Question 4 Catholics: What is going on in side the RCC with the Pope.

[Ivan Hlavanda]

But where Eve falls into sin, Mary, the New Eve, resists sin.

Luke 1 47 and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,
If she was without sin, she wouls not need a Savior.

As an ordinary part of the human race, born into the world the ordinary way, Mary was not without sin. Romans 3:23 teaches that all have sinned and fall short of God’s glory, and there is nothing in the Bible to suggest that Mary was an exception to this rule. The apostle John wrote, “If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us” (1 John 1:8–10). The “we” in this passage includes Mary, the mother of Jesus. To claim Mary is without sin is an example of “deceit.”

 

[Valletta]

Luke 1 47 and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,
If she was without sin, she wouls not need a Savior.

As an ordinary part of the human race, born into the world the ordinary way, Mary was not without sin. Romans 3:23 teaches that all have sinned and fall short of God’s glory, and there is nothing in the Bible to suggest that Mary was an exception to this rule. The apostle John wrote, “If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us” (1 John 1:8–10). The “we” in this passage includes Mary, the mother of Jesus. To claim Mary is without sin is an example of “deceit.”

False. Mary needed a savior. Mary is never mentioned in Romans 3:23. Your interpretation, that every human must have sinned and that this is meant to be about Mary is incorrect. You should pray upon such statements asking the Holy Spirit for discernment, especially before judging others and calling others deceitful. "All" either means every individual or it does not. In fact, Jesus never sinned. Babies have never sinned. There are humans with severe mental retardation who have never sinned. So it is a general way of speaking. I think you might realize your mistake with another usage of the word "all."

Matthew 3 4-6 4 Now John wore a garment of camel’s hair, and a leather girdle around his waist; and his food was locusts and wild honey. 5 Then went out to him Jerusalem and all Judea and all the region about the Jordan, 6 and they were baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.[b] RSVCE

Is the Word of God telling us that every individual in Judea, that is, every Roman soldier, every woman in the middle of child bearing, every person on their deathbed, every pagan, every day old infant, every person with a high fever, went to be baptized in the Jordan? Is that what God is conveying to us all?

That Mary never sinned was known long ago:
“[Jesus] became man by the Virgin so that the course which was taken by disobedience in the beginning through the agency of the serpent might be also the very course by which it would be put down. Eve, a virgin and undefiled, conceived the word of the serpent and bore disobedience and death. But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy when the angel Gabriel announced to her the glad tidings that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her and the power of the Most High would overshadow her, for which reason the Holy One being born of her is the Son of God. And she replied ‘Be it done unto me according to your word’ [Luke 1:38]” Justin Martyr (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 100 [A.D. 155]).

 

[Adventist Dissident]

It's a totally false charge that the Catholic Church changed the commandments. It also is a typical anti-Catholic tactic to start from a false position about Catholics and argue from there, such as your false positions that Catholic Church believes "it's acceptable to pray to idols." Fortunately the Church puts out a Catechism. I'd be glad to discuss any real Catholic teaching, one at a time, an actual quote from the Catechism such as "

Idolatry
2112 The first commandment condemns polytheism. It requires man neither to believe in, nor to venerate, other divinities than the one true God. Scripture constantly recalls this rejection of "idols, [of] silver and gold, the work of men's hands. They have mouths, but do not speak; eyes, but do not see." These empty idols make their worshippers empty: "Those who make them are like them; so are all who trust in them."42 God, however, is the "living God"43 who gives life and intervenes in history.
2113 Idolatry not only refers to false pagan worship. It remains a constant temptation to faith. Idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God. Man commits idolatry whenever he honors and reveres a creature in place of God, whether this be gods or demons (for example, satanism), power, pleasure, race, ancestors, the state, money, etc. Jesus says, "You cannot serve God and mammon."44 Many martyrs died for not adoring "the Beast"45 refusing even to simulate such worship. Idolatry rejects the unique Lordship of God; it is therefore incompatible with communion with God.46
2114 Human life finds its unity in the adoration of the one God. The commandment to worship the Lord alone integrates man and saves him from an endless disintegration. Idolatry is a perversion of man's innate religious sense. An idolater is someone who "transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God."47

Catechism of the Catholic Church - PART 3 SECTION 2 CHAPTER 1 ARTICLE 1

i have seen it done at the catholic church. I have seen it done in Mexico and in the US. I can walk into almost any RCC church and see a statue of Mary and people praying to her.
Second, the RCC did change the commandment in the Catholic Bible. I've Read it.

