Purgatory

[Major1]

How do you reconcile this:


With This:

TWO totally different comment on TWO totally different situations my friend.

The "Futurist" method of understanding the Bible says that the "Great White Throne Judgment" seen in Revelation 20 is when the resurrected bodies (lost dead of all ages)
who have DIED are placed with their spirits and then they are judged (Pronounced guilty) and then placed in the Lake of Fire just as the Bible states.

"Death ends all choices" is simply a comment of normal common sense.

When we die we are dead. The dead have no ability to make any more decisions.
If we are lost. Our spirit goes to Sheol/Torments waiting on the 2nd Resurrection and the Great White Throne Judgment.

If we are saved our spirit goes to heaven and we are then waiting on the 1st Resurrection (Rapture).

It really was not that hard to grasp! If you read the Bible it will become very clear to you.

 

[Major1]

I greatly appreciate the fact that you established that the word "Purgatory" is never used in any English (or other language, for that matter) translation of the Bible.

That is the truth. Not only is the word Purgatory not found in any translation.....
there is not even a suggestion of such a place or an event.

It is completely a man thought out false teaching from the RCC.

Matt. 7:13-14, Jesus tells us that there are only 2 choices in life.......
(1) "Enter by the narrow gate. (2)For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few."

Again, only two options are provided. There is no third option.

 

[Major1]

Already addressed in my post #38

In post # 38 you posted 1 Corinthians 15:54-56.

That Scripture says.........
"So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law".

I actually thought you were kidding me. Again.....when you read those Scriptures it is clear that there is no one single word about a place where anyone goes to cleanse their sin. Where is the word "PURGATORY"??????
Where is the idea of a place where sin is purified and removed?????

My suggestion is that you do the actual BIBLE study instead of reading RCC apologetic web sites.

That specific Scripture is Paul explaining what happens at the Rapture of believers.

We as sinners must be changed....."Glorified" so that we can stand before a holy God. Our bodies are corrupted by sin and it has to be removed. The born again believers will not taste death at this event but will be glorified and removed from the earth to heaven.

First though.....the dead in Christ will be resurrected and then who remain will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air!

 

[Albion]

Again.....when you read those Scriptures it is clear that there is no one single word about a place where anyone goes to cleanse their sin. Where is the word "PURGATORY"??????
Where is the idea of a place where sin is purified and removed?????

The fact that there is no mention of a Purgatory in the Bible is important. Nor, for that matter, is there any synonym for the word.

But this invention of the Medieval Church was called "Purgatory" by the church for a reason. That is, the suffering that is supposed to occur in Purgatory is intended to Purge sin, as well as some residual stain of sins already forgiven (!).

That means that the recent move of the Catholic church to keep the name, "Purgatory," while doing away with the purging and, in its place, describe "Purgatory" as a brief re-orientation session (called by some commentators a "celestial washroom") is telltale to say the least.

 

[concretecamper]

What is hilarious is that we have 2 protestants (who many on this forum have called anti-Catholic) who disagree on Baptism and the Eucharist showing disagreement on what the Church teaches about Purgatory. They say reality is funnier than fiction, I would say this is the case here.

If anyone would like a genuine Catholic explanation, I would encourage them to ask the question in OBOB.

 

[bbbbbbb]

What is hilarious is that we have 2 protestants (who many on this forum have called anti-Catholic) who disagree on Baptism and the Eucharist showing disagreement on what the Church teaches about Purgatory. They say reality is funnier than fiction, I would say this is the case here.

If anyone would like a genuine Catholic explanation, I would encourage them to ask the question in OBOB.

Actually, the Catechism of the Catholic Church is probably the most reliable source for information regarding this unique teaching of this denomination. Here is the definition found there -

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent.

 

[concretecamper]

Actually, the Catechism of the Catholic Church is probably the most reliable source for information regarding this unique teaching of this denomination. Here is the definition found there -

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent.

