the blood of hundreds of millions (up to the horse s bridle ..) This Armageddon.
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2018
  4. Sketcher

    Sketcher Born Imperishable

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    No. Once we're in Heaven, the case is closed.
     
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  5. Hank77

    Hank77 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    That is why I said the resurrection of the Saints. I don't see non-believers mentioned in the scripture. 1 Thes. 4:16-17
     
  6. Truthevenifyouhateit

    Truthevenifyouhateit New Member

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    So I have a serious question, christians seem to thrive on minute details of scripture and the context of things but let's look at this from the point of view of the origin of what your debating. Jesus apostles are essentially the subjects of the Bible yet none of the books were written by any of them. They were for the most part written by individuals who's grand parents had not even been born yet at the time of the crucifiction. Think about that the majority of what's written in scriptures was essentially created at the behest of a opportunistic Roman emperor at Nicea. Several of the books considered to be foundations of the Jewish faith which is what christians were at the time were omitted because they "conflicted with our purposes" such as Ezekiel and 3 other versions of Daniel. Then you have so many translations and reinterpretations that when they find things like the Dead Sea scrolls which are actually verbatim from the time, it makes modern Christianity look silly. Given all that, your still asking things that are not possibly correct because what your arguing about was contrived to begin with. Maybe the question shouldn't be who your savior is but whether or not your willing to take responsibility for your own lives and how conduct yourself while your here. It isn't a question of higher life we know we are a small version of life and obviously there is power beyond our imagination. But they don't run around in white robes blowing trumpets and casting down. You all have a responsibility to yourselves to understand why your here. Do yourselves a favor and read Ezekiel, your creator went to allot of trouble to make your origin known to you and people's scheming and greed have denied you what should be your most basic truth, your real origin and your destination. Stop being silly and pursue truth not contrivances meant to control the masses.
     
  7. miamited

    miamited Ted Supporter

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    Hi ronald,

    Well, I already submitted that I disagreed with this understanding. I don't know what you want me to say, but I'll repeat that no, I don't agree that the being changed and transformed in the twinkling of an eye and caught up into heaven as being the same as the resurrection that is described as the 'first' resurrection found in chapter 20 of the Revelation of Jesus.

    I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

    According to the words of Revelation 14 it describes two harvests. I honestly have no idea what the 'WordPress' of God's wrath is referring to in your post.

    God bless,
    In Christ, ted
     
  8. Ronald

    Ronald Exhortations Supporter

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    Hi Ted,
    Actually, with no disrespect, I don't think you understand the Rev. 14. The first 5 verses reference the 144k Jews who have received God's mark. This chapter is just a different vantage point of chapter 7, where we see the 144k receive the Lord. You know, part of the remnant Israel that was promised enlightenment in Rom. 11?
    This is after the resurrection, since it clearly states that Jesus has just come down AND NOW IS STANDING ON MT. ZION.
    Vs. 6 tells us an angel gives a final warning to those people who apparently were on the fence about Christ, but did not yet receive the mark of the Beast.
    Vs. 7 warning of imminent judgment.
    Vs. 8 Babylon ( the world system) has fallen - remember Rev. 11:15?
    Vs. 9 more warnings not to receive mark of the Beast
    Vs. 10, 11 wrath & destruction
    Vs.,12 A pause, to give encouragement to those post first resurrection Christians - patience!
    Vs. 13 the dead who die in Christ from this point on will live, be blessed.

    So, since I covered the harvest of God's wrath from vs 14- 18, where do you see another harvest.
    Be specific, what verse???
    Oh, no affiliation with WordPress, don't think they address such things.
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2018
  9. fm107

    fm107 Psalm 19:1-4 and Romans 1:20

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    During the rapture, Christians are caught up to be with Christ into Heaven.
    Later, Satan is bound and cast into the bottomless pit at the second coming of Christ when Christ vanquishes the foes of Israel and sets up His rule.

    We share in Christ's glorious entry back into this World. We will reign with Him during this time.


    Not correct. To start with, only believers from the tribulation period will go into the Millennial Kingdom along with old testament saints. Over the 1,000 years there will be a massive population increase. Many born during the Millennial Kingdom, although they know Christ is God will not love Him and will actually dislike Christ's rule although this will not be shown openly.

    As for he Believer, we are with Christ as His bride, our time of trial is long past. We have finished the race will not be tempted by Satan nor could we be, we will have glorious bodies like unto the Lord's glorious body. We will be Holy like Him.

    Towards the end of the Millennial reign, Satan will be released for a short time. Those who have no love for the Lord will be the one's that are rallied by Satan and whom fire out of Heaven will come to destroy.

    After this, Satan is cast into the lake of fire. Then there is a new Heaven and New Earth, the current Heaven and Earth are rolled up like a scroll and done away with.
     
