Pyramids and the flood

[Job 33:6]

I'm not sure about angels fathering children. We have Hebrews quoting Psalm 104:

“And of the angels He says: "Who makes His angels spirits And His ministers a flame of fire."” (Heb 1:7 NKJV)

I'm not sure how this passage in Hebrews is related. But in essence, if you accept that Jude and Peter are citing Enoch, you should also know that Enoch, and the angels in Enoch, the ones that committed sexual immorality, are those of Genesis 6. That's what the story of Enoch is all about.

So it might be odd to agree that Jude and Peter are citing Enoch, in which they speak of angels sinning via sexual immorality, but then to turn in another direction by citing Hebrews to suggest that this isn't what they were doing.

Jude 1:6-7 ESV
[6] And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day— [7] just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

 

[Job 33:6]

I'm not sure about angels fathering children. We have Hebrews quoting Psalm 104:

“And of the angels He says: "Who makes His angels spirits And His ministers a flame of fire."” (Heb 1:7 NKJV)

I also made a post earlier, I'll just re-share it, that cites a variety of passages in which angels take on human form. Such as at soddom and Gomorrah or such as when Jacob wrestled with the angel of the Lord. So it is not as though angels do not have physical bodies, if that's what you mean, David. At least with respect to Genesis.

 

[Job 33:6]

Matthew 22:23-33 ESV
[23] The same day Sadducees came to him, who say that there is no resurrection, and they asked him a question, [24] saying, “Teacher, Moses said, ‘If a man dies having no children, his brother must marry the widow and raise up offspring for his brother.’ [25] Now there were seven brothers among us. The first married and died, and having no offspring left his wife to his brother. [26] So too the second and third, down to the seventh. [27] After them all, the woman died. [28] In the resurrection, therefore, of the seven, whose wife will she be? For they all had her.” [29] But Jesus answered them, “You are wrong, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God. [30] For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. [31] And as for the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was said to you by God: [32] ‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not God of the dead, but of the living.” [33] And when the crowd heard it, they were astonished at his teaching.

When we actually look at this passage, Jesus never says that angels cannot mate with women, only that they do not do so in an edenic afterlife following the resurrection.

As the scriptures say, they are like angels in heaven.

And yet here, in Genesis 6, we are not speaking of events in heaven, but rather events on earth. And we aren't speaking of what angels do in God's kingdom. Rather we are talking about rebellious angels.

2 Peter 2:4-6 ESV
[4] For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment; [5] if he did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a herald of righteousness, with seven others, when he brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly;

As Peter notes, God did not spare them, but cast them into hell for their transgressions. But Noah was preserved.

Jude 1:6-7 ESV
[6] And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day— [7] just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

For the left their proper dwelling, and just as sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, these angels indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire.

In fact, in the book of Genesis, angels do many human-like things. Jacob wrestled the angel of God, Genesis 32:24.

In Genesis 18:1-8 angels ate a meal together with Abraham.

In the story of Wisdom and Gomorrah, people want to mate with angels before they turn and destroy the city.

Genesis 19:4-5 NIV
[4] Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom—both young and old—surrounded the house. [5] They called to Lot, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them.”

Genesis 19:10, the angels grab Lot.

And so on and so forth.

In Genesis, it is not unusual for angels to physically interact with people. It's actually quite normal.

Additionally, in every instance of the Hebrew terms "sons of God" or bene Elohim, of the old testament, all instances are of angelic beings.

For example:
Job 1:6-7 NASB1995
[6] Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them. [7] The Lord said to Satan, “From where do you come?” Then Satan answered the Lord and said, “From roaming about on the earth and walking around on it.”

Here, the sons of God are among Yahwey in heaven, at a divine meeting of a sort.

Or here:
Job 38:4, 7 NASB1995
[4] Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding,
[7] When the morning stars sang together And all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Here the sons of God are described as being present during creation.

Psalm 82:1, 6-7 ESV
[1] God has taken his place in the divine council; in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:
[6] I said, “You are gods, sons of the Most High, all of you; [7] nevertheless, like men you shall die, and fall like any prince.”

Here they are referred to as sons of the Most High, sons of God. And they are of the divine council, being judged that they may die like men, despite being Divine beings.

And so in Genesis 6, when it speaks of sons of God going into the daughters of mankind, we know that it is indeed referring to angelic transgressors.

Genesis 6:2, 4 ESV
[2] the sons of God saw that the daughters of man were attractive. And they took as their wives any they chose.
[4] The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown.

Just like is said in Jude 1:6-8 and 2 Peter 2:4-6

You can see examples quoted here^ @David Lamb of angels interacting with people in Genesis. Eating meals, sitting under trees. Etc. though the angels are spirits, in Genesis, they interact with people oftentimes as though they themselves had human form and physically could interact with people, such as Jacob wrestling the angel of the Lord.

