Putting events in Revelation in chronological order?

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The foolish virgins have lost their faith [not enough oil]...because they expected falsely that Jesus was to take them out of the Earth to avoid any tribulation.
I guess we could make something up to fit what we think or we could see what the word says.
Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

I don't see where it says... watch and pray that you may be accounted worthy to go through the tribulation.

Perfect example of a foolish virgin ....Jesus Himself in Matthew 24:29-31 say that He will come AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those Days ...NOT before.
Well, I certainly see where it says that he will come after the Tribulation. I'm missing the part where it says He will not come before the tribulation. Could you point out those verses for me?

I have been trying find someone that could provide proof that there is not going to be a pretribulation rapture. If you could provide those verses I would greatly appreciate it.
 
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mark kennedy

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What is your process for putting the events detailed in Revelation in chronological order?
You start with an outline of the book:

1) The Revelation of the Son of Man
2) 7 Letters to the 7 Churches
3) 7 Letters continued
4) 7 Lamps of fire (Menorah)
5) 7 Seals to be opened by the Lamb
6) 7 Seals opened, S-1 (seal one) thru S-5
7) The 144,000 sealed, the world hides from the Lamb

8) S-7 Silence, Trumpets sounded (T-1 thru T4)
9) T-5 Locusts, T-6 Euphrates
10) The Angel and the Little Book
11) The Two Witnesses clothed in sackcloth
12) The Woman, Child, Dragon
13) The Beast of the Land and the Beast of the Sea
14) 3 Angels proclaim: 144,000, Gospel, Wrath on 666

15) 7 Angels given the 7 Vials of Wrath
16) Vials of Wrath: V-1 thru V-7
17) Babylon and the Beast with 7 heads
18) The wine of the wrath of her fall
19) The wedding feast of the Lamb
20) The Dragon bound 1,000 years
21) The New Jerusalem

22) The Healing of the Nations
Seals chapters 1-7 at the beginning of the seven year tribulation, Trumpets in the middle chapters 8-14. The vials of wrath toward the end. The text is organized in this way, there is no indication of overlapping fulfillment. It's written in chronological order, there is no indication otherwise.
 
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Douggg

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I don't see where it says... watch and pray that you may be accounted worthy to go through the tribulation.
The great tribulation is triggered by the abomination of desolation idol to be setup in the temple.

The transgression of desolation, the act, triggers the Day of the Lord a little earlier. So Rapture anytime before the Day of the Lord begins.

Rapture may happen pre-70th week. But not necessarily, because the beginning of the 70th week doesn't trigger either the Day of the Lord, nor the great tribulation.
 
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iamlamad

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No, that's just you not understanding the scriptures. The SCRIPTURES tell of us a Rapture, a rapture you are blinded to but I am not. Thus Rev. 19 can not even exist without a pre-trib rapture. Just because you can't get it doesn't mean I am supposed to agree with you every time you say...BUT There s no specific mention of a rapture in this passage/phrase....THIS JUST IN: There doesn't have to be, I already understand the scriptures say there is a Rapture. I can't give you the understanding you don't have. Not my problem there brother.

You know what this is like unto? Someone telling you every time you quote Jesus and then maybe say "Jesus is in Heaven watching over us, and hearing our prayers" that you have no proof Jesus is in Heaven because nowhere in that passage where Jesus was blessing the people did it say he was in Heaven. We both know Jesus ascended to the Father, we do not need to hear it over and over in every passage to say Jesus is with the Father in Heaven !!

Likewise, we do not need to see the "Rapture passages" in every passage to understand the Church is Raptured to Heaven do we? Just go read the passages where its at, the ones you still do not understand when you read them, which is why you continue a counter argument right?


Its TROUBLES, it can be physical or mental....it can be financial etc. etc. No one cares what kind of troubles it is, the point is the 2000 year church age is TROUBLES........Thus those in Rev. 7:9 came out of TROUBLES....known as the GREAT TRIBULATION or Church Age as in 2000>7


Future tense passage !! That is the Jews in the Wilderness. The Church is Raptured to Heaven before that even happens.
Good post!
 
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iamlamad

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The great tribulation is triggered by the abomination of desolation idol to be setup in the temple.

The transgression of desolation, the act, triggers the Day of the Lord a little earlier. So Rapture anytime before the Day of the Lord begins.

