Question about praying to Saints in churches.

[Albion]

Actually we do know it in the case of various saints; that is why St. Andrew is regarded as a saint, and commemorated even in the Anglican churches. Indeed, the mere suggestion that St. Andrew the First Called would be in hell is frankly contrary to piety.

Hold your fire. It's true (and I almost mentioned it in my previous post) that there are some saints about whom we all can be quite confident that they are in Heaven. The Apostles, for instance. BUT while that's true of these saints, prayers are directed -- with EO and RCC church permission -- to a host of others about whom that cannot be said.

In Orthodoxy, there are people considered to be saints only because they were popular with the people. In the Roman Church where there is a formal process, it's still taken for granted that the faithful will pray to the deceased while awaiting the necessary investigation into whether or not they are going to be canonized by the church!

So I think my point remains. In addition, this says nothing about the practice of praying to the saints for intercession being proper, even if we have a good reason for thinking them to be among those who are in Heaven.

 

[Wgw]

Hold your fire. It's true (and I almost mentioned it in my previous post) that there are some saints about whom we all can be quite confident that they are in Heaven. The Apostles, for instance. BUT while that's true of these saints, prayers are directed -- with EO and RCC church permission -- to a host of others about whom that cannot be said.

In Orthodoxy, there are people considered to be saints only because they were popular with the people. In the Roman Church where there is a formal process, it's still taken for granted that the faithful will pray to the deceased while awaiting the necessary investigation into whether or not they are going to be canonized by the church!

So I think my point remains. In addition, this says nothing about the practice of praying to the saints for intercession being proper, even if we have a good reason for thinking them to be among those who are in Heaven.

There is a formal process of glorification in the Orthodox Church which is distinct from the RC process. I am not going to argue about the relative merits of these, or the Anglican low church view which limits saints to various Biblical figures.

 

[Albion]

There is a formal process of glorification in the Orthodox Church which is distinct from the RC process. I am not going to argue about the relative merits of these, or the Anglican low church view which limits saints to various Biblical figures.

Not that it's a big point, but there's no particular divide on this matter between High Church and Low Church Anglicans. There is, however, between "Anglo-Catholics" or "Anglo-Papalists" and Evangelical Anglicans.

 

[.Mikha'el.]

ON!

Thread moved from Christian Advice to Denomination-Specific Theology!

OFF!

 

[The Portuguese Baptist]

Says who?

Says:

• The Bible itself (2 Timothy 3:16 and 2 Peter 1:21 — the Bible is God-breathed);
• Logic: if God is not a liar (Proverbs 30:5), then he cannot contradict himself, which means that the Bible and the Catholic or Orthodox Churches cannot both be correct;
• History: rejection of that principle has countless times in the past led to dozens of false doctrines, many of which remain to this day.

Someone die and leave you in charge?

Er... No, not really. Why should you ask that? That is what I ask you: did someone die and leave your church in charge?

Can you show Scripture that says that, otherwise it's just your opinion.

Psalms 12:6, Psalms 19:7, Proverbs 30:5, 2 Timothy 2:15, 2 Timothy 3:16 and 2 Peter 1:21.

If it wasn't for Holy Tradition there would be no Bible.

Yes, there would, because the Bible did not come from ‘Holy Tradition’ (besides, that concept doesn't even exist); rather, it came from a group of Christian men who gathered to piece together the Jewish writings with the books that accurately portrayed the life of Jesus and echoed his teachings.

Christ did not leave a book He left a Church.

Actually, he left both. And guess which one he said was infallible!

The bible says the Church is the pillar and foundation of the Truth.

Where?

False. Holy Tradition refers to the Church being led by the Holy Spirit. The church leaders gathering in the Ecumenical Councils were guided by the Holy Spirit.

Where does it say that?

 

[seashale76]

Where?
Where does it say that?

1 Timothy 3:15 tells us that pillar and foundation of the truth is the Church. Also, the very first ecumenical council of the Church is recorded in the book of Acts. In said book, we are directly told that decisions made that affect the Church were done so as they 'seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us'. That's how it works and you can even see the process laid out for you in the scriptures.

 

[topcare]

Says:

• The Bible itself (2 Timothy 3:16 and 2 Peter 1:21 — the Bible is God-breathed);
• Logic: if God is not a liar (Proverbs 30:5), then he cannot contradict himself, which means that the Bible and the Catholic or Orthodox Churches cannot both be correct;
• History: rejection of that principle has countless times in the past led to dozens of false doctrines, many of which remain to this day.