So it is not as though, being angels might prevent them from physical contact with people.

Genesis 18:1-8, 22, 24 ESV
[1] And the Lord appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, as he sat at the door of his tent in the heat of the day. [2] He lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing in front of him. When he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them and bowed himself to the earth [3] and said, “O Lord, if I have found favor in your sight, do not pass by your servant. [4] Let a little water be brought, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree, [5] while I bring a morsel of bread, that you may refresh yourselves, and after that you may pass on—since you have come to your servant.” So they said, “Do as you have said.” [6] And Abraham went quickly into the tent to Sarah and said, “Quick! Three seahs of fine flour! Knead it, and make cakes.” [7] And Abraham ran to the herd and took a calf, tender and good, and gave it to a young man, who prepared it quickly. [8] Then he took curds and milk and the calf that he had prepared, and set it before them. And he stood by them under the tree while they ate.
[22] So the men turned from there and went toward Sodom, but Abraham still stood before the Lord.
[24] Suppose there are fifty righteous within the city. Will you then sweep away the place and not spare it for the fifty righteous who are in it?

Angels would do things just as people would do, in Genesis.

 

[David Lamb]

I'm not sure how this passage in Hebrews is related. But in essence, if you accept that Jude and Peter are citing Enoch, you should also know that Enoch, and the angels in Enoch, the ones that committed sexual immorality, are those of Genesis 6. That's what the story of Enoch is all about.

So it might be odd to agree that Jude and Peter are citing Enoch, in which they speak of angels sinning via sexual immorality, but then to turn in another direction by citing Hebrews to suggest that this isn't what they were doing.

Jude 1:6-7 ESV
[6] And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day— [7] just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

That's why I said that I honestly don't know. 2 Peter 2:4 doesn't mention the details of how the angels sinned:

“For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast [them] down to hell and delivered [them] into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;” (2Pe 2:4 NKJV)

Jude might seem to:

“And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.” (Jude 1:6-7 NKJV)

But the commentaries I have looked at seem to suggest that Jude doesn't mean that the angels committed fornication. For instance, John Gill wrote:

"in like manner giving themselves over to fornication; not as the angels, who are not capable of sinning in such a manner; though the Jews make this to be a sin of theirs, and so interpret Ge 6:2,4 [{i }], but rather the Israelites, among whom this sin prevailed, 1Co 10:8; though it seems best of all to refer it to the false teachers that turned the grace of God into lasciviousness, and were very criminal this way;"

 

[Job 33:6]

That's why I said that I honestly don't know. 2 Peter 2:4 doesn't mention the details of how the angels sinned:

“For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast [them] down to hell and delivered [them] into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;” (2Pe 2:4 NKJV)

Jude might seem to:

“And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.” (Jude 1:6-7 NKJV)

Well yes. The angels in Enoch sinned in a variety of ways. Not limited to, transgressing their boundary/leaving their abode, and committing sins of sexual immorality.

But the commentaries I have looked at seem to suggest that Jude doesn't mean that the angels committed fornication. For instance, John Gill wrote:

"in like manner giving themselves over to fornication; not as the angels, who are not capable of sinning in such a manner; though the Jews make this to be a sin of theirs, and so interpret Ge 6:2,4 [{i }], but rather the Israelites, among whom this sin prevailed, 1Co 10:8; though it seems best of all to refer it to the false teachers that turned the grace of God into lasciviousness, and were very criminal this way;"

There are a variety of things worth considering here.

We might note for example that Peter refers to the angels being bound up in Tartarus. The place of imprisonment of the titans of Hesiod's Theogony. These are, giants. Entrapped in stone or rocks, under gloomy darkness.

This is the enochian tradition. In which the sons of God bore children with human women. And it's pretty explicit in Jude and Peter.

So it would be strange to believe that Peter and Jude would quote Enoch, and align their understanding with enochian tradition, but wouldn't recognize that the sins of the angels were not enochian.

It would be like Peter and Jude quoting Genesis but not believing that Adam and Eve ate of the fruit of the garden.

Additionally, the Greek terms used "which like them" in Jude, are masculine plural, that indulged in sexual immorality, which aligns with the gender and number of the angels.

The Jews of antiquity easily have this one correct in understanding. It is later Christians that are uncomfortable with the tradition that are simply trying to avoid what is plainly being spoken of. (Hence why people argue that Peter and Jude aren't talking about angels but rather are speaking of men).

Further, if we think about what Genesis says, just read it:

Genesis 6:1-2, 4 ESV
[1] When man began to multiply on the face of the land and daughters were born to them, [2] the sons of God saw that the daughters of man were attractive. And they took as their wives any they chose.
[4] The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown.

It's pretty clear that these passages describe sexual encounters.