Rapture may happen pre-70th week. But not necessarily, because the beginning of the 70th week doesn't trigger either the Day of the Lord, nor the great tribulation.
Sorry, but you are rearranging again. John shows us the DAY begins with the earthquake at the 6th seal. It seems you just don't believe John.

Jesus coming will trigger the dead in Christ flying up, because HE will call them up. The dead in Christ - their bodies coming together - will trigger a massive, worldwide earthquake. That is what John tells us is the start of the DAY. So we could say Jesus pretrib coming is the trigger for the DAY. Or we could say Jesus coming is the trigger for the rapture, and the rapture is the trigger for the DAY. The DAY comes as a thief - suddenly when no one is expecting - because JESUS comes as a thief.
 
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mark kennedy

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The great tribulation is triggered by the abomination of desolation idol to be setup in the temple.

The transgression of desolation, the act, triggers the Day of the Lord a little earlier. So Rapture anytime before the Day of the Lord begins.

Rapture may happen pre-70th week. But not necessarily, because the beginning of the 70th week doesn't trigger either the Day of the Lord, nor the great tribulation.
Generally the tribulation is understood as being the tribulation over three and a half years, then the abomination that causes desolation is known as the great tribulation. This is very familiar in Eschatology, it underscore a pivotal event where the Antichrist break his 'covenant with death', revealing he is an enemy of Israel and the God of Israel. He breaths out blasphemy with every breath and Israel, who cannot worship his image, repents and returns to the God of their fathers.

As for the 'day of the Lord', it's a reference to a specific day when God destroys his enemies.

“We give thanks to You, Lord God Almighty, the One who is and who was; You have taken Your great power and begun to reign. The nations were enraged, and Your wrath has come. The time has come to judge the dead, and to reward Your servants, the prophets and saints, and those who fear Your name, both small and great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth.” Then the temple of God in heaven was opened, and the ark of His covenant appeared in His temple. And there were flashes of lightning, and rumblings, and rolls of thunder, and an earthquake, and a great hailstorm. (Rev. 11:17-19)
God at this time is ruling from the Temple in heaven, after the Day of the Lord he rules from Jerusalem. In the eternal state he rules in the midst of the saints, becoming their light so that there is no need even for the sun. There is a progression of thought here.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
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Riberra

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I guess we could make something up to fit what we think or we could see what the word says.
Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
Same wording than Revelation 16:15-16 ----->WHEN JESUS WILL COME AS A THIEF ----> THE escape [what we will escape ]concern the destruction of the unrepentant sinners [those who don't believe in Jesus].

Keepeth his garnments means [keep the faith].
Revelation 16:15-16
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walked naked, and they see his shame. 16 And they gathered them together into the place which is called in Hebrew Har-magedon.



The things that shall come to pass may cause you to losing your faith [thus the need to pray always to reinforce your faith] IF you are not strong enough in Faith ---->you will not be able to stand before the Son of Man at His coming....

Knowing that the pre-tribbers have placed 99.99 % of their faith in the belief of a supposed pre-tribulation rapture preached by their messiah John Nelson Darby [repeated by their local preachers] ......well ...hmm! No comment.

When the times will begin to be more harder ....those who have placed all their faith in the supposed pre-tribulation rapture will begin to react --->

That will be the departure from the FAITH in Jesus [Apostasy]that will precede the revealing of the man of sin.


You will live and die with the wistful thinking that one day you will be wisked away ---->dream...dream..dream !!!
 
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Douggg

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Sorry, but you are rearranging again. John shows us the DAY begins with the earthquake at the 6th seal. It seems you just don't believe John.
I don't believe lamad's interpretation is what I don't believe.

The Day of the Lord and the Day of the wrath of the Lamb - not exact equivalents of each other.

The Day of the Lord is preceded by the world saying peace and safety. Then the world is plunged into turmoil by the Antichrist going into the temple, sitting claiming to be God.

Which eventually leads to persecution, martyrdom, and judgments on the earth during the great tribulation. Coming to a close when the sixth seal takes place, the Day of the wrath of the Lamb.
 
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BABerean2

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This is very familiar in Eschatology, it underscore a pivotal event where the Antichrist break his 'covenant with death', revealing he is an enemy of Israel and the God of Israel.