There has been some silly accusations in the dialogue I referenced. I would still suggest that anyone who wishes to understand the Catholic teaching on Purgatory ask the question in OBOB.


Here is the rest of the text of the paragraph you copied and pasted.. funny how you omitted it.

The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come

 

[bbbbbbb]

There has been some silly accusations in the dialogue I referenced. I would still suggest that anyone who wishes to understand the Catholic teaching on Purgatory ask the question in OBOB.


Here is the rest of the text of the paragraph you copied and pasted.. funny how you omitted it.

The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come

I chose to focus on the definition of Purgatory, rather than the theology. Hence I quoted only the definition.

 

[concretecamper]

I chose to focus on the definition of Purgatory, rather than the theology. Hence I quoted only the definition.

yeah, ok

 

[Major1]

The fact that there is no mention of a Purgatory in the Bible is important. Nor, for that matter, is there any synonym for the word.

But this invention of the Medieval Church was called "Purgatory" by the church for a reason. That is, the suffering that is supposed to occur in Purgatory is intended to Purge sin, as well as some residual stain of sins already forgiven (!).

That means that the recent move of the Catholic church to keep the name, "Purgatory," while doing away with the purging and, in its place, describe "Purgatory" as a brief re-orientation session (called by some commentators a "celestial washroom") is telltale to say the least.

You are so very right!

If any Catholic believer wishes to do the work instead of accepting what is presented to you here then According to the Handbook for Today’s Catholic, page 47,

“If you die in the love of God but possess any stains of sin, such stains are cleansed away in a purifying process called Purgatory. These stains of sin are primarily the temporal punishment due to venial or mortal sins already forgiven but for which sufficient penance was not done during your lifetime.”

But there is more because the Catholic Catechism, paragraph 1030, says that Purgatory is for “All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation, but after death, they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.”

That means in plain country boy English that what Jesus Christ did on the cross was NOT enough to save the sinner!!!!!

Now when anyone read the Bible, and that is actually the key that seperates the Catholic from the Protestant, and we see the Pauline doctrine of justification by grace through faith, how is it possible that an afterlife cleansing through punishment is necessary for a Christian who has trusted in Jesus to cleanse him from all His sins? To me.........that is just staggering!!!!!

We then must ask.....Wasn’t Jesus’ punishment for our transgressions sufficient?
From the Catholic position the answer is a resounding NO!

But then, didn’t Jesus Christ take our place in that He suffered our death?
Why YES He did.

It would seem that the words of Christ, in John 19:30......... “It is finished,” do not mean that the cleansing of our souls was completed on the cross, if you accept and believe Catholic tradition.

I am glad that I do not believe in such a teaching. If Purgatory was a real thing, then all of us would live in fear our whole lives and we would have no peace and no joy and absolutely no comfort when we approach death.

God bless those who accept such an insidious thought!

 

[Albion]

Actually, the Catechism of the Catholic Church is probably the most reliable source for information regarding this unique teaching of this denomination. Here is the definition found there -

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent.

Good. Now notice how the wording is carefully chosen in order to bridge the difference between the old (500 years) teaching and the current one--

It's not a purging from or punishment for sin anymore, although it's still being called Purgatory. It's merely a purification, we are told.

That doesn't sound very intimidating, does it? Purification.

Yet the verses which refer to "fire" and '"burned" are still commonly used (by people who believe in Purgatory) in order to "prove" that it is Biblical.

One's experience in Purgatory is "entirely different from the punishment of the damned," we read. Well yes, it always was "different"-- because punishment in Purgatory was said to be temporal (in time) punishment for sin, i.e. not forever. Hell, as we all know, isn't just temporary punishment! So that's different.

Hmmm. Could it be, however, the point is to allow the reader to conclude something else, that the difference isn't how long one is punished, but rather that Purgatory isn't punishment AT ALL, and that this is the real difference we are expected to take from a reading of that Catechism entry.

