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Question about praying to Saints in churches.

layhoma2004

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I have been attending this Church for several years. I believed it's an Anglican based church. 99% of the praise & worship services I felt comfortable with except for the 1%. I tried to disregard this incident that happened about 3-4 times but I felt a great sense of unease on my last service.

The preacher had a long sermon about praying to St Andrew ....etc Natually my mind was blocked. Suffice to say I'm a bible following Christian. I hope I don't offend any bros or sis who are catholic but I choose to believe that the only prayers I'm allowed to make are those directed to the Triune God. Trinity. It is extremely challenging for me to accept the concept of praying to a Saint so he could more effectively relay our prayers to the Almighty. That is the concept no ?

I need your sharing and opinion on this subject. You don't have to reveal your denomination, it's irrelevant. This isn't a debate. I'm just here to seek enlightenment and whether my reaction is justified. Thanks
 
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Albion

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I'm an Anglican and neither I nor my church pray to the saints. Of course, I don't know what church you were attending, so I can't comment on that. While there are some Anglicans who DO pray to the saints for their intercession with God, I still find a long sermon on the merits of praying to St. Andrew to be strange, not to mention it was done several times??? You said it's an "Anglican based" church, not an Anglican one, so that may hint at the answer.
 
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com7fy8

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I would say if a preacher uses a main amount of sermon time to give attention to a saint, instead of to Jesus and God's word, this is a major concern.

If you were a saint in Heaven glorifying Jesus in praise and worship, how would you "like" to hear a minister on earth preaching about you, instead of Jesus?

Also > James 5:16 does say >

"Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much." (James 5:16)

To me, Layhoma, this means God has ordained each of us children of God to have mutual confession > "to one another", this says; and I understand that God means, here, how all of us are ordained to share in mutual healing prayer, to get us "healed". I understand this means correctively "healed" of whatever in our character makes us able to sin and to keep on suffering in the weakness of our own egos . . . plus "healed" more and more together with God in His love, instead > 1 John 4:17.

So, if my understanding of this is correct, this shows how much God can use you to pray for others . . . but not just with people glorifying you by seeking you for prayer, but in mutual confession with mutual praying "for one another" . . . no one exalted over anyone > we all need corrective healing > Hebrews 12:8.

And, by the way, there are people who are not qualified to be pastors. So, in case you discover a minister who is even contrary to God's word . . . first of all, we the children of God are judged >

"For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?" (1 Peter 4:17)

So, in case you discover that a pastor is clearly wrong and not qualified, "first" we ourselves are being judged, if we are ones who are right with God, I understand. And so, our main attention needs to be to seeking our Father for our own correction.

I find that, in large institutionalized religious groups, it is possible for even very wrong people to use politics to become pastors and then rise up in their hierarchies. But, even so, possibly there still can be real pastors in groups whose higher leadership has been taken over by unscriptural people. So, yes we need to prayerfully evaluate church leaders and discover the ones who are qualified and who God trusts to take care of His people, and obey the ones who are God's trusted example leaders > 1 Timothy 3:1-10, 1 Peter 5:3, Hebrews 13:17.

So, you are expected to be able to tell the difference. You do not have to just take anyone's say-so. Make sure with God.

But, then, also . . . if you go to a Baptist church . . . there are unqualified Baptist preachers who are not Bible-qualified pastors. So we are accountable to make sure with God about whom He trusts to "take care of the church of God" (in 1 Timothy 3:1-10) and therefore whom He expects us to also trust. And our Father does personally guide us, willing to guide us "continually" (Isaiah 58:11); so yes we can be guided to whomever He knows He approves and trusts; so if I discover I have trusted a wrong person, I am concerned about if I have been obeying how God would guide me; I do not need to be fussing and stinking about how someone betrayed and tricked and failed me, but how did I fool my own self into trusting someone who God was not guiding me to trust????
 
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seashale76

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I pray to the saints. I also ask you to forgive me here, because what I'm posting now is a much older post of mine that I always reuse when this topic comes up (no point in reinventing new posts for old questions).