Daniel Chapter 9: Dr. Kelly Varner


From the 1599 Geneva Bible, which is the Bible the Pilgrims brought to America.

Dan 9:27 And he shal confirme the couenant with many for one weeke: and in the middes of the weeke he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the ouerspreading of the abominations, he shall make it desolate, euen vntill the consummation determined shalbe powred vpon the desolate.

Daniel 9:27
And he (a) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to (b) cease, (c) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

(a) By the preaching of the Gospel he affirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles.

(b) Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection.

(c) Meaning that Jerusalem and the sanctuary would be utterly destroyed because of their rebellion against God, and their idolatry: or as some read, that the plague will be so great, that they will all be astonished at them.

.
 
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Same wording than Revelation 16:15-16 ----->WHEN JESUS WILL COME AS A THIEF ----> THE escape [what we will escape ]concern the destruction of the unrepentant sinners [those who don't believe in Jesus].

Keepeth his garnments means [keep the faith].
Revelation 16:15-16
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walked naked, and they see his shame. 16 And they gathered them together into the place which is called in Hebrew Har-magedon.



The things that shall come to pass may cause you to losing your faith [thus the need to pray always to reinforce your faith] IF you are not strong enough in Faith ---->you will not be able to stand before the Son of Man at His coming....

Knowing that the pre-tribbers have placed 99.99 % of their faith in the belief of a supposed pre-tribulation rapture preached by their messiah John Nelson Darby [repeated by their local preachers] ......well ...hmm! No comment.

When the times will begin to be more harder ....those who have placed all their faith in the supposed pre-tribulation rapture will begin to react --->

That will be the departure from the FAITH in Jesus [Apostasy]that will precede the revealing of the man of sin.


You will live and die with the wistful thinking that one day you will be wisked away ---->dream...dream..dream !!!
Well, it seems something has escaped your attention.
Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

The word says we will escape ALL THESE THINGS. I'm pretty sure since it says escape all these things that what it means............ALL THESE THINGS.

And as for your earlier comment on the subject of Jesus pinpointing His coming. You said we will not know the day and hour so all is well. But the fact is if we see the sun darkened and the moon not giving light and the stars falling from heaven.........it would seem there would be plenty of time to repent. So then how will the GOODMAN not know when the thief will come if he gets a chance to see the signs first.
ANSWER: There will be a pretribulation rapture.
 
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Douggg

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Daniel Chapter 9: Dr. Kelly Varner


From the 1599 Geneva Bible, which is the Bible the Pilgrims brought to America.

Dan 9:27 And he shal confirme the couenant with many for one weeke: and in the middes of the weeke he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the ouerspreading of the abominations, he shall make it desolate, euen vntill the consummation determined shalbe powred vpon the desolate.

Daniel 9:27
And he (a) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to (b) cease, (c) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

(a) By the preaching of the Gospel he affirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles.

(b) Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection.

(c) Meaning that Jerusalem and the sanctuary would be utterly destroyed because of their rebellion against God, and their idolatry: or as some read, that the plague will be so great, that they will all be astonished at them.

.
BAB2, you are copying and pasting the same post over and over into every thread, spamming the forum.
 
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iamlamad

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Same wording than Revelation 16:15-16 ----->WHEN JESUS WILL COME AS A THIEF ----> THE escape [what we will escape ]concern the destruction of the unrepentant sinners [those who don't believe in Jesus].

Keepeth his garnments means [keep the faith].
Revelation 16:15-16
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walked naked, and they see his shame. 16 And they gathered them together into the place which is called in Hebrew Har-magedon.



The things that shall come to pass may cause you to losing your faith [thus the need to pray always to reinforce your faith] IF you are not strong enough in Faith ---->you will not be able to stand before the Son of Man at His coming....

Knowing that the pre-tribbers have placed 99.99 % of their faith in the belief of a supposed pre-tribulation rapture preached by their messiah John Nelson Darby [repeated by their local preachers] ......well ...hmm! No comment.

When the times will begin to be more harder ....those who have placed all their faith in the supposed pre-tribulation rapture will begin to react --->

That will be the departure from the FAITH in Jesus [Apostasy]that will precede the revealing of the man of sin.


You will live and die with the wistful thinking that one day you will be wisked away ---->dream...dream..dream !!!
There is another side to this coin. God has prepared an escape plan, as written in 1 Thes. 4 & 5, and 2 Thes. 2. Luke mentions it in Luk. 21:36.

