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Featured Question about "sola scriptura"

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by JohannaSK, Jan 9, 2017.

  1. JohannaSK

    JohannaSK New Member

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    I have a question about the definition of sola scriptura.

    Am I not a "sola scriptura -Christian" if I believe, that to understand the will of God and to get to know the truth, the text in the Bible in itself isn't sufficient, but that one must be guided by the Holy Spirit to understand what the Bible text actually says?

    I just watched a debate between a Protestant and a Catholic on the subject of sola scriptura. I was surprised that neither one of them claimed that God's Spirit is the one who is above the written Bible text – and not that the Bible text is the only authority (the view of the protestant debater) nor that the Church doctrine and tradition have the same authority as the Bible text (the view of the Catholic debater)!

    It can be seen clearly that if someone who isn't born again from above, from the Spirit of God, reads the Bible s/he most definately doesn't understand the core message: the redemption from sin and death in the Son, Jesus Christ.

    I also remember from the time before I became a Christian myself that I didn't understand the Bible at all, even though I read it every now and then (because the text was aesthetically and emotionally appealing on many parts). But when I became a Christian, I immediately began to see God's message.

    So if I believe like this am I or am I not "sola scriptura"?
     
  2. faroukfarouk

    faroukfarouk Fading curmudgeon CF Senior Ambassador

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    Good to stick to the clear statements of Scripture and their logical consequences:

    John 17.17; Psalm 119.105.
     
  3. ~Anastasia~

    ~Anastasia~ † Servant of God † Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    There tend to be different understandings of sola scriptura, from what I've seen (though I've offended folks for saying so in the past). Luther's description that I read is, in fact, almost the same as the Orthodox Church would say, but we are not thought of as being sola scriptura.

    So I won't begin to tell you if you are or are not.

    And certainly, I do agree that the grace of God helps us in our understanding.

    What does occur to me though, is that Scripture is usually cited as a way to determine the validity of spiritual impulses. So that creates a bit of a chicken-and-egg problem. What do you do in the case of a person who claims the Holy Spirit led him to understand a passage with a particular interpretation, which would seem to contradict Scripture?
     
  4. thecolorsblend

    thecolorsblend If God is your Father, who is your Mother?

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    The beauty of Sola Scriptura is that it means different things to everybody. Nobody can agree on the definition of the term so it means anything you want. So yes, you can be Sola Scriptura on the terms which you outline. And, were I so inclined, I could also claim to adhere to Sola Scriptura as well according to a definition which I just pulled out of my... hat. And nobody could tell me I'm objectively wrong.
     
  5. ToBeLoved

    ToBeLoved Well-Known Member Supporter

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    First, let me say that much of your post is, well I want to be polite here, WRONG. So I will be making several comments about specific things you said. In sola scriptura, DETAILS MATTER.

    As far as the text in red, I am not sure I would agree with that statement either. Where in God's Word does it say that the Holy Spirit wrote the Bible text? It says that the Bible text is inspired by God. In the Trinity, God is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. A second point is that God inspired the writers, but it is the writers who wrote the Bible. It is all true, the Bible, but I don't know who would say that the Holy Spirit is above the written Bible text, it is God above ALL. So God inspired the Bible text that was written by the writers of the Bible. Not just the Holy Spirit.

    Yes it is the Holy Spirit who leads EACH MAN into all TRUTH, but that is because JESUS asked the Father to send each of us the Holy Spirit. So sola scriptura is all based upon VERY DETAILED explanations of what happened and it follows the Bible EXACTLY and I mean EXACTLY.

    The Trinity always works together in the sense that there is NEVER anything Jesus would say that is not the Truth that the Holy Spirit would say that is not the Truth that the Father would say that is not the Truth.

    So I wouldn't say what you expect the Protestant to say above either, because details matter and God inspired at the very top, all Truth and all Scripture.

    I hope this makes sense to you. Does it?
     
  6. ToBeLoved

    ToBeLoved Well-Known Member Supporter

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    That is not possible, because God is not the author of confusion. I will tell you right now you are wrong. So somebody did tell you you are objectively wrong.

    Most of the Bible is agreed upon by those who really study it very, very, very close. At least in the last 100 years where we have had the information to really study, like Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic, the original languages. Now it does not take a scholar to understand these because we have tools, most online and most free that gives us access to all the tools that get very close to the real meanings.

    If one does not mind studying for hundreds or thousands of hours, the Bible over many years like 20 years not in deep study alwayds, but building little upon more, upon more, upon more than one pretty clearly can understand the Bible.

    Most are not diligent to study it that closely. That is there issue, but it is mostly ignorance of the meaning, which leads to error or different understandings. So people automatically think it is the Bible or the text in the Bible that is confusing, but it is lack of study mostly.

