Purgatory

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Prayers before some dies is not a prayer for the dead, now is it.

THINK!

Well that’s a rather rude way to put it. You misunderstood me. I wasn’t talking about praying for someone before they die hence the reference to God’s omniscience and omnipresence. When you pray for someone after they have died did God know about your prayer before that person died or does He have to wait until you actually make the prayer?
 
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The problem today is that Purgatory is no longer packaged by the RCC as a place of torment where one is punished for one's temporal sins; rather, it is being presented as a pleasant sojourn like a refreshing shower where one cleans up so one can enter heaven. Thus, indulgences have become utterly useless and meaningless.

Pleasant or not it still implies that Jesus’ sacrifice didn’t pay for all our sins which is the biggest problem with the doctrine.
 
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parousia70

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Where do you think the Apostle Paul is this very moment? Was he in error or lying when he wrote that he would rather be "absent from the body and present with the Lord?"

Context Friend.

Back up a few verses....

5 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, 3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. 4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord.


Verse one states that there are two tabernacles, or bodies, one heavenly and the other terrestrial (earthly). Verses two and three explain that at the present time we are burdened in our earthly, mortal bodies; but our hope is that some day we shall be "dressed" in the heavenly body, "that the mortal may be swallowed up by life" (vs. 3).

When will this mortal "be swallowed up by life?" The moment we die? No, for Paul tells us in 1 Cor. 15:52-54 that our mortality will not be changed to immortality until "the last trump." Paul makes it plain that he looked forward to the resurrection, not to the day of his death:

. . . we are not wanting to be stripped [die], but to be dressed. . . [resurrected] (vs. 3)

Did Paul then turn around and say in verse 8 that when he died, he would be "present with the Lord"? Of course not. He simply repeated what he had previously stated: (1) that this mortal body was burdensome, and (2) that he would rather be dressed in his resurrected body AND "be at home with the Lord."

Perhaps you could explain what you believe about The opposite situation?

How do you reconcile THIS:
2 Corinthians 5:6
So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord.


With THIS:
Matthew 18:20
For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.”

Is he Absent or Present?

Is the Lord Jesus Absent from you today or is He Present with you?
 
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BNR32FAN

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Until 1 Corinthians 15:55-56 and Revelation 20:12-15 are FULFILLED, ALL the Dead Go to Hades, Righteous and Wicked, Separated by a gulf, but encompassed in Hades.
hades is not emptied by any means besides RESURRECTION.

You have no scripture that teaches any souls in any part of hades are RAISED to Heaven PRIOR to their Resurrection.
Not even one.
I realize you WANT it to be that way, and it may FEEL GOOD to think that what you claim is true, but Desires and Feelings are no substitute for Solid scriptural teaching.

Your futurism forces you to create two of everything separated by thousands of years and pointing to different referents. Futurism seeks anything other than letting the scriptures interpret the scriptures.

You claim the righteous get raised to heaven and are granted eternal life upon physical death, and then get a second "raising and eternal life" granted at the Parousia. Your futurism mandates you take a single concept and make two out of it and assign it to separate things, one for you now and one for you somewhere down the line, perhaps even thousands of years away.

That said, Does God hear and respond to the Cries of the righteous in Hades/Sheol?
Jonah 2:2
“Out of the belly of Sheol I cried,
And You heard my voice
.

So then Mary was assumed to Hades?
 
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bbbbbbb

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Context Friend.

Back up a few verses....

5 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, 3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. 4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord.


Verse one states that there are two tabernacles, or bodies, one heavenly and the other terrestrial (earthly). Verses two and three explain that at the present time we are burdened in our earthly, mortal bodies; but our hope is that some day we shall be "dressed" in the heavenly body, "that the mortal may be swallowed up by life" (vs. 3).

