Pyramids and the flood

[David Lamb]

I'm pretty sure that YECs are the last people who should be talking about the plain reading of translations.

Genesis 1:1-3 NRSVUE
[1] When God began to create the heavens and the earth, [2] the earth was complete chaos, and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters. [3] Then God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.

Traditionally, Genesis was never even about the beginning of the universe. Rather, the beginning was always about the beginning of God's creation. Genesis 1:1-2 has the same syntax of verses such as Jeremiah 26:1 and 27:1 for example.

But the bible says that God created all things, not that there was alkready a universe in existence when He began creating:

“Praise the LORD! Praise the LORD from the heavens; Praise Him in the heights! Praise Him, all His angels; Praise Him, all His hosts! Praise Him, sun and moon; Praise Him, all you stars of light! Praise Him, you heavens of heavens, And you waters above the heavens! Let them praise the name of the LORD, For He commanded and they were created. He also established them forever and ever; He made a decree which shall not pass away.” (Ps 148:1-6 NKJV)

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.” (Joh 1:1-3 NKJV)

 

[Job 33:6]

But the bible says that God created all things, not that there was alkready a universe in existence when He began creating:

“Praise the LORD! Praise the LORD from the heavens; Praise Him in the heights! Praise Him, all His angels; Praise Him, all His hosts! Praise Him, sun and moon; Praise Him, all you stars of light! Praise Him, you heavens of heavens, And you waters above the heavens! Let them praise the name of the LORD, For He commanded and they were created. He also established them forever and ever; He made a decree which shall not pass away.” (Ps 148:1-6 NKJV)

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.” (Joh 1:1-3 NKJV)

I never said that God didn't create all things in Genesis. So let's start there. Psalm 148 does not contradict what I am saying.

Is this an intentional strawman argument?

You guys just aren't being honest about the topic by disregarding the fact that bara is an ex materia term countless times, if not universally, throughout the OT.

Ex nihilo creation is an anachronism.

 

[David Lamb]

I never said that God didn't create all things in Genesis. So let's start there. Psalm 148 does not contradict what I am saying.

Is this an intentional strawman argument?

You guys just aren't being honest about the topic by disregarding the fact that bara is an ex materia term countless times, if not universally, throughout the OT.

Ex nihilo creation is an anachronism.

But you did write: "Traditionally, Genesis was never even about the beginning of the universe. Rather, the beginning was always about the beginning of God's creation." Perhaps I have misunderstood you, but to me you seemed to be saying that Genesis does not say that God created all things, but that He only started creating after the universe was already in existence.

I wasn't sure what a strawman argument is, so I certainly wasn't deliberately using one. I looked it up, and it seems it means deliberately misrepresenting a position in order to argue against it. I certainly wasn't doing that.

 

[Job 33:6]

But you did write: "Traditionally, Genesis was never even about the beginning of the universe. Rather, the beginning was always about the beginning of God's creation." Perhaps I have misunderstood you, but to me you seemed to be saying that Genesis does not say that God created all things, but that He only started creating after the universe was already in existence.

I wasn't sure what a strawman argument is, so I certainly wasn't deliberately using one. I looked it up, and it seems it means deliberately misrepresenting a position in order to argue against it. I certainly wasn't doing that.

I don't understand why you're still confusing this topic, but I'll try to explain again.

In Genesis, God created everything, but the creation was not ex nihilo.

It seems to me like you guys are being intentionally dishonest about this, or somehow you're just overlooking very basic concepts.

You guys are acting as though the only way God could possibly create things is if he made them appear out of nothing.

If you have created a work of art, or created a business, or created a pizza, or created a football team etc. Team etc. You have created things without needing physical material to appear out of nothing.

And God is perfectly capable of doing the same thing.

In Genesis, God can create everything, without material needing to appear out of nothing

 

[David Lamb]

I don't understand why you're still confusing this topic, but I'll try to explain again.

In Genesis, God created everything, but the creation was not ex nihilo.

It seems to me like you guys are being intentionally dishonest about this, or somehow you're just overlooking very basic concepts.

