Question 4 Catholics: What is going on in side the RCC with the Pope.

[Ivan Hlavanda]

Nowhere does the NT say we are saved by faith alone

Ephesians 2 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Paul warns believers in Gal 5 and 1Cor 6 that their SINS can result in them ending up in hell - does that sounds like salvation thru faith alone?

Verse?
Please go back to the cross of golgotha and thinkh about what happened there.

Do you really think you can add anything to the cross? Really? If salvation could be lost, we all would.

Let's stick to what Christ said. 6 John 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.

Lord Jesus said He will not lose one, how can then salvation be lost? Whoever teaches it can, calls Jesus a liar.

John 10 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

No one can snatch them out of Jesus.

As Paul said in Roman 8 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ?

So, no, salvation cannot be lost, and it does not depends on us, by Christ alone. Grace is unmetited, it does not depend your deeds.

Luke 23 39 One of the criminals who were hanged railed at him, saying, “Are you not the Christ? Save yourself and us!” 40 But the other rebuked him, saying, “Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” 42 And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” 43 And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

What deeds has the criminal done? None.

Salvation cannot be lost. Does that mean a saved person can do whatever they want? Absolutely not. Who loves God obeys His commandment, but we do not obey God to be saved, because there is nothing we can do, Christ done it all. We obey God bevause we love Him, but that is impossoble without the Holy Spirit.

It is written that we must overcome, but we overcome by the power of the Holy Spirit. The only reason we do not fall into the apostasy is because God is holding on to us. Do not depend on your self, but to God alone.

See, you have to worry rest of your life, if you have done enough, but I don't, because
Christ done it all for me on the cross.

faith without works is dead". If you believe we're saved by faith alone, you believe we're saved by "dead" faith.

James differentiates between saving faith and dead faith. The saving faith will show itself in works.

If "Jesus done it all", everyone will be saved.

Nowhere do I claim Jesus died for all, He died and paid for the sins of His elect, His people.

Yes and Jesus done it all. God send His only Son. God gave everything for us (the believers) on the cross, He gave Himself. But you say, that's not enough. Good luck with that before God.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

Where does the Bible says the Church cannot rule that clergyman take a vow of celibacy?

I Timothy 3, we have already discussed that. Where does the Bible say it is forbidden for an elder, bishop, pastor, and priest? The church has codified this error and said you must NOT marry or else God cannot use you and you cannot work in the Church.

Oh dear ... in that case, Jesus went against God by not taking a wife.

he had a special mission and he was the son of God. he is the savior of the world and came to redeem us not procreate. can you imagine what would happen if he had married? we would worship his children to this day. This is an exception. I see the Peter issue was sidestepped. that is ok. I guess not having the facts causes a problem for that argument.

Paul was celibate too;

Paul was married and then his wife left him because he became a Christian.

in fact Paul spoke highly of celibacy:

"It is well for a man not to touch a woman ...

To the unmarried and the widows I say that it is well for them to remain single as I do ...

speaking highly and recommending it, because he thinks the Lord is returning soon is different then making it law and forbidding the practice.

The unmarried man is anxious about the affairs of the Lord, how to please the Lord; but the married man is anxious about worldly affairs, how to please his wife, and his interests are divided. And the unmarried woman or girl is anxious about the affairs of the Lord, how to be holy in body and spirit; but the married woman is anxious about worldly affairs, how to please her husband"
(1Cor 7)

that is a recommendation not a command not a law.

 

[tall73]

I Timothy 3, we have already discussed that. Where does the Bible say it is forbidden for an elder, bishop, pastor, and priest? The church has codified this error and said you must NOT marry or else God cannot use you and you cannot work in the Church.

he had a special mission and he was the son of God. he is the savior of the world and came to redeem us not procreate. can you imagine what would happen if he had married? we would worship his children to this day. This is an exception. I see the Peter issue was sidestepped. that is ok. I guess not having the facts causes a problem for that argument.

Paul was married and then his wife left him because he became a Christian.

speaking highly and recommending it, because he thinks the Lord is returning soon is different then making it law and forbidding the practice.

that is a recommendation not a command not a law.

There are married Catholic priests in the eastern rite. The latin rite tradition of celibacy is not considered dogma or doctrine.

 

[Buzzard3]

Do you believe in the doctrine of eternal torment? That God punishes people forever for sins on this Earth.

The RCC reiterates what the Bible says - that hell is a place of eternal suffering:

"Then he will say to those at his left hand, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels ... And they will go away into eternal punishment" (Matt 25: 41-46).

"the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night for ever and ever." (Rev 20:10)

Jesus said, “If your hand is your difficulty, cut it off! Better for you to enter life maimed than to keep both hands and enter Gehenna with its unquenchable fire” (Mark 9:43).

"And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched." (Mark 9:47-48)

That right now he's torturing people? The RCC does.

The RCC doesn't teach that God tortures people in hell.

 

[Valletta]

There are married Catholic priests in the eastern rite. The latin rite tradition of celibacy is not considered dogma or doctrine.

There are married Catholic priests who came over to the Catholic Church from the Anglican Church.

 

[Buzzard3]

Nowhere do I claim Jesus died for all, He died and paid for the sins of His elect, His people.

Scripture says Jesus died not only for the elect, but for everyone who has ever lived or will ever live:

"we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and he is the expiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world." (1John 2:1-2)

"For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that he might bring us to God (1 Pet. 3:18)

"But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us." (Romans 5:8)

 

[Buzzard3]

He died and paid for the sins of His elect, His people.

