Purgatory

parousia70

Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow
Supporter
Feb 24, 2002
15,533
4,826
57
Oregon
✟793,718.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I am sorry but I can not accept your idea.

It's not my idea friend. Its scripture.

The "Torments " side of Sheol is still full but Paradise is now empty.

All you have to support this speculation, is speculation itself.
You have no scripture to support such a claim.
Not even one.


The author seems to be in agreement with me, and in opposition to you.

You say:

"Paradise was emptied by Christ and those spirits went with Christ to heaven at His assention which is what we see in Ephesians 4:8 makes this clear"

While the Author of your link says the opposite:

"The verse is very clear—both in English and in Greek. It doesn’t mean that Christ freed those who were in prison, those who were captive."

 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

bbbbbbb

Well-Known Member
Jun 9, 2015
27,803
13,115
72
✟362,269.00
Faith
Non-Denom
A discussion of Paradise might be in order here, but on another thread, hopefully. Given the fact that it is only named twice in the Bible has led to a huge range of beliefs concerning it.

That said, at least Paradise is a biblically based concept, unlike the Roman Catholic idea of Purgatory which, unfortunately, is never mentioned even once in the Bible.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Major1
Upvote 0

parousia70

Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow
Supporter
Feb 24, 2002
15,533
4,826
57
Oregon
✟793,718.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
A discussion of Paradise might be in order here, but on another thread
I’m pretty sure this thread can handle the discussion of any and all synonyms or cross language translations of the word purgatory. Hades -Sheol - Enfers- Infierno -Purgatorio -Paradise - Tomato - TomaH-to, etc....

That said, at least Paradise is a biblically based concept, unlike the Roman Catholic idea of Purgatory which, unfortunately, is never mentioned even once in the Bible.

I’m curious why you would find that unfortunate? But that’s just an aside.

“The Roman Catholic idea of purgatory”, Similar to the Roman catholic idea of the Trinity, is absolutely a biblical concept, regardless if the word itself is mentioned or not. Aside from Maccabees, the concept is most certainly attested in passages such as Matthew 5:23-26 and Luke 12:54-59, Even though I expect you would find that unfortunate.
 
Upvote 0

bbbbbbb

Well-Known Member
Jun 9, 2015
27,803
13,115
72
✟362,269.00
Faith
Non-Denom
I’m pretty sure this thread can handle the discussion of any and all synonyms or cross language translations of the word purgatory. Hades -Sheol - Enfers- Infierno -Purgatorio -Paradise - Tomato - TomaH-to, etc....

I’m curious why you would find that unfortunate? But that’s just an aside.

“The Roman Catholic idea of purgatory”, Similar to the Roman catholic idea of the Trinity, is absolutely a biblical concept, regardless if the word itself is mentioned or not. Aside from Maccabees, the concept is most certainly attested in passages such as Matthew 5:23-26 and Luke 12:54-59, Even though I expect you would find that unfortunate.

The problem, of course, is that there are no synonyms whatsoever in the Bible for the RCC word "Purgatory". In fact, if it were so, then at least one of the many translations of the Bible in official Catholic editions would have used "Purgatory" rather than another synonym. However, no translator to date has done so. Purgatory remains an exceedingly amorphous (in its current iteration) uniquely RCC doctrine.

For your benefit, I will briefly examine those words which you find to be synonyms for Purgatory.

Hades - Hades - Wikipedia As you can see there is absolutely no relationship between the Greek concept of Hades to Purgatory.

Infierno - a Latin word which has no corresponding Greek synonym in the New Testament, other than the Lake of Fire (Inferno) in Revelation 20 which, most assuredly does not correspond with the RCC doctrine of Purgatory.

Purgatorio - the Latin word for Purgato
ry which is not found in the Latin Vulgate translation of the Bible.

Paradise - from Merriam Webster
Paradise ultimately comes from an Iranian word that the Greeks modified into paradeisos, meaning "enclosed park." In Hellenistic Greek, "paradeisos" was also used in the Septuagint - an early Greek translation of Jewish scriptures - in reference to the Garden of Eden. Early Christian writers also used "paradeisos" for both Heaven and for the place where righteous souls await resurrection. These senses of "paradeisos" entered into Late Latin as paradisus, and then into Anglo-French (and later, Middle English) as "paradis." Though originally used in theological senses in English, "paradise" has also come to refer to more earthly states and places of delight as well.
I rather doubt that many Catholics would agree that Purgatory is a place of delight, akin to an enclosed park.