When will this mortal "be swallowed up by life?" The moment we die? No, for Paul tells us in 1 Cor. 15:52-54 that our mortality will not be changed to immortality until "the last trump." Paul makes it plain that he looked forward to the resurrection, not to the day of his death:

. . . we are not wanting to be stripped [die], but to be dressed. . . [resurrected] (vs. 3)

Did Paul then turn around and say in verse 8 that when he died, he would be "present with the Lord"? Of course not. He simply repeated what he had previously stated: (1) that this mortal body was burdensome, and (2) that he would rather be dressed in his resurrected body AND "be at home with the Lord."

Perhaps you could explain what you believe about The opposite situation?

How do you reconcile THIS:
2 Corinthians 5:6
So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord.


With THIS:
Matthew 18:20
For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.”

Is he Absent or Present?

Is the Lord Jesus Absent from you today or is He Present with you?

Then, there is no problem at all here. If you believe that nobody goes to heaven until after the final resurrection, then it is, at least, consistent with a view that everyone is sent to Hades, or Sheol, after death. That, to say the very least, is inconsistent with the RCC understanding of Purgatory. OTOH, if you believe that only sinless saints are in heaven now, as the RCC maintains, having bypassed purgatory, then you have a problem explaining how they got there prior to the final resurrection.
 
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parousia70

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Then, there is no problem at all here. If you believe that nobody goes to heaven until after the final resurrection, then it is, at least, consistent with a view that everyone is sent to Hades, or Sheol, after death. That, to say the very least, is inconsistent with the RCC understanding of Purgatory.

Unless Hades/Sheol/Purgatory are the same place.


OTOH, if you believe that only sinless saints are in heaven now, as the RCC maintains, having bypassed purgatory, then you have a problem explaining how they got there prior to the final resurrection.

Exactly what I've been attempting to point out to @Major1
 
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bbbbbbb

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Unless Hades/Sheol/Purgatory are the same place.

Exactly what I've been attempting to point out to @Major1

Let's follow your logic. We know that Hades is the Greek translation of the word Sheol. We do not know a thing from the Bible concerning an alleged state/place known as Purgatory.

Before we can follow any logic we need to have a clear definition of Purgatory. Is it a place where all Catholics go to have their temporal sins purged from them?

If so, then the rest of humanity is unaccounted for. If not, what are the rest of humanity doing there while the Catholics are suffering for their sins?

Also, who, if anyone, is in heaven at this moment? How did they get there?
 
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parousia70

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Let's follow your logic. We know that Hades is the Greek translation of the word Sheol. We do not know a thing from the Bible concerning an alleged state/place known as Purgatory.
1 Corinthians 3:11-15
11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Unless Hades/Sheol/Purgatory are the same place.

I don’t think that could be possible because according to Luke 16:25-26 no one is permitted to cross over from one side of Sheol to the other.

“But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set, so that those who want to go over from here to you will not be able, nor will any people cross over from there to us.’”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭16:25-26‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

So those who go into the place of suffering in Sheol are not permitted to cross over into the place of paradise in Sheol. Not that it really matters because according to the Roman Catholic Church council of Florence session 6 July 6 1439AD souls do not wait in Sheol until judgement day. They either go straight to heaven, or go to purgatory to suffer in pain for their sins then go to heaven, or they go straight to hell.

“Also, if truly penitent people die in the love of God before they have made satisfaction for acts and omissions by worthy fruits of repentance, their souls are cleansed after death by cleansing pains; and the suffrages of the living faithful avail them in giving relief from such pains, that is, sacrifices of masses, prayers, almsgiving and other acts of devotion which have been customarily performed by some of the faithful for others of the faithful in accordance with the church's ordinances.

Also, the souls of those who have incurred no stain of sin whatsoever after baptism, as well as souls who after incurring the stain of sin have been cleansed whether in their bodies or outside their bodies, as was stated above, are straightaway received into heaven and clearly behold the triune God as he is, yet one person more perfectly than another according to the difference of their merits. But the souls of those who depart this life in actual mortal sin, or in original sin alone, go down straightaway to hell to be punished, but with unequal pains.

