Purgatory

parousia70

Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow
Supporter
Feb 24, 2002
15,533
4,826
57
Oregon
✟794,018.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Yes, that is quite true. The complete change of meaning has resulted in amazing vagueness and confusion within and outside of the Catholic Church.

I blame Futurism itself, and it’s inherent inconsistencies, for that result.

Futurists want to have it both ways.
Immediate judgement upon death, instead of purgatory, AND a yet future Judgement that necessitates everyone must go to purgatory upon death to await.

Absolutely confusing, because the two views are irreconcilable, and it has spawned a cacophony of un resolvable explanations across Christendom.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

concretecamper

Member of His Church
Nov 23, 2013
6,742
2,553
PA
✟271,879.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
what she had taught to generations of her members
Limbo (as you are referring to) was NEVER docrine of the Church :doh:

Therefore all of is

With Purgatory, the church was in a "bind." That's because Purgatory had been defined by a church council, so she couldn't just say "Oops. Not true after all." As a result, the church kept the term but changed the meaning totally
is an absurd conclusion.

Yes, that is quite true. The complete change of meaning has resulted in amazing vagueness and confusion within and outside of the Catholic Church.
right on cue.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Major1

Well-Known Member
Sep 17, 2016
10,551
2,837
Deland, Florida
✟203,785.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
2 Maccabees 12:45 records an atonement made for the dead. It does not specifically say where the dead were, only that an atonement was made for them.

2 Maccabees is from the Apocrypha and NOT found in the Bible.

The Apocrypha teaches things that the Bible condemns and just as few are...........

1. Magic
2. Forgiveness of sin is by human works
3. Money as an offering for the sins of the dead
4. The books of the Apocrypha contain many historical errors
A. (The book of Judith incorrectly says that Nebuchadnezzar was the king of the
Assyrians when he was the king of the Babylonians.)
B. (Baruch 6:2 says the Jews would serve in Babylon for seven generations
where Jer. 25:11 says it was for 70 years. “And this whole land shall be a
desolation and a horror, and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon
seventy years.”).

IF these books were truly the Word of God, there would be NO historical errors at all!
 
Upvote 0

Major1

Well-Known Member
Sep 17, 2016
10,551
2,837
Deland, Florida
✟203,785.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Gravity is not specifically mentioned or named in the bible either, though I think you will find it implied ;)

Automobiles are not named in the Bible though I think that you will find them helpful and they can be thought of as "implied".

Nahum 2:4
"The chariots race madly through the streets; they rush to and fro through the squares; they gleam like torches; they dart like lightning."
 
Upvote 0

Major1

Well-Known Member
Sep 17, 2016
10,551
2,837
Deland, Florida
✟203,785.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Because the Apocrypha is not trash or bogus. It has value, and the most prominent of the Reformation Protestant churches recognized that.

BUT that does not make it divine revelation upon which we can define doctrine, as we do with the Bible's books. And that is what is in focus in this particular discussion.

I love your comments but in this case I have to disagree. I know that the Apocrypha is not the focus here but those books are highly questionable and any doctrine formulated from them....such as Purgatory IMO must be rejected.

But that is just me.
 
Upvote 0

Major1

Well-Known Member
Sep 17, 2016
10,551
2,837
Deland, Florida
✟203,785.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I blame Futurism itself, and it’s inherent inconsistencies, for that result.

Futurists want to have it both ways.
Immediate judgement upon death, instead of purgatory, AND a yet future Judgement that necessitates everyone must go to purgatory upon death to await.

Absolutely confusing, because the two views are irreconcilable, and it has spawned a cacophony of un resolvable explanations across Christendom.

Would you like to post "ONE" Scripture from the Bible, KJV, NIV, ESV, HOLMOND, etc. where we can see the word......"PURGATORY".
 
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,138
33,258
✟583,842.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
2 Maccabees is from the Apocrypha and NOT found in the Bible.

The Apocrypha teaches things that the Bible condemns and just as few are...........

1. Magic
2. Forgiveness of sin is by human works
3. Money as an offering for the sins of the dead
4. The books of the Apocrypha contain many historical errors
A. (The book of Judith incorrectly says that Nebuchadnezzar was the king of the
Assyrians when he was the king of the Babylonians.)
B. (Baruch 6:2 says the Jews would serve in Babylon for seven generations
where Jer. 25:11 says it was for 70 years. “And this whole land shall be a
desolation and a horror, and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon
seventy years.”).

IF these books were truly the Word of God, there would be NO historical errors at all!
What's wrong (or misleading) about citing that passage from Maccabees goes much further than this, however. Regardless of whether or not that book should be considered part of the Bible...

1. Praying for the dead, which is referred to, is a far cry from a reference to Purgatory. It has almost nothing to do with the existence or nature of a Purgatory.

