Question 4 Catholics: What is going on in side the RCC with the Pope.

[Ivan Hlavanda]

You seem to have missed the point. It's not heresy to say someone is a mediator between man and man - Mary is a mediator between man (us) and Jesus, who is a man

Where in the scripture it says there is a mediator between man and Jesus? There is no mediator between man and Jesus. Jesus Himself dwells in believers; thus, none is required (Colossians 1:27).

Jesus is the perfect and sole Mediator between man and God because He is the sinless Son of God. Mary was not sinless. There is no Scripture whatsoever to back the claim of Mary’s sinlessness or of her assumption into heaven. This dogma was accepted as a result of papal proclamation. In the biblical narratives, Mary is pictured as a humble and submissive young woman, faithful to God, grasping the implications of what is about to happen to her, and uttering praises and doxologies (Luke 1:46–55). In fact, in her Magnificat, Mary says, “My spirit rejoices in God my Savior” (verse 47). The clear implication of Mary’s calling God her “Savior” is that she recognized her need of salvation. Just like the rest of us, Mary needed a Savior, a Redeemer.

Are you saying God doesn't listen to our prayers?

Just because God listens to our prayers, does not mean He can be influenced or that we can change His mind. God can change His mind but it won't be by anythinf we do or say. We don't pray to God to change His mind as He is perfect.

Where does the Catholic Church say "God needs softening"? ... or did you make that up?

I'm from Slovakia, where the population is largery Roman-Catholics, and they say these things. I just assumed it is what the Catholic church teaches.

Mary is also the "woman" described in Rev 12.

No, that's Israel.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus

Calling anyone else a mediator is a heresy. Mary had no influence on Jesus as God cannot be influenced. Also saying that we need to pray to Mary because she will soften Jesus' heart....yeah because God needs softening.

Yes she was the mother of Jesus, but He was still her God. Even in her womb He held her life together.

Praying to her and/or to other saints is sinful too. Prayers belong to God alone. Yes, it is true that we sometimes asked other to pray for us, but they are here physically on Earth. The dead cannot hear our prayers as only God is omniscient.



The New Testament makes it abundantly clear that Christ is both the foundation (Acts 4:11, 12; 1 Corinthians 3:11) and the head (Ephesians 5:23) of the church. It is a mistake to think that here He is giving either of those roles to Peter. There is a sense in which the apostles played a foundational role in the building of the church (Ephesians 2:20), but the role of primacy is reserved for Christ alone, not assigned to Peter. So, Jesus’ words here are best interpreted as a simple play on words in that a boulder-like truth came from the mouth of one who was called a small stone. And Christ Himself is called the “chief cornerstone” (1 Peter 2:6, 7). The chief cornerstone of any building was that upon which the building was anchored. If Christ declared Himself to be the cornerstone, how could Peter be the rock upon which the church was built? It is more likely that the believers, of which Peter is one, are the stones which make up the church, anchored upon the Cornerstone, “and he who believes on Him will by no means be put to shame” (1 Peter 2:6).




Peter nowhere claims supremacy over the other apostles. Nowhere in his writings (1 and 2 Peter) did the Apostle Peter claim any special role, authority, or power over the church. Nowhere in Scripture does Peter, or any other apostle, state that their apostolic authority would be passed on to successors. Yes, the Apostle Peter had a leadership role among the disciples. Yes, Peter played a crucial role in the early spread of the gospel (Acts chapters 1-10). Yes, Peter was the “rock” that Christ predicted he would be (Matthew 16:18). However, these truths about Peter in no way give support to the concept that Peter was the first pope, or that he was the “supreme leader” over the apostles, or that his authority would be passed on to the bishops of Rome. Peter himself points us all to the true Shepherd and Overseer of the church, the Lord Jesus Christ (1 Peter 2:25).

As a Protestant I have to disagree with you here. They got the goods on the origins. The problem is not with Peter being the 1st pope, or the holding the keys, or passing them down. Or with calling The Bishop's father, which is a very old testament thing to do. The problem is with the binding and loosing. They have bound and loosened incorrectly . They have added things and taken away things and therefore do not properly represent God.

 

[Valletta]

Yes, but the title 'Holy Father' belongs to God alone as God alone is Holy.



I don't need any websites, I see the heresies Catholic Church teaches.

You call Mary the mediator even the scripture says that Christ is the mediator alone.

You pray to dead even though praying belongs to God alone.