So the RCC definition of purgatory contradicts the possibility of waiting in Sheol until judgement day.
 
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Valletta

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You are correct and that is why the Apocrypha is not found in the Bible.

Do YOU know why the Apocrypha was removed??? YOU should know! Do the work!

The apocrypha books also support the use of magic and other occultic practices which cannot be attributed to God.

None of the apocryphal writers laid claim to inspiration.

Neither Jesus nor the apostles ever quoted from the Apocrypha.

Jesus referenced the Jewish Old Testament canon from the beginning to the end and did not include the Apocrypha in his reference. “From the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who perished between the altar and the house of God; yes, I tell you, it shall be charged against this generation,” (Luke 11:51).

There are over 260 quotations of the Old Testament in the New Testament and not one of them is from these books.

Athanasius, bishop of Alexandria (where the Septuagent was translated), did not include the Apocrypha as part of the Old Testament canon. In a letter, Athanasius listed the 22 Old Testament books and the 27 canonical books of the New Testament. He added:

"These are the fountains of salvation, that they who thirst may be satisfied with the living words they contain. In these ALONE (my emphasis) is proclaimed the doctrine of godliness." (Philip Schaff and Henry Wace, "Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers," Second Series, vol. IV, St. Athanasius, "Letter 39.6" (Grand Rapids:Eerdmans, 1953), p. 552)

The prayerful process, by the Catholic Church, of choosing the 73 books of the Bible spanned centuries.
All apocryphal texts were rejected by the Catholic Church. As to the deuterocanonicals, the Catholic Church took those books from the Septuagint because the Greek Septuagint is what the Apostles taught from. Luther was able to get some, but not all of the books he wanted dropped from the Protestant version of the Bible because the books did not support his new religion. Those books stood the test of time and were accepted by some of the most spiritual and brilliant minds are world has seen, century after century after century. It strains even the imagination that the Apostles would teach from any book that included your allegation of the occult. There are a number of books among the 73 that do not include a direct quotation. Are you suggesting those be removed as well? However there are references. Hebrews 11, for example, tells of those who were tortured but refused to renounce their faith in being resurrected. Such an event can only be found once in the Bible, in one of my favorite Biblical passages which happens to be from 2 Maccabees.
 
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Valletta

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The problem today is that Purgatory is no longer packaged by the RCC as a place of torment where one is punished for one's temporal sins; rather, it is being presented as a pleasant sojourn like a refreshing shower where one cleans up so one can enter heaven. Thus, indulgences have become utterly useless and meaningless.
You should let Pope Francis know.
 
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BNR32FAN

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1 Corinthians 3:11-15
11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

This has nothing to do with purgatory. First of all the works are tested by fire not the believer and if the works fail the test the works are burned up not the believer. The loss that is suffered is a loss of the rewards we will receive in heaven according to our deeds. Nothing in this entire chapter has anything to do with sin. Paul said

Now if anyone builds on the foundation (Christ) with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, each one’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each one’s work.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭3:12-13‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

You cannot build on the foundation of Christ with sin. This is about fruitful works and unfruitful works. Fruitful works will be rewarded in heaven. Unfruitful works will not. Neither of these works represent sin. There is only ONE atonement for sin that is Jesus Christ who sacrificed Himself to pay for ALL our sins not some of them.

“And although you were previously alienated and hostile in attitude, engaged in evil deeds, yet He has now reconciled you in His body of flesh through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach— if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭1:21-23‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

The Roman catechism disagrees saying that Christ’s sacrifice does not atone for all our sins and that some sins will only be forgiven after we pay the penalty for our sins after death in purgatory.

The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire. [Cf. 1 Cor 3:15; 1 Pet 1:7.] As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come. [St. Gregory the Great, Dial. 4, 39: PL 77, 396; cf. Mt 12:32-36.]"