In order to evade the obvious conclusion of sexual immorality, people would have to escape the reality that Peter and Jude are quoting Enoch. Which is hard to do because they verbatim reflect each other both textually and in the broader tradition.

 

[Platte]

The trouble is we can show many examples of evidence for sites more than 6,000 years old. Theres no doubt with this. Refer to previous evidence I have linked.

I’ve not seen and you have not posted any compelling evidence to the contrary. The Bible is clear that creation took 6 days and occurred approximately 6000 years ago. If you have compelling evidence to the contrary please provide. Thank you.

 

[stevevw]

I’ve not seen and you have not posted any compelling evidence to the contrary. The Bible is clear that creation took 6 days and occurred approximately 6000 years ago. If you have compelling evidence to the contrary please provide. Thank you.

Thats why I thought I would focus on human development in the last 20 or 30,000 years rather than the millions with the fossil records and geology.

We have the written and lived experiences of humans within the last 15,000 years. There is much more material to carbon date. We can also trace the gradual development of cultures with the archeology in the ground. Show that X period like the Egytian dynasties took 3,000 years, the Roman period around 500 years ect.

But we can also trace the period before this going back 1,000s of years. Before the dynastic Egytians were the pre dynastic period and before that going back to tribal kings. Before that going back to simple hunter gatherers. We have all the time periods in layers not millions of years but within 20 or 30,000 years.

Because we can show the dynastic period and the Roman period timeline are facts what your asking is that all the pre history that developed over and even longer time has to be crammed into a very short window thus not having enough to for these H&G, then cultures and tribes to develop.

Its like saying that simple H&G with flint tools came just before the dynastic Egyptians who have amazing works. The jump is unreal and doesn't allow for the real life evolution of human civilisation.

Here are some links I posted in a similar thread showing all the sites around the world that have been verified by carbon dating to around 3 to 10,000BCE years old. There are dozens. The ones dated at 3,000BCE didn't just pop into existence from nowhere. They also have a history going back.

Prehistoric Burials in Ancient Egypt Paleolithic Burials
Qadan burials dating to between 14,000 and 12,000 B.C. (late Paleolithic) have been excavated at Gebel Sahaba (near Wadi Halfa in Lower Nubia).
Prehistoric Burials in Ancient Egypt Paleolithic Burials | Ancient Egypt Online

Starting in the Predynastic era (before 3100 BCE) and continuing into later dynasties, the ancient Egyptians developed increasingly complex and effective methods for preserving and protecting the bodies of the dead. They first buried their dead in pit graves dug from the sand with the body placed on a mat, usually along with some items believed to help them in the afterlife. The first tomb structure the Egyptians developed was the mastaba, composed of earthen bricks made from soil along the Nile.

Mastaba - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Radiocarbon dating the first temples of mankind. Comments on 14C-Dates from Göbekli Tepe
The monument has been reliably dated to 9500-8500 BC using the radiocarbon method (Dietrich, 2011 , Dietrich & Schmidt, 2010.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/258182967_Radiocarbon_dating_the_first_temples_of_mankind_Comments_on_14C-Dates_from_Gobekli_Tepe#:~:text=The importance of the ancient,, Dietrich & Schmidt, 2010.

The Early Neolithic sites (10,000 BCE to 3,800 BCE)

The Early Neolithic sites (10,000 BCE to 3,800 BCE) used in our analysis. Sites shown with blue symbols have 14 C dates available, and those in red are archaeologically dated. Modern national borders are shown dashed. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0095714.g001
https://www.researchgate.net/figure...ed-in-our-analysis-Sites-shown_fig1_262147801

Even Jericho has a history going back some 10,000 years. What was Jericho was built upon and built upon and rebuilt upon before it was Jericho. This is the same for many ancient cities.

Jericho, A Living History, Ten Thousand Years of Civilization

Jericho, A Living History, Ten Thousand Years of Civilization

Jericho, Riha in Arabic, is located in the lower part of the Jordan Valley, ten kilometers west of the Jordan River and twelve kilometers north of the Dead Sea. At a depth of 250 meters below the sea level and a history dating back to the Neolithic

www.academia.edu

 

[Reneep]

Thanks for replying, but your post doesn't answer what I asked. My first question was: "Where in the bible to you find that when we die we start again in a new body?" (Incidentally, I'm not talking about our resurrected bodies at the Second Coming of Christ.)

My second question was: "Where in the bible are we told that the Queen of Sheba is a still beautiful woman, and about 6ft 2in tall, or that Adam and Eve are now 7ft or more tall?"

