Purgatory

[Albion]

As Saint Augustine said: “But by the prayers of the holy Church, and by the salvific sacrifice, and by the alms which are given for their spirits, there is no doubt that the dead are aided, that the Lord might deal more mercifully with them than their sins would deserve. The whole Church observes this practice which was handed down by the Fathers: that it prays for those who have died in the communion of the Body and Blood of Christ, when they are commemorated in their own place in the sacrifice itself; and the sacrifice is offered also in memory of them, on their behalf. If, then, works of mercy are celebrated for the sake of those who are being remembered, who would hesitate to recommend them, on whose behalf prayers to God are not offered in vain? It is not at all to be doubted that such prayers are of profit to the dead; but for such of them as lived before their death in a way that makes it possible for these things to be useful to them after death” (Sermons, 172:2).

...and yet, not a thing in that whole passage describes Purgatory.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Quite true. How times do change!

So, was the ecumenical council wrong before or are they wrong now? Or did they just alter the characteristics of purgatory all together? I’m just curious exactly where do you get this idea that there is no suffering in purgatory now? Is this an official teaching or is this just a hearsay rumor floating around?

 

[Albion]

So, was the ecumenical council wrong before or are they wrong now? Or did they just alter the characteristics of purgatory all together? I’m just curious exactly where do you get this idea that there is no suffering in purgatory now? Is this an official teaching or is this just a hearsay rumor floating around?

It's a fact. From parish priests all the way up to the Pope, the traditional meaning has lately been fudged, softened, altered.

Limbo was junked altogether in recent years, and now Purgatory (which was defined in a church council and cannot therefore be as easily eliminated as was), has been changed from a place of punishment for sin into a transition from this life to that of heaven which amounts to a reorientation experience.

 

[BNR32FAN]

It's a fact. From parish priests all the way up to the Pope, the traditional meaning has lately been fudged, softened, altered.

Limbo was junked altogether in recent years, and now Purgatory (which was defined in a church council and cannot therefore be as easily eliminated as was), has been changed from a place of punishment for sin into a transition from this life to that of heaven which amounts to a reorientation experience.

Correct me if I’m wrong here but I was under the impression that the Roman Church is supposed to be infallible when it comes to matters of doctrine?

 

[Albion]

Correct me if I’m wrong here but I was under the impression that the Roman Church is supposed to be infallible when it comes to matters of doctrine?

Oh sure, but there are "rules" that govern what is to be thought official and what doesn't meet that test.

Limbo always was speculation because there just isn't enough in scripture or tradition to permit a firm answer about the fate of unbaptized infants who die. However, the speculation was taught for hundreds of years as though it were official. Then the emphasis on God's mercy gradually replaced an emphasis on his justice. But with Purgatory, which was proclaimed by a church council, that change obviously presented problems, so it's been changed in a way that permits the claim that there really hasn't been a significant change.

 

[bbbbbbb]

As Saint Augustine said: “But by the prayers of the holy Church, and by the salvific sacrifice, and by the alms which are given for their spirits, there is no doubt that the dead are aided, that the Lord might deal more mercifully with them than their sins would deserve. The whole Church observes this practice which was handed down by the Fathers: that it prays for those who have died in the communion of the Body and Blood of Christ, when they are commemorated in their own place in the sacrifice itself; and the sacrifice is offered also in memory of them, on their behalf. If, then, works of mercy are celebrated for the sake of those who are being remembered, who would hesitate to recommend them, on whose behalf prayers to God are not offered in vain? It is not at all to be doubted that such prayers are of profit to the dead; but for such of them as lived before their death in a way that makes it possible for these things to be useful to them after death” (Sermons, 172:2).

That is quite interesting. Nowhere in your passage does he mention anything related to praying for the relief in the suffering of Christians after death as God is punishing them for their temporal sins. in fact, the whole concept is made even more vague by the idea that prayers after death are offered to a God who, being apart from time, hears them and applies them to the individual while they were yet alive.

 

[Valletta]

It's a fact. From parish priests all the way up to the Pope, the traditional meaning has lately been fudged, softened, altered.