I cannot find any definition of "tomato" such as you suggest. Perhaps you can locate it for me. Thank you.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Major1
Upvote 0

Major1

Well-Known Member
Sep 17, 2016
10,551
2,837
Deland, Florida
✟203,785.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
It's not my idea friend. Its scripture.



All you have to support this speculation, is speculation itself.
You have no scripture to support such a claim.
Not even one.



The author seems to be in agreement with me, and in opposition to you.

You say:

"Paradise was emptied by Christ and those spirits went with Christ to heaven at His assention which is what we see in Ephesians 4:8 makes this clear"

While the Author of your link says the opposite:

"The verse is very clear—both in English and in Greek. It doesn’t mean that Christ freed those who were in prison, those who were captive."
You are kidding me....right???

You did read the post where I showed you from Scripture in Luke 16.

God tells us in Luke 16 that "TORMENTS" is where the rich man went when he died.
God tells us that Lazarus went to the "PARADISE" side of Sheol when he died.

YOU did read that from the Scriptures.....RIGHT??????

Ephesians 4, Verses 7-10
¶“7But each one of us was given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. 8Therefore God says, ‘When he ascended on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts to men.’ 9But this, ‘He ascended’ —didn't he also first descend into the lower parts of the earth? 10He who descended is the one who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things”.

With just a little Bible study we can find out who is right here and who is wrong....

The statement "he led captivity captive" (Ephesians 4:8) is a prophecy of redemption.

"All have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Romans 3:23-24).

Jesus said, "For the Son of Man also came not to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many" (Mark 10:45). He paid the price to release people from captivity in sin, and to purchase them as his own slaves to righteousness. Thus "he led captivity captive".

So Christ "led captivity captive" (Ephesians 4:8) in that God "rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins" (Colossians 1:12-14).

When we become the captive slaves of Jesus Christ, we find liberty in that captivity. This is a paradox, but not a contradiction, because Christ’s slaves are "sons of God... heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ" (Romans 8:14-17).

Then to validate this we see in Matthew 27:52-53 as providing the host who ascended with Jesus.
"Many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many".
 
  • Winner
Reactions: Ngodap
Upvote 0

bbbbbbb

Well-Known Member
Jun 9, 2015
27,803
13,115
72
✟362,269.00
Faith
Non-Denom
You are kidding me....right???

You did read the post where I showed you from Scripture in Luke 16.

God tells us in Luke 16 that "TORMENTS" is where the rich man went when he died.
God tells us that Lazarus went to the "PARADISE" side of Sheol when he died.

YOU did read that from the Scriptures.....RIGHT??????

Ephesians 4, Verses 7-10
¶“7But each one of us was given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. 8Therefore God says, ‘When he ascended on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts to men.’ 9But this, ‘He ascended’ —didn't he also first descend into the lower parts of the earth? 10He who descended is the one who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things”.

With just a little Bible study we can find out who is right here and who is wrong....

The statement "he led captivity captive" (Ephesians 4:8) is a prophecy of redemption.

"All have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Romans 3:23-24).

Jesus said, "For the Son of Man also came not to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many" (Mark 10:45). He paid the price to release people from captivity in sin, and to purchase them as his own slaves to righteousness. Thus "he led captivity captive".

So Christ "led captivity captive" (Ephesians 4:8) in that God "rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins" (Colossians 1:12-14).

When we become the captive slaves of Jesus Christ, we find liberty in that captivity. This is a paradox, but not a contradiction, because Christ’s slaves are "sons of God... heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ" (Romans 8:14-17).

Then to validate this we see in Matthew 27:52-53 as providing the host who ascended with Jesus.
"Many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many".

Out of curiosity, do you believe that the bodies of the saints are now in Purgatory? If so, then it does make some sense in light of the Matthew passage that their bodies came out of the tombs (not Purgatory, however, but tombs). Is sleeping the same as suffering conscious punishment for one's venial sins?
 
Upvote 0

Major1

Well-Known Member
Sep 17, 2016
10,551
2,837
Deland, Florida
✟203,785.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Out of curiosity, do you believe that the bodies of the saints are now in Purgatory? If so, then it does make some sense in light of the Matthew passage that their bodies came out of the tombs (not Purgatory, however, but tombs). Is sleeping the same as suffering conscious punishment for one's venial sins?