You worship idols, make images of Jesus even though nowhere it is written how He looked like. You kiss pictures of Him and say it is out of respect, but there is no pictutes of Jesus. It's like if I kissed a picture of another woman and say to my mother that's her even though it's someone else and then say 'look mum I'm kissing you' by kissing a picture of a stranger.

Sounds like you have a lot of time on your hands. A lot of the kissing, the reverence, has disappeared here in the U.S. but I believe the beautiful practice of kissing icons amongst Eastern Orthodox is still done. So you're a strict interpreter of the law. Do you denounce David and his men for eating consecrated bread? Icons and relics and statues and paintings are used to INSPIRE Catholics, to point us toward God. When the Christians first were allowed to build churches, they spent some ten to twenty years in deciding that the churches, as a house of God, would be ornate on the inside. Ornate to honor God, to inspire, to uplift the heart to God. Carvings on the inside were to inspire. The opposite would have been to put up images, of devils, of false Gods to worship. Those early Catholics, much closer to the age of Jesus and the Apostles, well understood the Word of God. It is your right to disagree with them. But what we Catholics try do do is follow God. You can ask, how would Jesus react? I asked about David, would Jesus condemn the Apostles for gathering food on the Sabbath? How about the woman who touched His cloak. Would Jesus accuse her of worshiping an idol, an inanimate object? Like the cloak, some of the items that we show reverence to are still preserved because those items are ASSOCIATED WITH GOD. For example, there are pieces of wood in some of the churches in Italy that were part of the cross of Jesus. Like the cloak, the wood is not worshiped as God, it is shown reverence because it is associated with God. I returned from church just a while ago this evening, where incense is burned. The incense is not worshipped, it represents our prayers: "Let my prayer come like incense before you; the lifting up of my hands, like the evening sacrifice" Psalm 141 The golden bowls of incense burned in Revelation too represent prayers. The incense is not a false idol.

 

[Buzzard3]

The problem is with the binding and loosing. They have bound and loosened incorrectly . They have added things and taken away things and therefore do not properly represent God.

In that case, who has bound and loosed correctly?

Jesus promised that the Holy Spirit would lead Christians into "all the truth

As a Protestant I have to disagree with you here. They got the goods on the origins. The problem is not with Peter being the 1st pope, or the holding the keys, or passing them down. Or with calling The Bishop's father, which is a very old testament thing to do. The problem is with the binding and loosing. They have bound and loosened incorrectly . They have added things and taken away things and therefore do not properly represent God.

If the holder of the "keys" hasn't bound and loosed correctly, that means Jesus lied in Matt 16:19 and that the Church has not prevailed "against the gates of hell".

If the Pope hasn't bound and loosed correctly, who has? Got any candidates?

Jesus promised that the Holy Spirit will guide Christians into "all the truth" (John 16:13). If not the holder of the "keys" (the Catholic Church), who has "all the truth"?

 

[Valletta]

No, that's Israel.

Often there is a second layer or meaning in Biblical text. While Mary is the primary meaning (Israel is not a woman, and certainly does not wear clothes. Mary is definitely the real mother of Jesus, but you could say Israel is too.) Israel can be construed as a secondary meaning.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

In that case, who has bound and loosed correctly?

Jesus promised that the Holy Spirit would lead Christians into "all the truth

If the holder of the "keys" hasn't bound and loosed correctly, that means Jesus lied in Matt 16:19 and that the Church has not prevailed "against the gates of hell".

If the Pope hasn't bound and loosed correctly, who has? Got any candidates?

Jesus promised that the Holy Spirit will guide Christians into "all the truth" (John 16:13). If not the holder of the "keys" (the Catholic Church), who has "all the truth"?

that is a lot of circular reasoning there.

 

[Buzzard3]

The pope is not of God. I'm not going to say what he is because I'll get banned

Don't worry, we Catholics have heard it all before: The Pope is the Antichrist ... or the false prophet ... or the harlot of Babylon ... blah, blah, blah. I'm sure you've got nothing original to say.

John Henry Newman was an Anglican priest and theologian (died in 1890) who was vehemently anti-Catholic and believed that the Pope was the Antichrist. He set about studying early Church history to prove that the Catholic Church is not what she claims to be - the original Church founded by Jesus and the Apostles. Well, as a result of his studies, Newman realised that he was wrong and the Catholic Church was right ... he consequently converted to Catholicism, became a Catholic priest and rose to the rank of Cardinal, which is only one rank below the Pope. He famously said, "To be deep in history is to cease being a Protestant."

