Purgatory!

[Erose]

I know that others have commented upon these questions, and so I may sound like a parrot in some of these but I felt the need to answer these questions, which I do think are good questions to ask.

1. Have the "anathemas" of Trent been overturned? If not, why do you say we're your brothers in Christ? If not, then do they apply to all who hold those beliefs or just some?

The statements that are anathemas, are a tradition method of writing a definitive statement. Thus anathema statements are what we call dogma, which is the surest level (for lack of a better word) of doctrine.

All properly baptized Christians, no matter what their state or condition in life, are have been grafted to Christ through the sacrament of Baptism. Thus if you have been properly baptized and if I have been properly baptized, we are brothers whether we like it or not.

The anathemas (or heretical positions) do not effect the spiritual relationship, just like two estranged brothers who have disowned each other are no less physical brothers, even though they hate each other.

2. Has Christ perfected all whom He has sanctified? If so, then what is left to accomplish in the mythical land of Purgatory?

Yes, baptism purifies us and makes a clean as the purest snow. The problem occurs after baptism, when we go out into the world and begin to commit those sins which we wish we would not do. St. John tells us that he who says he doesn't sin deceives himself, and the truth is not in him. (1Jn 1:8).

The best analogy would be the Jews in Exodus. They went through the Red Sea, and through the process their old life was washed away (the Egyptians drowning), and as St. Peter points out that the passing through the Red Sea is a "type" of Baptism. But even though they were clean they went through the desert and they began to sin, and were corrected and punished, and then sin again, and were corrected and punished, and so on. We go through the same process as Christians. So purging of our sinful inclinations, and restitution for the sins that we do is part of the Christian life.

3. Is the purpose of Purgatory for the sinner to expiate his own sins?

No the purpose of Purgatory is for God to finish cleaning us up. God does the work in Purgatory, and the individual.

4. How do you know the saints you "venerate" are not currently in Purgatory?

Due to a heavy evaluation process, by the Vatican; which is extremely detailed and more than what can be commented here. I would recommend looking it up on the web. The only exception really would be martyrs. Martyrs are believed to go straight to heaven, for they have shown through their actions, that they have that "no greater love than one who is willing to lay down his life for a friend" love.

5. How does an indulgence reduce time in Purgatory?

How does it? We don't know quite honestly. We just know from the teachings of Maccabees that indulgences and prayers for the dead do help them in some way.

Likewise, how do other people's prayers reduce a person's time in Purgatory?

Again we don't know. We just know that they do.

Wouldn't this mean that it's possible for a Catholic in Purgatory to be taken out of the over before he's done, so to speak?

We are speaking about the after life. I am pretty sure time (if time has any effect upon a spirit) works differently for those who are spirit only. But no one will be done with their purging until they are made clean enough to enter into the Presence of God and see Him face to face. As I stated in my previous post, only the pure of heart shall see God.

I

look forward to hearing how I don't understand Catholic doctrine from you.

Again thank you for the thoughtful questions. Hopefully I answered them to your satisfaction. If not please let me know.

May God bless you in all that you do this day.

 

[South Bound]

To simplify, purgatory is a state or condition of cleansing, that occurs after the death of someone who is saved and yet is not pure enough to enter God's presence. This state of cleansing is temporal.

And how do you reconcile this with 1 John 1:7, which says "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin."

Do you not believe the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin? If so, then what's left to be cleansed? If not, why not?

1) Temporal punishment due to sin: When Christ died upon the cross for us, He took away from us the eternal punishment due to our sin, but He did not take away the temporal punishment due to our sin.

Where does the Bible ever say there is temporal punishment for sin? In all of the passages where we see that Jesus is the propitiation for our sin, why doesn't the Bible, out of all of those verses, ever make the distinction between those eternal punishment and temporal punishment?