Limbo was junked altogether in recent years, and now Purgatory (which was defined in a church council and cannot therefore be as easily eliminated as was), has been changed from a place of punishment for sin into a transition from this life to that of heaven which amounts to a reorientation experience.

Ah, the life of a theologian. Now perhaps you can see the reason for councils and why someone was needed to make a final decision--without that perhaps we would still be debating what six Apostles said in opposition to the other six. Never underestimate the wisdom of God. Remember the 73 books that were chosen by the Catholic Church had to comply one hundred percent with Catholic teaching. The Bible is the book of the Catholic Church, not the other way around.

 

[Albion]

Ah, the life of a theologian. Now perhaps you can see the reason for councils and why someone was needed to make a final decision--without that perhaps we would still be debating what six Apostles said in opposition to the other six.

Before you get too far off topic...the council that produced Purgatory was not one of the seven Ecumenical Councils that all Catholic churches consider to be infallible.

But because the Roman Catholic Church considers all of its own councils to be de facto ecumenical councils (since there is only one real church), the changing of the meaning of Purgatory poses a problem for her.

 

[parousia70]

So, please tell us what is burned in this passage. Is there any mention of purging or of temporal sins being purged?

First, what are sins, but bad or wicked works (see Matthew 7:21-23, John 8:40, Galatians 5:19-21)?
If these “works” do not represent sins and imperfections, what do you assert they represent and why do you believe they would need to be eliminated after a person dies, but before they are "saved", as this scripture testifies?

Second, it is impossible for a “work” to be cleansed apart from the human being who performed it. We are, in a certain sense, what we do when it comes to our moral choices. There is no such thing as a “work” floating around somewhere detached from a human being that could be cleansed apart from that human being, as you appear to contend. The idea that you appear to be championing here, that Works are somehow separate from persons does not make sense and is not supported by any scripture.

Most importantly, however, your apparent idea of “works” being “burned up” apart from the soul that performed the work contradicts the text itself. The text does say the works will be tested by fire, but “if the work survives… he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he shall suffer loss.” And, “he will be saved, but only as through fire” (Gr. dia puros). The truth is: both the works of the individual and the individual will go through the cleansing “fire” described by St. Paul in order that “he” might finally be saved and enter into the joy of the Lord.

 

[Albion]

First, what are sins, but bad or wicked works (see Matthew 7:21-23, John 8:40, Galatians 5:19-21)?
The idea that you appear to be championing here, that Works are somehow separate from persons does not make sense and is not supported by any scripture.

The point, I think, was that we are forgiven our sins. It's not as though we dispose of our sins or make sins disappear by doing good deeds in order to offset them, or anything like that.

Most importantly, however, your apparent idea of “works” being “burned up” apart from the soul that performed the work contradicts the text itself. The text does say the works will be tested by fire, but “if the work survives… he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he shall suffer loss.” And, “he will be saved, but only as through fire” (Gr. dia puros). The truth is: both the works of the individual and the individual will go through the cleansing “fire” described by St. Paul in order that “he” might finally be saved and enter into the joy of the Lord.

That doesn't follow. Purgatory is supposedly about sins and making reparation for them; it is not about one's works earning a reward or, OTOH, being found insufficient. The passage, therefore, is not about Purgatory.

 

[parousia70]

That doesn't follow. Purgatory is supposedly about sins and making reparation for them; it is not about one's works earning a reward or, OTOH, being found insufficient. The passage, therefore, is not about Purgatory.

Again, what are sins, but bad or wicked works (see Matthew 7:21-23, John 8:40, Galatians 5:19-21)

If they are not Sins, Can you give me an example of a "work" of a Christian that would be found insufficient and in need of burning away into nothing (like the wood and straw) or a Good work sufficient but still in need of purifying (like Gold) after a person dies but before they are saved?

 

[bbbbbbb]

Again, what are sins, but bad or wicked works (see Matthew 7:21-23, John 8:40, Galatians 5:19-21)

If they are not Sins, Can you give me an example of a "work" of a Christian that would be found insufficient and in need of burning away into nothing (like the wood and straw) or a Good work sufficient but still in need of purifying (like Gold) after a person dies but before they are saved?