 

[Albion]

I am glad that I do not believe in such a teaching. If Purgatory was a real thing, then all of us would live in fear our whole lives and we would have no peace and no joy and absolutely no comfort when we approach death.!

Indeed, the traditional teaching held that everyone who isn't bound for Hell is bound for Purgatory...and then to Heaven later on. And that the nature of the punishment in either place is the same.

Coupled to that fact was a lot of teaching about the suffering of those in Purgatory--the "Poor Souls" they were called. Well, if Purgatory were just a quickie cleansing of the residual effects of sin, etc, no one would be calling the "inhabitants" of Purgatory "Poor Souls" in need of our prayers and indulgences, would they? No.

 

[parousia70]

TWO totally different comment on TWO totally different situations my friend.

Not if we use that common sense you mentioned.

Common sense would dictate that if death brings the final decision as to whether one is saved or lost, that no other decision can be made afterwards, then such “judgment” as to one’s salvation status is finalized at death.
You apparently agree.

When we die we are dead....

If we are lost. Our spirit goes to Sheol/Torments waiting on the 2nd Resurrection and the Great White Throne Judgment.

If we are saved our spirit goes to heaven

Again, as I pointed out in my post #38, such a position is scripturally untenable unless you are prepared to assert 1 Corinthians 15:54-56 and Revelation 20:12-15 is already fulfilled.

Sheol/Hades is the pre resurrection, pre judgment holding place OF ALL PEOPLE.

No one goes to Heaven until AFTER the judgment.

No one goes to Heaven until these passage are fulfilled.

No one.

and we are then waiting on the 1st Resurrection

We aren’t waiting on the first resurrection.
The resurrection of Jesus, which I’m confident you agree is already past, is the First Resurrection.

If you would read your Bible and not rely on the later added fallible traditions of men, You would know that you can't have a "First resurrection" that isn't actually "First".

The First Resurrection is not something Jesus does, it's something Jesus IS.

That bears repeating:

The First Resurrection is not something Jesus does, it's something Jesus IS.

"I am the resurrection and the Life"

Jesus Christ IS the First Resurrection, and on those that take part in it, the 2nd death has no power.

Jesus Christ was the first to rise out of the dead. Jesus was, literally, the "first resurrection." This fact, well attested by the writings of the New Testament, MUST form the basis for understanding Revelation 20:5-6:

"This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power" (Revelation 20:5-6)

The first resurrection was Jesus Christ:

Revelation 1:5

Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the first-born out of the dead Acts 26:23
Christ should suffer and...be the first that should rise from the dead

Colossians 1:18
He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead

1 Corinthians 15:20
Christ hath risen out of the dead--the first-fruits of those sleeping he became


Jesus Christ was, plainly, the first resurrection. This fact forms the basis of St. John's depiction of the tribulation martyr saints becoming full partakers of the "first resurrection" in Revelation 20--everything Christ received by his death and resurrection is granted to them. Revelation 20:4-6, therefore, depicts the reality of Pauline theology concerning the identity Christ's followers had "in Him." Paul had taught that the saints were to become partakers of Christ's own reign and victory over death. Paul, with his detailed theology of our baptism into the very death and resurrection of Jesus (Rom 6:3-14), taught that the saints had co-resurrection and co-enthronement in the realized resurrection and enthronement of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 20:4-6 is a narrative depiction of the saints' realization of the glorious promise Paul held out for them in his teachings--the saints are depicted as having attained the goal for which they all strove. As Paul taught, their resurrection and reign was "in Christ," and their sufferings and martyrdoms were honored by God with the reward of partaking in Christ's own resurrection, enthronement, and reign. They realized the promise of Paul's teaching that the saints were truly to take part in the first resurrection, the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Truly, on these the second death has no power (Rev 20:6).

It’s not that hard to grasp friend.
If you would just read your Bible it will become very clear to you.

 

[Valletta]

You are so very right!