This is best illustrated in 2nd Samuel:

2 Sam 12: [13] And David said to Nathan: I have sinned against the Lord. And Nathan said to David: The Lord also hath taken away thy sin: thou shalt not die. [14] Nevertheless, because thou hast given occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme, for this thing, the child that is born to thee, shall surely die.

In this passage, God saved David from permanent death, but not from temporal punishment due to his sin. Even though God forgave David, David's son was going to die.

And you believe this is evidence of Purgatory? Wow! Talk about exegesis!

How on Earth did you get the idea that this verse is about Purgatory? The death of David's son wasn't a punishment, but a consequence of sin.

We also find evidence of this in Hebrews 12: [5] And you have forgotten the consolation, which speaks to you, as unto children, saying: My son, neglect not the discipline of the Lord; neither be thou wearied whilst thou art rebuked by him. [6] For whom the Lord loves, he chastises; and he scourges every son whom he receives. [7] Persevere under discipline. God deals with you as with his sons; for what son is there, whom the father doth not correct? [8] But if you be without chastisement, whereof all are made partakers, then are you bastards, and not sons. [9] Moreover we have had fathers of our flesh, for instructors, and we reverenced them: shall we not much more obey the Father of spirits, and live? [10] And they indeed for a few days, according to their own pleasure, instructed us: but he, for our profit, that we might receive his sanctification. [11] Now all chastisement for the present indeed seems not to bring with it joy, but sorrow: but afterwards it will yield, to them that are exercised by it, the most peaceable fruit of justice.

Obviously God is a just God, so He is not going to chastise or scourge those that don't deserve it. So one can safely assume that someone that is being chastised by God has done something that God doesn't like, i.e. sin.

Again, where is Purgatory anywhere in this passage?

Another passage to look at is: Mat 5: [25] Be at agreement with thy adversary betimes, whilst thou art in the way with him: lest perhaps the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. [26] Amen I say to thee, thou shalt not go out from thence till thou repay the last farthing. In this passage we see that there is a requirement for sin that is not eternal.

Please cite the whole passage. When taken in context, the passage has nothing to do with Purgatory, but is about anger.

We also see it here: Matt 18: [31] Now his fellow servants seeing what was done, were very much grieved, and they came and told their lord all that was done. [32] Then his lord called him; and said to him: Thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all the debt, because thou besoughtest me: [33] Shouldst not thou then have had compassion also on thy fellow servant, even as I had compassion on thee? [34] And his lord being angry, delivered him to the torturers until he paid all the debt. [35] So also shall my heavenly Father do to you, if you forgive not every one his brother from your hearts.

You realize this is a parable, right? And not about purgatory?

Rev 21: [27] There shall not enter into it anything defiled, or that worketh abomination or maketh a lie, but they that are written in the book of life of the Lamb.

We agree that nothing defiled or that worketh abomination or maketh a lie shall enter into Heaven. The problem is that the Bible tells us that we have Christ's righteousness imputed to us.

Heb 12: [14] Follow peace with all men, and holiness: without which no man shall see God.

Agreed. We are made holy by Christ, not by expiating our sin in Purgatory.

Matt 5: [8] Blessed are the clean of heart: for they shall see God.

And our hearts have been cleansed by Christ.

Jesus also commands us to: [48] Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect. [Matthew 5:48]

Hebrews 10:14 tells us we have been perfected.

1 Cor 3: [11] For other foundation no man can lay, but that which is laid; which is Christ Jesus. [12] Now if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble: [13] Every man's work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man's work, of what sort it is. [14] If any man's work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. [15] If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire. [16] Know you not, that you are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? [17] But if any man violate the temple of God, him shall God destroy. For the temple of God is holy, which you are.

Verse 13 is very explicit that Paul is talking about the day of the Lord which is our own meeting with our Judge after our deaths. In this passage the man that builds upon Christ's foundation, has to be a Christian for an atheist does not build upon an internal foundation of Christ. Those works that he has built up are revealed by fire. Verse 14 outlines those whose works remain (i.e. works of righteousness) and he gets his reward (heaven). In verse 15, some of the works of the Christian are not works of righteousness and they burn. He suffers loss, but in the end he is saved. This refers to the those enduring purgatory. Then you have those Christians in verse 17, who have violated themselves through sin and those God will destroy. So here we see the rewards/punishments of heaven (14), purgatory (15), and hell (17).