 

[Buzzard3]

that is a lot of circular reasoning there.

In other words, you can't tell me who has bound and loosed correctly or who has "all the truth".

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

Don't worry, we Catholics have heard it all before: The Pope is the Antichrist ... or the false prophet ... or the harlot of Babylon ... blah, blah, blah. I'm sure you've got nothing original to say.

Actually I don't believe the pope is any of these things.

We all need a Saviour and I am not better than the pope, but I do not have good things to say about him. So I'll leave it at that.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

In other words, you can't tell me who has bound and loosed correctly or who has "all the truth".

no, I won't argue with someone who appears to have his mind made up already. Notice you did not ask "What do you think is bound incorrectly." It was side-stepped al together.

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

Often there is a second layer or meaning in Biblical text. While Mary is the primary meaning (Israel is not a woman, and certainly does not wear clothes. Mary is definitely the real mother of Jesus, but you could say Israel is too.) Israel can be construed as a secondary meaning.

In Revelation chapter 12, John sees a vision of a woman "clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars" (Revelation 12:1). Note the similarity between this description and the description that Joseph gave of his father Jacob (Israel) and his mother and their children in Genesis 37:9-11. The twelve stars refer to the twelve tribes of Israel. So the woman in Revelation 12 is Israel.

We are in the age of the Church, described in revelation chapters 2&3, where the 7 churches spiritually represent the church throughout the period.

And then, from chapter 4 starts the 7 years of tribulation, also know as Jacob's week of trouble.

Chapter 12 - the woman’s flight into the wilderness for 1,260 days refers to the future time called the Great Tribulation. Twelve hundred, sixty days is 42 months (of 30 days each), which is the same as 3 1/2 years. Halfway through the Tribulation period, the Beast (the Antichrist) will set an image of himself up in the temple that will be built in Jerusalem. This is the abomination that Jesus spoke of in Matthew 24:15 and Mark 13:14. When the Beast does this, he breaks the peace pact he had made with Israel, and the nation has to flee for safety (also see Matthew 24; Daniel 9:27). This escape of the Jews is pictured as the woman fleeing into the wilderness.

Revelation 12:12-17 speaks of how the devil will make war against Israel, trying to destroy her (Satan knows his time is short, relatively speaking—see Revelation 20:1-3, 10). It also reveals that God will protect Israel in the wilderness. Revelation 12:14 says Israel will be protected from the devil for "a time, times, and half a time (“a time” = 1 year; “times” = 2 years; “half a time” = one-half year; in other words, 3 1/2 years).

 

[Buzzard3]

Actually I don't believe the pope is any of these things.

We all need a Saviour and I am not better than the pope, but I do not have good things to say about him. So I'll leave it at that.

Did you know that aliens have been parking their UFOs under Vatican City for centuries? They fly around only at night in order that no one sees them ... the Pope knows all about it. Hey, maybe the Pope is actually an alien disguised as a human.

 

[Buzzard3]

no, I won't argue with someone who appears to have his mind made up already.

Okay, I'll take that as a "Don't know". I've been asking non-Catholic Christians for years who has "all the truth" (John 16:13), but haven't received a sensible answer yet.

Some of them say "All the truth is the Bible", which is kinda meaningless, coz for every (non-Catholic) reader of the Bible there is a different version of "all the truth" - hence the existence of 40,000 non-Catholic denominations, churches and sects. They can't even agree on something as fundamental as baptism!

Notice you did not ask "What do you think is bound incorrectly." It was side-stepped al together.

Why would I bother asking that? Do you have some novel disagreement with Catholic teaching that I haven't heard before? I doubt it.

 

[Buzzard3]

Just because God listens to our prayers, does not mean He can be influenced or that we can change His mind. God can change His mind but it won't be by anythinf we do or say. We don't pray to God to change His mind as He is perfect.