Sure, an example of a work that will be burned up is repeating endless prayers. The fact that one repeats prayers is a work. The fact that God is hardly impressed by them makes them works which will be burned up. Are they sin? I think not. Are they useless? Definitely.

 

[Major1]

The prayerful process, by the Catholic Church, of choosing the 73 books of the Bible spanned centuries.
All apocryphal texts were rejected by the Catholic Church. As to the deuterocanonicals, the Catholic Church took those books from the Septuagint because the Greek Septuagint is what the Apostles taught from. Luther was able to get some, but not all of the books he wanted dropped from the Protestant version of the Bible because the books did not support his new religion. Those books stood the test of time and were accepted by some of the most spiritual and brilliant minds are world has seen, century after century after century. It strains even the imagination that the Apostles would teach from any book that included your allegation of the occult. There are a number of books among the 73 that do not include a direct quotation. Are you suggesting those be removed as well? However there are references. Hebrews 11, for example, tells of those who were tortured but refused to renounce their faith in being resurrected. Such an event can only be found once in the Bible, in one of my favorite Biblical passages which happens to be from 2 Maccabees.

You are of course to free to accept and believe anything you choose to do. I am not going to argue or try to persuade you or anyone else to change their opinion.

All I am doing is showing any seeker of the truth that the Apocrypha is NOT the Word of God.

The fact is, AGAIN, the Apostles never quoted from the Apocrypha!
Jesus never quoted from the Apochypha!

You said.................
"It strains even the imagination that the Apostles would teach from any book that included your allegation of the occult."

Now that comment is not actually accurate, now is it my friend! While Jesus and His apostles often quoted from the Septuagint,
they never quoted from the Apocrypha. Allusions Are Not The Same As Scripture. While there may be some allusions to the apocryphal books by New Test. writers there is no direct quote from them.

As far as "Occultic", allow me to give you the example from The Book of Tobit where we see the story of Suzzanna. Are you familiar with this story?????? You should be as YOU are supporting the Apocrypha and Tobit is included.

Story of Susanna, which is a prequel or interquel to Daniel, depending on which version of the Bible is being read.

In the story, the titular woman is cornered in her home by two older men and threatened with being accused of adultery if she refuses to “know” them in the genital, Biblical sense. Susanna refuses and is, of course, found guilty by the Council of Elders and sentenced to death on their testimony alone. Enter Daniel—after being divinely informed by God of the two men’s false testimony, a second trial is arranged. Daniel proves their guilt with a basic cross-examination, and justice is served; Susanna is freed and the two perverts are executed.

Here is another example of the Occult...........

The Book of Tobit is notable for two things: the inclusion of the demon Asmodeus and how he was exorcised. Tobit himself is more of a bit player in his own book, having been taken out of the action after a bird craps in his eyes and makes him blind. The real focus of the story is on Tobit’s son Tobias, who is sent by Tobit to get some money in a far-off city called Media. He’s joined by the angel Raphael, who has taken human form and claims to be a relative who can guide Tobias to Media. Raphael, however, has his own agenda.

In Media, they find a woman named Sarah, who has been married seven times, with each groom slain by Asmodeus on their wedding day. Sarah sinks into despair and prays to God for death, so God decides to kill two birds with one stone and take out Asmodeus while also healing Tobit.

How? With fish guts.

Now where in the Word of God can we find ANYTHING similar to these productions????

 

[Major1]

Again, what are sins, but bad or wicked works (see Matthew 7:21-23, John 8:40, Galatians 5:19-21)

If they are not Sins, Can you give me an example of a "work" of a Christian that would be found insufficient and in need of burning away into nothing (like the wood and straw) or a Good work sufficient but still in need of purifying (like Gold) after a person dies but before they are saved?

Sin is anything that is contrary to the law or will of God. For example: if you lie, you have sinned.

You asked...............
"Can you give me an example of a "work" of a Christian that would be found insufficient and in need of burning away into nothing ?"

Yes I can......Matthew 5:22...The Lord Jesus Himself tells YOU the answer -
"But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire. "

You asked this ...........
"a Good work sufficient but still in need of purifying (like Gold) after a person dies but before they are saved"

THINK about what you just said...."AFTER a person dies but before they are saved"!