Not dishonest, simply still not understanding your argument. If God created everything, how could His Creation not be ex nihilo? We either believe that God did create everything or that He created using some pre-existing materials, and we are then left with the question of where those materials came from.

 

[Job 33:6]

Not dishonest, simply still not understanding your argument. If God created everything, how could His Creation not be ex nihilo? We either believe that God did create everything or that He created using some pre-existing materials, and we are then left with the question of where those materials came from.

Your response assumes that the only kind of creation must be materialistic out of nothing.

You're not acknowledging that there are other ways of creating things aside from them appearing out of nothing.

If you are at the beach and you create a sand castle, you have created something without needing material to appear out of nothing.

God creating everything does not mandate that God must create everything out of nothing.

The idea that it's either out of nothing, or it's not creation, is a false dichotomy, it's a logical fallacy

 

[Job 33:6]

Not dishonest, simply still not understanding your argument. If God created everything, how could His Creation not be ex nihilo? We either believe that God did create everything or that He created using some pre-existing materials, and we are then left with the question of where those materials came from.

The idea that it's either a or b, it's either out of nothing, or it can't possibly be creation, that's a logical fallacy, it's a false dichotomy.

In the Bible, God often creates using material that is already present. We know that God can do this. God created me and you, but we also had mothers and were born. God knitted us together in our mother's wombs.

God can create things without needing them to appear out of nothing.

So making the argument that creation is either out of nothing, or that it's not actually creation, is simply wrong.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I'm pretty sure that YECs are the last people who should be talking about the plain reading of translations.

Genesis 1:1-3 NRSVUE
[1] When God began to create the heavens and the earth, [2] the earth was complete chaos, and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters. [3] Then God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.

Or a more middle ground translation:
Genesis 1:1-3 NRSV
[1] In the beginning when God created the heavens and the earth, [2] the earth was a formless void and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters. [3] Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.

"When God created" is "the" beginning.

Traditionally, Genesis was never even about the beginning of the universe. Rather, the beginning was always about the beginning of God's creation. Genesis 1:1-2 has the same syntax of verses such as Jeremiah 26:1 and 27:1 for example.

And this understanding was present, traditionally. Only to later largely be replaced upon the writing of the KJV.

And of course, there was no concept of "ex nihilo" creation in Moses' time. That's an anachronism from later Greco Roman times.

that translation is incorrect because it contradicts Exodus 20:11 because it puts the creation of the heavens and the earth before the first day.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Your response assumes that the only kind of creation must be materialistic out of nothing.

You're not acknowledging that there are other ways of creating things aside from them appearing out of nothing.

If you are at the beach and you create a sand castle, you have created something without needing material to appear out of nothing.

God creating everything does not mandate that God must create everything out of nothing.

The idea that it's either out of nothing, or it's not creation, is a false dichotomy, it's a logical fallacy

If God created EVERYTHING then He would’ve had to create the materials you’re talking about that were used to create the universe. If there were materials that existed that weren’t created by Him then it couldn’t be said that He created all things.

 

[BNR32FAN]

So making the argument that creation is either out of nothing, or that it's not actually creation, is simply wrong.

That’s not what he said. He said if materials existed that weren’t created by God then that would mean that God didn’t create all things because you’re saying that things existed that He didn’t create.

 

[David Lamb]

Your response assumes that the only kind of creation must be materialistic out of nothing.

You're not acknowledging that there are other ways of creating things aside from them appearing out of nothing.

If you are at the beach and you create a sand castle, you have created something without needing material to appear out of nothing.

God creating everything does not mandate that God must create everything out of nothing.

The idea that it's either out of nothing, or it's not creation, is a false dichotomy, it's a logical fallacy

You seem to apply a different meaning to "everything" to how I understand the word. I take it to mean "all things." You seem to be saying (and I'm sorry if I have misunderstood you) that the "everything" God created excluded what you say were the pre-existing materials. I agree with what BNR32FAN wrote in Post 149.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I agree with all that, except for the last sentence. Yes, a day with the Lord is like a thousand years, and a thousand years with the Lord are as a day, but that doesn't mean that when we read the word "day" in God's Word, we have to take it as meaning a thousand years. God didn't cause His Word to be written for His own benefit, but for mankind. The very fact that repeatedly in Genesis 1 we read that the evening and the morning were the _th day, not that a thousand evenings and mornings were the _th day! Besides, your reasoning would make six thousand years, not many billions of years, out of 6 days.