Since I do not believe that there is such a thing as Purgatory, then NO.
 
Upvote 0

Major1

Well-Known Member
Sep 17, 2016
10,551
2,837
Deland, Florida
✟203,785.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I’m pretty sure this thread can handle the discussion of any and all synonyms or cross language translations of the word purgatory. Hades -Sheol - Enfers- Infierno -Purgatorio -Paradise - Tomato - TomaH-to, etc....



I’m curious why you would find that unfortunate? But that’s just an aside.

“The Roman Catholic idea of purgatory”, Similar to the Roman catholic idea of the Trinity, is absolutely a biblical concept, regardless if the word itself is mentioned or not. Aside from Maccabees, the concept is most certainly attested in passages such as Matthew 5:23-26 and Luke 12:54-59, Even though I expect you would find that unfortunate.

WRONG!

There is NO.....NONE....ZERO Scriptures to support Purgatory my friend.

The "Word" and even the "Concept" is alian to the Bible.

Maccabees is an Occultist production of nonsense and can not even be breathed in the same paragraph as the Bible.
 
Upvote 0

Valletta

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2020
7,956
2,883
Minnesota
✟207,861.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
WRONG!

There is NO.....NONE....ZERO Scriptures to support Purgatory my friend.

The "Word" and even the "Concept" is alian to the Bible.

Maccabees is an Occultist production of nonsense and can not even be breathed in the same paragraph as the Bible.
God does not dabble in the occult and God is not a magician. God does not perform magic tricks for your edification. From the time the Catholic Church chose the 73 books of the Bible in the late 300s until the "reformation" all Bibles contained the same 73 books in the very same order. In the King James the Maccabees books were not physically removed from within the Bible until the 1800s.
2 Mac 12:42-46
Turning to supplication, they prayed that the sinful deed might be fully blotted out. The noble Judas warned the soldiers to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen. He then took up a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice. In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin.
Isaiah 6:5-7
Then I (Isaiah) said, "Woe is me, I am doomed! For I am a man of unclean lips, living among a people of unclean lips; yet my eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts!" Then one of the seraphim flew to me, holding an ember which he had taken with tongs from the altar. He touched my mouth with it. "See," he said, "now that this has touched your lips, your wickedness is removed, your sin purged."
1 Cor 3:11-15
For no one can lay a foundation other than the one that is there, namely, Jesus Christ. If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, the work of each will come to light, for the Day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire (itself) will test the quality of each one's work. If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. But if someone's work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire.
 
  • Haha
Reactions: Ngodap
Upvote 0

bbbbbbb

Well-Known Member
Jun 9, 2015
27,803
13,115
72
✟362,269.00
Faith
Non-Denom
God does not dabble in the occult and God is not a magician. God does not perform magic tricks for your edification. From the time the Catholic Church chose the 73 books of the Bible in the late 300s until the "reformation" all Bibles contained the same 73 books in the very same order. In the King James the Maccabees books were not physically removed from within the Bible until the 1800s.
2 Mac 12:42-46
Turning to supplication, they prayed that the sinful deed might be fully blotted out. The noble Judas warned the soldiers to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen. He then took up a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice. In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin.
Isaiah 6:5-7
Then I (Isaiah) said, "Woe is me, I am doomed! For I am a man of unclean lips, living among a people of unclean lips; yet my eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts!" Then one of the seraphim flew to me, holding an ember which he had taken with tongs from the altar. He touched my mouth with it. "See," he said, "now that this has touched your lips, your wickedness is removed, your sin purged."
1 Cor 3:11-15
For no one can lay a foundation other than the one that is there, namely, Jesus Christ. If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, the work of each will come to light, for the Day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire (itself) will test the quality of each one's work. If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. But if someone's work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire.

Hmmm. You seem to believe that your denomination invented the Bible. Oddly enough, your canon of scripture was not determined until the Council of Trent which was not an ecumenical council of the Church, but simply a denominational conclave which was called to refute Martin Luther specifically and Protestants in general.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Major1
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

parousia70

Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow
Supporter
Feb 24, 2002
15,533
4,826
57
Oregon
✟793,718.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
For your benefit, I will briefly examine those words which you find to be synonyms for Purgatory.

Hades - Hades - Wikipedia As you can see there is absolutely no relationship between the Greek concept of Hades to Purgatory.