In both cases, I asked about bible teaching. The only bible passage you mentioned in your reply was Revelation 3, but there is nothing there about the reincarnation idea you were putting forward, or about the height of the Queen of Sheba, or of Adam and Eve. I know you said, "and those clothes in Rev three is having bodies to do his work in." However, there is nothing in Revelation 3 to suggest that the garments mentioned mean reincarnation:

“"He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.” (Re 3:5 NKJV)

You mention a Sukkah being next. What do you mean? Sukkah is the name given to the temporary booths Israelites live in during the Feast of Tabernacles.

Thanks for replying, but your post doesn't answer what I asked. My first question was: "Where in the bible to you find that when we die we start again in a new body?" (Incidentally, I'm not talking about our resurrected bodies at the Second Coming of Christ.)

My second question was: "Where in the bible are we told that the Queen of Sheba is a still beautiful woman, and about 6ft 2in tall, or that Adam and Eve are now 7ft or more tall?"

Can you answer these questions ? Why are the dead (?disembodied thus naked) ressurrected to life first ? MAYBE To get a body ? And the dead will rise first, right. What if that started two thousand years ago? But I have to say this I do not know if Shebah"s body contained Shebah soul ? What I can see is Shebah has a body waiting for her to go to. AND HOW CLOSE MIGHT WE BE TO EVENTS EVEN FEW CHRISTIANS REALLY BELIEVE ? HER BODY IS READY If her soul is not there already THAT IS FATHERS BUSINESS! Because Jesus isn't rapturing disembodied spirits INTO HEAVEN.. , he is rapturing body of meat SUITS that must contain Those incoming stars which is his spiritual body that ressurected his meat flesh too, thus changing us into what He is. Moses , Elijah and ALL THE REST ARE HERE, their bodies are here ? No one is going to "heaven" !! The living are going to FATHERS KINGDOM OR THE SONS KINGDOM IN THE RAPTURE AFTER A RESURRETION OF "THE DEAD" . TO A KINGDOM WERE ALL ARE LIVING FOREVER IN HIS KINGDOM. NOT AS DISEMBODIED SOULS. THAT IS SHAMEFUL AS JESUS OWN MEATSUITS PROVE HE SAVES OUR BODIES NOT JUST SOULS OR SPIRITS .

PAUL WAS SEEKING" A BETTER RESURECTION " WHICH RESSURECTION MIGHT THAT ONE BE? I NEVER COULD FIGURE OUT THAT QUESTION ? Well until the Lord started showing me my living ancestors. He is fleshing the bones . And that is how native American prophecy explains who " the son of Eve that crushes death " would be the one who could make it happen, and I seen him do it.

He crushed the serpents head He raises people from the dead , and fleshes bones of the mighty ones.. My great grandma, my grand mothers and Aliq Quippa herself is alive now. He fleshes bones of His faithful people ! Now that is why there was a priestess in the temples with the bones of their mighty men. (see story of Desoto and first contact) , that lady( my direct grandmother) was waiting for the One who could flesh the bones ( that she protected ) of their mighty men because there wound be a massive war after their bones are made a live . So he showed me what he can do , so I can verify / witness that He has done it ! He is fleshing the bones of the mighty and the faithful !
Could that be the kind of ressurrection that Paul sought ? Because the ressurection of the dead that is future were the dead . He clearly has dead that live now , at least their bodies do . Can it get any more confusing. Except to say I will not be like the Pharisees of his time and tell Him How he must do it. Not when this subject scripturally is as fuzzywuzzy as it is and he cant fix their wrong concepts when he tries. I might try and answer more of those questions you asked later. All I can say is I can verify / testify because I seen them. And my ministry I suspect will be to native people .
Was Moses inside of Moses body ? I think it was him there and he sure has a bad studder. And looks nothing like Charlton Heston. Cute short chunky man.

Where in the bible to you find that when we die we start again in a new body? That sounds like reincarnation to me, and that's not biblical. Where in the bible are we told that the Queen of Sheba is a still beautiful woman, and about 6ft 2in tall, or that Adam and Eve are now 7ft or more tall?

 

[Platte]

Thats why I thought I would focus on human development in the last 20 or 30,000 years rather than the millions with the fossil records and geology.

We have the written and lived experiences of humans within the last 15,000 years. There is much more material to carbon date. We can also trace the gradual development of cultures with the archeology in the ground. Show that X period like the Egytian dynasties took 3,000 years, the Roman period around 500 years ect.

But we can also trace the period before this going back 1,000s of years. Before the dynastic Egytians were the pre dynastic period and before that going back to tribal kings. Before that going back to simple hunter gatherers. We have all the time periods in layers not millions of years but within 20 or 30,000 years.

Because we can show the dynastic period and the Roman period timeline are facts what your asking is that all the pre history that developed over and even longer time has to be crammed into a very short window thus not having enough to for these H&G, then cultures and tribes to develop.

