Pyramids and the flood

[BNR32FAN]

I wasn't arguing that point, just answering a post where it had been stated that the bible teaches that a day is a thousand years.

Yes I know brother I was just agreeing with you and demonstrating how the argument that a day is 1000 years still doesn’t account for 4.5 billion years because it still only gives us 12,000 years and even if you put the gap theory on top of the 1000 year argument it still doesn’t work.

 

[David Lamb]

Yes I know brother I was just agreeing with you and demonstrating how the argument that a day is 1000 years still doesn’t account for 4.5 billion years because it still only gives us 12,000 years and even if you put the gap theory on top of the 1000 year argument it still doesn’t work.

Thanks for explaining that. I don't believe in a billions-of-years-old Creation, or in the "Gap Theory".

 

[Diamond72]

I said that neither Moses nor Peter tell us that a day is a thousand years, but that with the Lord, a day is as or like a thousand years.

Understanding kə·yō·wm and yowm​

kə·yō·wm (כְּיוֹם) and yowm (יוֹם) are both Hebrew terms that relate to "day," but they are used differently:

• yowm (יוֹם): This is the basic Hebrew word for "day," typically understood as a literal 24-hour period.
• kə·yō·wm (כְּיוֹם): This compound word uses the prefix "kə" (כְּ) meaning "like" or "as," which creates a comparison. Therefore, "kə·yō·wm" means "like a day."

When the Bible uses "kə·yō·wm," it often makes a comparison to illustrate a concept, such as the idea that a thousand years are like a single day to God, emphasizing His timelessness and different perception of time compared to humans.

Darby and Dispensationalism​

I don't have any personal opinions, but I can share information:

• John Nelson Darby: A 19th-century theologian who developed dispensationalism, which divides history into distinct periods (dispensations) in which God interacts with humanity in different ways.
• Dispensationalism: This framework is significant in Christian eschatology, emphasizing a literal interpretation of the Bible, including prophecies and the distinction between Israel and the Church.

Interpretation of Psalm 90 by Moses​

In Psalm 90:4, Moses uses the term kə·yō·wm to highlight the vast difference between God's eternal nature and human life's fleeting existence: > "For a thousand years in your sight are like a day that has just gone by, or like a watch in the night."

Key Themes:​

• God's Eternal Perspective: A thousand years seem like a day to God, underscoring His timeless nature.
• Human Frailty: Contrasts human life’s brevity with God's eternal existence.
• Illustration of Timelessness: The comparison (kə·yō·wm) serves to illustrate God's different perception of time.
• Encouragement for Believers: Trust in God's eternal plan, knowing He is not bound by human time constraints.

Millennial Views​

• Pre-Tribulation: Belief that the Rapture will occur before the period of tribulation.
• Post-Millennial: Belief that Christ will return after a symbolic millennium of Christian prosperity and influence.

These views can seem contradictory, but they reflect diverse perspectives in eschatology. The 1,000-year reign mentioned in Revelation 20:1-7 is interpreted literally by some and symbolically by others, highlighting the variety of theological interpretations.

 

[Diamond72]

I don't believe in a billions-of-years-old Creation

How can you possibly reject what we learn from science? Do you not know that God gives us science to better understand and know Him? By science, I mean the method we use to determine what is and what is not a fact. I will not try to confuse facts with truth, although they are closely related.

The relationship between science and faith is a rich and complex one, with many believing that science is a tool given by God to help us better understand His creation.

Science and Faith:​

1. Complementary Paths: Science and faith can be seen as complementary ways of understanding the world. Science seeks to uncover the mechanisms of how things work, while faith provides meaning and purpose behind those mechanisms.
2. Revelation Through Creation: Many believers see scientific discovery as a way to appreciate the intricacies and wonders of God's creation. The Bible, especially in passages like Psalm 19:1, speaks to the glory of God being revealed in nature: > "The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands."

 

[Doug Brents]

Swing and a miss. Nice try though. By Heaven they are talking about our atmosphere.

Sorry, but the word is heavens (plural) which is the first and second heavens as the ancient Israelites understood it (the first heaven was the atmosphere, and the second heaven was "space" where the sun and stars are, the third heaven was where God is (outside of the physical universe)).