  10. jesus316

    jesus316 All Truth is in Jesus Supporter

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    Yes. Once Christians die, Satan is done with us forever.
     
  11. Radagast

    Radagast has left CF

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    Yes they were.

    Nonsense. The New Testament was completed centuries before Nicaea.

    Nonsense.

    Anti-Christian nonsense. The DSS provide alternative texts for parts of the Old Testament -- but they don't actually conflict with the Masoretic text.
     
  12. miamited

    miamited Ted Supporter

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    Hi TEIYHI,

    You wrote:
    I'm curious where you have found your evidence to support such a notion. That the four gospel accounts were written by people whose grandparents hadn't even been born when the Lord was crucified? You seem to have confused the council of Nicea making an attempt to codify what writings should be considered Scripture with the people who actually wrote those Scriptures.

    In Luke's testimony of the life of Jesus he opens up with the explanation that he was writing about things which he had carefully checked out with actual eyewitnesses to the events. There isn't any reason for anyone to think that the other gospels weren't written shortly after Jesus' death. Even if we consider that they may not have actually been written by the people whose names identify the writings, that they weren't written and being used among the early fellowships long before the council of Nicea seems fairly ludicrous. Even Paul's letters have fairly early attestations to their being handed around to the various fellowships long before this time.

    You also wrote:
    Really? You believe that the finding of the Dead Sea Scrolls has somehow made modern christianity look silly? The Dead Sea Scrolls were written before there even was christianity, but they well confirm pretty much everything that they contained that were also a part of the Jewish Scriptures. Nearly a complete reading of Isaiah with fewer than a few dozen fairly unimportant words that don't match letter for letter with what the writings of Isaiah say in our current translations.

    You finished by writing:
    I'd honestly have to say, based on what you have shown as your evidence for what you believe to be the truth concerning the Scriptures, your truth is rather more at question than your idea that we are wasting time discussing the 'minute details' of the Scriptures is somehow true. The Scriptures, even in the old covenant writings before christianity, encourage us to search them out. Even Daniel, who you seem to approve, spent time searching the Scriptures and is how he came to know that the Babylonian captivity was soon to end. He had read and studied the writings of Jeremiah.

    So, I'd just encourage that you check your facts concerning the source and dates of the writings found in the Scriptures. I certainly don't agree with your understanding of these things. BTW, just a point of grammar, but most of the time that you write the word 'your', by context it is clear that you mean to write 'you're'.

    God bless,
    In Christ, ted
     
  13. Radagast

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    Actually, the Council of Nicaea did not codify the canon. That's a piece of fiction out of a Dan Brown novel. The canon was not discussed at Nicaea at all.

    Most of the New Testament canon was established in the 2nd century (if not earlier), and quoted as Scripture by early Christian writers. The status of only a handful of books continued to be debated (up until 367). The New Testament books themselves were all written before the year 100.
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2018
  14. miamited

    miamited Ted Supporter

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    Hi radagast,

    I agree with you that the council of Nicea was not called to establish canon. I appreciate your correcting my error. I only brought it up because the OP seems to believe that the council of Nicea had something to do with the writing or determination of the canononical writings. I also agree that all of the new covenant writings were already written within the first century A.D. The last one is believed to have been John's writing of the Revelation, but for the most part, it is believed that all of the other new covenant writings were completed at least by 75 A.D.

    Thanks and God bless,
    In Christ, ted
     
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  15. .Mikha'el.

    .Mikha'el. Mod Queue Spam Troll Banner Extraordinaire! Staff Member Supervisor Supporter

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    MOD HAT ON!

    Thread moved from Christian Advice to Eschatology!

    MOD HAT OFF!
     
  16. JacksBratt

    JacksBratt Searching for Truth

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    Whenever the Rapture or millennial age comes..... the fact remains the same.... Those that live after the tribulation, in the millennial age, while Satan is bound... will live under Christ's rule, and, since Satan is bound, the new born humans will not have been tempted. In order to live as a saved human... all must be tempted and chose Christ.

    Those born after the tribulation will be subject to this temptation when Satan is loosed for a short time. Some will be deceived.

    Those deceived will not be any of those that, before the millennial age, chose Christ.
    Those who previously Chose Christ and died or were raptured..... will not be tempted.

    All those who did not choose Christ, were not raptured or lived after the tribulation... will be judged at the white throne judgement.
     
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  17. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.



    .
     