Its like saying that simple H&G with flint tools came just before the dynastic Egyptians who have amazing works. The jump is unreal and doesn't allow for the real life evolution of human civilisation.

Here are some links I posted in a similar thread showing all the sites around the world that have been verified by carbon dating to around 3 to 10,000BCE years old. There are dozens. The ones dated at 3,000BCE didn't just pop into existence from nowhere. They also have a history going back.

Prehistoric Burials in Ancient Egypt Paleolithic Burials
Qadan burials dating to between 14,000 and 12,000 B.C. (late Paleolithic) have been excavated at Gebel Sahaba (near Wadi Halfa in Lower Nubia).
Prehistoric Burials in Ancient Egypt Paleolithic Burials | Ancient Egypt Online

Starting in the Predynastic era (before 3100 BCE) and continuing into later dynasties, the ancient Egyptians developed increasingly complex and effective methods for preserving and protecting the bodies of the dead. They first buried their dead in pit graves dug from the sand with the body placed on a mat, usually along with some items believed to help them in the afterlife. The first tomb structure the Egyptians developed was the mastaba, composed of earthen bricks made from soil along the Nile.

Mastaba - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Radiocarbon dating the first temples of mankind. Comments on 14C-Dates from Göbekli Tepe
The monument has been reliably dated to 9500-8500 BC using the radiocarbon method (Dietrich, 2011 , Dietrich & Schmidt, 2010.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/258182967_Radiocarbon_dating_the_first_temples_of_mankind_Comments_on_14C-Dates_from_Gobekli_Tepe#:~:text=The importance of the ancient,, Dietrich & Schmidt, 2010.

The Early Neolithic sites (10,000 BCE to 3,800 BCE)

The Early Neolithic sites (10,000 BCE to 3,800 BCE) used in our analysis. Sites shown with blue symbols have 14 C dates available, and those in red are archaeologically dated. Modern national borders are shown dashed. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0095714.g001
https://www.researchgate.net/figure...ed-in-our-analysis-Sites-shown_fig1_262147801

Even Jericho has a history going back some 10,000 years. What was Jericho was built upon and built upon and rebuilt upon before it was Jericho. This is the same for many ancient cities.

Jericho, A Living History, Ten Thousand Years of Civilization

Jericho, A Living History, Ten Thousand Years of Civilization

Jericho, Riha in Arabic, is located in the lower part of the Jordan Valley, ten kilometers west of the Jordan River and twelve kilometers north of the Dead Sea. At a depth of 250 meters below the sea level and a history dating back to the Neolithic

www.academia.edu

Nothing you posted is even remotely compelling. You provided nothing that predates Creation as told to us by Moses. Is this all you have?

 

[Job 33:6]

That's why I said that I honestly don't know. 2 Peter 2:4 doesn't mention the details of how the angels sinned:

“For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast [them] down to hell and delivered [them] into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;” (2Pe 2:4 NKJV)

Jude might seem to:

“And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.” (Jude 1:6-7 NKJV)

But the commentaries I have looked at seem to suggest that Jude doesn't mean that the angels committed fornication. For instance, John Gill wrote:

"in like manner giving themselves over to fornication; not as the angels, who are not capable of sinning in such a manner; though the Jews make this to be a sin of theirs, and so interpret Ge 6:2,4 [{i }], but rather the Israelites, among whom this sin prevailed, 1Co 10:8; though it seems best of all to refer it to the false teachers that turned the grace of God into lasciviousness, and were very criminal this way;"

Also, let's take another look here:

2 Peter 2:4-5 ESV
[4] For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment; [5] if he did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a herald of righteousness, with seven others, when he brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly;

Another evidence that Jude and Peter are referring to the sins of the angels of Genesis 6, is to note that Peter also states "but preserved Noah". This is Genesis 6, the flood story. Again this is pulling from enochian tradition. And there are at least two other places, perhaps more, where Peter speaks in parallel to enochian tradition.

One being when Jesus visits the imprisoned spirits. Enoch does the same thing. (This isn't a coincidence, Peter uses Enoch as a type of the one to come). Kind of like how Jesus relates himself to Jonah, or how Paul relates Jesus to Adam. Peter, uses Enoch in a typological sense, when referring to Jesus. And that is 1 Peter 3.

1 Peter 3:18-20 ESV
[18] For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, [19] in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, [20] because they formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water.

And you see it here. This is enochian tradition. Enoch visits imprisoned spirits that did not obey (they sinned and abandoned their proper dwelling) while the ark was being prepared. Genesis 6.

This isn't a coincidence. Any anyone who reads 1 Enoch can see this. And Peter does this elsewhere as well.

