Question about praying to Saints in churches.

[The Portuguese Baptist]

So- you consider asking the saints for prayer to be wrong- yet asking those you see at church isn't wrong? It's the same thing- as all are alive in Christ. If you say one is fine and the other wrong- then you're contradicting yourself.

No, I am not contradicting myself! Do not be ridiculous! I have shown you are defeating the basic principles of logic!

Let's analyse this argument carefully one more time. You say: ‘We can pray to brothers at church; brothers at church are alive in Christ; therefore, we can pray to anyone who is alive in Christ.’

That is a fallacy! The fact that we can pray to some of those who are alive in Christ does not mean that we can pray to all those who are alive in Christ. The fact that some Christians are Portuguese does not mean that all Christians are Portuguese. The fact that some fingers are thumbs does not mean that all fingers are thumbs. The fact that some Europeans are French does not mean that all Europeans are French. The fact that some numbers are even does not mean that all numbers are even. The fact that some people are Christians does not mean that all people are Christians.

What more examples can I give? This is what is going on: there is a property (we can ask them to pray for us) that is correctly applied to some of the members (brothers on Earth) which belong to a certain group (those alive in Christ); however, you are incorrectly extending that property to all the members of that same group. You cannot do that. I have given you examples that show this. What more can I say? Will you reject such basic logical concepts?

 

[seashale76]

No, I am not contradicting myself! Do not be ridiculous! I have shown you are defeating the basic principles of logic!

Let's analyse this argument carefully one more time. You say: ‘We can pray to brothers at church; brothers at church are alive in Christ; therefore, we can pray to anyone who is alive in Christ.’

That is a fallacy! The fact that we can pray to some of those who are alive in Christ does not mean that we can pray to all those who are alive in Christ. The fact that some Christians are Portuguese does not mean that all Christians are Portuguese. The fact that some fingers are thumbs does not mean that all fingers are thumbs. The fact that some Europeans are French does not mean that all Europeans are French. The fact that some numbers are even does not mean that all numbers are even. The fact that some people are Christians does not mean that all people are Christians.

What more examples can I give? This is what is going on: there is a property (we can ask them to pray for us) that is correctly applied to some of the members (brothers on Earth) which belong to a certain group (those alive in Christ); however, you are incorrectly extending that property to all the members of that same group. You cannot do that. I have given you examples that show this. What more can I say? Will you reject such basic logical concepts?

What you've posted isn't logic. Either the scriptures are telling the truth- that those people are alive in Christ- or it isn't real and all a bunch of lies. There is no middle ground on this. Christ is either the God of the living and defeated sin and death or He did not and is not.

ETA: Yes- I edited this.

 

[The Portuguese Baptist]

What you've posted isn't logic.

WHAT?! What are you talking about? Would you state your case instead of just spreading untruths like that? Why is it not logic? This is a basic logic principle! A property that applies to part of a group does not necessarily apply to all of it! Gosh! Don't be ridiculous! Accept logic! YOU HAVE NO CASE; otherwise, you would have brought it! YOU HAVE NOT COME UP WITH A SINGLE BIBLICAL PASSAGE that shows you are right: not a single passage that permits praying to those alive in Christ! Bring your passages if you have them! But don't accuse me of being illogical when you are the one being illogical! I have come up with a number of examples that prove you have used a fallacy which would lead to ridiculous conclusions if applied in other situations! YOU HAVE NO CASE!

 

[Goodbook]

Calm down. Those prayers wont get answered anyway. I mean if they were surely we'd have an exclusive st andrews faith community on CF. peopled by christians named Andrew.

Ok lets try praying one now. Saint andrew, I dont know you, but, if you're listening can you show the OP that Jesus is Lord. Thanks.

 

[The Portuguese Baptist]

What you've posted isn't logic. You actually must ignore the scriptures saying that those that have passed are alive in Christ, to hold your position. Either the scriptures are telling the truth- that those people are alive in Christ- or it isn't real and all a bunch of lies. There is no middle ground on this. Christ is either the God of the living and defeated sin and death or He did not and is not.

I DID NOT IGNORE ANY SCRIPTURES! Yes, those people are alive in Christ. But THAT DOES NOT IMPLY THAT YOU CAN PRAY TO THEM! No scriptural passage says you can pray to all those who are alive in Christ, even though you can do it to some of those. Bring your case if I am wrong, but please STOP BEING IRRATIONAL AND ILLOGICAL! Gosh!

And stop editing your posts after you have posted them. I am not warned when you edit previous posts; therefore, if you want to make sure I will read anything you say, you should make a new post — not edit an old one.