It will not be pretribbers that have missed it: it will be those that are left behind because they would not believe that God wishes to deliver them from His wrath. Therefore, they will have to live through very hard times that God wishes to save them from: His wrath, Satan's wrath, no safe water to drink, no way to buy or sell anything without the mark, and in fact, God's words against them, as in the saints will be overcome.

I guess posttribbers imagine those verses are for others, not them. God has said He will TRY those on earth by the days of great tribulation coming. Do saints need to be "tried?" No, saints have given their lives to Jesus. The trying is mostly for Israel.
 
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iamlamad

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Well, it seems something has escaped your attention.
Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

The word says we will escape ALL THESE THINGS. I'm pretty sure since it says escape all these things that what it means............ALL THESE THINGS.

And as for your earlier comment on the subject of Jesus pinpointing His coming. You said we will not know the day and hour so all is well. But the fact is if we see the sun darkened and the moon not giving light and the stars falling from heaven.........it would seem there would be plenty of time to repent. So then how will the GOODMAN not know when the thief will come if he gets a chance to see the signs first.
ANSWER: There will be a pretribulation rapture.

Exactly! Just as Paul wrote, a SUDDENLY is coming - at a time when people are saying and thinking "peace and safety," a time with NO WARNING WHATSOEVER. Suddenly the dead in Christ will fly up out of the ground, and instantly followed those alive and in Christ will fly up. It is what we call the rapture event: a sudden event with no warning. Those left behind will suffer "Sudden destruction."

Those living in the light of the Gospel, will get "salvation" and be raptured out and get to "live together with Him." Those living in darkness must be left behind to suffer this sudden destruction.
 
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iamlamad

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I don't believe lamad's interpretation is what I don't believe.

The Day of the Lord and the Day of the wrath of the Lamb - not exact equivalents of each other.

The Day of the Lord is preceded by the world saying peace and safety. Then the world is plunged into turmoil by the Antichrist going into the temple, sitting claiming to be God.

Which eventually leads to persecution, martyrdom, and judgments on the earth during the great tribulation. Coming to a close when the sixth seal takes place, the Day of the wrath of the Lamb.
Let's follow the scripture - shall we? It is the "sudden destruction" that is preceding by people saying peace and safety. But the theme of that passage is the rapture. It is the rapture event that will take place suddenly and with no warning. But the rapture event will CAUSE the Sudden destruction. And preceding all of this will be HIS COMING.

This sudden destruction will BEGIN the Day of the Lord or as John wrote it, the Day of His wrath. Those "in Christ" will escape, but those living in darkness will be left behind in the sudden destruction. It will be worldwide, so there will be no escape. HOWEVER, this sudden destruction will not kill everyone. It is the beginning of God's wrath, not the end.

Following this will come the 7th seal that will allow the "book" or scroll to be unrolled to reveal:......the trumpet judgments. AT the 7th trumpet, the man of sin will enter the temple.

Readers, there is NO NEED to attempt to rearrange anything! John wrote these events in the order in which they will come - with the exception of parenthesis.

"coming to a close when the sixth seal..." NO NO NO! The 6th seal with the 7th is still preventing the book from being opened! The 6th seal will BEGIN judgment, not end it!

Why is it people cannot just take John at his word? So many imagine they must rearrange.

Axiom on Revelation:
ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given Chronology, is immediately suspect, and WILL BE proven wrong.

Therefore, just leave the 6th seal in its CONTEXT, as between the 5th (Martyrs of the church age still be added) and the 7th which will begin the 70th week of Daniel.
 
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Generally the tribulation is understood as being the tribulation over three and a half years, then the abomination that causes desolation is known as the great tribulation. This is very familiar in Eschatology, it underscore a pivotal event where the Antichrist break his 'covenant with death', revealing he is an enemy of Israel and the God of Israel. He breaths out blasphemy with every breath and Israel, who cannot worship his image, repents and returns to the God of their fathers.

As for the 'day of the Lord', it's a reference to a specific day when God destroys his enemies.