Here is an example from the OT of a man (to wit: Abraham) acting as a mediator between man (to wit: The inhabitants of Sodom) and God, such that the mediation influenced what God did:

Genesis 18:16-33​

Abraham Pleads for Sodom​

16 When the men got up to leave, they looked down toward Sodom, and Abraham walked along with them to see them on their way. 17 Then the Lord said, “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do? 18 Abraham will surely become a great and powerful nation, and all nations on earth will be blessed through him. 19 For I have chosen him, so that he will direct his children and his household after him to keep the way of the Lord by doing what is right and just, so that the Lord will bring about for Abraham what he has promised him.”
20 Then the Lord said, “The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous 21 that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know.”
22 The men turned away and went toward Sodom, but Abraham remained standing before the Lord. 23 Then Abraham approached him and said: “Will you sweep away the righteous with the wicked? 24 What if there are fifty righteous people in the city? Will you really sweep it away and not spare the place for the sake of the fifty righteous people in it? 25 Far be it from you to do such a thing—to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?”
26 The Lord said, “If I find fifty righteous people in the city of Sodom, I will spare the whole place for their sake.”
27 Then Abraham spoke up again: “Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the Lord, though I am nothing but dust and ashes, 28 what if the number of the righteous is five less than fifty? Will you destroy the whole city for lack of five people?”
“If I find forty-five there,” he said, “I will not destroy it.”
29 Once again he spoke to him, “What if only forty are found there?”
He said, “For the sake of forty, I will not do it.”
30 Then he said, “May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak. What if only thirty can be found there?”
He answered, “I will not do it if I find thirty there.”
31 Abraham said, “Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the Lord, what if only twenty can be found there?”
He said, “For the sake of twenty, I will not destroy it.”
32 Then he said, “May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak just once more. What if only ten can be found there?”
He answered, “For the sake of ten, I will not destroy it.”
33 When the Lord had finished speaking with Abraham, he left, and Abraham returned home."

 

[Buzzard3]

Where in the scripture it says there is a mediator between man and Jesus? ...

Just because God listens to our prayers, does not mean He can be influenced or that we can change His mind. God can change His mind but it won't be by anythinf we do or say. We don't pray to God to change His mind as He is perfect.

Here is the apostles mediating on behalf of the crowd to Jesus, which resulted in Jesus performing the miracle of feeding the 5000:

"As evening approached, the disciples came to him and said, “This is a remote place, and it’s already getting late. Send the crowds away, so they can go to the villages and buy themselves some food.” (Matt 14:15)



Here is Mary acting as mediator between Jesus and the wedding guests at Cana, which resulted in the first recorded miracle performed by Jesus - it was Mary's intercession that prompted Jesus to act:

"On the third day there was a marriage at Cana in Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there; Jesus also was invited to the marriage, with his disciples. When the wine failed, the mother of Jesus said to him, “They have no wine.” And Jesus said to her, “O woman, what have you to do with me? My hour has not yet come.” His mother said to the servants, “Do whatever he tells you.” Now six stone jars were standing there, for the Jewish rites of purification, each holding twenty or thirty gallons. Jesus said to them, “Fill the jars with water.” And they filled them up to the brim. He said to them, “Now draw some out, and take it to the steward of the feast.” So they took it. When the steward of the feast tasted the water now become wine ..." (John 2:1-9)

 

[Adventist Dissident]

Okay, I'll take that as a "Don't know". I've been asking non-Catholic Christians for years who has "all the truth" (John 16:13), but haven't received a sensible answer yet.

Some of them say "All the truth is the Bible", which is kinda meaningless, coz for every (non-Catholic) reader of the Bible there is a different version of "all the truth" - hence the existence of 40,000 non-Catholic denominations, churches and sects.

Why would I bother asking that? Do you have some novel disagreement with Catholic teaching that I haven't heard be

This confirms why I won't argue. When the mind is made up it does not matter what the truth is.

 

[Buzzard3]

This confirms why I won't argue. When the mind is made up it does not matter what the truth is.

Where does one find "all the truth" (John 16:13)? It's a simple question.

If you don't know where "all the truth" is found, just say, "I don't know where 'all the truth' is found."

I believe "all the truth" is found in the teachings of the Catholic Church. What church do you belong to? Do you believe it teaches "all the truth"?

 

[Adventist Dissident]

Where does one find "all the truth" (John 16:13)? It's a simple question.

If you don't know where "all the truth" is found, just say, "I don't know where 'all the truth' is found."

I believe "all the truth" is found in the teachings of the Catholic Church. What church do you belong to? Do you believe it teaches "all the truth"?

1. Do you believe it's acceptable to pray to idols In violations the commandments? The RCC does. They changed the commandments to allow it to happen. In doing so they fulfill the prophecy of Daniel 7. "He thinks to change times and laws"

2. Do you believe it's forbidden to marry in order to serve God and to have leadership in the church? The RCC does. This flies directly in the face of the apostles. 1st Timothy 3:2 -5

3. Do you believe in the doctrine of eternal torment? That God punishes people forever for sins on this Earth. That right now he's torturing people? The RCC does. This flies directly in the face of what the scripture says about eternal life. Eternal life is granted only based upon accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior. John 3:16. This is the living know that they shall die the dead know not anything.