Actually, this passage has nothing to do with Purgatory, but is speaking of the Bema Seat Judgment.

Where do you get the idea that this "fire" is in any way related to something that could be called "satispassio", as Rome does?

Purgatory (according to Rome) is for those who are headed to heaven: they died in a state of grace. The fire of purgatory (whether taken literally over time, as Rome obviously indicated for centuries on end, or now metaphorically, as the kinder, gentler Rome seems to indicate) is meant to cleanse away the temporal punishments of sins (again, according to Rome).

There is nothing in this passage about temporal punishments. Besides, there is only one result of the testing in purgatory: everyone ends up in heaven. But there are two results of the testing spoken of here: there are those whose works remain, and they receive a reward. And there are those who works are burned up, but they are saved anyway.

So how does one get from a fire that tests works of Christian leaders, demonstrating who did what they did in life for the glory of Christ, to the fire of purgatory that should only be applied to those having temporal punishments of sin? You sure don't get there by exegesis.

Another passage that I believe support purgatory is:

Mat 12: [31] Therefore I say to you: Every sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men, but the blasphemy of the Spirit shall not be forgiven. [32] And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come.

Purgatory and praying for the dead are tied to the hip and as such both support each other.

Praying for the dead is Unbiblical, also. So, I'm not sure you want to demonstrate something is Biblical by "tying it to the hip" of something that is Unbiblical.

So is praying for the dead Biblical? I say the answer is yes.

Of course you do.

The first passage comes from 2nd Maccabees, which I know is no longer in Protestant Bibles. But for the sake of the argument is important to point out that the Catholic church retained this book within its canon and views it as Canonical.

Translation: "I know 2nd Maccabees isn't in the Bible, but for the sake of looking like I know what I'm talking about, please pretend that it is".

1 Cor 15: [29] Otherwise what shall they do that are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not again at all? why are they then baptized for them? [30] Why also are we in danger every hour? [31] I die daily, I protest by your glory, brethren, which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Here's another good example of you taking something out of context. Did you really not notice that you began the passage at the word "otherwise"??? Didn't it occur to you at all that it might be necessary to see what Paul is contrasting in order to understand the passage?

Where does this passage say anything at all to support prayers for the dead?

1 Tim 1: [16] The Lord give mercy to the house of Onesiphorus: because he hath often refreshed me, and hath not been ashamed of my chain: [17] But when he was come to Rome, he carefully sought me, and found me. [18] The Lord grant unto him to find mercy of the Lord in that day: and in how many things he ministered unto me at Ephesus, thou very well knowest.

And you believe this speaks of praying for the dead because...?

In the first passage quoted Paul is speaking of some form of practice that we have no information concerning

So, if you have no information concerning it, why do you assume you're sure what it means?

which refers to the ability of the living to do something that benefits those that have passed on. He also is using the doctrine of the resurrection of the dead to provide justification for this practice.

You realize Paul is talking about pagans, right?

In the 2nd passage, Paul is referring to Onesiphorus in the past tense and not present as he does with others that he names. From the usage of past tense one could assume that Onesiphorus has already fallen asleep at the writing of this letter. Notice verse 18. Paul is praying that Onesiphorus finds the mercy of the Lord in that day. What day?

First of all, in what hermeneutics class did you learn that speaking of an event or action in the past tense is an indication that the subject is dead???

Chris Rosebrough has a name for this kind of eisegesis: textual harassment.

The point I am trying to make here is that we do have a justification of our belief from Scripture.

No, not really. If you did, then you wouldn't have cited every passage out of context and you wouldn't have had to cite extra-Biblical sources.