    One must consider the Bible also to be the ultimate authority to want to study that much and that hard. Many people of many denominations do not consider the Bible to be the ultimate authority, God's Word, so they never look that closely at the Bible because they do not think it is true anyways. So who studies for thousands of hours something they do not believe in their hearts is Truth? The problem in the beginning of study is that some think it is stories or parables. Some of Jesus words are parables, but that doesn't mean that there is a clear meaning once studied with other scripture.

    Sola Scriptura is beat up by other Christian denominations that never think it true, so never search it for answers and never tell their congregations that it is true, so their congregations never study it for Truth.

    It is a circle many times of unbelief in the Bible's truth.

    That is man's error, not God or God's Word. Man is fallible and sinful. Pastors are not that well trained either. Many denominations a pastor does not need much understanding of the Bible at all to be their main teacher in their church. if the pastor does not know the Bible than they are going to say it is confusion. Also human error.

    I've studied the Bible from the time I was 12 to the time I was 40 years old. Over many years, of diligent study, one learns and builds upon knowlege.

    I will let it go there, but feel free to ask questions on anything i have said.

    Sola Scriptura is true. I have studied the Greek parts and the Hebrew parts in those langauges.

    English is not the original language either. As I said it takes hundreds or thousands of hours.

    It is very complicated. God put so, so much in the Bible and scripture references scripture. It does not read like a novel, Jesus quotes Moses, and a bunch of other Old Testament scriptures. It is a HUGE TRUE PUZZLE
     
  7. ToBeLoved

    ToBeLoved Well-Known Member Supporter

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    This is not true in the sense that you have said.

    The text in the Bible + the Holy Spirit.

    The text in the Bible is enough on it's own. The problem is it is so, so, so very complicated.

    God made the entire universe, God is perfect. And God put His instructions for man kind into that one book. Do you know what kind of Bible the perfect Lord God could put together with ALL His smartness? A hugely complicated book, as I have said earlier.

    So we need the Holy Spirit to understand what the Bible is indeed saying. Because much of the Bible is spiritual. That complicates things HUGELY.

    So human because of OUR LIMITED UNDERSTANDING OF GOD, needs the Holy Spirit to understand it. But that is not showing the Bible is not Truth because we are not as smart as God. So God, sends the Holy Spirit to us to help us understand the complex things God put in the Bible. That DOES NOT make the Bible untrue. That makes us not smart enough to understand it by ourselves. But with God's help we can understand it.
     
  8. ToBeLoved

    ToBeLoved Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I would watch more than one debater to know anything.

    If I am writing a paper on crime, I would not just read one book from one person, would I? No, because in order for the paper I was writing to be good, I need many, many sources of information.

    A protestant is anyone pretty much that is not Catholic. That includes a lot of denominations and as I said earlier, not all pastors even believe the Bible is true. So you need at least 5 debates and then very good teachers. And I would say 20 or 30 debates (see what I mean that it takes thousands of hours, that is no joke).

    Not every protestant is created equal in knowledge of the Bible.
     
  9. ~Anastasia~

    ~Anastasia~ † Servant of God † Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    Orthodox are neither Catholic nor Protestant ...
     
  10. ToBeLoved

    ToBeLoved Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Didn't know that. I did say "pretty much" though, not all. :wave:
     
  11. ~Anastasia~

    ~Anastasia~ † Servant of God † Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    No problem. :)

    There are a few hundred million of us though. :)

    But I realize we are not on some folks' radar, depending on where you live.
     
  12. thecolorsblend

    thecolorsblend If God is your Father, who is your Mother?

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    Agreed. The wild and varying opinions about Sola Scriptura must mean it isn't of God. [Staff edit]

    No it isn't. A casual glance at CF alone indicates nobody completely (or even mostly) on what the scriptures mean.

    ...

    Are you serious? I mean, are you really arguing that Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic and all the rest were lost to history until just 100 years ago?

    In fact it does take a scholar. Translating the words into English is one thing. Reconstructing actual sentence is quite another... especially when Koine Greek, for example, doesn't have punctuation or paragraph breaks. Simply reading the text on the page doesn't readily indicate where a given thought is supposed to end and where a new one begins.

    Even if someone is able to translate the words correctly into English or whatever other modern language, the translator is then faced with a challenge. The original autographs use a lot of idioms and turns-of-phrase that don't easily translate into the target language. So does one translate the text literally and risk it being incomprehensible? Or does one communicate the basic idea of the idiom and risk changing the text?

    Speaking of which, simply recognizing an idiom and understanding the intent thereof is tricky business. It requires an extraordinary degree of knowledge of that culture's language, customs, politics, etc. It's akin to a Chinese person moving to America and not grasping that saying someone "has a big head" means that person is arrogant. The intent of that is easy to understand because Americans today can explain the meaning of it but 2,000 years from now it could be a bit more challenging.

    I realize anybody can go to blue letter Bible and find lexicons, and that's cute. But the fact is there's a LOT more to translating these manuscripts than that.