Third, Catholics pray to the saints. I watched them do it.

 

[Valletta]

i have seen it done at the catholic church. I have seen it done in Mexico and in the US. I can walk into almost any RCC church and see a statue of Mary and people praying to her.
Second, the RCC did change the commandment in the Catholic Bible. I've Read it.

Third, Catholics pray to the saints. I watched them do it.

I see you again avoided the Catholic Catechism. Let's talk commandments first. Which commandment do you allege Catholics have changed? When do you allege Catholics changed it? How do you know your religion's version is the correct version? Would you please post what you think are the correct commandments?

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

Mary needed a savior.

You said it your self, she needed a Savior because she was a sinner.

Mary is never mentioned in Romans 3:23. Your interpretation, that every human must have sinned and that this is meant to be about Mary is incorrect. You should pray upon such statements asking the Holy Spirit for discernment, especially before judging others and calling others deceitful. "All" either means every individual or it does not. In fact, Jesus never sinned. Babies have never sinned. There are humans with severe mental retardation who have never sinned. So it is a general way of speaking. I think you might realize your mistake with another usage of the word "all."

The statement in Romans 3:23 here is short and to the point: Everyone sins. Everyone has sinned. There is no one who does not sin (Romans 3:10). This further emphasizes the point Paul drew from Old Testament Scriptures earlier in this chapter. There is no escape from this label. Paul does not offer any category besides "sinner," and everyone falls into it. The previous verse emphasized that there is "no distinction." The most moral of humans—relatively speaking—and the most perverse of humans are all in the same container: "sinner."

Worse, knowing the difference between right and wrong, even the law given by God, doesn't make us moral. The Greek word translated as "fall short" here is in the present tense. In reality, we keep on falling short. In other words, even knowing the consequences of our sinfulness is not enough to keep us from sinning (Romans 1:18–20).

Because none of us are sinless, all of us fall short of God's glory. That matters, because we cannot be saved from God's angry judgment against our sin except by being sinless. That is God's standard, and we all fall short of His "glory" because of our sin. God's glory, or the glory of Himself and His kingdom, is what He shares with those who are in His family, His children. Our sin, though, keeps us from sharing in His glory.

Paul then continues in Romans 5 12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned

All people inherited sin from Adam and Eve, specifically from Adam. Sin is described in the Bible as transgression of the law of God (1 John 3:4) and rebellion against God .Genesis 3 describes Adam and Eve’s rebellion against God and His command. Because of Adam and Eve’s disobedience, sin has been an “inheritance” for all of their descendants. Romans 5:12 tells us that, through Adam, sin entered the world and so death was passed on to all men because all have sinned. This passed-on sin is known as inherited sin. Just as we inherit physical characteristics from our parents, we inherit our sinful nature from Adam.

Adam and Eve were made in the image and likeness of God (Genesis 1:26-27; 9:6). However, we are also in the image and likeness of Adam (Genesis 5:3). When Adam fell into sin, the result was every one of his descendants also being “infected” with sin. David lamented this fact in one of his Psalms: “Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me” (Psalm 51:5). This does not mean that his mother bore him illegitimately; rather, his mother had inherited a sin nature from her parents, and they from their parents, and so on. David inherited sin from his parents, just as we all do. Even if we live the best life possible, we are still sinners as a result of inherited sin.

Being born sinners results in the fact that we all sin. Notice the progression in Romans 5:12: sin entered the world through Adam, death follows sin, death comes to all people, all people sin because they inherit sin from Adam. Because “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23), we need a perfect, sinless sacrifice to wash away our sin, something we are powerless to do on our own. Thankfully, Jesus Christ is the Savior from sin! Our sin has been crucified on the cross of Jesus, and now “in Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace” (Ephesians 1:7). God, in His infinite wisdom, has provided the remedy for the sin we inherit, and that remedy is available to everyone: “Therefore, my brothers, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you” (Acts 13:38).