You may not agree with my interpretation of these passages

Not only do I not agree, but if I made those arguments, I'd be embarrassed.

 

[South Bound]

All properly baptized Christians, no matter what their state or condition in life, are have been grafted to Christ through the sacrament of Baptism.

According to Rome.

Thus if you have been properly baptized and if I have been properly baptized, we are brothers whether we like it or not.

I disagree. There is still the small matter of doctrine.

The anathemas (or heretical positions) do not effect the spiritual relationship, just like two estranged brothers who have disowned each other are no less physical brothers, even though they hate each other.

You realize that "anathema" means condemned or eternally damned, right?

Yes, baptism purifies us and makes a clean as the purest snow. The problem occurs after baptism, when we go out into the world and begin to commit those sins which we wish we would not do. St. John tells us that he who says he doesn't sin deceives himself, and the truth is not in him. (1Jn 1:8).

The best analogy would be the Jews in Exodus. They went through the Red Sea, and through the process their old life was washed away (the Egyptians drowning), and as St. Peter points out that the passing through the Red Sea is a "type" of Baptism. But even though they were clean they went through the desert and they began to sin, and were corrected and punished, and then sin again, and were corrected and punished, and so on. We go through the same process as Christians. So purging of our sinful inclinations, and restitution for the sins that we do is part of the Christian life.

Not even remotely what I asked you. Once again, what I asked you was:

Has Christ perfected all whom He has sanctified? If so, then what is left to accomplish in the mythical land of Purgatory?

No the purpose of Purgatory is for God to finish cleaning us up. God does the work in Purgatory, and the individual.

I see. So then why does the Catholic Church say that the purpose of Purgatory is for the sinner to expiate his own sin?

Due to a heavy evaluation process, by the Vatican; which is extremely detailed and more than what can be commented here. I would recommend looking it up on the web. The only exception really would be martyrs. Martyrs are believed to go straight to heaven, for they have shown through their actions, that they have that "no greater love than one who is willing to lay down his life for a friend" love.

Wait a second, before, you said Purgatory was based on our not being pure. Now, you're saying it's based on how loving we are?

Does a martyr's love cleanse his sins?

And, for that matter, what about a martyr who wasn't killed for his friends?

How does it? We don't know quite honestly.

Again we don't know. We just know that they do.

For someone who claims to have the "fullness of truth", you don't seem to know much.

We are speaking about the after life. I am pretty sure time (if time has any effect upon a spirit) works differently for those who are spirit only.

"Pretty sure"? What do you mean "pretty sure"? If you're going to claim that you can reduce someone's time in Purgatory, shouldn't you have some idea what that means?

But no one will be done with their purging until they are made clean enough to enter into the Presence of God and see Him face to face.

And you don't believe Christ's atonement or Christ's righteousness, imputed to us, is able to do this?

 

[Erose]

According to Rome.

You asked us questions South Bound. They have been answered. Did you expect to like them?

I disagree. There is still the small matter of doctrine.

You can disagree all you want on this one as well, but you asked for the Catholic Church's position and I gave it to you.

You realize that "anathema" means condemned or eternally damned, right?

Someone already corrected your misunderstanding of what anathema means, so I won't repeat it here.

Not even remotely what I asked you. Once again, what I asked you was:

Has Christ perfected all whom He has sanctified? If so, then what is left to accomplish in the mythical land of Purgatory?

That was the question that I answered.

I see. So then why does the Catholic Church say that the purpose of Purgatory is for the sinner to expiate his own sin?

The Catholic Church doesn't proclaim such a thing. As my post given above that provided the definition of what the Church teaches on purgatory, it is simply the state of being purged or purified.

Wait a second, before, you said Purgatory was based on our not being pure. Now, you're saying it's based on how loving we are?

Does a martyr's love cleanse his sins?

And, for that matter, what about a martyr who wasn't killed for his friends?