If you remember before Noah 4300 years ago, people lived to be 1,000. After Noah they lived to be 120 years. People think this has to do with the atmosphere and you have to fix the atmosphere (with fire) to fix the problems so people will live longer. A nuclear bomb has profound and far-reaching effects on the atmosphere. Even Musk talks about using a nuclear explosion to create an atmosphere on Mars that will sustain life. NASA does not agree with him but he still believes this.

Mars does not have enough mass to sustain an atmosphere any greater than it already possesses. If it did, it would have a greater atmosphere already. The atmosphere of Earth was "ruined" when God removed the waters that were above the Earth and rained them down on the Earth during the Flood. It would take replacing those waters to return the Earth to being able to sustain live of 1000 years. But that would require that the degradation of the gene pool were reversed (removing cancers, genetic defects, etc.).

Isa 65 20 ""Never again will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not live out his years; the one who dies at a hundred will be thought a mere child; the one who fails to reach a hundred will be considered accursed."

Even today they are extending the lives of people over past generations. We are already up to 80 years and the Bible talks about a time when the average will be more than 100.

Go back to Isa 65:17 where we find that he is not talking about this earth or the heavens (plural) that surround it. He is talking about the New heavens and new Earth (which come into existence after the old heavens and Earth are done away with. In that world we won't have children (I don't believe (we won't marry or be given in marriage)), and we won't die (Rev 21:1-4).

 

[Diamond72]

Pretty close. Jesus was born in about 3901 after Creation.

That would explain why the temple was not destroyed until 70 AD.

 

[Doug Brents]

That would explain why the temple was not destroyed until 70 AD.

How does that explain why the Temple was not destroyed until 70AD? What are you talking about? If you cannot stick to the topic at hand, then we are done here.

 

[Diamond72]

Sorry, but the word is heavens (plural) which is the first and second heavens as the ancient Israelites understood it (the first heaven was the atmosphere, and the second heaven was "space" where the sun and stars are, the third heaven was where God is (outside of the physical universe)).

Three Heavens in Ancient Understanding:​

1. First Heaven: This refers to the atmosphere, the sky where birds fly and clouds form.
2. Second Heaven: This is the outer space where the sun, moon, and stars exist.
3. Third Heaven: This is considered the dwelling place of God, beyond the physical universe, as mentioned by Paul in 2 Corinthians 12:2: > "I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven."

Biblical Context:​

• Atmosphere and Space: The first and second heavens encapsulate the natural world, encompassing everything from the air we breathe to the celestial bodies.
• Divine Realm: The third heaven signifies a spiritual realm, often seen as the abode of God and the angels, which transcends the physical universe.

Psalm 90 Context:​

When Moses uses "heavens" in passages like Psalm 90, it often underscores the majesty and vastness of God's creation, pointing to the different layers of the cosmos that declare His glory.

But that would require that the degradation of the gene pool were reversed (removing cancers, genetic defects, etc.).

There is a lot of research going into that. Esp in Jerusalam because there is so much inbreeding with the Hebrew people and they have a lot of genetic diseases.

Go back to Isa 65:17 where we find that he is not talking about this earth or the heavens (plural) that surround it. He is talking about the New heavens and new Earth (which come into existence after the old heavens and Earth are done away with. In that world we won't have children (I don't believe (we won't marry or be given in marriage)), and we won't die (Rev 21:1-4).

So what happens to us if we die before this resurrection? Where do we go between now and then?

 

[Diamond72]

How does that explain why the Temple was not destroyed until 70AD? What are you talking about? If you cannot stick to the topic at hand, then we are done here.

I respond to your post and what you said. Perhaps the discussion of the temple was in a different thread. I though that perhaps you had read the other thread also. But it would appear you have not read it.

None of this is making any sense anyways. You do not agree with Bishop Ussher which just about everyone agrees with. So your timeline does not line up with the general consensus.

 

[Doug Brents]

Three Heavens in Ancient Understanding:​

1. First Heaven: This refers to the atmosphere, the sky where birds fly and clouds form.
2. Second Heaven: This is the outer space where the sun, moon, and stars exist.
3. Third Heaven: This is considered the dwelling place of God, beyond the physical universe, as mentioned by Paul in 2 Corinthians 12:2: > "I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven."