So yeah, even babies need a Savior. Jesus was without sin because He is God, born of the Holy Spirit. Mary is not. What the Catholic church teaches about Mary is disgusting (actually that's not Mary, that's an idol. I would not be surprised if Mary will be the first one to condemn you all for worshipping her.

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

Here is an example from the OT of a man (to wit: Abraham) acting as a mediator between man (to wit: The inhabitants of Sodom) and God, such that the mediation influenced what God did:

Genesis 18:16-33​

Abraham Pleads for Sodom​

16 When the men got up to leave, they looked down toward Sodom, and Abraham walked along with them to see them on their way. 17 Then the Lord said, “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do? 18 Abraham will surely become a great and powerful nation, and all nations on earth will be blessed through him. 19 For I have chosen him, so that he will direct his children and his household after him to keep the way of the Lord by doing what is right and just, so that the Lord will bring about for Abraham what he has promised him.”
20 Then the Lord said, “The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous 21 that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know.”
22 The men turned away and went toward Sodom, but Abraham remained standing before the Lord. 23 Then Abraham approached him and said: “Will you sweep away the righteous with the wicked? 24 What if there are fifty righteous people in the city? Will you really sweep it away and not spare the place for the sake of the fifty righteous people in it? 25 Far be it from you to do such a thing—to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?”
26 The Lord said, “If I find fifty righteous people in the city of Sodom, I will spare the whole place for their sake.”
27 Then Abraham spoke up again: “Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the Lord, though I am nothing but dust and ashes, 28 what if the number of the righteous is five less than fifty? Will you destroy the whole city for lack of five people?”
“If I find forty-five there,” he said, “I will not destroy it.”
29 Once again he spoke to him, “What if only forty are found there?”
He said, “For the sake of forty, I will not do it.”
30 Then he said, “May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak. What if only thirty can be found there?”
He answered, “I will not do it if I find thirty there.”
31 Abraham said, “Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the Lord, what if only twenty can be found there?”
He said, “For the sake of twenty, I will not destroy it.”
32 Then he said, “May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak just once more. What if only ten can be found there?”
He answered, “For the sake of ten, I will not destroy it.”
33 When the Lord had finished speaking with Abraham, he left, and Abraham returned home."

The way of understanding this passage does not see the Lord as altering what He was planning to do. The fact that He agreed to spare the city if only ten righteous were to be found shows both His knowledge of all things as well as the specific nature of His plan. The Lord was determined to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah for their evil practices. He knew that there were not even ten righteous in the city. This is why He agreed with Abraham that He would spare the city if only ten were found. In the end, only four people left Sodom; Lot, his wife and their two daughters. Among other things, this shows that the destruction of these cites was justified; there were no righteous people dwelling there!

Consequently, this is not a case of God willingly consulting with humans to determine how He is going to work out His plan. Rather it is a case of the Lord knowing everything which will happen in the future. Thus, He agreed with Abraham that if a certain number of righteous were found He would not destroy the city. Yet, the Lord knew all along that this would never occur.

God is not a human that He gets influenced. God also does not change, nor is He ever surprised, as He is outside of time and knew, knows and will know everything.

 

[Valletta]

You said it your self, she needed a Savior because she was a sinner.


The statement in Romans 3:23 here is short and to the point: Everyone sins. Everyone has sinned. There is no one who does not sin (Romans 3:10). This further emphasizes the point Paul drew from Old Testament Scriptures earlier in this chapter. There is no escape from this label. Paul does not offer any category besides "sinner," and everyone falls into it. The previous verse emphasized that there is "no distinction." The most moral of humans—relatively speaking—and the most perverse of humans are all in the same container: "sinner."

Worse, knowing the difference between right and wrong, even the law given by God, doesn't make us moral. The Greek word translated as "fall short" here is in the present tense. In reality, we keep on falling short. In other words, even knowing the consequences of our sinfulness is not enough to keep us from sinning (Romans 1:18–20).

Because none of us are sinless, all of us fall short of God's glory. That matters, because we cannot be saved from God's angry judgment against our sin except by being sinless. That is God's standard, and we all fall short of His "glory" because of our sin. God's glory, or the glory of Himself and His kingdom, is what He shares with those who are in His family, His children. Our sin, though, keeps us from sharing in His glory.