Love and purity are tied together. The more we love God the more we will avoid sin, and the more we will do for our neighbor and our God. Love is the most important virtue of Sanctity. Martyrs have showed their purity, by loving God so much that they were willing to sacrifice everything they possess, including their lives, for love of Christ. Not everyone can be a martyr.

For someone who claims to have the "fullness of truth", you don't seem to know much.

South Bound, if you want me to think of you as a Christian, please act like one.

"Pretty sure"? What do you mean "pretty sure"? If you're going to claim that you can reduce someone's time in Purgatory, shouldn't you have some idea what that means?

All that we know for a fact is that our prayers and our indulgences dedicated to a loved one who may be in purgatory are edifying is some way. How they edify? We leave that up to God.

And you don't believe Christ's atonement or Christ's righteousness, imputed to us, is able to do this?

The men and women enduring purgatory, are there due to Christ's atonement. These men and women are already saved and their final destination is heaven. But we as Catholics acknowledge that most of us do not die perfect, and clean. Most of us die, with some bad habit and/or sin that we are dealing with; or that we haven't made up for the sins that we have committed, etc. Most of us do not die in the purity of our baptism, and as such just like when my mom used to spray me down with a water hose before letting me into the house after as a child I went slipping and sliding in the mud; so does God clean us up and make us pure before entering into the Divine Presence.

 

[Rhamiel]

even though Erose and others have said the same thing, let me reiterate this just to be clear.

Purgatory is not meant to be separate from Christ
it is Christ finishing the work that He started in us during our lives

if you have any temptation or bad habit, how do you think that you could be happy in heaven if you still had these qualities when you got to heaven?
Jesus will cure those who love Him of all of these things, either in this life, or after death but before heaven

 

[Albion]

The men and women enduring purgatory, are there due to Christ's atonement. These men and women are already saved and their final destination is heaven. But we as Catholics acknowledge that most of us do not die perfect, and clean. Most of us die, with some bad habit and/or sin that we are dealing with; or that we haven't made up for the sins that we have committed, etc. Most of us do not die in the purity of our baptism, and as such just like when my mom used to spray me down with a water hose before letting me into the house after as a child I went slipping and sliding in the mud; so does God clean us up and make us pure before entering into the Divine Presence.

Just show us where that notion comes from. While I know Purgatory to be a an invention of the Medieval church, I also know that Catholics try to prove that it has a Biblical basis, if sketchy. However, I don't know a one of those references that describes Purgatory as a finishing school, as the proverbial "celestial washroom," or anything of the sort--such as you are describing here in your own words.

No, they are all in terms of punishment, suffering, fire, etc. and that is exactly what the Roman Catholic Church teaches that it is.

 

[South Bound]

You asked us questions South Bound. They have been answered. Did you expect to like them?

I'm just pointing out that your answers are not Biblical and are not shared by Biblical Christians, but are from Rome.

Someone already corrected your misunderstanding of what anathema means, so I won't repeat it here.

Actually, I'm not wrong on this. The word anathema comes from the Greek ἀνάθεμα, meaning “a person or thing accursed or consigned to damnation or destruction.”

We see it used six times in the Bible, and, each time, the word anathema is usually translated as “accursed,” “cursed,” or “eternally condemned”.

That was the question that I answered.

No, you didn't answer the question. You said, "Yes, baptism purifies us and makes a clean as the purest snow. The problem occurs after baptism, when we go out into the world and begin to commit those sins which we wish we would not do. St. John tells us that he who says he doesn't sin deceives himself, and the truth is not in him. (1Jn 1:8).

The best analogy would be the Jews in Exodus. They went through the Red Sea, and through the process their old life was washed away (the Egyptians drowning), and as St. Peter points out that the passing through the Red Sea is a "type" of Baptism. But even though they were clean they went through the desert and they began to sin, and were corrected and punished, and then sin again, and were corrected and punished, and so on. We go through the same process as Christians. So purging of our sinful inclinations, and restitution for the sins that we do is part of the Christian life."