 

[Reneep]

Ps and Shebah may not know she is Shebah, Helen may not know she is Helen. Alicione may not know even who Alicone is MAYA MAY NOT EVEN BE WITH THE MAYAN.. AND NOT KNOW SHE IS MAYA. , but this scripture

Isaiah 49:23 KJV — And kings shall be thy nursing fathers, and their queens thy nursing mothers: they shall bow down to thee with their face toward the earth, and lick up the dust of thy feet; and thou shalt know that I am the LORD: for they shall not be ashamed that wait for me. THE REWARDS ARE FOR THE FAITHFUL. These have to be queens inorder for their sons to be priest in the order of Melchzedec. The 144000 have to be legitimate kings. Like melchezedec , like Jesus.


SO that scripture is coming true. Because the Queens are having sons in the order of that priesthood. The 144000. ALICIONE ( ZION ) HAD A SON, CAN WE GUESS WHICH PRIESTLY ORDER HE I WILL BE. IN ? DOES SHE EVEN KNOW THAT ? PROBABLY NOT! But how many kings and queens do you know even in history ? Can i guess not 144000 of them ? They are all here hidden in plain site. A few i know who they are , but I doubt they know who they are. But they are safe and hidden for now. But the revelation of those " sons God" will come. And who their mommas are too.
Revelation 7:4 KJV — And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel and
Romans 8:19 KJV — For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

 

[Platte]

Thats why I thought I would focus on human development in the last 20 or 30,000 years rather than the millions with the fossil records and geology.

We have the written and lived experiences of humans within the last 15,000 years.

Ok so tell me about this written experiences. Recorded history only goes back 5500 years.

 

[stevevw]

Nothing you posted is even remotely compelling. You provided nothing that predates Creation as told to us by Moses. Is this all you have?

I just gave you scientific testing that has been repreated on many locations throughout the world with carbon dating. The good think about using carbon dating for young time frames is that there is more organic material to test. For soil, bones, vegetation, charcoal ect found in the site.

Another obvious one is that when we look at the geology for recent floods of global proportions the only one we find in the record is the floods from the Younger Dryas when the ice caps suddenly melted some 12 to 14,000 years ago. We have the geological evidence such as the Channelled Scablands and other signs of a giant flood like giant ripples found all over the world.

These did not come from a flood in the last 6,000 years because there has never been one so big. If there is going to be any real life flood that equals a global event that would cause nearly every culture to make a flood story about it is going to be the floods that happened during the YD.

Otherwise you literally have to say a worldwide flood happened at the time of the Sumerians and there is no evidence for this. In fact the Sumerians draw their flood stories from a previous time well before they came along.

 

[Platte]

I just gave you scientific testing that has been repreated on many locations throughout the world with carbon dating. The good think about using carbon dating for young time frames is that there is more organic material to test. For soil, bones, vegetation, charcoal ect found in the site.

Ok what item has been carbon dated. How was it tested. What was the amount of C14 at time of death and what was the C14 when tested?

Another obvious one is that when we look at the geology for recent floods of global proportions the only one we find in the record is the floods from the Younger Dryas when the ice caps suddenly melted some 12 to 14,000 years ago.

What is your proof that this event occurred 12-14k years ago?

We have the geological evidence such as the Channelled Scablands and other signs of a giant flood like giant ripples found all over the world.

These did not come from a flood in the last 6,000 years because there has never been one so big. If there is going to be any real life flood that equals a global event that would cause nearly every culture to make a flood story about it is going to be the floods that happened during the YD.

Otherwise you literally have to say a worldwide flood happened at the time of the Sumerians and there is no evidence for this. In fact the Sumerians draw their flood stories from a previous time well before they came along.

That’s your subjective viewpoint. It’s not compelling to reject what Moses taught.

 

[stevevw]

Ok so tell me about this written experiences. Recorded history only goes back 5500 years.

Actually writing goes back 5,500 years. You seem to think this was the beginning of humans. Just as long as writing has been around so has other forms of communication like Glyphs and symbolic meanings in rock structures and orientations before writing. Even longer.

Usually having a religious meaning as this is all people seem to have known. Everything had a religious or spiritual meaning. Even harvests for food was associated with the gods or spirits of the sun and moon and seasons ect.

But all these beliefs and were communciated through a variety of non written ways and this had been developing for as long as writing. Look at the simple cave art from 20,000 years ago. Some are dated in 10s of 1,000s of years. Have you seen the petroglyphs or geoglyphs. They are strange symbols built into the landscape that only make sense from an ariel view. They are all over the world.

The geoglyph sites of Acre, Brazil: 10 000-year-old land-use practices and climate change in Amazonia | Antiquity | Cambridge Core

The geoglyph sites of Acre, Brazil: 10 000-year-old land-use practices and climate change in Amazonia - Volume 94 Issue 378

www.cambridge.org

The Indian Geoglyphs in Maharashtra: Evidence of a Lost Civilization

The Indian geoglyphs discovered in the Maharashtra region date back as far as 12.000 years ago and point to a lost Indian civilization.

www.theancientconnection.com

What about the stone glyphs. The glyphs at Gobekli Tepe are a fom of writing but in symbols that had meanings. These were often associated with astronomy. This was how people communicated 12 to 14,000 years ago. We actually see this right through to the Egyptian hyroglyphs and into Sumarien culture with both glyphs and cuniform writing and then into more modern forms.