Er... No, not really. Why should you ask that? That is what I ask you: did someone die and leave your church in charge?



Psalms 12:6, Psalms 19:7, Proverbs 30:5, 2 Timothy 2:15, 2 Timothy 3:16 and 2 Peter 1:21.



Yes, there would, because the Bible did not come from ‘Holy Tradition’ (besides, that concept doesn't even exist); rather, it came from a group of Christian men who gathered to piece together the Jewish writings with the books that accurately portrayed the life of Jesus and echoed his teachings.



Actually, he left both. And guess which one he said was infallible!



Where?



Where does it say that?

See your biggest problem the Bible never says what you say of it. You must put that idea into it and Christ never left a book

 

[The Portuguese Baptist]

1 Timothy 3:15 tells us that pillar and foundation of the truth is the Church. Also, the very first ecumenical council of the Church is recorded in the book of Acts. In said book, we are directly told that decisions made that affect the Church were done so as they 'seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us'. That's how it works and you can even see the process laid out for you in the scriptures.

OK. So, I've got two questions for you: 1) What happens if the members of the Church contradict themselves? And: 2) What happens if the Church contradicts the Bible?

See your biggest problem the Bible never says what you say of it. You must put that idea into it and Christ never left a book

The Bible also never says that the Church is infallible. And logic tells us that two contradictory things cannot both be correct. So, whom are you going to believe in? The Bible, inspired by God (who does not lie), infallible, unchanging and eternal — or Catholic/Orthodox tradition, which was created by fallible men and has been changed countless times over the centuries?

 

[Albion]

1 Timothy 3:15 tells us that pillar and foundation of the truth is the Church.

But the meaning (and the wording itself in many translations) makes it clear that "church" refers to the people of God, the household of God. That's the "Church" in the highest sense. It doesn't refer, in that verse, to any institution or corporation, which is the interpretation that RCs and EOs want to place upon it.

 

[topcare]

The Bible also never says that the Church is infallible. And logic tells us that two contradictory things cannot both be correct. So, whom are you going to believe in? The Bible, inspired by God (who does not lie), infallible, unchanging and eternal — or Catholic/Orthodox tradition, which was created by fallible men and has been changed countless times over the centuries?

As was shown you the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth not the Bible. You have placed dead man's tradition upon the Bible as the pharisees did so long ago

 

[The Portuguese Baptist]

As was shown you the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth not the Bible.

And, as was shown you (by Albion), the ‘church’ mentioned in that verse refers to all Christians, that is, the people of God — not the Roman Catholic Church, nor the Eastern Orthodox Church.

You have placed dead man's tradition upon the Bible as the pharisees did so long ago

No. YOU have placed dead men's tradition over the Bible, as the Pharisees did so long ago. I follow the Bible solely; you follow the Bible and the traditions of dead men.

 

[topcare]

And, as was shown you (by Albion), the ‘church’ mentioned in that verse refers to all Christians, that is, the people of God — not the Roman Catholic Church, nor the Eastern Orthodox Church.

I got him on ignore and no I do not believe it speaks of just some mystical church but a real Church

No. YOU have placed dead men's tradition over the Bible, as the Pharisees did so long ago. I follow the Bible solely; you follow the Bible and the traditions of dead men.

No I have not. You have because nothing in the Bible says to do what you have, there is much more to Christianity than the Bible but that doesn't fit your agenda so you lot use the Bible to make up anything you want to and than act better because you follow something not even in the Bible!

 

[prodromos]

In Orthodoxy, there are people considered to be saints only because they were popular with the people.

Perhaps you might consider asking yourself why certain saints were popular with the people?

I recently visited the church of St Demetrios in Thessaloniki, Greece and have received a small piece of cotton wool soaked in the myrrh which streams from his relics and has done so continuously for centuries. I have personally seen someone healed by the same myrrh. There are numerous accounts of St Demetrios personally coming to the aid of the people of Thessaloniki over the centuries. We also received some myrrh from his relics 15 years ago and it still smells as strongly as it did when we first received it.

When St Nektarios died in hospital, as the nurses began to undress him to prepare his body, they threw his cardigan onto the adjacent bed where a man whose legs were crippled lay. He was immediately healed and jumped out of his hospital bed praising God. Later, the same room began to smell so strongly of myrrh that they could no longer leave patients there, and it has since been converted into a chapel. St Nektarios' body did not decay for 20 years after his burial and in fact his hair and fingernails continued to grow. Since his death there have been innumerable miracles occur through his intercessions.