Technically a thousand years would be 365,000 evenings and mornings brother. But we get you’re point.

 

[David Lamb]

Technically a thousand years would be 365,000 evenings and mornings brother. But we get you’re point.

Agreed. Thanks.

 

[Job 33:6]

You seem to apply a different meaning to "everything" to how I understand the word. I take it to mean "all things." You seem to be saying (and I'm sorry if I have misunderstood you) that the "everything" God created excluded what you say were the pre-existing materials. I agree with what BNR32FAN wrote in Post 149.

I feel like you're still not getting it. What God created, is what exists. All things, is what God has created. There is no thing that God has not created, that exists before God created.

But that's not to say that in materialistic terms, that nothing was present beforehand.

You keep returning to this idea that creation can only be ex nihilo, without understanding that creation can be done ex materia. And when understood in ex materia terms, that which materialistically was present before God created, is not "something", it is "nothing".

That's what tohu wa bohu means. It is, in Hebrew "nothing". Like a barren wasteland. Or a desert. There is nothing there. Or, let's say if you went to the beach, and you're just there alone. No people, no music, no sand castles. No hotels. No boardwalk. It's just you. Yes, there is sand, and "the deep" but these things have no order, no meaning, no value or purpose.

In a desert, there is just sand. There is nothing of value or meaning or purpose. There is nothing there.

That's what tohu wa bohu is.

And so before God created His sandcastle. There was nothing there.

Instead of thing of "something" and "nothing" in ex nihilo terms. I'm saying that, there is a 3rd option here that you're not acknowledging. That is "something" and "nothing" in ex materia terms.

 

[Job 33:6]

That’s not what he said. He said if materials existed that weren’t created by God then that would mean that God didn’t create all things because you’re saying that things existed that He didn’t create.

Again, this is a false dichotomy.

All things that exist, are that which God created. You're thinking about the topic backwards.

Rather than God's creation being dependent on material appearing out of nothing. You have to think of it in ex materia terms. That which God creates, ex materia, is that which exists.

Before that time, it's all just tohu wa bohu. Which, in Hebrew, is "nothing" or sometimes translated as that which is meaningless, futile, without purpose, void, emptiness etc.

Tohu wa bohu is "nothing". It is, uncreated.

That which exists in ex nihilo materialistic terms before God created, doesn't actually exist in ex materia terms. It is "tohu wa bohu". It is "nothing".

 

[David Lamb]

I feel like you're still not getting it. What God created, is what exists. All things, is what God has created. There is no thing that God has not created, that exists before God created.

But that's not to say that in materialistic terms, that nothing was present beforehand.

Those two paragraphs contradict each other. In the first, you say, "There is no thing that God has not created, that exists before God created," and in the second you assert that that doesn't mean that nothing was present beforehand. That seems totally illogical.

You keep returning to this idea that creation can only be ex nihilo, without understanding that creation can be done ex materia. And when understood in ex materia terms, that which materialistically was present before God created, is not "something", it is "nothing".

That's what tohu wa bohu means. It is, in Hebrew "nothing". Like a barren wasteland. Or a desert. There is nothing there. Or, let's say if you went to the beach, and you're just there alone. No people, no music, no sand castles. No hotels. No boardwalk. It's just you. Yes, there is sand, and "the deep" but these things have no order, no meaning, no value or purpose.

In a desert, there is just sand. There is nothing of value or meaning or purpose. There is nothing there.

But sand isn't nothing, is it?

That's what tohu wa bohu is.

And so before God created His sandcastle. There was nothing there.

Instead of thing of "something" and "nothing" in ex nihilo terms. I'm saying that, there is a 3rd option here that you're not acknowledging. That is "something" and "nothing" in ex materia terms.