I pray thee good sir, to hearken unto my post.

There are around six different Greek words that are usually translated into English as 'prayer'. These words encompass supplications, interecessions, thanksgiving, etc. Prayer to the saints IS NOT WORSHIP! I Timothy 2:4 upholds the practice of intercession for others, and we are quite cognizant of the fact that Christ's mediation is what makes intercession possible.

The saints are alive in Christ. Mary, the Theotokos (God bearer) does intercede for us through prayer, as do ALL the saints. When a person asks the Theotokos, or any other saint, to pray for them, it is just like when we ask for anyone else to pray for us. Those in the Church are ALIVE in Christ, because God is the God of the living and not the dead.

As the Paschal Troparion says: Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death, and upon those in the tombs bestowing life!

Scriptures relating to saints being alive in Christ, et cetera:
John 6:47-51
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. I am that bread of life. Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead. This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”

John 5:25-29
“Truly, truly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself, and has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of man. Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment.

Matthew 27:51-53
“And behold, the veil of the sanctuary was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth quaked, rocks were split, tombs were opened, and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised. And coming forth from their tombs after his resurrection, they entered the holy city and appeared to many.”

John 11:23-27
“Jesus said to her, ‘Your brother will rise.’ Martha said to him, ‘I know he will rise, in the resurrection on the last day.’ ”

“Jesus told her, ‘I am the resurrection and the life; whoever believes in me, even if he dies, will live, and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?’ ” She said to him, ‘Yes, Lord. I have come to believe that you are the Messiah, the Son of God, ...’ ”

Matthew 22:32
“ ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.”

Luke 20:38
“and he is not God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”

Revelation 21:27
“ … but nothing unclean will enter it, nor any (one) who does abominable things or tells lies. Only those will enter whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.”

John 8:51
“Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever keeps my word will never see death.”

Revelation 5:8-10
“… and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints; and they sang a new song, saying, ‘Worthy art thou to take the scroll and to open its seals, for thou wast slain and by thy blood didst ransom men for God from every tribe and tongue and people and nation,10 and hast made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on earth.’ ”

Revelation 11:16-18
“And the twenty-four elders who sit on their thrones before God fell on their faces and worshiped God, saying, ‘We give thanks to thee, Lord God Almighty, who art and who wast, that thou hast taken thy great power and begun to reign. The nations raged, but thy wrath came, and the time for the dead to be judged, for rewarding thy servants, the prophets and saints, and those who fear thy name, both small and great, and for destroying the destroyers of the earth.’ ”

Hebrews 12:1
“Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us rid ourselves of every burden and sin that clings to us and persevere in running the race that lies before us"

Luke 15:7
“I tell you, in just the same way there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous people who have no need of repentance.”

Hebrews 12:22-23"No, you have approached Mount Zion and the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and countless angels in festal gathering,
and the assembly of the firstborn enrolled in heaven, and God the judge of all, and the spirits of the just made perfect,"

Revelation 8:3
“I saw another angel who came and stood before the altar holding a golden censer and much incense was given to him that he might add it to the prayers of the saints upon the golden altar that was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense with the prayers of the saints went up before God out of the angel’s hand. And the angel took the censer and he filled it with the fire from the altar and threw it to the earth and there followed peals of thunder, and sounds and flashes of lightning and an earthquake."
 
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seashale76

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FYI: We commemorate saints every day on the Church Calendar (even St. Andrew the first called). For example, in church we have hymns for the saints commemorated.

Troparion (Tone 4)
Andrew, first-called of the Apostles
and brother of the foremost disciple,
entreat the Master of all
to grant peace to the world
and to our souls great mercy.
Kontakion (Tone 2)
Let us praise Andrew, the herald of God,
the namesake of courage,
the first-called of the Savior's disciples
and the brother of Peter.
As he once called to his brother, he now cries out to us:
"Come, for we have found the One whom the world desires!"

Also- if you'd like to see how our prayers are during divine liturgy- then here you are. (The entire thing is labelled so you can see what you're listening to.)
 