Biblical Context:​

• Atmosphere and Space: The first and second heavens encapsulate the natural world, encompassing everything from the air we breathe to the celestial bodies.
• Divine Realm: The third heaven signifies a spiritual realm, often seen as the abode of God and the angels, which transcends the physical universe.

Psalm 90 Context:​

When Moses uses "heavens" in passages like Psalm 90, it often underscores the majesty and vastness of God's creation, pointing to the different layers of the cosmos that declare His glory.

Exactly my point. It is not referring only to the atmosphere of the Earth, but to all of the universe being destroyed at the second coming of Christ. There will be no more physical reality after His return, so the Millennium cannot be here on this Earth. It will be a completely spiritual experience in the third Heaven.

There is a lot of research going into that. Esp in Jerusalam because there is so much inbreeding with the Hebrew people and they have a lot of genetic diseases.

Yes, there is a lot of research going into this, but I do not believe that we have any chance of fixing it, especially because of the massive inbreeding in certain cultures.

So what happens to us if we die before this resurrection? Where do we go between now and then?

Everyone will either die before the Second Coming, or will be alive and either be taken to meet God in the sky (those who are in Christ) or die as the world is being destroyed by fire (all the rest). Those who are in Christ but already dead physically will be resurrected and also taken with Christ into Heaven. These are the ones He says don't have to worry about the "second death" that is coming for those who are not in Christ. After the thousand year wedding celebration then those who were not in Christ will be resurrected and Judgement will occur (after the final fight between them and Satan, and Christ and the saints (which Jesus wins)).

But you ask where we go between death and the resurrection? Some believe that we enter a spiritual sleep. Some believe that we exit time, and are immediately at Judgement. Some believe we enter a place like Paradise or Torment and await Judgement. All of these have Biblical support, and I don't really know which one is right. I guess we will just have to wait and see what happens when/if we die. I personally hope that the Second Coming happens during my lifetime.

 

[Diamond72]

After the thousand year wedding celebration then those who were not in Christ will be resurrected

That is the weak link in the chain. People believe that we go to heaven for 7 years and then come back to the earth. The Bible talks about a first resurrection of those who reign with Christ for 1,000 years.

My father was a medical doctor and spent all of his time to study the Science of Medicine. He did not have time to study the Bible and everyone has a different opinion about the Bible. He said doctors help who they can help. Pastors help who they can help. There is simply no conflict between Science and the Bible. They both help us to understand God.

2 Peter 3:10-12:​

> "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?"

Clearly Peter is talking about a nuclear war. I do not plan on living that long. I live about 30 miles from ground zero. But I do not believe everyone will die in that war. Some people will go though a 7 year tribulation period. At least that seems to be the general condenses among Christians. But you seem to have a little bit different perspective on this passage in 2 Peter. Peter had no idea what a nuclear bomb was. So he was doing the best he could to describe what he saw. The Bible talks about a sea of glass, which requires sand. IF you go to Armageddon that is what you find is sand. Israel said they will use nuclear bombs to defend themselves if they have to.

Armageddon, or Har-Megiddo, is a term used in the Bible to refer to the site of the final battle between good and evil. The area is known for its strategic location and historical battles, and it is a physical place in modern-day Israel.

Isaiah 66:24:​

> "And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind."

Mark 9:48:​

> "Where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched."

Jesus indeed speaks about hell in several passages throughout the Gospels, using vivid imagery to convey the reality of eternal punishment. One such place is Mark 9:43-48, where He uses the concept of unquenchable fire and undying worms to describe the severity and eternal nature of hell:

Lots of people talk about hell, but do they really know what they are talking about? If you throw garbage into a fire your intent is to burn up and destroy that garbage. We use to have an incinerator before they were outlawed.

A nuclear war could cause catastrophic damage and result in massive loss of life, but it is unlikely to completely destroy the planet or eradicate all life.

 

[David Lamb]

Understanding kə·yō·wm and yowm​

kə·yō·wm (כְּיוֹם) and yowm (יוֹם) are both Hebrew terms that relate to "day," but they are used differently:

• yowm (יוֹם): This is the basic Hebrew word for "day," typically understood as a literal 24-hour period.
• kə·yō·wm (כְּיוֹם): This compound word uses the prefix "kə" (כְּ) meaning "like" or "as," which creates a comparison. Therefore, "kə·yō·wm" means "like a day."