1472. "To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the 'eternal punishment' of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the 'temporal punishment' of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.

This doctrine contradicts Paul’s statements “holy and blameless beyond reproach” According to the catechism those who are in Christ are not beyond reproach.

Once our sins have been forgiven God will no longer remember them.

For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified. And the Holy Spirit also testifies to us; for after saying, “THIS IS THE COVENANT WHICH I WILL MAKE WITH THEM AFTER THOSE DAYS, DECLARES THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS UPON THEIR HEARTS, AND WRITE THEM ON THEIR MIND,” He then says, “AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL NO LONGER REMEMBER.Now where there is forgiveness of these things, an offering for sin is no longer required. Therefore, brothers and sisters, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, through His flesh, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let’s approach God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭10:14-22‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

There is no judgement for those who abide In Christ.

“The one who believes in Him is not judged; the one who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:18‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

So how can we be Holy and blameless beyond reproach and God will not remember our sins but yet we must be punished for these sins? There’s a good reason why the RCC is completely alone in this doctrine.
 
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The problem today is that Purgatory is no longer packaged by the RCC as a place of torment where one is punished for one's temporal sins; rather, it is being presented as a pleasant sojourn like a refreshing shower where one cleans up so one can enter heaven. Thus, indulgences have become utterly useless and meaningless.

That’s not how it was described at the council of Florence where the doctrine was formulated.

Also, if truly penitent people die in the love of God before they have made satisfaction for acts and omissions by worthy fruits of repentance, their souls are cleansed after death by cleansing pains; and the suffrages of the living faithful avail them in giving relief from such pains, that is, sacrifices of masses, prayers, almsgiving and other acts of devotion which have been customarily performed by some of the faithful for others of the faithful in accordance with the church's ordinances.

Council of Florence session 6 July 6 1439AD
 
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Unless Hades/Sheol/Purgatory are the same place.
Oh no! I see that there's been some discussion about that post before me, but you'd better check into this for your own sake as a Catholic. Even though Purgatory has lately been re-invented, it never was and isn't now the same as Hades or Sheol.
 
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bbbbbbb

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1 Corinthians 3:11-15
11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

So, please tell us what is burned in this passage. Is there any mention of purging or of temporal sins being purged?
 
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bbbbbbb

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That’s not how it was described at the council of Florence where the doctrine was formulated.

Also, if truly penitent people die in the love of God before they have made satisfaction for acts and omissions by worthy fruits of repentance, their souls are cleansed after death by cleansing pains; and the suffrages of the living faithful avail them in giving relief from such pains, that is, sacrifices of masses, prayers, almsgiving and other acts of devotion which have been customarily performed by some of the faithful for others of the faithful in accordance with the church's ordinances.

Council of Florence session 6 July 6 1439AD

Quite true. How times do change!
 
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So, please tell us what is burned in this passage. Is there any mention of purging or of temporal sins being purged?
Oh no! I see that there's been some discussion about that post before me, but you'd better check into this for your own sake as a Catholic. Even though Purgatory has lately been re-invented, it never was and isn't now the same as Hades or Sheol.
As Saint Augustine said: “But by the prayers of the holy Church, and by the salvific sacrifice, and by the alms which are given for their spirits, there is no doubt that the dead are aided, that the Lord might deal more mercifully with them than their sins would deserve. The whole Church observes this practice which was handed down by the Fathers: that it prays for those who have died in the communion of the Body and Blood of Christ, when they are commemorated in their own place in the sacrifice itself; and the sacrifice is offered also in memory of them, on their behalf. If, then, works of mercy are celebrated for the sake of those who are being remembered, who would hesitate to recommend them, on whose behalf prayers to God are not offered in vain? It is not at all to be doubted that such prayers are of profit to the dead; but for such of them as lived before their death in a way that makes it possible for these things to be useful to them after death” (Sermons, 172:2).
 
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