Paul then continues in Romans 5 12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned

All people inherited sin from Adam and Eve, specifically from Adam. Sin is described in the Bible as transgression of the law of God (1 John 3:4) and rebellion against God .Genesis 3 describes Adam and Eve’s rebellion against God and His command. Because of Adam and Eve’s disobedience, sin has been an “inheritance” for all of their descendants. Romans 5:12 tells us that, through Adam, sin entered the world and so death was passed on to all men because all have sinned. This passed-on sin is known as inherited sin. Just as we inherit physical characteristics from our parents, we inherit our sinful nature from Adam.

Adam and Eve were made in the image and likeness of God (Genesis 1:26-27; 9:6). However, we are also in the image and likeness of Adam (Genesis 5:3). When Adam fell into sin, the result was every one of his descendants also being “infected” with sin. David lamented this fact in one of his Psalms: “Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me” (Psalm 51:5). This does not mean that his mother bore him illegitimately; rather, his mother had inherited a sin nature from her parents, and they from their parents, and so on. David inherited sin from his parents, just as we all do. Even if we live the best life possible, we are still sinners as a result of inherited sin.

Being born sinners results in the fact that we all sin. Notice the progression in Romans 5:12: sin entered the world through Adam, death follows sin, death comes to all people, all people sin because they inherit sin from Adam. Because “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23), we need a perfect, sinless sacrifice to wash away our sin, something we are powerless to do on our own. Thankfully, Jesus Christ is the Savior from sin! Our sin has been crucified on the cross of Jesus, and now “in Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace” (Ephesians 1:7). God, in His infinite wisdom, has provided the remedy for the sin we inherit, and that remedy is available to everyone: “Therefore, my brothers, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you” (Acts 13:38).

So yeah, even babies need a Savior. Jesus was without sin because He is God, born of the Holy Spirit. Mary is not. What the Catholic church teaches about Mary is disgusting (actually that's not Mary, that's an idol. I would not be surprised if Mary will be the first one to condemn you all for worshipping her.

You're wrong. Jesus never sinned. Also babies never sinned. What sins do you accuse a one day old infant of committing? Or for that matter Jesus?
So you don't know what commandment you think Catholics have changed? You said it was in a Bible. There are different Catholic Bibles, I myself use at least 3 or 4 different Catholic Bibles. Translations vary.

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

Jesus never sinned.

I never said Jesus sinned, I rather die a horrible death before such thought even enters my mind. Jesus was sinless, He is God, He is without sin, Mary is not.

Also babies never sinned. What sins do you accuse a one day old infant of committing?

We all have sinned in Adam, the whole humanity, the Bible is clear on that.

So you don't know what commandment you think Catholics have changed? You said it was in a Bible. There are different Catholic Bibles, I myself use at least 3 or 4 different Catholic Bibles. Translations vary.

You responded to the wrong person.

 

[Valletta]

I never said Jesus sinned, I rather die a horrible death before such thought even enters my mind. Jesus was sinless, He is God, He is without sin, Mary is not.


We all have sinned in Adam, the whole humanity, the Bible is clear on that.

You responded to the wrong person.

And you think "all of Judea" means all of the Romans and pagans and women in labor went out to be baptized? What sin do you think babies have committed? It says "sinned,' which is past tense. And what sins do you think babies are guilty of, after one day being alive? Or how about one second alive?

 

[Adventist Dissident]

I see you again avoided the Catholic Catechism. Let's talk commandments first. Which commandment do you allege Catholics have changed? When do you allege Catholics changed it? How do you know your religion's version is the correct version? Would you please post what you think are the correct commandments?

here is an example of what I am talking about....

DCAM > Catholic Faith > Church Teaching > The Ten Commandments

The Ten Commandments​

A Traditional Catechetical Formula

1. I am the LORD your God: you shall not have strange Gods before me.
2. You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.
3. Remember to keep holy the LORD'S Day.
4. Honor your father and your mother.
5. You shall not kill.
6. You shall not commit adultery.
7. You shall not steal.
8. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
9. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife.
10. You shall not covet your neighbor's goods.