Infierno - a Latin word which has no corresponding Greek synonym in the New Testament, other than the Lake of Fire (Inferno) in Revelation 20 which, most assuredly does not correspond with the RCC doctrine of Purgatory.

Acts 2:27, NKJ English
For You will not leave my soul in Hades, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.

Acts 2:27 Latin Vulgate
quoniam non derelinques animam meam in inferno neque dabis Sanctum tuum videre corruptionem

Matthew 11:23 NKJV English
And you, Capernaum, who are exalted to heaven, will be brought down to Hades; for if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.

Matthew 11:23 Latin Vulgate

et tu Capharnaum numquid usque in caelum exaltaberis usque in infernum descendes quia si in Sodomis factae fuissent virtutes quae factae sunt in te forte mansissent usque in hunc diem

Acts 2:31 NKJV English

he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption.

Acts 2:31 Latin Vulgate

providens locutus est de resurrectione Christi quia neque derelictus est in inferno neque caro eius vidit corruptionem

For your Benefit :)
 
Upvote 0

Major1

Well-Known Member
Sep 17, 2016
10,551
2,837
Deland, Florida
✟203,785.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
God does not dabble in the occult and God is not a magician. God does not perform magic tricks for your edification. From the time the Catholic Church chose the 73 books of the Bible in the late 300s until the "reformation" all Bibles contained the same 73 books in the very same order. In the King James the Maccabees books were not physically removed from within the Bible until the 1800s.
2 Mac 12:42-46
Turning to supplication, they prayed that the sinful deed might be fully blotted out. The noble Judas warned the soldiers to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen. He then took up a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice. In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin.
Isaiah 6:5-7
Then I (Isaiah) said, "Woe is me, I am doomed! For I am a man of unclean lips, living among a people of unclean lips; yet my eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts!" Then one of the seraphim flew to me, holding an ember which he had taken with tongs from the altar. He touched my mouth with it. "See," he said, "now that this has touched your lips, your wickedness is removed, your sin purged."
1 Cor 3:11-15
For no one can lay a foundation other than the one that is there, namely, Jesus Christ. If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, the work of each will come to light, for the Day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire (itself) will test the quality of each one's work. If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. But if someone's work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire.

You are correct and that is why the Apocrypha is not found in the Bible.

Do YOU know why the Apocrypha was removed??? YOU should know! Do the work!

The apocrypha books also support the use of magic and other occultic practices which cannot be attributed to God.

None of the apocryphal writers laid claim to inspiration.

Neither Jesus nor the apostles ever quoted from the Apocrypha.

Jesus referenced the Jewish Old Testament canon from the beginning to the end and did not include the Apocrypha in his reference. “From the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who perished between the altar and the house of God; yes, I tell you, it shall be charged against this generation,” (Luke 11:51).

There are over 260 quotations of the Old Testament in the New Testament and not one of them is from these books.

Athanasius, bishop of Alexandria (where the Septuagent was translated), did not include the Apocrypha as part of the Old Testament canon. In a letter, Athanasius listed the 22 Old Testament books and the 27 canonical books of the New Testament. He added:

"These are the fountains of salvation, that they who thirst may be satisfied with the living words they contain. In these ALONE (my emphasis) is proclaimed the doctrine of godliness." (Philip Schaff and Henry Wace, "Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers," Second Series, vol. IV, St. Athanasius, "Letter 39.6" (Grand Rapids:Eerdmans, 1953), p. 552)


 
Upvote 0

BNR32FAN

He’s a Way of life
Supporter
Aug 11, 2017
22,111
7,243
Dallas
✟873,878.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
2 Maccabees 12:45 records an atonement made for the dead. It does not specifically say where the dead were, only that an atonement was made for them.

Prayers for the dead can be taken into consideration before they died since God is both omniscient and omnipresent.
 
  • Haha
Reactions: Ngodap
Upvote 0

Major1

Well-Known Member
Sep 17, 2016
10,551
2,837
Deland, Florida
✟203,785.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Acts 2:27, NKJ English
For You will not leave my soul in Hades, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.

Acts 2:27 Latin Vulgate
quoniam non derelinques animam meam in inferno neque dabis Sanctum tuum videre corruptionem

Matthew 11:23 NKJV English
And you, Capernaum, who are exalted to heaven, will be brought down to Hades; for if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.

Matthew 11:23 Latin Vulgate

et tu Capharnaum numquid usque in caelum exaltaberis usque in infernum descendes quia si in Sodomis factae fuissent virtutes quae factae sunt in te forte mansissent usque in hunc diem

Acts 2:31 NKJV English

he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption.