On the contrary, the object of the prayers was to insure the future resurrection of the body and soul from the dead (2 Maccabees 43-45), not anything to do with Purgatory which, if true, deals with souls believed to be conscious immediately after physical death.

2. Even today, Christian churches which do not consider the book to be Scripture and also do not believe that certain prayers can loose any spirit from his place in the afterlife nevertheless do, in a limited way, pray that God will be merciful upon all those believers who have passed on. It's not that the prayers can effect this according to any magic-like formula; it's just a general petition calling on God to be merciful.

3. The passage in 2 Maccabees merely records that some Jews were observed to be doing this. There is no indication that this is good to do...or not...or is needed.
 
Last edited:
  • Agree
Reactions: Major1
Upvote 0

Major1

Well-Known Member
Sep 17, 2016
10,551
2,837
Deland, Florida
✟203,785.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
"It is appointed to man once to die and then the judgement." Hebrews 9:27

If we have to go to a place to pay for our own sins that weren't covered on this earth or to "cleanse" ourselves in preparation for heaven....

....then that means that Jesus Christ's atonement does NOT cover our sins in full and his shed blood is not cleansing.

And that is a lie

You are correct!

The teaching of Purgatory is that the shed blood of Jesus Christ was not good enough to save man.

Man then upon death must go to a place called Purgatory so that he can work out his own salvation.

The term itself, "Purgatory" which literally means to purge or cleanse, did not come into existence until around 1175 - 1225 A.D. (dictionary.com).

The Biblical short answer is that the belief in a purgatory is completely void of any serious doctrinal support and did not come from God. It is a teaching that was first clearly expressed by the RCC as early as the Council of Florence (1431 - 1449 A.D.).

Just in case those reading these posts do not understand what Purgatory is.....
Catholics believe that some people retain a "stain" on their souls for sins they have committed even if they repented of them and asked for forgiveness.

That then means.....the shed blood of Jesus Christ was not good enough to cleans the sin of that person!

When they die this stain remains on their immortal soul. Those whose stained souls are not considered worthy of eternal torment in the lake of fire, must still have them "cleaned" before entering God's presence.

The Catholic church's doctrinal solution to the problem (which they created) of a "dirty" soul is that it must enter an intermediary state of existence known as purgatory. Once there, a person must spend a short but unknown amount of time enduring sufferings in order to be purged from all sin and made spiritually clean.

That then is the act of working for one's own salvation.

It is only after this purging, according to the church, that a person is worthy enough to enter heaven and God's presence.

Now you, those who believe in this RCC traditional teaching are free to do so and I do not argue your freedom to do so.

I would however like to point out to all of you that the Scripture, however, does not mention or even hint at the existence of a spiritual "cleaning station" called purgatory! The word Purgatory is nowhere to be found in any Bible translation.

The teaching that some who ask God for forgiveness are not quite fully forgiven, and therefore must still be punished by Him is purgatory, is a complete mockery of Jesus' sacrifice and His shed blood for the remission of ALL sins of ALL humanity.!

Our Savior's sinless sacrifice as the Lamb of God makes possible the complete and total cleansing of all sins for those who repent (1John 1:7, 9, etc.).
 
Upvote 0

Major1

Well-Known Member
Sep 17, 2016
10,551
2,837
Deland, Florida
✟203,785.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
What's wrong (or misleading) about citing that passage from Maccabees goes much further than this, however. Regardless of whether or not that book should be considered part of the Bible...

1. Praying for the dead, which is referred to, is a far cry from a reference to Purgatory. It has almost nothing to do with the existence or nature of a Purgatory.

On the contrary, the object of the prayers was to insure the future resurrection of the body and soul from the dead (2 Maccabees 43-45), not anything to do with Purgatory which, if true, deals with souls believed to be conscious immediately after physical death.

2. Even today, Christian churches which do not consider the book to be Scripture and also do not believe that certain prayers can loose any spirit from his place in the afterlife nevertheless do, in a limited way, pray that God will be merciful upon all those believers who have passed on. It's not that the prayers can effect this according to any magic-like formula; it's just a general petition calling on God to be merciful.

3. The passage in 2 Maccabees merely records that some Jews were observed to be doing this. There is no indication that this is good to do...or not...or is needed.

I highly respect your opinions brother and I agree with you.

IMHO.....there is nothing in any book of the Apocrypha that can or should be used to draft any Christian doctrine.
 
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,138
33,258
✟583,842.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
I love your comments but in this case I have to disagree. I know that the Apocrypha is not the focus here but those books are highly questionable and any doctrine formulated from them....such as Purgatory IMO must be rejected.

But that is just me.
No, it isn't just you. Neither I nor my church consider those books to be part of the Bible or that anything in them can be used to establish any doctrine. That, however, was not what I was pointing out.

It wasn't that the Apocrypha or Maccabees should be considered Scripture. My point was that even if they WERE to be considered Holy Scripture, they do not support what was being claimed for those writings.