    The rest of your post is tl;dr... which is an idiom people 2,000 years from now might not completely grasp without a lot of research.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 11, 2017
  13. ToBeLoved

    ToBeLoved Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I will address this very fully when I have more time later this morning or afternoon, I have to be going to work shortly.

    I'm glad you want to have a very in-depth conversation about this because I am all for it.

    blessings until I post again to write the answers to your 'opinions' with no scriptural basis at all. You must be a fairly knowledgeable Catholic to the Bible to want to take on sola sriptura. I find Catholics usually don't delve into scripture to even get as detailed as sola scriptura gets, so this may bless you.

    It will be "interesting."
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 11, 2017
  14. Wolf_Says

    Wolf_Says accompanied by my wife, we strive towards God

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    Sorry, but SS is not true, and is promoted nowhere in the Bible.

    You are correct that God is not the author of confusion, and has sucessfully explain with that 1 sentence why SS does not work (aka look at all the difference denominations of protestants all claiming to follow SS but cannot even agree on whether baptism is necessary for salvation or not.)

    The single proof that SS does not work is the very existence of this forum, where there are constant debates to Christian beliefs, and all sides of the argument point to multiple verses from scripture to back up their claims.
     
  15. Wolf_Says

    Wolf_Says accompanied by my wife, we strive towards God

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    clearly you have not met me then ;)

    Just like every other denomination, you will have those that dive head first and get are far as they can into their faiths, and others who will just stay at the surface and are not capable of defending their faith.

    Until recently I will admit that I was part of that later group, but since my life kind of changed a bit, I have started to dive head first into my faith and have just started to see the vastness that is Catholicism and how beautiful it truly is.

    And on the contrary, the discussion might also bless you, and realize who and how SS does not work.

    My apologies, I was not calling you rude as it was a sarcastic remark.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2017
  16. ToBeLoved

    ToBeLoved Well-Known Member Supporter

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    2 Timothy 3:16-17
    16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

    Looking at the Interlinear Greek, see 2 Timothy 3:17 Interlinear: that the man of God may be fitted -- for every good work having been completed.

    The word used in Greek is artios, looking at the Greek meaning of this word, see http://biblehub.com/greek/artios_739.htm we see that it. If we then reference Strong's Concordance, see http://biblehub.com/greek/artios_739.htm for the Strong's Concordance definition and meaning, we see:

    Strong's Concordance
    artios: fitted, complete
    Original Word: ἄρτιος, ια, ον
    Part of Speech: Adjective
    Transliteration: artios
    Phonetic Spelling: (ar'-tee-os)
    Short Definition: perfect, complete
    Definition: perfect, complete, fitted, ready.

    Please note that this word is an adjective (see above or the link) and that it means perfect.

    God does say that sola scriptura is true. So you are in error,not I.

    The Greek word used is very specific.

    Let me know if you have any questions.
     
  17. Wolf_Says

    Wolf_Says accompanied by my wife, we strive towards God

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    Oh I love that verse, except you are taking it out of context.

    Timothy was talking in regards to the OT because, need we remember, that the NT had not been defined yet at the time of this writing. Paul was not talking about the Bible as a whole, since the Bible did not come about until late in the 4th century.

    So that quote does not represent the entire Bible, but is specifically looking back at the OT, which equipped people to do good works because it gave them the foundation of the laws of God and Jesus.

    The verse also does not state that we must follow the Bible alone.

    [Staff edit]

    You didn't offend me, I don't think anybody on the forum has managed to do that yet.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 11, 2017
  18. South Bound

    South Bound I stand with Israel.

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    Yeah, say that in a Protestant church and see how far you get with it. You'll be laughed out the door, and rightfully so.
     
  19. Wolf_Says

    Wolf_Says accompanied by my wife, we strive towards God

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    I don't see why when it is true.

    If the concept of SS is, that we believe in the Bible and the Bible alone is the highest authority, then why are there so many denominations with such differing ideas in regards to basic things in Christianity such as baptism and the Last Supper?
     
  20. ToBeLoved

    ToBeLoved Well-Known Member Supporter

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    No, Timothy was considered a Gentile, not a Jew. Timothy's mother was a Jew, but his father was a gentile.

    That is why the law-people wanted Timothy circumcised in his adulthood and why Timothy was not circumcised as a child.

    Had Timothy been a Jew, Timothy would have been circumcised in the FIRST WEEK after his birth.

    Acts 16:3
    3 Paul wanted Timothy to accompany him, so he took him and circumcised him on account of the Jews in that area, for they all knew that his father was a Greek.

    Please provide another proof scripture that shows Timothy was speaking about the Old Testament as you say. I can then address whatever text you decide makes your case. TImothy was a gentile.

    I must say, Timothy was devoted to Christ because that must have hurt. OUCH.