If any Catholic believer wishes to do the work instead of accepting what is presented to you here then According to the Handbook for Today’s Catholic, page 47,

“If you die in the love of God but possess any stains of sin, such stains are cleansed away in a purifying process called Purgatory. These stains of sin are primarily the temporal punishment due to venial or mortal sins already forgiven but for which sufficient penance was not done during your lifetime.”

But there is more because the Catholic Catechism, paragraph 1030, says that Purgatory is for “All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation, but after death, they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.”

That means in plain country boy English that what Jesus Christ did on the cross was NOT enough to save the sinner!!!!!

Now when anyone read the Bible, and that is actually the key that seperates the Catholic from the Protestant, and we see the Pauline doctrine of justification by grace through faith, how is it possible that an afterlife cleansing through punishment is necessary for a Christian who has trusted in Jesus to cleanse him from all His sins? To me.........that is just staggering!!!!!

We then must ask.....Wasn’t Jesus’ punishment for our transgressions sufficient?
From the Catholic position the answer is a resounding NO!

But then, didn’t Jesus Christ take our place in that He suffered our death?
Why YES He did.

It would seem that the words of Christ, in John 19:30......... “It is finished,” do not mean that the cleansing of our souls was completed on the cross, if you accept and believe Catholic tradition.

I am glad that I do not believe in such a teaching. If Purgatory was a real thing, then all of us would live in fear our whole lives and we would have no peace and no joy and absolutely no comfort when we approach death.

God bless those who accept such an insidious thought!

Wrong. As an analogy, the fact that some people go to hell does not mean that Protestants teach that Christ's sacrifice was insufficient or wanting.

 

[Major1]

Wrong. As an analogy, the fact that some people go to hell does not mean that Protestants teach that Christ's sacrifice was insufficient or wanting.

So you are saying that the posted words from the RCC Catechisms are wrong??????

Also, the posted comment from Handbook for Today’s Catholic, page 47, is wrong as well????

Those posted Catholic productions emphatically say that the blood of Jesus Christ is not enough to save the lost man.

So then.....who is wrong?

 

[Major1]

Not if we use that common sense you mentioned.

Common sense would dictate that if death brings the final decision as to whether one is saved or lost, that no other decision can be made afterwards, then such “judgment” as to one’s salvation status is finalized at death.
You apparently agree.



Again, as I pointed out in my post #38, such a position is scripturally untenable unless you are prepared to assert 1 Corinthians 15:54-56 and Revelation 20:12-15 is already fulfilled.

Sheol/Hades is the pre resurrection, pre judgment holding place OF ALL PEOPLE.

No one goes to Heaven until AFTER the judgment.

No one goes to Heaven until these passage are fulfilled.

No one.



We aren’t waiting on the first resurrection.
The resurrection of Jesus, which I’m confident you agree is already past, is the First Resurrection.

If you would read your Bible and not rely on the later added fallible traditions of men, You would know that you can't have a "First resurrection" that isn't actually "First".

The First Resurrection is not something Jesus does, it's something Jesus IS.

That bears repeating:

The First Resurrection is not something Jesus does, it's something Jesus IS.

"I am the resurrection and the Life"

Jesus Christ IS the First Resurrection, and on those that take part in it, the 2nd death has no power.

Jesus Christ was the first to rise out of the dead. Jesus was, literally, the "first resurrection." This fact, well attested by the writings of the New Testament, MUST form the basis for understanding Revelation 20:5-6:

"This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power" (Revelation 20:5-6)

The first resurrection was Jesus Christ:

Revelation 1:5

Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the first-born out of the dead Acts 26:23
Christ should suffer and...be the first that should rise from the dead

