Putting events in Revelation in chronological order?

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[Andy centek]

-Revelation 11:15 is The 7 Th Trumpet......Revelation 16:14-17 the 7Th VIAL of the WRATH of God.
-42 months of unpleasant actions against the Christians who will refuse to take the mark [Revelation 13] will happen between the 7 Th Trumpet and the 7Th Vial.

 

[Andy centek]

Hi Riberra:

First you say: That Rev 16:15-16, and Rev 19, is just a cue for those who watched. Who are the, They? Then you say that these are the same event.

Secondly you say: Then You say that many think that Jesus will come before the 7th. Vail.

And thirdly you say: Those who have taken the time to read further than Rev 11:15 know that when the armies will be gathered at Armageddon, that means Jesus is coming as a thief will be near.

Let me start by addressing Rev 16:15-16: Behold I come as a thief. The fact that they are attached to Moses makes Them Jews. Therefore again it points to Revelation being a writing for the Jews and not everyone, everywhere. You say this is the same event as Rev19 where the armies are joined together. That is not what Revelation states!

Rev 16:15-16 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watches,and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. And
He gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

Starting with Rev 19:1 we have the following.

Rev 19:1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honor, and power, unto the Lord our God:

Here in Rev 19 is the results of Rev 16, not the same thing. There is much that occurs between verses in this Book of Revelation. To make a jump to a conclusion does not work!

What garments are being talked of here? It is the garments of salvation; the robes of white. So salvation has taken place within these verses; and that which was required for it.

Then you make this statement: Those who have taken the time to read further than Rev 11:15 know that when the armies will begin to be gathered at Armageddon. I assume You have done that? Then: that means that Jesus Coming as a thief will be near.

If these in Revelation have garments of salvation, they could have only gotten them through Jesus Christ. That means that they already were spiritually saved.

Consider the following scripture that relate to salvation of the Jews.

Math_16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Math_24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Math_26:64 Jesus saith unto him, You have said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall You see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Mark_13:26 And then shall They see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

Mark_14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and You shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Luke_21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

Now if the disciples were to see Him coming in their time, how is it that people say it will be in this Age?

I hope this helps you see how this all came together in Their time.

Andy Centek

 

[Riberra]

You might be able to make that work if it were not for the "time of the judgment of the dead", with rewards for some and destruction for others in Revelation 11:18. (See also John 5:27-30)

Cut Revelation 11:18 out of your Bible, and I think your viewpoint will be more convincing.

The Judgment of the DEAD mentioned in Revelation 11:18 concern those who will be DEAD BEFORE the 42 months reign of the Beast .

While
-The Judgment of those who will be alive DURING the 42 months reign of the Beast will depend upon their choice of taking the mark and worship the Beast or NOT as pointed out in Revelation 14.

You can try as hard than you can ,the 42 months reign of the Beast mentioned in [Revelation 13] ,is set to happen before the Return of Jesus as a thief mentioned in Revelation 16:14-17.

 

[Riberra]

Hi Riberra:

First you say: That Rev 16:15-16, and Rev 19, is just a cue for those who watched. Who are the, They? Then you say that these are the same event.

The call for the gathering of the armies will begin at the 6 Th VIAL Revelation 16:12-14...it will take a certain amount of time before they all arrive at Armageddon about 30 to 40 days .
That is what i am talking about---->when the armies will begin to be gathered for the Armageddon battle we will know that the Day that Jesus will come as a thief will be near Revelation 16:13-17

Secondly you say: Then You say that many think that Jesus will come before the 7th. Vail.

-I make reference to those who believe that Jesus will come Pre-TrIb.
-I make refrence to those like BAB who believe that everything is finished at the 7 Th Trumpet in Revelation 11:15-18 [see my reply post #284]

And thirdly you say: Those who have taken the time to read further than Rev 11:15 know that when the armies will be gathered at Armageddon, that means Jesus is coming as a thief will be near.