 

[seashale76]

WHAT?! What are you talking about? Would you state your case instead of just spreading untruths like that? Why is it not logic? This is a basic logic principle! A property that applies to part of a group does not necessarily apply to all of it! Gosh! Don't be ridiculous! Accept logic! YOU HAVE NO CASE; otherwise, you would have brought it! YOU HAVE NOT COME UP WITH A SINGLE BIBLICAL PASSAGE that shows you are right: not a single passage that permits praying to those alive in Christ! Bring your passages if you have them! But don't accuse me of being illogical when you are the one being illogical! I have come up with a number of examples that prove you have used a fallacy which would lead to ridiculous conclusions if applied in other situations! YOU HAVE NO CASE!

That's the issue here. I do accept logic. Very much so. I also recognize faulty logic when I see it. You claim you ask others to pray for you. You agreed to that. I've already explained to you that even the act of asking others to intercede for you IS prayer, by the English definition. That is called a supplication. In the exact same manner, we ask the saints to also pray for us. Either everyone is alive in Christ or they're really not. There is no in-between and no distinctions.

 

[seashale76]

And stop editing your posts after you have posted them. I am not warned when you edit previous posts; therefore, if you want to make sure I will read anything you say, you should make a new post — not edit an old one.

Yes- I edit my posts. The majority of my edits were to take out the parts where I directly quoted you, so my posts can be read as stand alone responses to the OP. I also made attempts to go from 'you' language to more general language. The reasoning behind that should be fairly obvious. Why would I do that?

 

[The Portuguese Baptist]

Calm down.

(breathe a sigh of relief) You're right. Sorry about that, Goodbook. It's just... some people... You know, I hate to hear I'm being illogical. I'm sure you'll understand. Sorry about my anger.

Those prayers wont get answered anyway. I mean if they were surely we'd have an exclusive st andrews faith community on CF. peopled by christians named Andrew.

LOL

Ok lets try praying one now. Saint andrew, I dont know you, but, if you're listening can you show the OP that Jesus is Lord. Thanks.

(LOL)

 

[seashale76]

Dear OP:
Pray for All Men
1 Timothy 2:1-7
2 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time, 7 for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle—I am speaking the truth in Christ[a] andnot lying—a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.

^This, plus all of the numerous scriptures previously posted about the saints being alive in Christ should show you that we are to pray for others. This includes asking the saints to pray for us, as they are alive in Christ and not dead.

 

[The Portuguese Baptist]

That's the issue here. I do accept logic. Very much so. I also recognize faulty logic when I see it.

Doesn't look like it. You yourself have used faulty logic; I have shown why it is faulty; but you still fail to explain why my logic is faulty.

You claim you ask others to pray for you. You agreed to that. I've already explained to you that even the act of asking others to intercede for you IS prayer, by the English definition. That is called a supplication.

With that, for the sake of the argument, I agree.

In the exact same manner, we ask the saints to also pray for us.

The fact that you do something in the exact same manner as you did it before does not mean it is equally correct. What matters is not the manner in which you do it, but to whom you do it.

Either everyone is alive in Christ or they're really not. There is no in-between and no distinctions.

No distinctions, huh? How about biblical proof?

Yes- I edit my posts. The majority of my edits were to take out the parts where I directly quoted you, so my posts can be read as stand alone responses to the OP. I also made attempts to go from 'you' language to more general language. The reasoning behind that should be fairly obvious. Why would I do that?

You edited post #22 by adding much more that you had written. In the beginning, you only had one sentence, which I quoted in post #23; then, you added much more, and I quoted it all in post #25.

 

[seashale76]

The fact that you do something in the exact same manner as you did it before does not mean it is equally correct. What matters is not the manner in which you do it, but to whom you do it.

It is because there is no difference. It is the same thing. They're alive in Christ, remember?

No distinctions, huh? How about biblical proof?

I already gave it. You either believe the scriptures that say the saints are alive or you don't.

You edited post #22 by adding much more that you had written. In the beginning, you only had one sentence, which I quoted in post #23; then, you added much more, and I quoted it all in post #25.

So, I did. And? I changed it so it wasn't even a response to you at all.

ETA: In fact, my post you're referencing was edited 54 minutes ago and your response to me where you quoted me was made 47 minutes ago. So...

 

[The Portuguese Baptist]

Dear OP:
Pray for All Men
1 Timothy 2:1-7
2 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time, 7 for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle—I am speaking the truth in Christ[a] andnot lying—a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.