Colossians 1:18
He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead

1 Corinthians 15:20
Christ hath risen out of the dead--the first-fruits of those sleeping he became


Jesus Christ was, plainly, the first resurrection. This fact forms the basis of St. John's depiction of the tribulation martyr saints becoming full partakers of the "first resurrection" in Revelation 20--everything Christ received by his death and resurrection is granted to them. Revelation 20:4-6, therefore, depicts the reality of Pauline theology concerning the identity Christ's followers had "in Him." Paul had taught that the saints were to become partakers of Christ's own reign and victory over death. Paul, with his detailed theology of our baptism into the very death and resurrection of Jesus (Rom 6:3-14), taught that the saints had co-resurrection and co-enthronement in the realized resurrection and enthronement of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 20:4-6 is a narrative depiction of the saints' realization of the glorious promise Paul held out for them in his teachings--the saints are depicted as having attained the goal for which they all strove. As Paul taught, their resurrection and reign was "in Christ," and their sufferings and martyrdoms were honored by God with the reward of partaking in Christ's own resurrection, enthronement, and reign. They realized the promise of Paul's teaching that the saints were truly to take part in the first resurrection, the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Truly, on these the second death has no power (Rev 20:6).

It’s not that hard to grasp friend.
If you would just read your Bible it will become very clear to you.

That is a long post to simply say that you do not accept the Word of God.

"Common Sense" has nothing to do with accepting the Bible as the Word of God.

You said.............
"Sheol/Hades is the pre resurrection, pre judgment holding place OF ALL PEOPLE."

Right....but also wrong.

Sheol (Hebrew) /Hades (Greek) is hell. It was separated by a gulf. On one side was "Torments" and that is where the spirits of the lost of all the ages are located and will stay there until the Great White Throne Judgment in Rev. 20.

Luke 16:26.........
"And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence."

On the other side of that Gulf is "Paradise" and that WAS where the believers in God spirits went. It was that Paradise Jesus told the thief he would be in in Luke 23"43...........
""Truly I tell you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."

Paradise was emptied by Christ and those spirits went with Christ to heaven at His assention which is what we see in Ephesians 4:8 makes this clear: "Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men."
Paradise is no longer in the center of the Earth, but is now in Heaven.


Then you said..............
"No one goes to Heaven until AFTER the judgment."

WRONG!!!!

If what you say is true, then how do you account for Elijah and Moses at the Transfiguration of Christ?

2 Corinthians 5:1-8 that if our body dies we have a body from God that is immortal and that we are well pleased to be absent from our present body and to be present with the Lord. There is no sense of some intermediate state of unconsciousness in Paul’s view. Fourth, in Philippians 1:21-24, Paul expresses his great desire to depart from this life and be with Christ which is “far better.” Again, this statement does not make sense if Paul thought that he would be for an indeterminate time in an unconscious state.

Then you said ..........
"The resurrection of Jesus, which I’m confident you agree is already past, is the First Resurrection."

Also WRONG.. Jesus is the FIRST fruits of the resurrection. What you fail to understand is that the 1 Resurrection is in several stages.

The first resurrection takes place in various stages. Jesus Christ Himself (the “first fruits,” 1 Corinthians 15:20), paved the way for the resurrection of all who believe in Him. There was a resurrection of the Jerusalem saints (Matthew 27:52-53) which should be included in our consideration of the first resurrection. Still to come are the resurrection of “the dead in Christ” at the Lord’s return (1 Thessalonians 4:16) and the resurrection of the martyrs at the end of the Tribulation (Revelation 20:4).

Revelation 20:12-13 identifies those comprising the second resurrection as the wicked judged by God at the great white throne judgment prior to being cast into the lake of fire. The second resurrection, then, is the raising of all unbelievers; the second resurrection is connected to the second death. It corresponds with Jesus’ teaching of the “resurrection of damnation” (John 5:29).

The event which divides the first and second resurrections seems to be the millennial kingdom. The last of the righteous are raised to reign “with Christ a thousand years” (Revelation 20:4), but the “rest of the dead [that is, the wicked] lived not again until the thousand years were finished” (Revelation 20:5).

This is turning out to be a very long post and I hate long posts. I can see that you are in need of some Bible teaching and I will be glad to help you.

Please ask me ONE (1) question at a time and I will be glad to help your understanding of the Scriptures.