Let me start by addressing Rev 16:15-16: Behold I come as a thief. The fact that they are attached to Moses makes Them Jews. Therefore again it points to Revelation being a writing for the Jews and not everyone, everywhere.

-The Book Of Revelation is specifically addressed to the Christians ....in particular those who will be alive during those times.

-The Jews living in Israel don't read the Bible thus don't read the Book of Revelation.

-Judaism is the religion of the Jews living in the Modern Israel, is based upon the Babylonian Talmud.

You say this is the same event as Rev19 where the armies are joined together. That is not what Revelation states!

Revelation 19:11-21 is what i am talking about ---->the battle of Armageddon.

 

[Riberra]

No that just you not understanding the scriptures. The SCRIPTURES tell of us a Rapture, a rapture you are blinded to but I am not. Thus Rev. 19 can not even exist without a pre-trib rapture. Just because you can't get it doesn't mean I am supposed to agree with you every time you say...BUT There s no specific mention of a rapture in this passage/phrase....THIS JUST IN: There doesn't have to be, I already understand the scriptures say there is a Rapture. I can't give you the understanding you don't have. Not my problem there brother.

You can dream that Jesus will come pre-trib to take you out of the Earth before the tribulation ....that is just not going to happen.

Read Revelation 2 and Revelation 3 who give the command ------to overcome ... ...OVERCOME until you DIE, that mean that nobody will be taken to Heaven while they are alive....

example
Revelation 3:5
5 He that overcometh shall thus be arrayed in white garments; and I will in no wise blot his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Revelation 3:12-13
12 He that overcometh, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go out thence no more: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God, and mine own new name.

13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches.

Revelation 21:7-8 [New Earth ---New Jerusalem coming down out of Heaven]
7 He that overcometh shall inherit these things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

8 But for the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, their part [shall be] in the lake that burneth with fire and brimstone; which is the second death.

 

[BABerean2]

You can try as hard than you can ,the 42 months reign of the Beast mentioned in [Revelation 13] ,is set to happen before the Return of Jesus as a thief mentioned in Revelation 16:14-17.

You are correct, and it ends at Revelation 11:15-18, and the end of chapter 6, and at the "harvest" of chapter 14, and in Revelation 16:15-16, and in chapter 19.

They are all visions of the same Second Coming event.

.

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[Douggg]

-Judaism is the religion of the Jews living in the Modern Israel, is based upon the Babylonian Talmud.

In part.

The call for the gathering of the armies will begin at the 6 Th VIAL Revelation 16:12-14...it will take a certain amount of time before they all arrive at Armageddon about 30 to 40 days .
That is what i am talking about---->when the armies will begin to be gathered for the Armageddon battle we will know that the Day that Jesus will come as a thief will be near Revelation 16:13-17

I understand your rationale. But the timing of the rapture taking place then, negates the Lord's promise in Luke 21:34-36 to escape the time of testing that will come upon the whole world. A reference to the great tribulation.

Instead of being the rapture in Revelelation 16, I think it is talking about Daniel 12:12, blessed are those who remain (faithful) to the 1335th day. That is not to take the mark, nor the number, nor the name, nor worship the beast, nor his image. To remain faithful to Jesus - them who become Christians after the church is gone before the great tribulation begins.

The appearance of Jesus in heaven, when the cosmos parts, in Revelation 6 the sixth seal, will be completely unexpected by the evil men of the world. That is the like a thief saying.

In similitude in the bible, there is another saying that applies for difference instances and times. Look up the term - "every man under his own fig tree". It applied back during Solomon's reign. And it will apply during the messianic age. Zechariah 3:10. Micah 4:4.

 

[Revealing Times]

First you say: That Rev 16:15-16, and Rev 19, is just a cue for those who watched. Who are the, They? Then you say that these are the same event.

He is right about Rev. 16 and Rev. 19 being the same event, at least the 7th Vial and the Marriage Supper battle. Rev. 14 is also the same even where it says the blood comes up to the horses bridles. Rev. 18 is all 21 of Gods Judgments hitting the World (Babylon). So Revelation is not in order.