When the Bible uses "kə·yō·wm," it often makes a comparison to illustrate a concept, such as the idea that a thousand years are like a single day to God, emphasizing His timelessness and different perception of time compared to humans.

Darby and Dispensationalism​

I don't have any personal opinions, but I can share information:

• John Nelson Darby: A 19th-century theologian who developed dispensationalism, which divides history into distinct periods (dispensations) in which God interacts with humanity in different ways.
• Dispensationalism: This framework is significant in Christian eschatology, emphasizing a literal interpretation of the Bible, including prophecies and the distinction between Israel and the Church.

Interpretation of Psalm 90 by Moses​

In Psalm 90:4, Moses uses the term kə·yō·wm to highlight the vast difference between God's eternal nature and human life's fleeting existence: > "For a thousand years in your sight are like a day that has just gone by, or like a watch in the night."

Key Themes:​

• God's Eternal Perspective: A thousand years seem like a day to God, underscoring His timeless nature.
• Human Frailty: Contrasts human life’s brevity with God's eternal existence.
• Illustration of Timelessness: The comparison (kə·yō·wm) serves to illustrate God's different perception of time.
• Encouragement for Believers: Trust in God's eternal plan, knowing He is not bound by human time constraints.

Millennial Views​

• Pre-Tribulation: Belief that the Rapture will occur before the period of tribulation.
• Post-Millennial: Belief that Christ will return after a symbolic millennium of Christian prosperity and influence.

These views can seem contradictory, but they reflect diverse perspectives in eschatology. The 1,000-year reign mentioned in Revelation 20:1-7 is interpreted literally by some and symbolically by others, highlighting the variety of theological interpretations.

I am sorry that I can't have explained myself sufficiently. I'll try once more: I wasn't discussing the meaning of kə·yō·wm (כְּיוֹם) and yowm (יוֹם), but just saying that both Peter and Moses say that with the Lord a day is as or like a thousand years, and that they didn't say what you affirmed, that a day is a thousand years.

 

[Diamond72]

I am sorry that I can't have explained myself sufficiently. I'll try once more: I wasn't iscussing the meaning of kə·yō·wm (כְּיוֹם) and yowm (יוֹם), but just saying that both Peter and Moses say that with the Lord a day is as or like a thousand years, and that they didn't say what you affirmed, that a day is a thousand years.

You believe what you want to believe, and I will believe what I believe. We are not here to learn from other people; it is the Holy Spirit of God who is our teacher and guide.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Thanks for explaining that. I don't believe in a billions-of-years-old Creation, or in the "Gap Theory".

Amen neither do I brother.

 

[JSRG]

Interpretation of Psalm 90 by Moses
In Psalm 90:4, Moses uses the term kə·yō·wm to highlight the vast difference between God's eternal nature and human life's fleeting existence: > "For a thousand years in your sight are like a day that has just gone by, or like a watch in the night."

How could Moses have offered an interpretation of a Psalm when he would've died long before the Psalms were ever written?

 

[Diamond72]

How could Moses have offered an interpretation of a Psalm when he would've died long before the Psalms were ever written?

The Preservation of Psalms through Oral Tradition:​

When we study the Hebrew language, we learn about the rich oral tradition. These ancient texts were preserved through oral tradition and later written down by scribes. This means Moses' psalms, like other early compositions, were passed down through generations before being included in the canonical Book of Psalms.

Moses and the Psalms:​

Moses lived long before the final compilation of the Psalms. However, his contributions, such as Psalm 90, were preserved orally and eventually included in the collection. This psalm exemplifies how it was transmitted from person to person before the scribes finally wrote it down.

Poetic and Musical Nature:​

The Psalms are indeed a collection of poetic and musical compositions. Originally, they would have been performed with specific rhythms and melodies, but over time, the musical notation was not preserved in the same way as the lyrics. It's akin to having the words to a song but not recording the notes, which is a part of the oral tradition.

Vowel Points and Cantillation Marks:​

To aid in reading and recitation, vowel points (nikkud) and cantillation marks (ta'amim) were added to Hebrew scripture. These additions help readers in synagogues as they read and teach the scriptures.

Divine Oversight:​

The Bible emphasizes that God watches over His word to ensure it is properly preserved, highlighting the importance of these traditions and practices in maintaining the integrity of the scriptures.