 

[parousia70]

Paradise was emptied by Christ and those spirits went with Christ to heaven at His assention which is what we see in Ephesians 4:8 makes this clear: "Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men."
Paradise is no longer in the center of the Earth, but is now in Heaven.

Incorrect.
This is, sadly, an all too common misreading of Ephesians 4:7-10, which could be corrected if people would only read their Bibles, and let scripture interpret scripture, instead of interpreting it the way that simply "sounds good" to them.

The "captivity" that a triumphant King would "lead captive" was his bound enemies. The victorious king would lead a parade through town, marching his bound prisoners in a public display to shame them and gloat over them (Col 1:15 uses this concept too). That is why bible expositors discussing Eph 4:8 often point to the broken dominion of the enemies Satan (1 Jn 3:8; Col 1:15), sin (Rom 6:14), and death (Rom 6:9 ) -- these were the "captivity" that Christ led away as his captives. So the "captivity" one leads captive are one's enemies who have been triumphed over. This notion is also the sense of Psalm 68:17-18 concerning the exodus, Sinai and the defeat of the pagans in the promised land.

Additionally, in the spectacle of the public parade the King receives gifts in homage (Ps 68:18,29,31) and he generously distributes the spoils of war to his own citizens (Ps 68:19). With Christ, he distributes the spoils of his war unto the Church in the form of the charismata given unto mankind, making them Chosen apostles, prophets, pastors, evangelists, and teachers with him (Eph 4:8,11)

Here's Matthew Henry with some fine scholarship on the subject for your edification:

"As great conquerors, when they rode in their triumphal chariots, used to be attended with the most illustrious of their captives led in chains, and were wont to scatter their largesses and bounty among the soldiers and other spectators of their triumphs, so Christ, when he ascended into heaven, as a triumphant conqueror, led captivity captive. It is a phrase used in the Old Testament to signify a conquest over enemies, especially over such as formerly had led others captive; see Jdg. 5:12. Captivity is here put for captives, and signifies all our spiritual enemies, who brought us into captivity before. He conquered those who had conquered us; such as sin, the devil, and death. Indeed, he triumphed over these on the cross; but the triumph was completed at his ascension, when he became Lord over all, and had the keys of death and hades put into his hands."

Contrary to your assertion, The "captivity" that Christ "lead away captive" were His defeated enemies, and not the saved souls in Hades.

Resurrection is the ONLY vehicle by which the saved dead are RAISED from Hades into the Heights of Heaven. That does not happen, indeed CAN NOT HAPPEN, until 1 Corinthians 15:55-56 and Revelation 20:12-15 are FULFILLED.

 

[Valletta]

So you are saying that the posted words from the RCC Catechisms are wrong??????

Also, the posted comment from Handbook for Today’s Catholic, page 47, is wrong as well????

Those posted Catholic productions emphatically say that the blood of Jesus Christ is not enough to save the lost man.

So then.....who is wrong?[/QUOTE
You're missing my point. Anyone can argue that Christ's sacrifice is not enough, or not sufficient (these are not Catholic words) for anything that does not put every single human being in Heaven at this moment.

 

[Major1]

Incorrect.
This is, sadly, an all too common misreading of Ephesians 4:7-10, which could be corrected if people would only read their Bibles, and let scripture interpret scripture, instead of interpreting it the way that simply "sounds good" to them.

The "captivity" that a triumphant King would "lead captive" was his bound enemies. The victorious king would lead a parade through town, marching his bound prisoners in a public display to shame them and gloat over them (Col 1:15 uses this concept too). That is why bible expositors discussing Eph 4:8 often point to the broken dominion of the enemies Satan (1 Jn 3:8; Col 1:15), sin (Rom 6:14), and death (Rom 6:9 ) -- these were the "captivity" that Christ led away as his captives. So the "captivity" one leads captive are one's enemies who have been triumphed over. This notion is also the sense of Psalm 68:17-18 concerning the exodus, Sinai and the defeat of the pagans in the promised land.