Secondly you say: Then You say that many think that Jesus will come before the 7th. Vail.

And thirdly you say: Those who have taken the time to read further than Rev 11:15 know that when the armies will be gathered at Armageddon, that means Jesus is coming as a thief will be near.

1. But he doesn't come before the 7th vial. Many say Jesus ad God are not one in spirit but they are.

2. I don't buy the "thief in the night" bit, John took much of Revelation from the Old Testament, so I would imagine he used a lot of Jesus' saying in like manner to insert where he though appropriate. Sine Jesus/God mainly taught Paul about the Rapture, I think John felt like this was the proper place to insert that phrase because Jesus is coming back again. But I think that phrase was meant to show an overall picture of coming tribulation/death/damnation once the Rapture gas happened. In other words the rains will have started once the Rapture happens and there is no turning back. Those in this period will either serve God and die or follow the Anti-Christ.

 

[Revealing Times]

You can dream that Jesus will come pre-trib to take you out of the Earth before the tribulation ....that is just not going to happen.

Read Revelation 2 and Revelation 3 who give the command ------to overcome ... ...OVERCOME until you DIE, that mean that nobody will be taken to Heaven while they are alive....

And you can preach different from now until the end and you will not change the facts brother.

Posting scriptures doesn't make one right. I have never understood that thought process.

 

[Riberra]

And you can preach different from now until the end and you will not change the facts brother.

Posting scriptures doesn't make one right. I have never understood that thought process.

That thought process is based on this:
Matthew 24:35
Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.


That means that what is WRITTEN will be fulfilled ....not what you think is written between the lines.

If the author had the intention to take a group out of the Earth while they are ALIVE He would had written it ....and you know what ---->the 144,000 is that group --->it is written that they ave been purchased OUT OF THE EARTH that they have been redeemed from among men...Revelation 14.

Revelation 14:1-5
1 And I saw, and behold, the Lamb standing on the mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty and four thousand, having his name, and the name of his Father, written on their foreheads.

2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and the voice which I heard [was] as [the voice] of harpers harping with their harps: 3 and they sing as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four living creatures and the elders: and no man could learn the song save the hundred and forty and four thousand, [even] they that had been purchased out of the earth.

4 These are they that were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These [are] they that follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were purchased from among men, [to be] the firstfruits unto God and unto the Lamb.

5 And in their mouth was found no lie: they are without blemish.

 

[Choose Wisely]

You can dream that Jesus will come pre-trib to take you out of the Earth before the tribulation ....that is just not going to happen.

Read Revelation 2 and Revelation 3 who give the command ------to overcome ... ...OVERCOME until you DIE, that mean that nobody will be taken to Heaven while they are alive....

example
Revelation 3:5
5 He that overcometh shall thus be arrayed in white garments; and I will in no wise blot his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Revelation 3:12-13
12 He that overcometh, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go out thence no more: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God, and mine own new name.

13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches.

Revelation 21:7-8 [New Earth ---New Jerusalem coming down out of Heaven]
7 He that overcometh shall inherit these things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

8 But for the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, their part [shall be] in the lake that burneth with fire and brimstone; which is the second death.

Matthew 25
1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

Can you provide any proof that there will not be a pretribulation rapture? Is there any proof at all?

 

[Riberra]

Matthew 25
1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

Can you provide any proof that there will not be a pretribulation rapture? Is there any proof at all?

If you read the parable of the 10 virgins correctly [v 5,v 6]you will notice that the foolish virgins expected that the bridegroom was to come early ...exactly like those who believe that Jesus will come pre-trib .

-Jesus in Matthew 24:29-31 tell us clearly when He will Come....hint: that will NOT be pre-trib.


Matthew 24:29-31
29 But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man COMING ON THE CLOUDS of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send forth his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Hint:
Extra oil is used to light a lamp more longer...