An interesting point about these ancient forms of communication is that some of these symbols like the 'handbag of the gods' symbol are found throughout the world as though many cultures had a similar knowledge pass down from the gods.

Here is the same 'handbag' symbol in other cultures throughout history that often never contacted each other. The Egyptians, Indians, in Peru, and even the Sumariens.

Why Are Mysterious Handbags Prevalent in Ancient Carvings Worldwide?
Handbags can be seen in the art of disparate cultures from around the world and throughout time, with the first known instance of a handbag appearing at the end of the Ice Age.

Why Are Mysterious Handbags Prevalent in Ancient Carvings Worldwide?

One of the more mysterious symbols that has been found in carvings from the ancient world is an image that looks uncannily like a modern-day handbag.

www.ancient-origins.net

 

[stevevw]

Ok what item has been carbon dated. How was it tested. What was the amount of C14 at time of death and what was the C14 when tested?

Thats all contained in the paper I linked. First are you disputing carbon dating as a method to establish dates.

What is your proof that this event occurred 12-14k years ago?

The Younger Dryas period where at the end of the last iceage there was a sudden climate change where the earth went into a deep cold snap and then temparatures began to warm quickly is well acknowledged in mainstream sciences.

We have a geological record in the layers of the earth and with ice cores that show this climate change. We even have signatures of a possible comet air burst during this time with evidence of certain markers that only come from comets all over the earth in the same layers.

We have flood damage and evidence in the geology and landscapes like giant ripples, the Channelled Scablands, the flooding of the Mediterranian and Black seas around the same time. We have evidence of what is called 'Meltwater Pulse 1 and 2' which were the great melting events of the ice cap.

This caused most of the flooding into the seas and oceans causing sea levels to rise up to 300 feet. Some of which came suddenly flooding across continents and coastlines and cutting off what once were land brides between land masses. Of course wiping out many megafauna and humans. This is all evidenced.

What more do you want. Do you really want me to re link the evidence. Its there to be found. Just do a search. I have linked this in several threads. Wait a minute. Here #44, here #49, here #855, and here #151 for starters.

Heres an example
Radiocarbon dating the first temples of mankind. Comments on 14C-Dates from Göbekli Tepe
The monument has been reliably dated to 9500-8500 BC using the radiocarbon method (Dietrich, 2011 , Dietrich & Schmidt, 2010.
https://www.researchgate.net/public...nkind_Comments_on_14C-Dates_from_Gobekli_Tepe

That’s your subjective viewpoint. It’s not compelling to reject what Moses taught.

How about you do some research first and look at the evidence. Theres over 40 sites throughout the world cabon dated and they all can't be wrong.

None of this denies Noahs flood story. It actually solidifies it as it shows a real flood event happened and its recorded in geology, archeology and the flood stories of just about every culture on earth.

 

[Platte]

Actually writing goes back 5,500 years. You seem to think this was the beginning of humans. Just as long as writing has been around so has other forms of communication like Glyphs and symbolic meanings in rock structures and orientations before writing. Even longer.

Usually having a religious meaning as this is all people seem to have known. Everything had a religious or spiritual meaning. Even harvests for food was associated with the gods or spirits of the sun and moon and seasons ect.

But all these beliefs and were communciated through a variety of non written ways and this had been developing for as long as writing. Look at the simple cave art from 20,000 years ago. Some are dated in 10s of 1,000s of years. Have you seen the petroglyphs or geoglyphs. They are strange symbols built into the landscape that only make sense from an ariel view. They are all over the world.

View attachment 360560

The geoglyph sites of Acre, Brazil: 10 000-year-old land-use practices and climate change in Amazonia | Antiquity | Cambridge Core

The geoglyph sites of Acre, Brazil: 10 000-year-old land-use practices and climate change in Amazonia - Volume 94 Issue 378

www.cambridge.org

View attachment 360565

The Indian Geoglyphs in Maharashtra: Evidence of a Lost Civilization

The Indian geoglyphs discovered in the Maharashtra region date back as far as 12.000 years ago and point to a lost Indian civilization.

www.theancientconnection.com

What about the stone glyphs. The glyphs at Gobekli Tepe are a fom of writing but in symbols that had meanings. These were often associated with astronomy. This was how people communicated 12 to 14,000 years ago. We actually see this right through to the Egyptian hyroglyphs and into Sumarien culture with both glyphs and cuniform writing and then into more modern forms.