Wikipedia Article about Ten Commandments notice the section on the Catholic church

Ten Commandments - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The Catechism of the Catholic Church, teaches its own version of the Ten Commandments[88] derived by eliminating the Second Commandment of the Holy Bible which specifically prohibits idolatry and splitting the Tenth commandment on covetousness to make its Ninth and Tenth commandments. Though the Second Commandment forbids Idolatry of all kinds including iconography, statues and veneration to them and to which God attaches a curse to the 3rd and 4th generations,[89] the Catechism of the Catholic Church cites the Ark of the Covenant as justification for veneration of iconography, statues and dead saints as being permitted[90] by the seventh ecumenical council at Nicaea (787) and because they also believe the shortening of the Second Commandment by combination of the verses is self-explanatory[91] to children and adults to whom Catechism is taught from a young age

The actual 10 commandments

1. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image.
3. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.
4. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
5. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.”
6. Honour thy father and thy mother.
7. Thou shalt not kill.
8. Thou shalt not commit adultery.
9. Thou shalt not steal.
10. Thou shalt not bear false witness.
11. Thou shalt not covet.

 

[Valletta]

here is an example of what I am talking about....

DCAM > Catholic Faith > Church Teaching > The Ten Commandments

The Ten Commandments​

A Traditional Catechetical Formula

1. I am the LORD your God: you shall not have strange Gods before me.
2. You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.
3. Remember to keep holy the LORD'S Day.
4. Honor your father and your mother.
5. You shall not kill.
6. You shall not commit adultery.
7. You shall not steal.
8. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
9. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife.
10. You shall not covet your neighbor's goods.

Wikipedia Article about Ten Commandments notice the section on the Catholic church

Ten Commandments - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The Catechism of the Catholic Church, teaches its own version of the Ten Commandments[88] derived by eliminating the Second Commandment of the Holy Bible which specifically prohibits idolatry and splitting the Tenth commandment on covetousness to make its Ninth and Tenth commandments. Though the Second Commandment forbids Idolatry of all kinds including iconography, statues and veneration to them and to which God attaches a curse to the 3rd and 4th generations,[89] the Catechism of the Catholic Church cites the Ark of the Covenant as justification for veneration of iconography, statues and dead saints as being permitted[90] by the seventh ecumenical council at Nicaea (787) and because they also believe the shortening of the Second Commandment by combination of the verses is self-explanatory[91] to children and adults to whom Catechism is taught from a young age

The actual 10 commandments

1. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image.
3. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.
4. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
5. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.”
6. Honour thy father and thy mother.
7. Thou shalt not kill.
8. Thou shalt not commit adultery.
9. Thou shalt not steal.
10. Thou shalt not bear false witness.
11. Thou shalt not covet.

As I've said so many times, Wikipedia is not a reliable source for anything where someone may offer disagreement. Any anti-Catholic can write what they want on Wikipedia and they can stay anonymous. The Wiki entry contains obvious lies., the Catholic Church did not eliminate the second commandment or eliminate the idolatry commandment.

First, the text of the Ten Commandments are in the Holy Bible, and Catholics consider the Bible the Word of God. The Catholic Church chose the 73 books of the Bible in a process that spanned centuries and was finalized in the late 300s. The text of the Ten Commandments is found in Exodus and Deuteronomy. Unfortunately all the Church had to go with was the text without punctuation. We did know there are ten commandments from the Bible, but did not know how to group them. In my opinion if we did not know there were ten most people would come up with a higher number, maybe even 14. Individuals have taken their best attempts on how to group the commandments, Catholics, and some Protestants, use the Catholic version that Saint Augustine came up with. Augustine died in 440 A.D.
Here is a traditional Catholic grouping:

Catechism of the Catholic Church

www.usccb.org

You can see we have all Ten Commandments and the idolatry portions are in the first. I am sure Satan would be pleased if East and West, Catholic and Protestant, all accused each of changing God's Commandments when they are only grouped differently by sincere people trying to follow God. The truth is that no one knows how the original Ten Commandments were grouped, and I know of no religion that eliminated any Commandment.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

As I've said so many times, Wikipedia is not a reliable source for anything where someone may offer disagreement.