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The Portuguese Baptist

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I have been attending this Church for several years. I believed it's an Anglican based church. 99% of the praise & worship services I felt comfortable with except for the 1%. I tried to disregard this incident that happened about 3-4 times but I felt a great sense of unease on my last service.

The preacher had a long sermon about praying to St Andrew ....etc Natually my mind was blocked. Suffice to say I'm a bible following Christian. I hope I don't offend any bros or sis who are catholic but I choose to believe that the only prayers I'm allowed to make are those directed to the Triune God. Trinity. It is extremely challenging for me to accept the concept of praying to a Saint so he could more effectively relay our prayers to the Almighty. That is the concept no ?

I need your sharing and opinion on this subject. You don't have to reveal your denomination, it's irrelevant. This isn't a debate. I'm just here to seek enlightenment and whether my reaction is justified. Thanks

We are NOT, BY ANY MEANS, supposed to pray to ANYONE BESIDES THE LORD OUR GOD! The Bible NEVER EVEN HINTS at such a horrible thing. In fact, I am convinced that praying to saints can really be regarded as offensive towards God, because: 1) it places God at the same level as saints; and 2) it implies that we find God insufficient for us.

Such an idea of praying to saints is absolutely contrary to the Bible:
  • 1 Timothy 2:5 says: ‘For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus.’ If there is one mediator, then there is no other mediator. No saint in Heaven will intercede for us.
  • Jesus is our High Priest (Hebrews 4:14), who intercedes for us (Hebrews 7:25), and who is holy and ‘set apart from sinners, exalted above the Heavens’ (Hebrews 7:26). With Jesus as our High Priest and Only Mediator, we need no-one else.
  • The Bible gives no indication that the saints can even hear us from Heaven. Only God is omniscient (1 John 3:20).
  • Finally, the Bible nowhere gives examples of prayers to saints, and neither does it ever command or suggest it.
 
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The Portuguese Baptist

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I pray to the saints. I also ask you to forgive me here, because what I'm posting now is a much older post of mine that I always reuse when this topic comes up (no point in reinventing new posts for old questions).

I pray thee good sir, to hearken unto my post.

There are around six different Greek words that are usually translated into English as 'prayer'. These words encompass supplications, interecessions, thanksgiving, etc. Prayer to the saints IS NOT WORSHIP! I Timothy 2:4 upholds the practice of intercession for others, and we are quite cognizant of the fact that Christ's mediation is what makes intercession possible.

The saints are alive in Christ. Mary, the Theotokos (God bearer) does intercede for us through prayer, as do ALL the saints. When a person asks the Theotokos, or any other saint, to pray for them, it is just like when we ask for anyone else to pray for us. Those in the Church are ALIVE in Christ, because God is the God of the living and not the dead.

As the Paschal Troparion says: Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death, and upon those in the tombs bestowing life!

Scriptures relating to saints being alive in Christ, et cetera:

John 6:47-51
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. I am that bread of life. Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead. This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”

John 5:25-29
“Truly, truly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself, and has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of man. Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment.

Matthew 27:51-53
“And behold, the veil of the sanctuary was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth quaked, rocks were split, tombs were opened, and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised. And coming forth from their tombs after his resurrection, they entered the holy city and appeared to many.”

John 11:23-27
“Jesus said to her, ‘Your brother will rise.’ Martha said to him, ‘I know he will rise, in the resurrection on the last day.’ ”

“Jesus told her, ‘I am the resurrection and the life; whoever believes in me, even if he dies, will live, and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?’ ” She said to him, ‘Yes, Lord. I have come to believe that you are the Messiah, the Son of God, ...’ ”

Matthew 22:32
“ ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.”

Luke 20:38
“and he is not God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”

Revelation 21:27
“ … but nothing unclean will enter it, nor any (one) who does abominable things or tells lies. Only those will enter whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.”

John 8:51
“Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever keeps my word will never see death.”