Additionally, in the spectacle of the public parade the King receives gifts in homage (Ps 68:18,29,31) and he generously distributes the spoils of war to his own citizens (Ps 68:19). With Christ, he distributes the spoils of his war unto the Church in the form of the charismata given unto mankind, making them Chosen apostles, prophets, pastors, evangelists, and teachers with him (Eph 4:8,11)

Here's Matthew Henry with some fine scholarship on the subject for your edification:

"As great conquerors, when they rode in their triumphal chariots, used to be attended with the most illustrious of their captives led in chains, and were wont to scatter their largesses and bounty among the soldiers and other spectators of their triumphs, so Christ, when he ascended into heaven, as a triumphant conqueror, led captivity captive. It is a phrase used in the Old Testament to signify a conquest over enemies, especially over such as formerly had led others captive; see Jdg. 5:12. Captivity is here put for captives, and signifies all our spiritual enemies, who brought us into captivity before. He conquered those who had conquered us; such as sin, the devil, and death. Indeed, he triumphed over these on the cross; but the triumph was completed at his ascension, when he became Lord over all, and had the keys of death and hades put into his hands."

Contrary to your assertion, The "captivity" that Christ "lead away captive" were His defeated enemies, and not the saved souls in Hades.

Resurrection is the ONLY vehicle by which the saved dead are RAISED from Hades into the Heights of Heaven. That does not happen, indeed CAN NOT HAPPEN, until 1 Corinthians 15:55-56 and Revelation 20:12-15 are FULFILLED.

The Five Phases of the First Resurrection are.............

(1) Jesus and the Old Testament saints to Heaven at His ascension. Psalms 68:18KJV, Ephesians 4:8KJV

(2) The Holy Spirit and the church age saints are caught up to heaven before the antichrist Is given power in the Christian nations. 2Thessalonians 2:3-12KJV, and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17KJV also see John16:7-8KJV

(3)The mid tribulation catching up will include the two witnesses Revelation11:3,7-14KJV, the 144,000 sealed Jews from Revelation chapter 7KJV who where redeemed from the earth. See Revelation 14:1-4KJV, and the redeemed dead saints from the first half of the Tribulation. See Revelation 15:1-4KJV

(4) The dead saints from the last half of the tribulation are redeemed from the earth after the tribulation. Revelation 20:4KJV

(5) The dead saints from the Kingdom age will be judged at the great white throne judgment along with the second resurrection sinners. Revelation 20:11-15KJV

 

[Major1]

Incorrect.
This is, sadly, an all too common misreading of Ephesians 4:7-10, which could be corrected if people would only read their Bibles, and let scripture interpret scripture, instead of interpreting it the way that simply "sounds good" to them.

The "captivity" that a triumphant King would "lead captive" was his bound enemies. The victorious king would lead a parade through town, marching his bound prisoners in a public display to shame them and gloat over them (Col 1:15 uses this concept too). That is why bible expositors discussing Eph 4:8 often point to the broken dominion of the enemies Satan (1 Jn 3:8; Col 1:15), sin (Rom 6:14), and death (Rom 6:9 ) -- these were the "captivity" that Christ led away as his captives. So the "captivity" one leads captive are one's enemies who have been triumphed over. This notion is also the sense of Psalm 68:17-18 concerning the exodus, Sinai and the defeat of the pagans in the promised land.

Additionally, in the spectacle of the public parade the King receives gifts in homage (Ps 68:18,29,31) and he generously distributes the spoils of war to his own citizens (Ps 68:19). With Christ, he distributes the spoils of his war unto the Church in the form of the charismata given unto mankind, making them Chosen apostles, prophets, pastors, evangelists, and teachers with him (Eph 4:8,11)

Here's Matthew Henry with some fine scholarship on the subject for your edification:

"As great conquerors, when they rode in their triumphal chariots, used to be attended with the most illustrious of their captives led in chains, and were wont to scatter their largesses and bounty among the soldiers and other spectators of their triumphs, so Christ, when he ascended into heaven, as a triumphant conqueror, led captivity captive. It is a phrase used in the Old Testament to signify a conquest over enemies, especially over such as formerly had led others captive; see Jdg. 5:12. Captivity is here put for captives, and signifies all our spiritual enemies, who brought us into captivity before. He conquered those who had conquered us; such as sin, the devil, and death. Indeed, he triumphed over these on the cross; but the triumph was completed at his ascension, when he became Lord over all, and had the keys of death and hades put into his hands."