This encapsulates the beautiful interplay between oral tradition, written preservation, and divine oversight in the transmission of the Psalms.

• Isaiah 55:11: > "So is my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it."
• Jeremiah 1:12: > "The Lord said to me, 'You have seen correctly, for I am watching to see that my word is fulfilled.'"
• Psalm 119:89: > "Your word, Lord, is eternal; it stands firm in the heavens."

 

[David Lamb]

You believe what you want to believe, and I will believe what I believe. We are not here to learn from other people; it is the Holy Spirit of God who is our teacher and guide.

I agree that the Holy Spirit is our Guide, but surely, unless our English translations are wrong, the verses you quoted about Peter and Moses don't have them saying that a day is a thousand years, but that with the Lord, a day is as or like a thousand years. That's what the Scriptures say, anyway:

“For a thousand years in Your sight Are like yesterday when it is past, And like a watch in the night.” (Ps 90:4 NKJV)

“But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that “But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.” (2Pe 3:8 NKJV)” (2Pe 3:8 NKJV)

 

[Diamond72]

I agree that the Holy Spirit is our Guide, but surely, unless our English translations are wrong, the verses you quoted about Peter and Moses don't have them saying that a day is a thousand years, but that with the Lord, a day is as or like a thousand years. That's what the Scriptures say, anyway:

Meaning: This verse emphasizes that God's perception of time is different from human understanding. It highlights the timeless nature of God, where a day and a thousand years are alike to Him.

Both verses use comparative language ("as" or "like") to convey that God's relationship with time is vastly different from ours, underscoring His eternal nature.

Not ONLY 1,000 years but with God 8 billion years is as a day. This has do with the modern term of the singularity of God when we are told God is one. All in one and one in all. So with God a billion years and a day are the same.

That is why 6 days with God is many billions of years for us.

 

[Job 33:6]

I agree that the Holy Spirit is our Guide, but surely, unless our English translations are wrong, the verses you quoted about Peter and Moses don't have them saying that a day is a thousand years, but that with the Lord, a day is as or like a thousand years. That's what the Scriptures say, anyway:

“For a thousand years in Your sight Are like yesterday when it is past, And like a watch in the night.” (Ps 90:4 NKJV)

“But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that “But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.” (2Pe 3:8 NKJV)” (2Pe 3:8 NKJV)

I'm pretty sure that YECs are the last people who should be talking about the plain reading of translations.

Genesis 1:1-3 NRSVUE
[1] When God began to create the heavens and the earth, [2] the earth was complete chaos, and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters. [3] Then God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.

Or a more middle ground translation:
Genesis 1:1-3 NRSV
[1] In the beginning when God created the heavens and the earth, [2] the earth was a formless void and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters. [3] Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.

"When God created" is "the" beginning.

Traditionally, Genesis was never even about the beginning of the universe. Rather, the beginning was always about the beginning of God's creation. Genesis 1:1-2 has the same syntax of verses such as Jeremiah 26:1 and 27:1 for example.

And this understanding was present, traditionally. Only to later largely be replaced upon the writing of the KJV.

And of course, there was no concept of "ex nihilo" creation in Moses' time. That's an anachronism from later Greco Roman times.

 

[David Lamb]

Meaning: This verse emphasizes that God's perception of time is different from human understanding. It highlights the timeless nature of God, where a day and a thousand years are alike to Him.

Both verses use comparative language ("as" or "like") to convey that God's relationship with time is vastly different from ours, underscoring His eternal nature.

Not ONLY 1,000 years but with God 8 billion years is as a day. This has do with the modern term of the singularity of God when we are told God is one. All in one and one in all. So with God a billion years and a day are the same.

That is why 6 days with God is many billions of years for us.

I agree with all that, except for the last sentence. Yes, a day with the Lord is like a thousand years, and a thousand years with the Lord are as a day, but that doesn't mean that when we read the word "day" in God's Word, we have to take it as meaning a thousand years. God didn't cause His Word to be written for His own benefit, but for mankind. The very fact that repeatedly in Genesis 1 we read that the evening and the morning were the _th day, not that a thousand evenings and mornings were the _th day! Besides, your reasoning would make six thousand years, not many billions of years, out of 6 days.