I did not quote Wikipedia first I quoted an official Catholic site. so that isn't very ethical. here is the link again DCAM > Catholic Faith > Church Teaching > The Ten Commandments

Any anti-Catholic can write what they want on Wikipedia and they can stay anonymous. The Wiki entry contains obvious lies.,

you can deny it all you want, but your own sites says so.
1. catholic new agency The Ten Commandments

Catechism of the Catholic Church - IntraText

2066 The division and numbering of the Commandments have varied in the course of history. the present catechism follows the division of the Commandments established by St. Augustine, which has become traditional in the Catholic Church. It is also that of the Lutheran confessions. the Greek Fathers worked out a slightly different division, which is found in the Orthodox Churches and Reformed communities.

St. Augustine on How to Divide the Ten Commandments: Did Catholics “Change” the Ten Commandments?

Here’s a little something that I shouldn’t spend a lot of time on by way of introduction (I’m presently nearly at the honest-to-goodness final attack of my thesis) — but it is non…

lonelypilgrim.com

1. Rather than dividing “You shall have no other gods before me” and “You shall not make for yourself any graven image” into two separate commandments, as do the Reformed and Evangelicals, Augustine saw that “making for oneself an idol and bowing before it” (Exodus 20:4) was but an elaboration of having other gods before God, and grouped the two into one commandment. In Catholic catechetical formulae, the “graven images” part is often omitted — not because we are abridging Scripture, but because it is easier for kids to memorize that way, and the part about “graven images” is pretty much redundant. Augustine instead divided “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house” and “You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife” into two commandments.

the Catholic Church did not eliminate the second commandment or eliminate the idolatry commandment.

First, the text of the Ten Commandments are in the Holy Bible, and Catholics consider the Bible the Word of God. The Catholic Church chose the 73 books of the Bible in a process that spanned centuries and was finalized in the late 300s. The text of the Ten Commandments is found in Exodus and Deuteronomy. Unfortunately all the Church had to go with was the text without punctuation. We did know there are ten commandments from the Bible, but did not know how to group them. In my opinion if we did not know there were ten most people would come up with a higher number, maybe even 14. Individuals have taken their best attempts on how to group the commandments, Catholics, and some Protestants, use the Catholic version that Saint Augustine came up with. Augustine died in 440 A.D.
Here is a traditional Catholic grouping:

Catechism of the Catholic Church

www.usccb.org

You can see we have all Ten Commandments and the idolatry portions are in the first. I am sure Satan would be pleased if East and West, Catholic and Protestant, all accused each of changing God's Commandments when they are only grouped differently by sincere people trying to follow God. The truth is that no one knows how the original Ten Commandments were grouped, and I know of no religion that eliminated any Commandment.

 

[Buzzard3]

1. Do you believe it's acceptable to pray to idols In violations the commandments?
The RCC does.

Funny.

They changed the commandments to allow it to happen. In doing so they fulfill the prophecy of Daniel 7. "He thinks to change times and laws"

Sounds like you've been reading way too many anti-Catholic comic books.

Do you believe it's forbidden to marry in order to serve God and to have leadership in the church? The RCC does. This flies directly in the face of the apostles. 1st Timothy 3:2 -5

How does priestly celibacy fly in the face of Tim 3:2-5?

Do you believe in the doctrine of eternal torment? That God punishes people forever for sins on this Earth. That right now he's torturing people? The RCC does.

Whete does the RCC teach that God punishes and tortures sinners forever?

This flies directly in the face of what the scripture says about eternal life. Eternal life is granted only based upon accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior.

Nope. Salvation is not as simple as that. The doctrine of sola fide is unbiblical and false and was invented by a heretic who evidently couldn't read - Martin Luther.
"a man is justified by works and not by faith alone ... faith without works is dead" (James 2:24-26)

 

[Buzzard3]

Luke 1 47 and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,
If she was without sin, she wouls not need a Savior.

Did Mary believe she had the power to bestow on herself eternal life? Of course not - she believed only God could do that, hence she called God "My Saviour".

 

[Buzzard3]

Worse, knowing the difference between right and wrong, even the law given by God, doesn't make us moral. The Greek word translated as "fall short" here is in the present tense.

It makes me laugh every time I come across amateur Bible students pretending they're experts in ancient languages.