Contrary to your assertion, The "captivity" that Christ "lead away captive" were His defeated enemies, and not the saved souls in Hades.

Resurrection is the ONLY vehicle by which the saved dead are RAISED from Hades into the Heights of Heaven. That does not happen, indeed CAN NOT HAPPEN, until 1 Corinthians 15:55-56 and Revelation 20:12-15 are FULFILLED.

I am sorry but I can not accept your idea.

Ephesians 4:8. Therefore He says:.......
“When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, And gave gifts to men.”

Paul appears to be quoting here from Psalm 68:18. Paul’s reason for the quotation is found at the end, namely, that Christ gave gifts to men. But let me deal with the first part of the quotation first.

The quote says, when He ascended. Certainly, In Psalm 68, this has in view a victorious king returning to Jerusalem from battle. And remember, Jerusalem sits on a hill, so when the king return, he ascends the hill. But here, Paul uses it to refer to Christ’s ascension back to heaven which happened forty days after his resurrection (Acts 1:3-9).

READ the Scriptures and you can see that the rest of verse 8 tells us what occurred when Christ ascended. He led captivity captive and he gave gifts to men. What does it mean that he led captivity captive?

What has captivated us? What has put us into bondage? What has enslaved us? Scripture tell us that we were enslaved by sin and death and Satan. And it is these that Christ took captive. Colossians 2:13-15 says,......
“And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.”

This is an amazing truth! Think about it with me for a moment. We were enslaved to sin and death and Satan. And rather than just set us free, Christ took prisoner that which had enslaved us! Because of this, we know that these things can never come and enslave us again.

Ephesians 4:9.....
(Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth?

This means that Jesus went to the place of the dead. It was called Paradise or Abrahams bosom. As described already, it is a holding compartment for Old Testament saints prior to Christ’s death and resurrection. It was kind of a holding tank—they do not suffer there.

Isa 44:23 indicates that.....
“the lower parts of the earth” refers to death or the grave.

The "Torments " side of Sheol is still full but Paradise is now empty.
Ephesians 4:10. He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)

Now this verse also proves to us that the descension of Christ in verse 9 was His coming from heaven to earth, because here, in verse 10, the ascension of Christ is him going from earth to heaven. These two events, Christ’s descension and ascension are the two bookends of Christ’s life. He came from heaven to earth and then went from earth to heaven. He came from glory to humility, and then from humility back to glory.

In fact, look at the two contrasting phrases in these verses. Verse 9 says he went to the lower part of the earth, verse 10 says he ascended far above all the heaven.

The question for some Christians is “Why? Why did Christ have to go back to heaven? Why did Christ leave? Why did Christ ascend? Wouldn’t it be easier to believe in the resurrected Christ if He was still here, walking around on the earth? Wouldn’t it be easier to have an intimate relationship with Christ if you could go to him and talk to him in person? Why didn’t Christ stay?”

The reason is the final phrase in verse 10. Christ left this earth so that He might fill all things. If Christ were here, on this earth, in physical form, can you imagine the line of people who would want to talk to him? Even if you were able to save enough money for travel expenses to go to him, you would have to wait in line for months just to talk to him for a few short minutes because of all the other people who want to see Him. But now, because He went back to Heaven, we can all come before the throne of grace any time we want for any length of time.

Read more at.....When Jesus Gave Gifts to Men (Ephesians 4:7-10) | Redeeming God