  18. Ronald

    Ronald Exhortations Supporter

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    Hi Ted,
    Listen, the book of Revelation has a half dozen views. As we all have witnessed, discussed, argued about, we all have been challenged to understand this book. I know brilliant theologians like John MacArthur who are Pre- Tribbers. That is one view, with variations as well. Post-Tribbers have another view. Amillennialists are out there n their own abstract symbolic team.
    Pre-Tribbers cling to the 70th week of Daniel as if the prohecy was intended to have a giant 1986 + year ago - I don't, I think that prophecy concerned Jesus First Coming only.
    Pre- Tribbers argue that the last trumpet ( cannot be the 7th of the series), since that would destroy their whole premise - I think last is #7. Therefore, we are still around for the first six trumpets.
    Also, the whole period of time is the Great Tribulation and this includes the wrath of God. But scripture explains that the wrath exists IN FULL IN THE BOWLS.
    The confusing aspect if Revelation is that people assume that since John is given a series of visions, that the events described within all happen in a neat, linear chronological order. It cannot work that way, which is why there is much confusion. We, as humans, have this 4 dimensional perspective if reality ,and aautomatically impose that on prophecy. Time is a physical dimension which heaven is not boud to.
    God shows John different vantage points of events that overlap and accumulate during this time. It is not like the Seal events come first, then the trumpets. I believe this book is like a transparent sphere of events, where you must turn the sphere to see these events within and how they are related to each other. I believe the scroll was opened when Jesus received it long ago. How else would John know what was in in it in 95 AD. It is the play and the actions within the play are the trumpets and the bowls - like they are going on simultaneously, but we are given to John one at a time - outside if time. So the rapture in the seals can be seen in Rev. 7:9, in the trumpets in Rev. 11:15 and then other vantage points like Rev. 20 which is just a different vantage point of the rapture with an addition bonus in verse 4. I'm glad you mentioned this verse because many have not unlocked the key to understanding WHO THE BEAST IS. His signature is written in that verse. It is not some revised Roman Empire/ EU group of nations, Russia or the US. It is ISLAM. There signature is BEHEADING. The Beast has manifest itself in. other kingdoms in history who persecuted and/or enslaved the Jews. But now Satan will gather ten Islamic nations to attack Israel and Christians. They have always been anti-Christian and anti-Semitic. And now they will make their final war against them.
     
  19. miamited

    miamited Ted Supporter

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    Hi ronald,

    I absolutely agree with your statement that there are several different understandings of much of what is written to us in the Revelation. However, I also know that there is a truth and so there must be one correct understanding. I also fully agree with you that the complete writing of the Revelation, as John delivered it to us, is not all in chronological order in a couple of places. John does speak of having more than one vision experience and so there's no necessity that the whole of the account is in a chronological order. Each vision experience could have dealt with a particular issue or account and each one be governed by its own chronology. There is another question as to the passage of time. For example when Jesus is removing the bindings of the scroll of God's judgment and he opens the seventh seal, the Scriptures tell us that there was silence in heaven for 'about half an hour'. Are we to understand that as it's really going to be 30 minutes?

    You mention that time is a construct for which heaven is not bound. I agree with that, but I believe that God's revelation to us through His word is written to man for man's understanding. Therefore, while time may not be a recognized construct in heaven, when God tells us about time He is telling us in a way that He would expect us to understand. If God were to have written the Scriptures to us considering only His understanding of all the words and constructs, then there's likely a lot that we wouldn't understand because none of us has the mind of God. So when God, through His Spirit, encourages John to write down the visions he sees on Patmos, and John writes that there was silence in heaven for about half an hour, I expect that God wants us to understand something about that reference to time that we should be able to understand.

    I also agree that the opening of the seals began shortly after Jesus was slain, but as with any activity there is the passage of time going on as the activity is happening. So, I believe that we need to understand that Jesus may not have just, say within 30 seconds, just ripped off all the seals like 1-2-3, etc. He opens one and we are given an understanding of something that began to happen when that first one was opened and Jesus may well have allowed some time for whatever God had designed to happen at the opening of that seal to unfold. Then Jesus opens the next seal and again some time passes as the events designed by God to happen at the opening of that seal begin to unfold.

    The opening of the sixth seal describes some events that it would be difficult to tie to some point in history. There was a great earthquake. Ok, the world has experienced several of what we would call 'great' earthquakes, but is this supposed to allude to some relatively local earthquake? Or rather, should we expect that the entire earth quaked? We are later told that 'every' mountain and island was removed from its place. The only time in history that we could possibly tie such a cataclysmic event to would be the flood when it is believed that the opening of the great streams of the deep also caused the separation of the land mass that we see today in how all the nations and islands seem to fit like a puzzle of one great land mass. We are told of a great quaking of the earth at Jesus' death, but it doesn't appear that the earth was so globally effected as this passage of the Scriptures seems to imply.

    The sun turns black as sackcloth and the moon turns red. Is there a time in earth's history to date that we can see this event has happened? At the crucifixion we are told that the sky went dark, but nothing is said about the moon turning red. Further, the crucifixion has already happened if the Lamb looked as if he had been slain before opening the seals. Then the stars fall to the earth like figs fall from a fig tree when shaken. Is there some event such as that, that has happened already in history? Now, some believe that this is a reference to Satan and his minions being cast to the earth. Possibly, but we still have the whole of the account to consider. The heavens recede like a scroll being rolled up. The only other time we read of something like this happening is just prior to God's judgment.