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

Nope. Salvation is not as simple as that. The doctrine of sola fide is unbiblical and false and was invented by a heretic who evidently couldn't read - Martin Luther.
"a man is justified by works and not by faith alone ... faith without works is dead" (James 2:24-26)

Habbabuk 2 4 “Behold, as for the proud one, His soul is not right within him;
But the righteous will live by his faith.

Romans 5 1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ

Romans 3 27 Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.

The word justified means “pronounced or treated as righteous.” For a Christian, justification is the act of God not only forgiving the believer’s sins but imputing to him the righteousness of Christ. The Bible states in several places that justification only comes through faith (e.g., Romans 5:1; Galatians 3:24). Justification is not earned through our own works; rather, we are covered by the righteousness of Jesus Christ (Ephesians 2:8; Titus 3:5). The Christian, being declared righteous, is thus freed from the guilt of sin.

Justification is a completed work of God, and it is instantaneous, as opposed to sanctification, which is an ongoing process of growth by which we become more Christlike (the act of “being saved,” cf. 1 Corinthians 1:18; 1 Thessalonians 5:23). Sanctification occurs after justification.

Now let's look at James 2 24-26
The works spoken of here, are an evidence of the faith the person has. Faith saves us, but the works are a by-product of our faith. When we stand before Jesus on judgment day, He will say to His own, well done, thy good and faithful servant. Servants serve.

To undertand more about what James wrote about, I reccommend RC Sproul

The sacrifice of the Lamb of God on the cross was perfect. He paid fully for all the sins of His elect, and reconciled us to God. Jesus done it all, and nothing more can be added. Or is His sacrifice not enough for you? What more do you want to add? Saying that salvation can be lost is the biggest insult to the perfect work of Christ.

 

[Buzzard3]

The way of understanding this passage does not see the Lord as altering what He was planning to do.

Yes, you're correct. I didn't choose my words correctly. The point is, God was willing to alter what he had planned to do, according to Abraham's suggestion that there may be ten good people in Sodom.

If Mary had not appealed to Jesus about the wine running out at the wedding at Cana, would Jesus have performed his miracle of changing water to wine?

 

[Adventist Dissident]

I don't think so.

I don't think so. Sounds like you've been reading too many anti-Catholic comic books.

How does priestly celibacy fly in the face of Tim 3:2-5?

Celibacy violates the goal of the church. The goal of the Church is to reflect the Lord properly. There are only 2 places where The Lord is fully and properly represented. the Garden of Eden and the Life of Christ. Paul's statement is a validation of the Garden and the Church being the place of restoration of the Garden of Eden. The husband and wife model was created by God in the Garden. Celibacy goes against that and it goes against the practice of the Apostles. Peter was married.

Whete does the RCC teach that God punishes and tortures sinners forever?

Catechism of the Catholic Church - IntraText

IV. Hell

1033 We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: "He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."610 Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren.611 To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God's merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called "hell."

1034 Jesus often speaks of "Gehenna" of "the unquenchable fire" reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost.612 Jesus solemnly proclaims that he "will send his angels, and they will gather . . . all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire,"613 and that he will pronounce the condemnation: "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!"614

1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."615 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

1036 The affirmations of Sacred Scripture and the teachings of the Church on the subject of hell are a call to the responsibility incumbent upon man to make use of his freedom in view of his eternal destiny. They are at the same time an urgent call to conversion: "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few."616

Since we know neither the day nor the hour, we should follow the advice of the Lord and watch constantly so that, when the single course of our earthly life is completed, we may merit to enter with him into the marriage feast and be numbered among the blessed, and not, like the wicked and slothful servants, be ordered to depart into the eternal fire, into the outer darkness where "men will weep and gnash their teeth."617

1037 God predestines no one to go to hell;618 for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want "any to perish, but all to come to repentance":619

Nope. Salvation is not as simple as that. The doctrine of sola fide is unbiblical and false and was invented by a heretic who evidently couldn't read - Martin Luther.
"a man is justified by works and not by faith alone ... faith without works is dead" (James 2:24-26)

you misunderstood the argument. it is not about faith and works. it is about eternal life being granted only by Christ, it is not automatic. when you die you do not live forever in hell, you only live forever if you accept Christ.