“We give thanks to You, Lord God Almighty, the One who is and who was; You have taken Your great power and begun to reign. The nations were enraged, and Your wrath has come. The time has come to judge the dead, and to reward Your servants, the prophets and saints, and those who fear Your name, both small and great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth.” Then the temple of God in heaven was opened, and the ark of His covenant appeared in His temple. And there were flashes of lightning, and rumblings, and rolls of thunder, and an earthquake, and a great hailstorm. (Rev. 11:17-19)
God at this time is ruling from the Temple in heaven, after the Day of the Lord he rules from Jerusalem. In the eternal state he rules in the midst of the saints, becoming their light so that there is no need even for the sun. There is a progression of thought here.

Grace and peace,
Mark
If we go by scripture.....well, why DON'T we go by scripture?

Jesus said, " “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken."

So it seems Jesus called the entire 70th week "the tribulation."

Notice, "those days." Many wish to call the entire last half of the week, "the great tribulation" as if it had a title. But Jesus only referred to "those days."

" 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved..."
 
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mark kennedy

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If we go by scripture.....well, why DON'T we go by scripture?

Jesus said, " “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken."

So it seems Jesus called the entire 70th week "the tribulation."

Notice, "those days." Many wish to call the entire last half of the week, "the great tribulation" as if it had a title. But Jesus only referred to "those days."

" 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved..."
Those days, what exactly is he referring to I have to wonder. The Antichrist is on the rampage and he wants to destroy Israel. Those days, are the period immediately following the abomination that causes desolation and God does shorten those days, the armies of the Antichrist fall into a pit. The Great tribulation can be a lot worse but Israel is protected while they sort out what has just happened. The armies of the Antichrist are on a rampage and would very happily kill everybody they could get their hands on.

They would destroy everyone including one another but God intervenes. It is prolonged until the kings of the east finally join him and they are destroyed at the battle of Armageddon, which is the Day of the Lord.
 
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Riberra

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There is another side to this coin. God has prepared an escape plan, as written in 1 Thes. 4 & 5, and 2 Thes. 2. Luke mentions it in Luk. 21:36.
You take Luke 21:36 out of its context ....when placed in context you get a very different picture....there is no mention that someone will be taken out of the the Earth.

So wathever the part that concerned the apostles themselves being delivered to be killed under torture ...or the other part concerning the times of of great tribulation when the Christians will be delivered under the hands of the Beast/AC [Revelation 13] before the Coming of Jesus ....God's command is given in verse 19 In your patience [endurance in Faith]possess ye your souls.

Luke 21
16 But ye shall be delivered up even by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolk, and friends; and [some] of you shall they cause to be put to death.

17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.

18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.

19 In your patience possess ye your souls.

24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;

30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.

31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

The Day mentioned in Verse 34 is the Day of the Coming of Jesus to destroy the sinners [all those who will have taken the mark ]who will be gathered at Armageddon along the armies of the World ----->Revelation 16:15-16 --- Revelation 19:11-21

-------------------------------
Hint:
If Jesus had the intention to take someone out of the Earth to avoid tribulation be it small or great He would not have said:
John 17:15
I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
 
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BABerean2

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God has prepared an escape plan


Based on thousands of pages of commentary and sermons written at the time of the Revolutionary War, American preachers did not find this "escape plan".

They taught that Christ would gather His New Covenant Church at the beginning of His Second Coming.



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Riberra

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Well, it seems something has escaped your attention.
Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

The word says we will escape ALL THESE THINGS. I'm pretty sure since it says escape all these things that what it means............ALL THESE THINGS.
See post #318 about what you have missed by taking Luke 21:36 out of its original context.

In another post you wanted the Biblical PROOF that Jesus will not remove the believers out of the Earth to avoid tribulation ----->be it small or Great.
Here it is
John 17:15
I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

Luke 21:16-19 about tribulation time -then- ---->or future.

16 But ye shall be delivered up even by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolk, and friends; and [some] of you shall they cause to be put to death.

17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.

18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.

19 In your patience [endurance in Faith] possess ye your SOULS.


Same wording that Matthew 24:9-13 about the End Times or any tribulation time.
Matthew 24:9-13
9 Then shall they deliver you up unto tribulation, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all the nations for my name's sake.

10 And then shall many stumble, and shall deliver up one another, and shall hate one another.

11 And many false prophets shall arise, and shall lead many astray.

12 And because iniquity shall be multiplied, the love of the many shall wax cold.

13 But he that ENDURETH TO THE END, the same shall be saved.
 
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