Nothing in your answer addressed whether or not Christ perfected all whom He has sanctified or what is left to accomplish in the mythical land of Purgatory.

The Catholic Church doesn't proclaim such a thing.

Are you sure about that?

The Second Vatican Council, p. 63, says, "The truth has been divinely revealed that sins are followed by punishments. Gods holiness and justice inflict them. Sins must be expiated. This may be done on this earth through the sorrows, miseries and trials of this life and, above all, through death. Otherwise the expiation must be made in the next life through fire and torments or purifying punishments."

CCC 1475 says "In the communion of saints, "a perennial link of charity exists between the faithful who have already reached their heavenly home, those who are expiating their sins in purgatory and those who are still pilgrims on earth. Between them there is, too, an abundant exchange of all good things." In this wonderful exchange, the holiness of one profits others, well beyond the harm that the sin of one could cause others. Thus recourse to the communion of saints lets the contrite sinner be more promptly and efficaciously purified of the punishments for sin."

Love and purity are tied together. The more we love God the more we will avoid sin, and the more we will do for our neighbor and our God. Love is the most important virtue of Sanctity. Martyrs have want me to report you. showed their purity, by loving God so much that they were willing to sacrifice everything they possess, including their lives, for love of Christ. Not everyone can be a martyr.

So, once again, it is works that purifies, not Christ.

All that we know for a fact is that our prayers and our indulgences dedicated to a loved one who may be in purgatory are edifying is some way.

And how do you know this for a fact when you don't even know what they do or how they do it?

The men and women enduring purgatory, are there due to Christ's atonement.

Wasn't Christ's atonement sufficient? What did Christ's atonement leave unfinished that they have to go and expiate their sins in Purgatory?

But we as Catholics acknowledge that most of us do not die perfect, and clean.

That's why we keep preaching Christ to you. He will perfect (Hebrews 10:14) and clean (1 John 1:7) you.

Don't you ever get tired of carrying that heavy burden of works-righteousness around? Are you sure you've done enough to be saved?

even though Erose and others have said the same thing, let me reiterate this just to be clear.

Purgatory is not meant to be separate from Christ
it is Christ finishing the work that He started in us during our lives

You mean the work wasn't finished when He said "It is finished"? Was He lying? Was He mistaken?

if you have any temptation or bad habit, how do you think that you could be happy in heaven if you still had these qualities when you got to heaven?

Who says we'll have those bad qualities when we get to Heaven? Do you know what glorification is?

He’ll cleanse us-and then we can remain clean-so long as we remain in Him, so long as we persevere.

Why doesn't 1 John 1:7 make that distinction? What is the difference between keeping our salvation by remaining and persevering and earning our salvation?

We only need to keep reading before these contingencies show up and balance out the message, even with Heb 10:14 which is followed a little later with vs 36:

“You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.”

Would you like to quote the whole thing? Or should I do it?

No, it’s more like the difference between: ‘once justified, forever just’ or ‘once cleansed, forever perfectly clean’, versus: ‘God has cleansed you; now, not only stay that way but take the opportunity given, pick up your cross, go out and produce something with it for the kingdom, grow in authentic holiness/righteousness/justice, becoming perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect, with His help, ote]because that’s what you were made for! He certainly didn't make us to be unholy/unrighteous/unjust/imperfect.

What's the difference between that and earning your salvation?

He certainly doesn't intend to leave His creation sinful, with only a "pretend righteousness".

Why do you believe Christ's righteousness is "pretend"?

And only the pure of heart will see God after all, because only the pure of heart can and really want to see God.

So, what purifies us? Christ, our works, or Purgatory?

your post is full of twisting words out of what they are meant to mean, it reminds me of how atheists try to disprove the Bible.

Really? That's odd, because I don't recall twisting your words at all. Mostly, I just recall asking you a series of questions in order to give you an opportunity to speak for yourself and elaborate on things you've said previously.