What Scripture says Jesus "paid" for the sins of anyone?

And what does that mean ... that Jesus "paid for the sins of His elect"? Does it mean His elect can sin with impunity?

 

[Buzzard3]

Ephesians 2 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

"saved through faith" doesn't mean saved through faith alone - it simply means salvation begins with faith and without faith there is no grace and no salvation (without faith, we cannot please God - Heb 11:6).

"not a result of works" means we're not saved by works alone. It doesn't mean a believer's works are irrelevant to salvation ... otherwise, that would contradict James 2:24.

 

[Buzzard3]

So, no, salvation cannot be lost

No one is saved as soon as they first believe - that's a false doctrine, contradicted by many Scriptures.
For starters, if your salvation is already a certainty, why is salvation is described as a "hope" in at least twenty NT verses? The word "hope" implies uncertainty.

If a believer is saved as soon as he believes, why does Paul warn believers in Gal 5:19-21 and 1Cor 6:9-11 that their sins can result in ending up in hell?

If you are saved as soon as you believe, what happens if you lose your faith? Are you still saved? Of course not.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

The RCC reiterates what the Bible says - that hell is a place of eternal suffering:

bible says it is a place of permanate permanate unchanging punishment.

Strong's Greek: 166. αἰώνιος (aiónios) -- agelong, eternal

Definition: agelong, eternal
Usage: age-long, and therefore: practically eternal, unending; partaking of the character of that which lasts for an age, as contrasted with that which is brief and fleeting.

"Then he will say to those at his left hand, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels ... And they will go away into eternal punishment" (Matt 25: 41-46).

This is circular reasoning. The people who translated the bible were Catholic or influenced by Catholics. So they read into the Bible Catholic teaching.

"the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night for ever and ever." (Rev 20:10)

circular reasoning

Jesus said, “If your hand is your difficulty, cut it off! Better for you to enter life maimed than to keep both hands and enter Gehenna with its unquenchable fire” (Mark 9:43).

circular reasoning

"And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched." (Mark 9:47-48)

Eternal Strongs 166. is not about time it is about the permanent, unchanging nature of the age. temporary life vs. permanent death. or temporary death vs permanent death

Strong's Greek: 166. αἰώνιος (aiónios) -- agelong, eternal

Definition: agelong, eternal
Usage: age-long, and therefore: practically eternal, unending; partaking of the character of that which lasts for an age, as contrasted with that which is brief and fleeting.

The RCC doesn't teach that God tortures people in hell.

yes it does, they just say it in a nice way, they also teach that there is limbo and purgatory which, I am sure does not exist either.

 

[Buzzard3]

Yes and Jesus done it all. God send His only Son. God gave everything for us (the believers) on the cross, He gave Himself. But you say, that's not enough. Good luck with that before God.

I think perhaps you misunderstand the Cross. The Cross itself doesn't save anyone - rather, it makes salvation possible and opens the door to salvation. The Cross doesn't push anyone thru that door - each individual must make the choice to walk thru that door by accepting God's gift of salvation by being justified thru faith and obedience (James 2:24).

 

[Buzzard3]

What deeds has the criminal done? None.

The criminal publicly defended the innocence of Jesus and publicly acknowledged Jesus as his Saviour.

 

[Buzzard3]

Salvation cannot be lost. Does that mean a saved person can do whatever they want? Absolutely not.

Really? If a believer cannot lose his salvation, that means he can live a life filled with the most evil deeds imaginable and God will still save him! OSAS is a fool's paradise.

 

[Buzzard3]

James differentiates between saving faith and dead faith. The saving faith will show itself in works.

No, he doesn't say that; he doesn't say anything about "saving faith" - he says faith without obedience is as useless as no faith at all.

 

[Buzzard3]

The people who translated the bible were Catholic or influenced by Catholics. So they read into the Bible Catholic teaching.

Protestant Bibles come up with the same translation.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

Protestant Bibles come up with the same translation.

I noticed that there is no mention of the language and translation issues, there is an avoidance tactic. Why? I noticed there is NO attempt to address the issue, ignoring the fact that all Bibles are influenced by Catholic Teaching.

Answer me this. Why don't the Jews teach that there is an eternal burning hell? Since Christianity came out of Judaism, they should teach it too?

 

[Buzzard3]

all Bibles are influenced by Catholic Teaching.

It was the Catholic Church that decided the canon of the Bible - it's a Catholic publication.

Answer me this. Why don't the Jews teach that there is an eternal burning hell? Since Christianity came out of Judaism, they should teach it too?

The NT reveals much more than the OT. The Jews weren't aware of the Trinity, for example.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

It was the Catholic Church that decided the canon of the Bible - it's a Catholic publication.

ah, now we are seeing the problem. they own God's word so they can make it say whatever they want. Now you see the problem!!! Thank you for that.

The NT reveals much more than the OT. The Jews weren't aware of the Trinity, for example.

It is in the OT, in the rainbow RED, BLUE & YELLOW, and it is the creation of the earth, Air, Land & SEA, and in the Family, Mother & Father & Child.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

ah, now we are seeing the problem. they own God's word so they can make it say whatever they want. Now you see the problem!!! Thank you for that.

What NT do you have?

 

[Buzzard3]

ah, now we are seeing the problem. they own God's word so they can make it say whatever they want. Now you see the problem!!! Thank you for that.

Gee, if the Catholic Church is as evil as you say it is, I wonder why God entrusted it to deciding the canon of the Bible. God must be really stupid.

Why didn't God use the true Church (whoever that is) to decide the canon of the Bible?