Both Saint Porphyrios and St Paisios who were recently canonised performed many miracles while they were alive because of their great love for God and for their fellow man, but since their deaths the miracles which occur through their intercessions have multiplied greatly.

St Spyridon is know as the travelling saint because he has appeared to different people all over the world bringing about their healing through his prayers. On his feast day at the church where his incorrupt relics are held, one of the last things done is to replace his footwear because the soles have become worn out. This is done every year.

 

[Albion]

I got him on ignore and no I do not believe it speaks of just some mystical church but a real Church

You obviously believe what you want to believe. No one can stop that, but at least you have more than one person willing to give you the straight facts.

No I have not. You have because nothing in the Bible says to do what you have, there is much more to Christianity than the Bible

"Much more to Christianity" is not the issue. How to determine essential doctrine is. It's either God's word or Man's. Which of these, would you say, is the more likely to be correct?

 

[Albion]

Perhaps you might consider asking yourself why certain saints were popular with the people?

I'm not saying that they did not do much that would bring admiration from those around them. So, no, I don't need to ask myself that question.

But that wasn't the issue. Merely because there is a popular feeling about a person who has passed away does not mean that he is among the saved. We just do not have anyway of knowing everything about anyone, nor are we the ones who will judge. Nevertheless, prayers are directed to these people.

 

[prodromos]

I'm not saying that they did not do much that would bring admiration from those around them. So, no, I don't need to ask myself that question.

But that wasn't the issue. Merely because there is a popular feeling about a person who has passed away does not mean that he is among the saved. We just do not have anyway of knowing everything about anyone, nor are we the ones who will judge. Nevertheless, prayers are directed to these people.

Prayers are directed to these people because the prayers of these people are powerful and effective, not because of popular feeling.

 

[BrRichSFO]

We are NOT, BY ANY MEANS, supposed to pray to ANYONE BESIDES THE LORD OUR GOD! The Bible NEVER EVEN HINTS at such a horrible thing. In fact, I am convinced that praying to saints can really be regarded as offensive towards God, because: 1) it places God at the same level as saints; and 2) it implies that we find God insufficient for us.

Such an idea of praying to saints is absolutely contrary to the Bible:

• 1 Timothy 2:5 says: ‘For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus.’ If there is one mediator, then there is no other mediator. No saint in Heaven will intercede for us.
• Jesus is our High Priest (Hebrews 4:14), who intercedes for us (Hebrews 7:25), and who is holy and ‘set apart from sinners, exalted above the Heavens’ (Hebrews 7:26). With Jesus as our High Priest and Only Mediator, we need no-one else.
• The Bible gives no indication that the saints can even hear us from Heaven. Only God is omniscient (1 John 3:20).
• Finally, the Bible nowhere gives examples of prayers to saints, and neither does it ever command or suggest it.

"We are NOT, BY ANY MEANS, supposed to pray to ANYONE BESIDES THE LORD OUR GOD! The Bible NEVER EVEN HINTS at such a horrible thing."


Really why does your bible not have Romans 15:30? Or Ephesians 6:18-19?
The Saints are our brothers and sisters in faith living with God in heaven!

 

[Albion]

With those passages, it's quite apparent that nothing is being said about, no reference is being made to, people who have passed from this life to the spirit world.

 

[BrRichSFO]

With those passages, it's quite apparent that nothing is being said about, no reference is being made to, people who have passed from this life to the spirit world.

Only if you accept that somehow physical death separates us from one another totally, not just physically. In other words you don't accept the doctrine of the Mystical body of Christ. I accept that my mother is still my mother even though she is no longer physically here on earth, and that all those who have died and are with God are still my brothers and sisters in Christ, even though not physically here.

 

[Albion]

Only if you accept that somehow physical death separates us from one another totally, not just physically.

That's a well-traveled line, but it's not correct.

Those who have died are not the beings referred to in those verses and we all know that there is a difference between being a human in the flesh, in this life, as opposed to having passed into the afterlife. It also has nothing to do with the communion of saints.

As true as that concept is, it doesn't mean that everyone is identical to everyone else in every way (if there were, no one would speak of the church militant, the church triumphant, etc. as distinct from each other), just that there is a certain connection.

Your argument would work just as well if you were attempting to say that a human is no different from a cocker spaniel. "Both are alive, aren't they?" "They have feelings, too!" and so on.