They do not teach a Purgatory, and they do not teach that praying for deceased believers can free them from some "place" of punishment in the afterlife.

What the passage shows is that the Jews in question were concerned that there would be a resurrection from the dead on the last day--something that all of us here believe, and not because of these skimpy references in the Apocrypha.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

bbbbbbb

Well-Known Member
Jun 9, 2015
27,812
13,119
72
✟362,418.00
Faith
Non-Denom
I blame Futurism itself, and it’s inherent inconsistencies, for that result.

Futurists want to have it both ways.
Immediate judgement upon death, instead of purgatory, AND a yet future Judgement that necessitates everyone must go to purgatory upon death to await.

Absolutely confusing, because the two views are irreconcilable, and it has spawned a cacophony of un resolvable explanations across Christendom.

Very nicely stated. Thank you.
 
Upvote 0

Major1

Well-Known Member
Sep 17, 2016
10,551
2,837
Deland, Florida
✟203,785.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
No, it isn't just you. Neither I nor my church consider those books to be part of the Bible or that anything in them can be used to establish any doctrine. That, however, was not what I was pointing out.

It wasn't that the Apocrypha or Maccabees should be considered Scripture. My point was that even if they WERE to be considered Holy Scripture, they do not support what was being claimed for those writings.

They do not teach a Purgatory, and they do not teach that praying for deceased believers can free them from some "place" of punishment in the afterlife.

What the passage shows is that the Jews in question were concerned that there would be a resurrection from the dead on the last day--something that all of us here believe, and not because of these skimpy references in the Apocrypha.

My fault. You will be my age one day and remember this conversation!
 
Upvote 0

Victor in Christ

Jehovah Tsidkenu
Jun 9, 2020
1,151
439
British Isles
✟17,662.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
So i would like see scriptures considering this subject. Are there any scriptures which clearly tells us that this place exist?

RCC church man-made invention. And what's worse is they used it to make money.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Major1
Upvote 0

Major1

Well-Known Member
Sep 17, 2016
10,551
2,837
Deland, Florida
✟203,785.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I blame Futurism itself, and it’s inherent inconsistencies, for that result.

Futurists want to have it both ways.
Immediate judgement upon death, instead of purgatory, AND a yet future Judgement that necessitates everyone must go to purgatory upon death to await.

Absolutely confusing, because the two views are irreconcilable, and it has spawned a cacophony of un resolvable explanations across Christendom.

I do not know you and I assume you are a wonderful person and I do not say this with any disrespect to you.

To the best of my knowledge there are FOUR (4) approaches or methods of Bible interpretation when it comes to Escotology.

1. You just mentioned the "Futurist" method.
2. Then there is the "Historicist".
3. The "Preterist"
4. And the "Spiritual (Idealist).

Now then.....the "Futurist" method I know about does not insist on an "Immediate Judgment" as you stated. You have either misunderstood or are not understanding the Scriptures.

The "Futurist" method teaches in ONE Judgment for the lost.

The Christian is not judged as his sins were judged and placed upon Christ and He paid for the sins of the whole world.

1 John 2:2..........
“And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”

After Armageddon, and then after the 1000 year rule of Christ the Bible says that their will be a "Great White Throne Judgment Seat". That is a ONE time event where the lost of all the ages stand before God to be judged.

Revelation 20:11-15......
“Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.”

IN the Bible.....there is NO/ZERO/NONE time frame found where a lost man has a "time" after death where he somehow works out his sin. DEATH ends all choices and there is no salvation after death, not according to the Bible.

Now if you choose to believe a religious institutions teachings over the Word of God....please feel free to do so my friend.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

concretecamper

Member of His Church
Nov 23, 2013
6,742
2,553
PA
✟271,879.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
2 Maccabees is from the Apocrypha and NOT found in the Bible.
2 Maccabees is in the Bible. It may not be in your book that claims to be the Bible but I am guessing many more books are missing too. My Bible contains the same books as were in the Bible 500 years ago, 1000 years ago, 1500 years ago....get the picture?
 
Upvote 0

parousia70

Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow
Supporter
Feb 24, 2002
15,533
4,826
57
Oregon
✟794,018.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Would you like to post "ONE" Scripture from the Bible, KJV, NIV, ESV, HOLMOND, etc. where we can see the word......"PURGATORY".
Already addressed in my post #38
 
Upvote 0

parousia70

Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow
Supporter
Feb 24, 2002
15,533
4,826
57
Oregon
✟794,018.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

concretecamper

Member of His Church
Nov 23, 2013
6,742
2,553
PA
✟271,879.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I greatly appreciate the fact that you established that the word "Purgatory" is never used in any English (or other language, for that matter) translation of the Bible.
neither is Trinity. But as Christians, we are bound to that doctrine.
 
Upvote 0