^This, plus all of the numerous scriptures previously posted about the saints being alive in Christ should show you that we are to pray for others.

OK.

This includes asking the saints to pray for us, as they are alive in Christ and not dead.

Where do you see that? How does ‘praying for others’ include ‘praying to dead saints that they pray for us’? These instructions are given to us, who are alive on Earth, to pray for other people who are alive on Earth — not to dead saints in Heaven to pray for us here on Earth. Paul is telling us to pray for others — not dead saints to pray for us. The guys in Heaven did not receive a copy of 1 Timothy. We are to pray for others, not ask those dead in Heaven to pray for us.

I have shown (in post #7) a number of passages which show that it is inappropriate for us to pray to dead saints. Interestingly, you have just quoted one of them: 1 Timothy 2:5. We have One Mediator; we do not need anyone else in Heaven to serve as mediators for us.

 

[seashale76]

OK.

Where do you see that? How does ‘praying for others’ include ‘praying to dead saints that they pray for us’? These instructions are given to us, who are alive on Earth, to pray for other people who are alive on Earth — not to dead saints in Heaven to pray for us here on Earth. Paul is telling us to pray for others — not dead saints to pray for us. The guys in Heaven did not receive a copy of 1 Timothy. We are to pray for others, not ask those dead in Heaven to pray for us.

I have shown (in post #7) a number of passages which show that it is inappropriate for us to pray to dead saints. Interestingly, you have just quoted one of them: 1 Timothy 2:5. We have One Mediator; we do not need anyone else in Heaven to serve as mediators for us.

Did you read all the times you've claimed the saints are dead? They're actually not. Go read all the scriptures I posted in my first post in this thread that reiterates how alive they are.

 

[The Portuguese Baptist]

It is because there is no difference. It is the same thing. They're alive in Christ, remember?

Actually, there are a number of differences: your brothers in church are alive, whilst dead saints are dead; your brothers in church are on Earth, whilst dead saints are in Heaven; your brothers in church can hear you, whilst dead saints probably cannot; your brothers in church care about you, whilst dead saints probably do not (they are probably enjoying their eternal rest, and do not want to be disturbed every five seconds by someone who thinks they care about his problems); we are biblically encouraged to pray for one another and to ask prayers from one another, but not to ask prayers from deceased saints. You cannot really saying there is no difference.

I already gave it. You either believe the scriptures that say the saints are alive or you don't.

Being ‘alive in Christ’ or not is not the only difference you can have. I have just written five differences between them.

So, I did. And? I changed it so it wasn't even a response to you at all.

ETA: In fact, my post you're referencing was edited 54 minutes ago and your response to me where you quoted me was made 47 minutes ago. So...

Not according to the times I have on my screen. It seems you have confused it. Your post #22 was created at 23:02 and edited at 23:10; my post #23 was made at 23:10 (Lisbon times).

Ah! I think I know. I think that, when you edit a post, you cannot see the information that you have edited it; but other people can see it: a tiny message appears at the bottom of your post, to the right, saying when was the last time you edited it.

Besides, do not forget that, from the moment I click ‘Reply’ until I actually post, I am creating my reply — which takes a while. Therefore, it was quite possible that: 1) I could click ‘Reply’ and quote your post as it appears initially; then 2) you could edit it whilst I am preparing my reply; and then 3) I could finally post my reply, still quoting the old post — thus, quite some time could go by between steps 2) and 3).

 

[The Portuguese Baptist]

Did you read all the times you've claimed the saints are dead? They're actually not. Go read all the scriptures I posted in my first post in this thread that reiterates how alive they are.

Yes, they are dead. Do you know any brother who has died? Was a funeral held? Why, if, according to you, he is not dead?

According to the most obvious definitions of ‘dead’ and ‘alive’, they are dead. They are not living among us here on Earth any more; for all practical purposes, they are dead. Nowhere in the Bible are we encouraged to pray to dead saints. And nowhere in the Bible are we permitted to pray to all those who is alive in Christ.

 

[seashale76]

Doesn't look like it. You yourself have used faulty logic; I have shown why it is faulty; but you still fail to explain why my logic is faulty.

Not really, but if you want syllogisms, I'll indulge you. I'll even use scripture.

Valid Categorical Syllogism:
All M are P.
All S are M.
Therefore, all S are P.

The believers in Christ, even if they die, will live.
The saints have physically died and believe in Christ.
Therefore, all the saints are alive.

Everyone that lives and believes in Christ will never die.
The saints live and believe in Christ.
Therefore, the saints will never die.