 

[Choose Wisely]

If you read the parable of the 10 virgins correctly [v 5,v 6]you will notice that the foolish virgins expected that the bridegroom was to come early ...exactly like those who believe that Jesus will come pre-trib ..

Wow, you surely twisted that around. The difference between the wise and foolish is that the wise brought oil. They had prepared for his coming........and when he came they were ready.

Matt 25
3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.

-Jesus in Matthew 24:29-31 tell us clearly when He will Come....hint: that will NOT be pre-trib.

Matthew 24:29-31
29 But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man COMING ON THE CLOUDS of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send forth his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
.

So you say -Jesus in Matthew 24:29-31 tell us clearly when He will Come....hint: that will NOT be pre-trib.

So my question is......If Jesus pinpoints His coming in Matt 24:29-31 like you say He does, why does he say that the GOODMAN will not know when he is coming, and then says in such an hour as you think not, the son of man cometh. You have a pretty big problem with that logic.

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Hint:
Extra oil is used to light a lamp more longer...

.

Hint:
The wise virgins knew the Lord. The Lord's response to the foolish virgins...........

10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

Do you have just one shred of evidence that there will not be a pretribulation rapture?

 

[Riberra]

Wow, you surely twisted that around. The difference between the wise and foolish is that the wise brought oil. They had prepared for his coming........and when he came they were ready.

Matt 25
3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.

The foolish virgins took no oil with them ..because they expected that Jesus was to come early in the day ....Surprise the bridegroom came at midnight.

Do you understand that if you expect Jesus to come before the tribulation and in the facts Jesus will come only AFTER the tribulation of those days...you will be caught off guard exactly like the foolish virgins.

So you say -Jesus in Matthew 24:29-31 tell us clearly when He will Come....hint: that will NOT be pre-trib.

So my question is......If Jesus pinpoints His coming in Matt 24:29-31 like you say He does, why does he say that the GOODMAN will not know when he is coming, and then says in such an hour as you think not, the son of man cometh. You have a pretty big problem with that logic.

Even with the information provided in Matthew 24:29-31 that Jesus will come only AFTER the Tribulation of those days....you have no way to know the precise day and hour of his coming ...

Even with the information given in Revelation 16:13-17 of Jesus Coming as a Thief when the armies will all be gathered at Armageddon ...there is no way to know the precise day and hour.

Do you see the mention of BLESSED is he that WATCHED mentioned in Revelation 16:14-16
14 for they are spirits of demons, working signs; which go forth unto the kings of the whole world, to gather them together unto the war of the great day of God, the Almighty.

15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walked naked, and they see his shame. 16 And they gathered them together into the place which is called in Hebrew Har-magedon.

 

[Choose Wisely]

The foolish virgins took no oil with them ..because they expected that Jesus was to come early in the day ....Surprise the bridegroom came at midnight.

Do you understand that if you expect Jesus to come before the tribulation and in the fact Jesus will come only AFTER the tribulation ...you will be caught off guard exactly like the foolish virgins.

How about we go by what the scripture says. I think the problem is that the foolish virgins knew him not.......just like it says.

Even with the information provided in Matthew 24:29-31 that Jesus will come only AFTER the Tribulation....you have no way to know the precise day and hour of his coming ...

Even with the information given in Revelation 16:13-17 of Jesus coming as a thief ...there is no way to know the precise day and hour.

If you are wise enough to realize that Matt 24 lines up with the seals we can see that the famines came at the 3rd seal so we know He is coming before that. We can also realize that Noah was in the ark 7 days before the flood.
Matt 24
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

 

[Riberra]

How about we go by what the scripture says. I think the problem is that the foolish virgins knew him not.......just like it says.

The foolish virgins have lost their faith [not enough oil]...because they expected falsely that Jesus was to take them out of the Earth to avoid any tribulation.

If you are wise enough to realize that Matt 24 lines up with the seals we can see that the famines came at the 3rd seal so we know He is coming before that.

Perfect example of a foolish virgin ....Jesus Himself in Matthew 24:29-31 say that He will come AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those Days ...NOT before.