View attachment 360561

An interesting point about these ancient forms of communication is that some of these symbols like the 'handbag of the gods' symbol are found throughout the world as though many cultures had a similar knowledge pass down from the gods.

Here is the same 'handbag' symbol in other cultures throughout history that often never contacted each other. The Egyptians, Indians, in Peru, and even the Sumariens.

View attachment 360562

Why Are Mysterious Handbags Prevalent in Ancient Carvings Worldwide?
Handbags can be seen in the art of disparate cultures from around the world and throughout time, with the first known instance of a handbag appearing at the end of the Ice Age.

Why Are Mysterious Handbags Prevalent in Ancient Carvings Worldwide?

One of the more mysterious symbols that has been found in carvings from the ancient world is an image that looks uncannily like a modern-day handbag.

www.ancient-origins.net

You are just posting speculative dates....

If Creation occured in the middle east area approximately 6000 years ago...and world records show the first writings and the first civilization are both approx 5500 years ago - IN THE MIDDLE EAST! You don't see how strong that supports the Biblical (Moses) account of Creation? Or are you just gonna chalk it up to a coincidence LOL. The hard evidence is right in front of you.

 

[River Jordan]

You are just posting speculative dates....

Speculative? Do you think the scientists who published those dates just sat around a table and made up numbers or something?

 

[Reneep]

Speculative? Do you think the scientists who published those dates just sat around a table and made up numbers or something?

Obviously there are events they don't know the laws of to pull dates out of their faulty theories, so the result of their dates is no different than sitting around a table making up dates. I guess that I figured out a way that "scienceish" could be really wrong and God right. So I sat around a table asking GOD ABOUT things too high for ME , LIKE So many times. Did he answer ?

I DONT KNOW ,
SO I GOT A FEW IDEAS and i came up with a few ways if I was God I might do it,. SO IF I WAS GOD AND CREATED MANKIND TO LIVE FOREVER I would have to create a perfect environment for mankind, one that had no radiation, no solar radiations, no earths radiation, thus they would have to be completely surrounded by water. Water above ( OH God called it "THE WATERS ABOVE " Aka" firmament above " "in the water. "like a dome of water and probably salt above and around the earth and with Waters under THE SOILS TO stop any of earth's self made radioactive elements from reaching the Humans capsule that is in the waters " But I WOULD NEED THAT filtered sun light so it can touch the plants and them and the animals.

SO NO CARBON 14 OR 12 or ANY OTHER RADIATION WOULD BE CREATED UNTIL THERE WAS UNFILTERED SUNLIGHT AND OR A COSMIC EVENT WOULD LEAVE RARE EARTH MINERALS. THEY ARE RARE EARTH BECAUSE THEY DIDNT COME FROM HERE , NOR COULD IT HAVE COME FROM HIS CHILDRENS CAPSULE ABOUT 1700+ YEARS.

So just by me believing what I created around a table and His Word. I would have expected all pre flood animals to have zero radio active elements in them.
Scientist claims the laws of that creation as billions of years old because it half-lifed itself dry of the juice..

BUT I say anything with the juice in it is post Flood. And that a GOOD GOD REALLY DID CREATE A WORLD WHERE HIS CHILDREN COULD LIVE FOREVER DISEASE FREE. HE HAD TO GIVE US A SHOT AT REAL LIFE . THAT IS WHAT LOVE WOULD DO.

AND THAT IS JUST ONE POSSIBILITY THAT COMPLETELY MAKES DATING ANY RADIOACTIVE ISOTOPES AS LAWLESS GARBAGE. AND I WILL SAY AGAIN THEY DONT KNOW THE LAWS THAT THEY DONT KNOW. BECAUSE THEIR MIND TELLS THEM THEY KNOW STUFF THEY DONT KNOW AND WILL NEVER ASK. BECAUSE MAN BELIEVES MAN BUT MAN IS A LIAR. AND COWARDLY LIKE THEIR DADDIES WERE. THAT IS JUST ME SITTING AROUND A TABLE.

 

[Platte]

Speculative? Do you think the scientists who published those dates just sat around a table and made up numbers or something?

Any time you use carbon dating - you do have selective acceptance and rejection of the results....and they are based on unverified assumptions. It is their "best guess" based on the best dating methods at their disposal. The date are not FACTUAL or verifiable.
So yes it is speculative.

Carbon dating should NEVER be used as your argument against the Bible.

*Read this again*
If Creation occured in the middle east area approximately 6000 years ago...and world records show the first writings and the first civilization are both approx 5500 years ago - IN THE MIDDLE EAST! You don't see how strong that supports the Biblical (Moses) account of Creation? Or are you just gonna chalk it up to a coincidence LOL. The hard evidence is right in front of you.