Acts 2:31 Latin Vulgate

providens locutus est de resurrectione Christi quia neque derelictus est in inferno neque caro eius vidit corruptionem

For your Benefit :)

IN ITS original languages, the Bible uses the Hebrew word sheʼohlʹ

IN ITS original language, the bible uses its Greek equivalent haiʹdes.

Both refer to the same place, one of torment!

Example of witchcraft...........

"If the Devil, or an evil spirit troubles anyone, they can be driven away by making a smoke of the heart, liver, and gall of a fish...and the Devil will smell it, and flee away, and never come again anymore."
(Tobit 6:5-8. Ronald Knox translation)
 
Upvote 0

Major1

Well-Known Member
Sep 17, 2016
10,551
2,837
Deland, Florida
✟203,785.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Prayers for the dead can be taken into consideration before they died since God is both omniscient and omnipresent.

Prayers before some dies is not a prayer for the dead, now is it.

THINK!
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

parousia70

Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow
Supporter
Feb 24, 2002
15,533
4,826
57
Oregon
✟793,718.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
You are kidding me....right???
Nope. Dead Serious.

With just a little Bible study we can find out who is right here and who is wrong....
On that point I wholeheartedly agree.

The statement "he led captivity captive" (Ephesians 4:8) is a prophecy of redemption.

Rather it is a statement of then present/Past Victory. It is not a prophesy of some future, yet to be realized event.

"All have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Romans 3:23-24).
Nice verse.

Jesus said, "For the Son of Man also came not to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many" (Mark 10:45). He paid the price to release people from captivity in sin, and to purchase them as his own slaves to righteousness. Thus "He led captivity captive".

You are speculating, and fabricating a definition for "he lead captivity captive" that is polar opposite to Direct Scriptural teaching on what that phrase means.
I detailed this previously but will be happy to provide a refresher for our readers:

The "captivity" that a triumphant King would "lead captive" was his bound enemies. The victorious king would lead a parade through town, marching his bound prisoners in a public display to shame them and gloat over them (Col 1:15 uses this concept too). That is why bible expositors discussing Eph 4:8 often point to the broken dominion of the enemies Satan (1 Jn 3:8; Col 1:15), sin (Rom 6:14), and death (Rom 6:9 ) -- these were the "captivity" that Christ led away as his captives. So the "captivity" one leads captive are one's enemies who have been triumphed over. This notion is also the sense of Psalm 68:17-18 concerning the exodus, Sinai and the defeat of the pagans in the promised land.

Additionally, in the spectacle of the public parade the King receives gifts in homage (Ps 68:18,29,31) and he generously distributes the spoils of war to his own citizens (Ps 68:19). With Christ, he distributes the spoils of his war unto the Church in the form of the charismata given unto mankind, making them Chosen apostles, prophets, pastors, evangelists, and teachers with him (Eph 4:8,11)

Again, please enjoy this fine scholarship from Matthew Henry on the subject for your edification:

"As great conquerors, when they rode in their triumphal chariots, used to be attended with the most illustrious of their captives led in chains, and were wont to scatter their largesses and bounty among the soldiers and other spectators of their triumphs, so Christ, when he ascended into heaven, as a triumphant conqueror, led captivity captive. It is a phrase used in the Old Testament to signify a conquest over enemies, especially over such as formerly had led others captive; see Jdg. 5:12. Captivity is here put for captives, and signifies all our spiritual enemies, who brought us into captivity before. He conquered those who had conquered us; such as sin, the devil, and death. Indeed, he triumphed over these on the cross; but the triumph was completed at his ascension, when he became Lord over all, and had the keys of death and hades put into his hands."

And also some more Scholarship from the link YOU previously provided:

"The verse [Ephesians 4:8] is very clear—both in English and in Greek. It doesn’t mean that Christ freed those who were in prison, those who were captive."


As Scripture plainly testifies, Contrary to your assertion, The "captivity" that Christ "lead away captive" were His defeated enemies, and not the saved souls in Hades.

Again friend, Resurrection is the ONLY vehicle by which the saved dead are RAISED from Hades into the Heights of Heaven. That does not happen, indeed CAN NOT HAPPEN, until 1 Corinthians 15:55-56 and Revelation 20:12-15 are FULFILLED.