All Christians should make supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks for all men.
All saints are Christians.
Therefore, all saints should make supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks for all men.

 

[topcare]

It does appear that some believe that God is the God of the dead not the living

 

[The Portuguese Baptist]

Not really, but if you want syllogisms, I'll indulge you. I'll even use scripture.

Valid Categorical Syllogism:
All M are P.
All S are M.
Therefore, all S are P.

Yes, that is a valid syllogism. The problem is that you were using an invalid type of syllogism, which was:
All M are P. (All brothers at church are eligible to pray for us.)
All M are S. (All brothers at church are alive in Christ.)
Therefore, all S are P. (Therefore, all those who are alive in Christ are eligible to pray for us.)

The believers in Christ, even if they die, will live.
The saints have physically died and believe in Christ.
Therefore, all the saints are alive.

Everyone that lives and believes in Christ will never die.
The saints live and believe in Christ.
Therefore, the saints will never die.

Yes, that is OK.

All Christians should make supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks for all men.
All saints are Christians.
Therefore, all saints should make supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks for all men.

Hmm... I have two questions regarding that one:

1. Can dead saints still be called Christians? I mean, supposedly, the word ‘Christian’ means ‘follower of Christ’. Once you're dead, are you still following Christ? Doesn't make much sense... We follow Christ here on Earth — but, once we get to Heaven, I think the label ‘Christian’ will become deprecated, because we will not need it any more to distinguish ourselves from anyone else. When you talk about someone who has died, you generally say ‘He was a Christian’ — not ‘He is a Christian’. Besides, the instructions to ‘make supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks for all men’ are written in letters, which are for us who are alive on Earth (again, the dead saints in Heaven did not get a copy of these letters).
2. Even if I am wrong about that first question, and even if the saints in Heaven are really praying for us (which, I insist, sounds very unlikely to me), that still does not mean that we can pray to them that they will pray for us — if they are really aware of our problems, they do not need us to remind them about it.

Besides, do not forget that there is not even any indication that they can hear us from Heaven.

I am a bit tired of writing now. It's 00:32, and I should have gone to bed an hour ago, because I need to wake up at 08:30 to go to church. Meanwhile, I leave you with this article: http://www.gotquestions.org/prayer-saints-Mary.html.

God bless you!

 

[seashale76]

Hmm... I have two questions regarding that one:

1. Can dead saints still be called Christians? I mean, supposedly, the word ‘Christian’ means ‘follower of Christ’. Once you're dead, are you still following Christ? Doesn't make much sense... We follow Christ here on Earth — but, once we get to Heaven, I think the label ‘Christian’ will become deprecated, because we will not need it any more to distinguish ourselves from anyone else. When you talk about someone who has died, you generally say ‘He was a Christian’ — not ‘He is a Christian’. Besides, the instructions to ‘make supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks for all men’ are written in letters, which are for us who are alive on Earth (again, the dead saints in Heaven did not get a copy of these letters).

Again, the scriptures reiterate again and again that they're alive. Yes, they ARE Christians.

2. Even if I am wrong about that first question, and even if the saints in Heaven are really praying for us (which, I insist, sounds very unlikely to me), that still does not mean that we can pray to them that they will pray for us — if they are really aware of our problems, they do not need us to remind them about it.

Besides, do not forget that there is not even any indication that they can hear us from Heaven.

In the scriptures they are referred to as a 'great cloud of witnesses' and we're also told they DO pray for us. Seriously, read the numerous scriptures I quoted in my first post.

Meanwhile, I leave you with this article: http://www.gotquestions.org/prayer-saints-Mary.html.

God bless you!

I have no questions I need answers to regarding prayer and the saints. I was raised in Evangelicalism and I already know what they're against. I'll leave you with this: http://www.orthodoxprayer.org/Saints in Prayer.html God bless you, as well.

 

[Albion]

If anyone has ever asked for ANYONE else to pray for them, then they've asked for intercessions. When a person asks for prayers they've actually prayed for others to pray for them, by the English definition of the word. These types of prayer lists and praying for people is common in Baptist churches and other Evangelical groups. Are those who pray for others in the Baptist/Evangelical churches alive in Christ?

That advice was given about one's neighbor. Obviously, praying to spirits is another matter, even if we try to say there's no difference merely because both continue to exist. In addition, we do not know if the spirits can hear our prayer. It's not so with asking a neighbor or friend or family member for prayer. And if it's a spirit, we don't even know if the one to whom we are praying is in heaven or hell. Again, that's not the case with our neighbors.