4. Do you believe that Mary is co- Redeemer, with Christ. RCC does. Now this flies directly in the face of what the scripture says. "There is one intercessor between God and man"

That's just a start

 

[Valletta]

1. Do you believe it's acceptable to pray to idols In violations the commandments? The RCC does. They changed the commandments to allow it to happen. In doing so they fulfill the prophecy of Daniel 7. "He thinks to change times and laws"

It's a totally false charge that the Catholic Church changed the commandments. It also is a typical anti-Catholic tactic to start from a false position about Catholics and argue from there, such as your false positions that Catholic Church believes "it's acceptable to pray to idols." Fortunately the Church puts out a Catechism. I'd be glad to discuss any real Catholic teaching, one at a time, an actual quote from the Catechism such as "

Idolatry
2112 The first commandment condemns polytheism. It requires man neither to believe in, nor to venerate, other divinities than the one true God. Scripture constantly recalls this rejection of "idols, [of] silver and gold, the work of men's hands. They have mouths, but do not speak; eyes, but do not see." These empty idols make their worshippers empty: "Those who make them are like them; so are all who trust in them."42 God, however, is the "living God"43 who gives life and intervenes in history.
2113 Idolatry not only refers to false pagan worship. It remains a constant temptation to faith. Idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God. Man commits idolatry whenever he honors and reveres a creature in place of God, whether this be gods or demons (for example, satanism), power, pleasure, race, ancestors, the state, money, etc. Jesus says, "You cannot serve God and mammon."44 Many martyrs died for not adoring "the Beast"45 refusing even to simulate such worship. Idolatry rejects the unique Lordship of God; it is therefore incompatible with communion with God.46
2114 Human life finds its unity in the adoration of the one God. The commandment to worship the Lord alone integrates man and saves him from an endless disintegration. Idolatry is a perversion of man's innate religious sense. An idolater is someone who "transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God."47

Catechism of the Catholic Church - PART 3 SECTION 2 CHAPTER 1 ARTICLE 1

 

[Valletta]

In Revelation chapter 12, John sees a vision of a woman "clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars" (Revelation 12:1). Note the similarity between this description and the description that Joseph gave of his father Jacob (Israel) and his mother and their children in Genesis 37:9-11. The twelve stars refer to the twelve tribes of Israel. So the woman in Revelation 12 is Israel.

We are in the age of the Church, described in revelation chapters 2&3, where the 7 churches spiritually represent the church throughout the period.

And then, from chapter 4 starts the 7 years of tribulation, also know as Jacob's week of trouble.

Chapter 12 - the woman’s flight into the wilderness for 1,260 days refers to the future time called the Great Tribulation. Twelve hundred, sixty days is 42 months (of 30 days each), which is the same as 3 1/2 years. Halfway through the Tribulation period, the Beast (the Antichrist) will set an image of himself up in the temple that will be built in Jerusalem. This is the abomination that Jesus spoke of in Matthew 24:15 and Mark 13:14. When the Beast does this, he breaks the peace pact he had made with Israel, and the nation has to flee for safety (also see Matthew 24; Daniel 9:27). This escape of the Jews is pictured as the woman fleeing into the wilderness.

Revelation 12:12-17 speaks of how the devil will make war against Israel, trying to destroy her (Satan knows his time is short, relatively speaking—see Revelation 20:1-3, 10). It also reveals that God will protect Israel in the wilderness. Revelation 12:14 says Israel will be protected from the devil for "a time, times, and half a time (“a time” = 1 year; “times” = 2 years; “half a time” = one-half year; in other words, 3 1/2 years).

The son of the “woman” is “destined to rule all the nations with an iron rod.” This is Jesus. His mother is Mary. She is a woman, Israel is not. Israel certainly does not wear clothes as a woman does. Of course, there are twelve tribes of Israel, but the 12 Apostles are part of the “new Israel,” God’s everlasting kingdom. So the best match, the primary match, is Mary. In Revelation John builds up to the Ark of the Covenant and then there is this woman, Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant. She is referred to by Jesus as “woman” at the Wedding at Cana and while Jesus is on the cross, an allusion back to Genesis where Adam refers to Eve as “woman.” In Revelation the woman is attacked by the serpent, as in Genesis, attacked by evil. But where Eve falls into sin, Mary, the New Eve, resists sin.