Highlighting, and proving the point I made in my initial post you first chimed in on.
Namely that Futurists need to have it both ways for their doctrine to work:

Immediate Judgement and Resurrection upon death, enabling the departed saved soul to be Raised to Heaven, fully cleansed and pardoned, instead of going to Sheol/Hades/Purgatory to await Judgment as Scripture MANDATES, AND a yet future Judgement that necessitates everyone must go to Hades/Sheol/Purgatory upon death to await.

Such twisted, unrecognizable arglebargle ought be untenable to any Honest Bible expositor.
 
Upvote 0

BNR32FAN

He’s a Way of life
Supporter
Aug 11, 2017
22,111
7,243
Dallas
✟873,878.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Short answer NO there is nothing that clearly says that it exists. Frankly many people believe it was an invention of the Catholic Church. That happens when you have too many theologians sitting around trying to find something new to write about.

Well I don’t think it’s a coincidence that it was formulated on 1439AD when the abuse of indulgences was at an all time high in the Roman Church. Purgatory offered a way of selling indulgences for the deceased where the church would require a payment in return for prayers for a dead person so that they could be released from purgatory and allowed to enter heaven.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ngodap
Upvote 0

bbbbbbb

Well-Known Member
Jun 9, 2015
27,803
13,115
72
✟362,269.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Well I don’t think it’s a coincidence that it was formulated on 1439AD when the abuse of indulgences was at an all time high in the Roman Church. Purgatory offered a way of selling indulgences for the deceased where the church would require a payment in return for prayers for a dead person so that they could be released from purgatory and allowed to enter heaven.

The problem today is that Purgatory is no longer packaged by the RCC as a place of torment where one is punished for one's temporal sins; rather, it is being presented as a pleasant sojourn like a refreshing shower where one cleans up so one can enter heaven. Thus, indulgences have become utterly useless and meaningless.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ngodap
Upvote 0

parousia70

Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow
Supporter
Feb 24, 2002
15,533
4,826
57
Oregon
✟793,718.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
IN ITS original languages, the Bible uses the Hebrew word sheʼohlʹ

IN ITS original language, the bible uses its Greek equivalent haiʹdes.

Both refer to the same place, one of torment!

Example of witchcraft...........

"If the Devil, or an evil spirit troubles anyone, they can be driven away by making a smoke of the heart, liver, and gall of a fish...and the Devil will smell it, and flee away, and never come again anymore."
(Tobit 6:5-8. Ronald Knox translation)

Until 1 Corinthians 15:55-56 and Revelation 20:12-15 are FULFILLED, ALL the Dead Go to Hades, Righteous and Wicked, Separated by a gulf, but encompassed in Hades.
hades is not emptied by any means besides RESURRECTION.

You have no scripture that teaches any souls in any part of hades are RAISED to Heaven PRIOR to their Resurrection.
Not even one.
I realize you WANT it to be that way, and it may FEEL GOOD to think that what you claim is true, but Desires and Feelings are no substitute for Solid scriptural teaching.

Your futurism forces you to create two of everything separated by thousands of years and pointing to different referents. Futurism seeks anything other than letting the scriptures interpret the scriptures.

You claim the righteous get raised to heaven and are granted eternal life upon physical death, and then get a second "raising and eternal life" granted at the Parousia. Your futurism mandates you take a single concept and make two out of it and assign it to separate things, one for you now and one for you somewhere down the line, perhaps even thousands of years away.

That said, Does God hear and respond to the Cries of the righteous in Hades/Sheol?
Jonah 2:2
“Out of the belly of Sheol I cried,
And You heard my voice
.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

bbbbbbb

Well-Known Member
Jun 9, 2015
27,803
13,115
72
✟362,269.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Until 1 Corinthians 15:55-56 and Revelation 20:12-15 are FULFILLED, ALL the Dead Go to Hades, Righteous and Wicked, Separated by a gulf, but encompassed in Hades.
hades is not emptied by any means besides RESURRECTION.

You have no scripture that teaches any souls in any part of hades are RAISED to Heaven PRIOR to their Resurrection.
Not even one.

That said, Does God hear and respond to the Cries of the righteous in Hades/Sheol?
Jonah 2:2
“Out of the belly of Sheol I cried,
And You heard my voice
.

Where do you think the Apostle Paul is this very moment? Was he in error or lying when he wrote that he would rather be "absent from the body and present with the Lord?"
 
Upvote 0