How is that twisting your words?

suffering does not have any value in and of itself, if it did, the Devil would be the most holy creature ever.

So then, what, exactly happens in the expiation process, if not suffering?

as for the parts of your post that were directed towards me
"Was He lying? Was He mistaken?"

Yes, what about those? Was the debt paid, as He said? Was His work finished? Or was He lying or perhaps mistaken when He said "tetelestai"

Catholics believe that the saving work of Christ was finished on the cross but that it is more fully applied to people over time, that we become more like Him and less like the Old Man (Ephesians 4:24)

I see. You believe that it's ongoing, as opposed to the Bible, which teaches that it was a one time, completed transaction.

 

[fhansen]

And how do you reconcile this with 1 John 1:7, which says "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin."

Do you not believe the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin? If so, then what's left to be cleansed? If not, why not?

He’ll cleanse us-and then we can remain clean-so long as we remain in Him, so long as we persevere. I don’t know whether or not people miss this on purpose but positive statements regarding one’s saved status, mixed with contingencies regarding that status, are absoloutely rife throughout the NT:

5“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. John 15:5-6

You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. Heb 19-21

7 Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous.8 The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. 9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. 10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister. 1 John 3:7-17

4 Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken the love you had at first. 5 Consider how far you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place. 6 But you have this in your favor: You hate the practices of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.
7 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God. Rev 2:4-7

“If it is hard for the righteous to be saved,
what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?”
So then, those who suffer according to God’s will should commit themselves to their faithful Creator and continue to do good. 1 Pet 4:18-19

We only need to keep reading before these contingencies show up and balance out the message, even with Heb 10:14 which is followed a little later with vs 36:
“You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.”

 

[Albion]

He’ll cleanse us-and then we can remain clean-so long as we remain in Him, so long as we persevere. I don’t know whether or not people miss this on purpose but positive statements regarding one’s saved status, mixed with contingencies regarding that status, are absoloutely rife throughout the NT:

5“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. John 15:5-6

You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. Heb 19-21

7 Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous.8 The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. 9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. 10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister. 1 John 3:7-17

4 Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken the love you had at first. 5 Consider how far you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place. 6 But you have this in your favor: You hate the practices of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.
7 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God. Rev 2:4-7

“If it is hard for the righteous to be saved,
what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?”
So then, those who suffer according to God’s will should commit themselves to their faithful Creator and continue to do good. 1 Pet 4:18-19

We only need to keep reading before these contingencies show up and balance out the message, even with Heb 10:14 which is followed a little later with vs 36:
“You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.”

I don't see anything in those passages that refers to Purgatory whether by that name or some other. Did you mean to be posting in a thread about OSAS or Works Righteousness?

 

[Rhamiel]

You mean the work wasn't finished when He said "It is finished"? Was He lying? Was He mistaken?



Who says we'll have those bad qualities when we get to Heaven? Do you know what glorification is?

your post is full of twisting words out of what they are meant to mean, it reminds me of how atheists try to disprove the Bible.

suffering does not have any value in and of itself, if it did, the Devil would be the most holy creature ever.

as for the parts of your post that were directed towards me
"Was He lying? Was He mistaken?" were you Saved before you were Born Again?
no, you were a fallen sinner, Jesus said "it was finished"

The work that Jesus did on the cross was done, but the effects of that saving work was not applied to you until you were Saved correct?
so even though the work was finished 2000 years ago, it was not applied to you until you were regenerated by the Holy Spirit.
Catholics believe that the saving work of Christ was finished on the cross
but that it is more fully applied to people over time, that we become more like Him and less like the Old Man (Ephesians 4:24)

hmmm, I hate to answer a question with a question... but it might help us to understand eachother more clearly, would you explain your beliefs on glorification first?

 

[fhansen]

I don't see anything in those passages that refers to Purgatory whether by that name or some other. Did you mean to be posting in a thread about OSAS or Works Righteousness?