 

[Buzzard3]

Romans 3 27 Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.

it is referring to works alone, not faith and works.

The word justified means “pronounced or treated as righteous.” For a Christian, justification is the act of God not only forgiving the believer’s sins but imputing to him the righteousness of Christ. The Bible states in several places that justification only comes through faith (e.g., Romans 5:1; Galatians 3:24).

Nowhere does the NT say we are saved by faith alone.

Paul warns believers in Gal 5 and 1Cor 6 that their SINS can result in them ending up in hell - does that sounds like salvation thru faith alone?

Justification is not earned through our own works

No one is claiming that we can "earn" our justification thru works - that is impossible.
When James says "a man is justified by works and not by faith alone", by "works" he's referring to obeying God - being justified by obeying God is not the same as earning justification by obeying God.

We don't deserve salvation and it cannot be earned - not by faith and not by works. Salvation is a gift from God ... nevertheless, God has set in place certain conditions in order to receive that gift. James 2:24 concisely describes those conditions - faith and works (obedience). Rev 14:12 also concisely descibes those condition - the "saints" are described as "those who keep the commandments and the faith of Jesus" (see also Rev 22:17).

we are covered by the righteousness of Jesus Christ (Ephesians 2:8; Titus 3:5). The Christian, being declared righteous, is thus freed from the guilt of sin.

Yet 1John 2:4-6 says a believer who doesn't keep God's commandments doesn't "know" Christ, is a "liar" and "the truth in not in him".
Does that sound like someone who is "freed from the guilt of sin"?

Justification is a completed work of God, and it is instantaneous, as opposed to sanctification, which is an ongoing process of growth by which we become more Christlike (the act of “being saved,” cf. 1 Corinthians 1:18; 1 Thessalonians 5:23). Sanctification occurs after justification.

Sanctification is achieved by works, but what's the point of becoming thus sanctified if we are already saved thru faith?
In fact, if we're saved by faith alone, that means a believer can lead of life filled with the worst imaginable kinds of sin and evil and God will still grant him eternal life! The doctrine of salvation thru faith alone is not only unbiblical, it's patently absurd. Little wonder the Catholic Church condemned that doctrine as a heresy.

Now let's look at James 2 24-26
The works spoken of here, are an evidence of the faith the person has. Faith saves us, but the works are a by-product of our faith.

The word "justified" in James 2:24 means the same as "justified" in Romans 3:28 - declared righteous.
You can twist and distort James 2:24 any way you like, but there's no getting away from v.26 - "faith without works is dead". If you believe we're saved by faith alone, you believe we're saved by "dead" faith.

The sacrifice of the Lamb of God on the cross was perfect. He paid fully for all the sins of His elect, and reconciled us to God. Jesus done it all, and nothing more can be added.

If "Jesus done it all", everyone will be saved. No need for faith or baptism or loving God or obeying him. Even those who hate God will be saved.

Or is His sacrifice not enough for you? What more do you want to add? Saying that salvation can be lost is the biggest insult to the perfect work of Christ.

Salvation is gained after you die and are declared worthy of eternal life by Christ on Judgement Day. Thus gained, it can never be lost.

 

[Buzzard3]

Celibacy violates the goal of the church. The goal of the Church is to reflect the Lord properly. There are only 2 places where The Lord is fully and properly represented. the Garden of Eden and the Life of Christ. Paul's statement is a validation of the Garden and the Church being the place of restoration of the Garden of Eden ... Peter was married.

Where does the Bible says the Church cannot rule that clergyman take a vow of celibacy?

The husband and wife model was created by God in the Garden. Celibacy goes against that and it goes against the practice of the Apostles.

Oh dear ... in that case, Jesus went against God by not taking a wife.

Paul was celibate too; in fact Paul spoke highly of celibacy:

"It is well for a man not to touch a woman ...

To the unmarried and the widows I say that it is well for them to remain single as I do ...

The unmarried man is anxious about the affairs of the Lord, how to please the Lord; but the married man is anxious about worldly affairs, how to please his wife, and his interests are divided. And the unmarried woman or girl is anxious about the affairs of the Lord, how to be holy in body and spirit; but the married woman is anxious about worldly affairs, how to please her husband"
(1Cor 7)