Am I the only one who does not grasp this idea?

 

[Major1]

Oh no! I see that there's been some discussion about that post before me, but you'd better check into this for your own sake as a Catholic. Even though Purgatory has lately been re-invented, it never was and isn't now the same as Hades or Sheol.

I think that is called......"Bait and Switch"!

BY including the Word "Purgatory" in the same sentence as Sheol and Hades the suggestion is that they ARE the same thing.

That my brother Albion is the epidemy of the root of all false teaching!

 

[Major1]

That’s not how it was described at the council of Florence where the doctrine was formulated.

Also, if truly penitent people die in the love of God before they have made satisfaction for acts and omissions by worthy fruits of repentance, their souls are cleansed after death by cleansing pains; and the suffrages of the living faithful avail them in giving relief from such pains, that is, sacrifices of masses, prayers, almsgiving and other acts of devotion which have been customarily performed by some of the faithful for others of the faithful in accordance with the church's ordinances.

Council of Florence session 6 July 6 1439AD

That is a classic Roman Catholic teaching. Now if it was founded on the Word of God I would be the first to promote it, but alas......it is nothing but a made of false religious teaching form the same mind set of the Pharisees.

 

[Major1]

You should let Pope Francis know.

Get me an audience and I will pay my own air fair to get there my friend!

 

[Major1]

1 Corinthians 3:11-15
11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

That may very well be what the RCC has told you to say.......but that Scripture has absolutely NOTHING to do with the RCC teaching of Purgatory. NOTHING!!!!

May I say to you that the Scripture you posted is an "Architectural" example of Pauls teaching on Eternal Security of the believer!

Paul's point is that some people are trying to build the church with poor materials; they gather a congregation quickly, but there is nothing transforming about their ministry. Minds and hearts have not been changed to Christ! These people might work hard, but because their energy is misdirected, but they will have nothing that lasts in glory.

Others are trying to build with precious stones; they have a ministry based on the Word of God, prayer and the Spirit. They value character, which D. L. Moody defined as 'what a man is in the dark when no one is looking.' They know that they will be judged, not just for what they did but for who they are.

As veteran missionary to India Amy Carmichael used to say, 'The work will never go deeper that we have gone ourselves.' These shall receive a reward.'

The person who is 'saved so as by fire' is indeed a Christian, but his leadership has been flawed. He has relied too heavily upon himself, his techniques, and his training. He did not approach the work with a spirit of dependence and faith; he did not do the work with Spirit-directed faithfulness. He will be 'saved so as by fire.'

Though Paul's point is intended for the leaders of the church, it can be applied to all of us. We are all building our lives, day by day; each of us will be tested, and each life will reveal a mixture of precious stones and stubble.

Imagine for a moment that all of our deeds were turned into either precious metals or trash/straw/hay, and then torched. The kind of life we lived would become evident by the size of the fire. The question would be: What was left when the flames died out? The more carnality and selfishness, the more 'wood, hay, straw' and the less 'gold, silver, precious stones.' This teaching helps all of us come to terms with the thoroughness of God's judgment."

 

[Major1]

Let's follow your logic. We know that Hades is the Greek translation of the word Sheol. We do not know a thing from the Bible concerning an alleged state/place known as Purgatory.

Before we can follow any logic we need to have a clear definition of Purgatory. Is it a place where all Catholics go to have their temporal sins purged from them?

If so, then the rest of humanity is unaccounted for. If not, what are the rest of humanity doing there while the Catholics are suffering for their sins?

Also, who, if anyone, is in heaven at this moment? How did they get there?

Did you forget that the RCC teaches that "Only" the Catholic believer will be in heaven?

 

[Major1]

Unless Hades/Sheol/Purgatory are the same place.




Exactly what I've been attempting to point out to @Major1

You may have tried to give me "YOUR" opinion my friend, but you have not pointed out in any way where I can validate that Purgatory/Sheol/Hades are the same thing.

Just so that we are are factually clear.......

1. Sheol is the Hebrew word for... reference to the grave or the home of the deceased.

2. Hades is the Greek word.........reference to the grave or the home of the deceased.

3. Purgatory is the Catholic name to a none existence place/experience.