Question about praying to Saints in churches.

[Albion]

Hmm... I have two questions regarding that one:

1. Can dead saints still be called Christians? I mean, supposedly, the word ‘Christian’ means ‘follower of Christ’. Once you're dead, are you still following Christ?

Probably, "yes."

Even if I am wrong about that first question, and even if the saints in Heaven are really praying for us (which, I insist, sounds very unlikely to me), that still does not mean that we can pray to them that they will pray for us

That's true.

Besides, do not forget that there is not even any indication that they can hear us from Heaven.

Also true.

 

[seashale76]

That advice was given about one's neighbor. Obviously, praying to spirits is another matter, even if we try to say there's no difference merely because both continue of them to live. In addition, we do not know if the spirits can hear our prayer, not so with asking a neighbor or friend or family member for prayer, and we don't even know if the one to whom we are praying is in heaven or hell. Again, that's not the case with our neighbors.

The Church is guided by the Holy Spirit. We know quite a few saints.

 

[Albion]

The Church is guided by the Holy Spirit. We know quite a few saints.

"The Church is guided by the Holy Spirit" could be the answer to any question asked on these forums, I suppose; but usually we explain that our answer is in accord with Scripture, Tradition, Reason, Church History, or something more persuasive to the folks who think that the Holy Spirit guides THEIR church and their own convictions, don't you know?

 

[seashale76]

"The Church is guided by the Holy Spirit" could be the answer to any question asked on these forums, I suppose; but usually we explain that our answer is in accord with Scripture, Tradition, Reason, Church History, or something more persuasive to the folks who think that the Holy Spirit guides THEIR church and their own convictions, don't you know?

Well, then, that's absolutely sorted when it comes to this topic (i.e. all of the above apply in this situation). Why are you arguing against it then?

 

[Albion]

Well, then, that's absolutely sorted when it comes to this topic (i.e. all of the above apply in this situation). Why are you arguing against it then?

Sorted?

 

[insurchoftruth]

There is not a single verse in the whole New Testament, where there is an example, that anybody, can pray to saints. In fact, every born again Christian, is called a saint in the Bible! Praying to Mary, the mother of Jesus, or to saint, and Monasticism, appeared a few hundreds of years, after the death and the resurrection of Jesus, and was made up, from some people, but does not come out of the New Testament.

 

[topcare]

Then you need to read the thread because there are.

 

[Goodbook]

Hmm.
Still waiting for saint andrew to reply.

Thats funny.
I get better answers when I pray to God.

 

[seashale76]

Anyone that promotes divining God's will through perceived supernatural signs such as rainbows and birds, and further is convinced that whatever one conceives in their own head must obviously be of God- without resorting to scripture to back that up as they claim 'God is a personal God' (and considers anyone that wears black a witch- amongst numerous other things)- has absolutely no ground to even remotely question something like prayers of the saints. As Albion kindly brought up, scripture, reason, Tradition, and Church History back up prayers of the saints.

 

[The Portuguese Baptist]

Again, the scriptures reiterate again and again that they're alive. Yes, they ARE Christians.

Why do you say that ‘being alive’ means the same as ‘being a Christian’? Where do you see that? In all of the passages I'm aware of where the word ‘Christian’ appears, it only refers to living people: Acts of the Apostles 11:26, Acts of the Apostles 26:28 and 1 Peter 4:16.

In the scriptures they are referred to as a 'great cloud of witnesses'

OK…

and we're also told they DO pray for us.

Firstly: where? And, secondly: even if they do, where does it says we can pray to them? After all this time, all you can say is ‘they are alive in Christ’ — but you still cannot show how that is related with ‘we can pray to them’.

Seriously, read the numerous scriptures I quoted in my first post.

Which of those says we can pray to saints?

I have no questions I need answers to regarding prayer and the saints. I was raised in Evangelicalism and I already know what they're against. I'll leave you with this: http://www.orthodoxprayer.org/Saints in Prayer.html God bless you, as well.

That article is ridiculous!

It begins with a lie: ‘Saints are those holy individuals who have died as martyrs, who have made a fearless confession of faith often with the threat of death, who have demonstrated self-sacrificing service, who have a special gift of healing and perform miracles after their death when remembered in prayer.’ That is not true according to the Bible. The Bible uses the term ‘saints’ to refer to all Christians — not only some of those who have already died, after receiving papal recognition:

• ‘But Ananias answered, “Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much evil he has done to your saints at Jerusalem.”’ (Acts of the Apostles 9:13, ESV);
• ‘Now as Peter went here and there among them all, he came down also to the saints who lived at Lydda.’ (Acts of the Apostles 9:32, ESV) — saints live on Earth;
• ‘And I did so in Jerusalem. I not only locked up many of the saints in prison after receiving authority from the chief priests, but when they were put to death I cast my vote against them.’ (Acts of the Apostles 26:10, ESV) — saints can be put in prison;
• ‘To the church of God that is in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints together with all those who in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both their Lord and ours: […]’ (1 Corinthians 1:2, ESV) — all the members of the church of Corinth were saints;
• ‘[…] to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, […]’ (Ephesians 4:12, ESV) — saints can be equipped for the work of God.

Then, of course, they present no biblical passages to support the case that we can pray to saints (which is not surprising, since there aren't any). The only biblical passage they use is misquoted. They mention Hebrews 12:22-23, which they incorrectly quote as: ‘Our communion in prayer with the saints is the realization of the bond between Christians on earth and the Heavenly Church’, when, in fact, it says: ‘But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in Heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, […]’. Clearly, this is very different. Something weird must have happened here.