Revelation 5:8-10
“… and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints; and they sang a new song, saying, ‘Worthy art thou to take the scroll and to open its seals, for thou wast slain and by thy blood didst ransom men for God from every tribe and tongue and people and nation,10 and hast made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on earth.’ ”

Revelation 11:16-18
“And the twenty-four elders who sit on their thrones before God fell on their faces and worshiped God, saying, ‘We give thanks to thee, Lord God Almighty, who art and who wast, that thou hast taken thy great power and begun to reign. The nations raged, but thy wrath came, and the time for the dead to be judged, for rewarding thy servants, the prophets and saints, and those who fear thy name, both small and great, and for destroying the destroyers of the earth.’ ”

Hebrews 12:1
“Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us rid ourselves of every burden and sin that clings to us and persevere in running the race that lies before us"

Luke 15:7
“I tell you, in just the same way there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous people who have no need of repentance.”

Hebrews 12:22-23"No, you have approached Mount Zion and the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and countless angels in festal gathering,
and the assembly of the firstborn enrolled in heaven, and God the judge of all, and the spirits of the just made perfect,"

Revelation 8:3
“I saw another angel who came and stood before the altar holding a golden censer and much incense was given to him that he might add it to the prayers of the saints upon the golden altar that was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense with the prayers of the saints went up before God out of the angel’s hand. And the angel took the censer and he filled it with the fire from the altar and threw it to the earth and there followed peals of thunder, and sounds and flashes of lightning and an earthquake."

Hmm... None of those passages allows praying to saints. Besides, what does ‘being alive in Christ’ have anything to do with ‘being able to hear our prayers’?
 
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seashale76

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If anyone has ever asked for ANYONE else to pray for them, then they've asked for intercessions. When a person asks for prayers they've actually prayed for others to pray for them, by the English definition of the word. These types of prayer lists and praying for people is common in Baptist churches and other Evangelical groups. Are those who pray for others in the Baptist/Evangelical churches alive in Christ? The passages I quoted prove that the saints are alive in Christ because he's the God of the living and not the dead. We ask for their intercessions because of this.

I'm always and forever amazed how Orthodox Christianity always gets people's ire up. It means we're doing something right- and we don't apologize for it.
 
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If you've ever asked ANYONE to pray for you, then you've asked for intercessions. You've actually prayed for others to pray for you, by the English definition of the word. These types of prayer lists and praying for people is common in Baptist churches. Are those who pray for you in your Baptist church alive in Christ? The passages I quoted prove that the saints are alive in Christ because he's the God of the living and not the dead. We ask for their intercessions because of this.

I'm always and forever amazed how Orthodox Christianity always gets people's ire up. It means we're doing something right- and we don't apologize for it.
To layhoma2000, The Bible is very clear about this subject as you can read in the following verse of scripture:

1 Timothy 2:5New King James Version (NKJV)
5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,
There is NO ONE that we can pray to God the Father through, then Jesus!!!
 
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seashale76

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^That's awesome. I referenced that verse in my first post. Those that intercede for us also go through Christ. We also pray through Christ. Do other never ask anyone to pray for them? The God I worship is the God of the living and not the dead.
 
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topcare

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Suffice to say I'm a bible following Christian

So are Traditional Christians such as Anglicans, Catholics, Orthodox, etc we just understand that the Bible is not the end of Christianity and that Holy Tradition, out of which the Bible came, also plays a part. As far as praying to Saints it's no different than you praying to others to intervene when you or yours is sick. Yes when you ask someone to intervene for you (pray for you) you are praying to them. Praying simply means "to ask" it's some Protestants who made the word praying mean something it doesn't
 
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topcare

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The God I worship is the God of the living and not the dead.

Sometimes I wonder if evangelicals and fundamentalist worship a God of the dead because they don't seem to understand that even when the physical body stops functioning Christians are still very much alive. As my Priest is fond of quoting "We are surrounded by a cloud of witnesses"
 
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The Portuguese Baptist

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If you've ever asked ANYONE to pray for you, then you've asked for intercessions. You've actually prayed for others to pray for you, by the English definition of the word. These types of prayer lists and praying for people is common in Baptist churches. Are those who pray for you in your Baptist church alive in Christ? The passages I quoted prove that the saints are alive in Christ because he's the God of the living and not the dead. We ask for their intercessions because of this.