The bible does not say that God created like a child on the beach building a sandcastle using pre-existing sand, and probably a pre-existing bucket and spade!

 

[Job 33:6]

You seem to apply a different meaning to "everything" to how I understand the word. I take it to mean "all things." You seem to be saying (and I'm sorry if I have misunderstood you) that the "everything" God created excluded what you say were the pre-existing materials. I agree with what BNR32FAN wrote in Post 149.

You're repeating the same false dichotomy over and over again by assuming that the only way that something can be created, is if it comes into existence through ex nihilo terms, or "out of nothing".

But again, if you reframe the topic in ex materia terms, before God creates, these "pre-existing materials" as you describe them, don't actually exist. There are not actually "pre existing". They are tohu wa bohu.

It's like, before you make a sandcastle. You could, in a modern ex nihilo perspective say "well the sand is there, I feel it between my toes!".

Well, you have to get out of that ex nihilo mindset and think in ex materia terms. The sandcastle isn't there yet. It's all just tohu wa bohu. There is "nothing" there at all. Just an empty desert. You look around and, it's empty. No people. No animals yet. No trees or birds. No life at all. No houses. No cars or roads, no music, no light. There is no fruit trees. No, restaurants etc.

When you position yourself in an ex materia mindset, "existence" is more about meaning and purpose, than it is about materialistic existence.

And that's why in Genesis, heaven and earth are described as tohu wa bohu. They hadn't been created yet. Earth was created on day 3 for example. Before then, earth wasn't a "thing" it was "nothing" it was tohu wa bohu.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Again, this is a false dichotomy.

All things that exist, are that which God created. You're thinking about the topic backwards.

Rather than God's creation being dependent on material appearing out of nothing. You have to think of it in ex materia terms. That which God creates, ex materia, is that which exists.

Before that time, it's all just tohu wa bohu. Which, in Hebrew, is "nothing" or sometimes translated as that which is meaningless, futile, without purpose, void, emptiness etc.

Tohu wa bohu is "nothing". It is, uncreated.

That which exists in ex nihilo materialistic terms before God created, doesn't actually exist in ex materia terms. It is "tohu wa bohu". It is "nothing".

Colossians 1:16 specifically states that God created all things. That’s the passage we’re quoting. If anything existed prior to God’s creation then that contradicts Colossians 1:16. Verse 17 says that He is before all things as well which means that they didn’t just always exist.


“For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭1‬:‭16‬-‭17‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

 

[Job 33:6]

Those two paragraphs contradict each other. In the first, you say, "There is no thing that God has not created, that exists before God created," and in the second you assert that that doesn't mean that nothing was present beforehand. That seems totally illogical.

But sand isn't nothing, is it?

Sand is "nothing" in the old testament. It is tohu wa bohu. That's what nothing is. In Hebrew that's what these terms mean.

It's only illogical if you're stuck in the false dichotomy of "it must be ex nihilo or it's not creation" mindset.

 

[BNR32FAN]

You're repeating the same false dichotomy over and over again by assuming that the only way that something can be created, is if it comes into existence through ex nihilo terms, or "out of nothing".

But again, if you reframe the topic in ex materia terms, before God creates, these "pre-existing materials" as you describe them, don't actually exist. There are not actually "pre existing". They are tohu wa bohu.

It's like, before you make a sandcastle. You could, in a modern ex nihilo perspective say "well the sand is there, I feel it between my toes!".

Well, you have to get out of that ex nihilo mindset and think in ex materia terms. The sandcastle isn't there yet. It's all just tohu wa bohu. There is "nothing" there at all. Just an empty desert. You look around and, it's empty. No people. No animals yet. No trees or birds. No life at all. No houses. No cars or roads, no music, no light. There is no fruit trees. No, restaurants etc.

When you position yourself in an ex materia mindset, "existence" is more about meaning and purpose, than it is about materialistic existence.

And that's why in Genesis, heaven and earth are described as tohu wa bohu. They hadn't been created yet. Earth was created on day 3 for example. Before then, earth wasn't a "thing" it was "nothing" it was tohu wa bohu.

Nobody is saying that God can’t create ex materia.