Then, of course, they just write unexplained things: ‘Sacred scripture presents numerous examples that the righteous, while still living can see and hear and know much that is inaccessible to the ordinary understanding.’ Where? ‘The saints while they were still on earth we able to penetrate in spirit into the world above.’ Where do you see that?

Then, they write: ‘From the parable of the rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16:10-31) we know that Abraham being in heaven could hear the cry of the rich man who was suffering in hell, despite the great unbridgeable gulf that separates them.’ But how does that have anything to with dead saints hearing us from Earth?

This article is nonsensical!

 

[seashale76]

Trying to separate believers that are alive in Christ from Christians is grasping for straws. I see lots of denial, dodging, and ignoring of previously posted things. Everything I've posted stands and it makes perfect sense. People are either going to accept or reject it. However, it is very telling, isn't it? I see all sorts of unbiblical things accepted by people on this board, yet they unfailingly attack Holy Tradition. Everyone always attacks Orthodoxy. Always. Whereas, pretty much anything else goes. There are implications to everything you believe and reject- because what you believe does matter. However, the things many of you reject also mean that you must call into question the Early Church Fathers that also believed these things and think they're liars (you know- the ones that gave you the NT and the Nicene Creed you have to claim to believe to be here on this site). May God guide you to Himself.

 

[The Portuguese Baptist]

Trying to separate believers that are alive in Christ from Christians is grasping for straws. I see lots of denial, dodging, and ignoring of previously posted things. Everything I've posted stands and it makes perfect sense. People are either going to accept or reject it. However, it is very telling, isn't it? I see all sorts of unbiblical things accepted by people on this board, yet they unfailingly attack Holy Tradition. Everyone always attacks Orthodoxy. Always. Whereas, pretty much anything else goes. There are implications to everything you believe and reject- because what you believe does matter. However, the things many of you reject also mean that you must call into question the Early Church Fathers that also believed these things and think they're liars (you know- the ones that gave you the NT and the Nicene Creed you have to claim to believe to be here on this site). May God guide you to Himself.

OK, so… From that, I can assume you have no better scriptural passages to prove your case, so you resort to tradition, to the Church Fathers and to the Nicene Creed to make your case (I would like to see where you can see anything related with praying to saints in the Nicene Creed — it's probably not there, just as it is not in the Bible).

Beware, though, that the church's tradition, the Church Fathers' beliefs and the Nicene Creed have absolutely no authority whatsoever when it comes to saying what is true. Only the Bible is absolutely and unequivocally true. So, if you are bringing these people to justify your beliefs, I will reject your case. I adhere to Sola Scriptura — if the Bible does not say it, it cannot be considered absolutely correct; and, if the Bible contradicts it, it is to be absolutely and thoroughly ignored.

I rest my case.

 

[Albion]

Trying to separate believers that are alive in Christ from Christians is grasping for straws. I see lots of denial, dodging, and ignoring of previously posted things. Everything I'vbe posted stands and it makes perfect sense.

...Not that someone who is alive is the same as someone who has died.

Yes, it's great to speak in transcendent terms, but a spirit is not the same as a mortal, no matter how it's worded.

 

[seashale76]

...Not that someone who is alive is the same as someone who has died.

Yes, it's great to speak in transcendent terms, but a spirit is not the same as a mortal, no matter how it's worded.

So, the scriptures are lying? Okay.

 

[Albion]

So, the scriptures are lying? Okay.

Give me a serious response and I'll be glad to discuss further.

 

[topcare]

Only the Bible is absolutely and unequivocally true

Says who? Someone die and leave you in charge? Can you show Scripture that says that, otherwise it's just your opinion. If it wasn't for Holy Tradition there would be no Bible. Christ did not leave a book He left a Church.

 

[Albion]

Says who? Someone die and leave you in charge? Can you show Scripture that says that, otherwise it's just your opinion.

Well, no. The Bible does say that it's of supreme worth and we all agree--do we not?--that it's divine revelation. So if that's true, are you telling us that God can't be trusted, or is it that he left us with an incomplete or unreliable testament?

If it wasn't for Holy Tradition there would be no Bible.

That's just a line. It's not true (and, in fact, it doesn't even make sense). The fact that church leaders gathered to decide which books that were being used in the churches were actually deserving does not mean that "Holy Tradition" created the Bible.

 

[seashale76]

Well, no. The Bible does say that it's of supreme worth and we all agree--do we not?--that it's divine revelation. So if that's true, are you telling us that God can't be trusted, or is it that he left us with an incomplete or unreliable testament?

The bible says the Church is the pillar and foundation of the Truth.

That's just a line. It's not true (and, in fact, it doesn't even make sense). The fact that church leaders gathered to decide which books that were being used in the churches were actually deserving does not mean that "Holy Tradition" created the Bible.

False. Holy Tradition refers to the Church being led by the Holy Spirit. The church leaders gathering in the Ecumenical Councils were guided by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Albion]

The bible says the Church is the pillar and foundation of the Truth.

No, it says that the Household of God or the people (who, in the bigger sense, constitute the church) are that.

Holy Tradition refers to the Church being led by the Holy Spirit.

No, it doesn't. I explained what is meant by the term several times already. I'd appreciate it if you'd recover that information if we're to discuss it further.

 

[Wgw]

That advice was given about one's neighbor. Obviously, praying to spirits is another matter, even if we try to say there's no difference merely because both continue to exist. In addition, we do not know if the spirits can hear our prayer. It's not so with asking a neighbor or friend or family member for prayer. And if it's a spirit, we don't even know if the one to whom we are praying is in heaven or hell. Again, that's not the case with our neighbors.

Actually we do know it in the case of various saints; that is why St. Andrew is regarded as a saint, and commemorated even in the Anglican churches. Indeed, the mere suggestion that St. Andrew the First Called would be in hell is frankly contrary to piety.