    Finally we read that the great and powerful and the slave and commoner hide themselves in the rocks and crevices declaring that the great day of God and Jesus' wrath has come. All of these are signs and events that we see happening upon the earth when the sixth seal is opened. Can we really point to a time that each one of those events has occurred? This seems, to me, to be describing an event (the opening of all the seals) that takes a rather long time in being accomplished in our experience here on the earth.

    It begins, as I understand it, with the very first event which is the white horse being loosed to conquer the earth. Some believe that rider is the Antichrist, but I'm more inclined to believe that this is the spreading of the gospel. The white horse rider is Jesus and his gospel of salvation begins to spread across the earth conquering the hearts of men. This is the first sign that we see and since the full title of the writing is believed to be the revelation of Jesus Christ to the world, then this would describe how that revelation began first with the spreading of the gospel by the servants of Jesus...the first apostles.

    The opening of the scrolls ends with the time when men are crying out that judgment has come and describes many of the events that we read will happen just prior to the day of judgment. So for me, this opening of the scrolls seems to cover a fairly large swath of time here on the earth. Then the very last seal tells us that there was silence in heaven for about half an hour and ushers in the seven angels with the seven trumpets.

    As to your understanding of the 'beast', I'm not sure I'm in agreement with your understanding. Personally, I have never been convicted that the beast is a reference to Islam. I can see how some might come to that conclusion because Islam has been the greatest thorn of false religions against christianity and Judaism. However, one of the passages of Scripture that give me pause is that we are told that all the earth, whose names are not written in the Lamb's Book of Life, will worship the beast. This doesn't yet seem to apply to Islam at this point in time and may or may not ever. We are told that the beast is given his authority by Satan, but truth be told, all false religions likely find their source in Satan. There is some further discussion of the beast, but I'll save that for another time.

    Anyway, that's my response.

    God bless,
    In Christ, ted
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2018
  20. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member Supporter

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    My advice. Leave that group and leader as fast... as... possible!

    Open up your Bible, pray for understanding, and get down to doing your OWN Bible study. Get some Bible study software tools, like from BibleSoft. You need at minimum some Bible cross-reference tools like a Strong's Exhaustive Concordance and The Treasury of Scripture Knowledge, and maybe a couple of Bible dictionaries (I recommend a Smith's as a simple one).

    Though a rapture of the Church prior to the tribulation is a popular doctrine, it is not Biblical. It is not what the 1st century Church fathers believed. And don't be fooled by 'progressive' political correctness in the Church, because what the 1st century Church fathers held to is going to be more accurate than a truck load of today's doctrines pushed in today's Churches.

    Those who remain faithful to Jesus throughout the coming tribulation will be gathered by His angels to Him, along with the asleep saints who had already died, on His way back returning to this earth at the Mount of Olives. That day of His 2nd coming is the "day of the Lord" the OT prophets spoke of, and Apostle Paul in 1 Thessalonians 5, and Apostle Peter in 2 Peter 3.

    On that day Jesus gather His Church at His coming, and will defeat the wicked armies of the Antichrist, and will setup HIS KINGDOM on earth instead, at Jerusalem. That is where our Lord Jesus will reign from for the 1,000 years of Rev.20, and His elect Church will reign over the nations with Him. His elect Church will be the 1st resurrection, and will NOT EVER be subject to the "second death" which is the casting into the future "lake of fire" at the end of the 1,000 years.

    During... the 1,000 years, Satan and his host will be locked in his prison pit, not able to deceive the nations. The Word of God will go out to all nations, even those left that came upon Jerusalem on the last day (Zech.14). All nations will then be required to go up to Jerusalem once a year to worship The LORD of hosts, and keep the feast of tabernacles (Zech.14). If a nation refuses, there will be no rain upon their lands. Per Isaiah and Jeremiah, that future time will be a time of teaching. All will know The Father and His Son.

    At the end of the 1,000 years, Satan will be loosed one final time to go tempt the nations. (Those who heard and believed on Jesus during the 1,000 years have to be tested.). Satan will deceive those of the nations to come upon the "camp of the saints" and "beloved city" on earth (Rev.20), and The Father will rain fire down from Heaven upon them, destroying them. Then the books will be opened to see if any names are found in the book of life. Those names not found are then cast into the "lake of fire" along with the abode of hell.

    Then begins the 'new heavens, and a new earth' Eternity timing. The wicked will never see it. The new earth idea is a cleansing of this same earth, the future destruction actually being a destruction like the flood, but this next time by fire. This earth is forever like the Psalmist says. It's the surface that's going to wiped clean of man's works. In that new earth event there will be some major earth changes, a future glory that Paul spoke of in Romans 8.
     
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