Hmm... Let me see if I've got it. According to you:
  • Premise: It is OK to ask brothers here on Earth to pray for us.
  • Premise: These brothers are alive in Christ.
  • Conclusion: Therefore, it is OK to ask anyone who is alive in Christ to pray for us.
  • Premise: Dead saints are alive in Christ.
  • Conclusion: Therefore, it is OK to ask dead saints to pray for us.
I think the fallacy is evident. The problem, of course, is with the first conclusion. Just because these brothers are alive in Christ, that doesn't make it OK to pray to anyone who is alive in Christ.

This fallacy is the same fallacy that is present, for example, in this argument: ‘I am Portuguese; I am a Christian; therefore, all Christians are Portuguese.’ What is the problem? The problem is that it is not the fact that I am a Christian that makes me Portuguese (even though it is true that I am both); the concepts are not related.

Similarly, it is not the fact that our brothers on Earth are alive in Christ that makes them eligible to pray for me (even though it is true that they are both alive in Christ and eligible to pray for me); the concepts are not related.

Unless, of course, you can scripturally prove this connexion you have attempted to make. Can you get any biblical passage that says anything like, ‘You may ask anyone who is alive in Christ to pray for you’?

I'm always and forever amazed how Orthodox Christianity always gets people's ire up. It means we're doing something right- and we don't apologize for it.

Wow! So, if you get people's ire up, you are correct. By that standard, it is OK for jihadists to kill people in the name of Islam (because it gets our ire up).
 
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seashale76

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Are the saints alive in Christ or aren't they? I've already posted a lot of scripture that says they are. Do some here not believe the scriptures?

ETA: The truth burns. People don't like to hear it and try to shut it down.
 
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The Portuguese Baptist

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Are the saints alive in Christ or aren't they? I've already posted a lot of scripture that says they are. Do you not believe the scriptures?

Yes, they are! But so what? How do you go from ‘they are alive in Christ’ to ‘we can pray to them’?

ETA: The truth burns. People don't like to hear it and try to shut it down.

Indeed.
 
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seashale76

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Yes, they are! But so what? How do you go from ‘they are alive in Christ’ to ‘we can pray to them’?
Do you ask those in your church to pray for you? I bet you do. Did you know that the act of asking them to pray for you is praying to those people?
 
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The Portuguese Baptist

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Do you ask those in your church to pray for you? I bet you do. Did you know that the act of asking them to pray for you is praying to those people?

Yes, I do ask them.

I would not call it ‘praying’ to them. In the Bible, the term ‘praying’ is used only when it refers to direct communication with God. You never see sentences addressed at anyone like ‘I pray to you that you pray for me’. Therefore, when I say I pray, I only pray to God the Father through Jesus Christ his Son. It sounds weird to use the same word when asking others to pray for us.

However, for the sake of the argument (since it won't change the final conclusion anyway), let's say that, yes, I pray to my brothers at church that they may pray for me. So what?
 
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seashale76

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Yep- I sure am editing this post again (for the third time). I don't want to be too provocative. Editing isn't a bad thing, folks.

I hate to say it, but the impression I'm getting from some in this thread is that they consider praying for others to be bad. That's intercession- and some seem to think that is wrong and/or pointless?

Seriously- either the scriptures are telling the truth or they're lying. Either the saints are alive in Christ or Christ was lying about that and they're just simply dead.
 
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grandvizier1006

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There is little need for an intercession like a saint. The whole point of the new covenant was so that humanity could have access to God in the flesh--Christ. Although I don't think it does much harm, either. I just don't see the point in asking someone else, already in Heaven, to pray to God for you. God already notices you. I admire the Catholic and Orthodox churches' tradition of honoring admirable Christians, but they were ultimately mortal men and women. To put them up there just seems wrong to me, even if it isn't worship.
 
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