No, it’s more like the difference between: ‘once justified, forever just’ or ‘once cleansed, forever perfectly clean’, versus: ‘God has cleansed you; now, not only stay that way but take the opportunity given, pick up your cross, go out and produce something with it for the kingdom, grow in authentic holiness/righteousness/justice, becoming perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect, with His help, because that’s what you were made for! He certainly didn't make us to be unholy/unrighteous/unjust/imperfect. He certainly doesn't intend to leave His creation sinful, with only a "pretend righteousness". And only the pure of heart will see God after all, because only the pure of heart can and really want to see God.

 

[South Bound]

You asked us questions South Bound. They have been answered. Did you expect to like them?

I'm just pointing out that your answers are not Biblical and are not shared by Biblical Christians, but are from Rome.

Someone already corrected your misunderstanding of what anathema means, so I won't repeat it here.

Actually, I'm not wrong on this. The word anathema comes from the Greek ἀνάθεμα, meaning “a person or thing accursed or consigned to damnation or destruction.”

We see it used six times in the Bible, and, each time, the word anathema is usually translated as “accursed,” “cursed,” or “eternally condemned”.

That was the question that I answered.

No, you didn't answer the question. You said, "Yes, baptism purifies us and makes a clean as the purest snow. The problem occurs after baptism, when we go out into the world and begin to commit those sins which we wish we would not do. St. John tells us that he who says he doesn't sin deceives himself, and the truth is not in him. (1Jn 1:8).

The best analogy would be the Jews in Exodus. They went through the Red Sea, and through the process their old life was washed away (the Egyptians drowning), and as St. Peter points out that the passing through the Red Sea is a "type" of Baptism. But even though they were clean they went through the desert and they began to sin, and were corrected and punished, and then sin again, and were corrected and punished, and so on. We go through the same process as Christians. So purging of our sinful inclinations, and restitution for the sins that we do is part of the Christian life."

Nothing in your answer addressed whether or not Christ perfected all whom He has sanctified or what is left to accomplish in the mythical land of Purgatory.

The Catholic Church doesn't proclaim such a thing.

Are you sure about that?

The Second Vatican Council, p. 63, says, "The truth has been divinely revealed that sins are followed by punishments. Gods holiness and justice inflict them. Sins must be expiated. This may be done on this earth through the sorrows, miseries and trials of this life and, above all, through death. Otherwise the expiation must be made in the next life through fire and torments or purifying punishments."

CCC 1475 says "In the communion of saints, "a perennial link of charity exists between the faithful who have already reached their heavenly home, those who are expiating their sins in purgatory and those who are still pilgrims on earth. Between them there is, too, an abundant exchange of all good things." In this wonderful exchange, the holiness of one profits others, well beyond the harm that the sin of one could cause others. Thus recourse to the communion of saints lets the contrite sinner be more promptly and efficaciously purified of the punishments for sin."

Love and purity are tied together. The more we love God the more we will avoid sin, and the more we will do for our neighbor and our God. Love is the most important virtue of Sanctity. Martyrs have want me to report you. showed their purity, by loving God so much that they were willing to sacrifice everything they possess, including their lives, for love of Christ. Not everyone can be a martyr.

So, once again, it is works that purifies, not Christ.

All that we know for a fact is that our prayers and our indulgences dedicated to a loved one who may be in purgatory are edifying is some way.

And how do you know this for a fact when you don't even know what they do or how they do it?

The men and women enduring purgatory, are there due to Christ's atonement.

Wasn't Christ's atonement sufficient? What did Christ's atonement leave unfinished that they have to go and expiate their sins in Purgatory?

But we as Catholics acknowledge that most of us do not die perfect, and clean.

That's why we keep preaching Christ to you. He will perfect (Hebrews 10:14) and clean (1 John 1:7) you.

Don't you ever get tired of carrying that heavy burden of works-righteousness around? Are you sure you've done enough to be saved?

even though Erose and others have said the same thing, let me reiterate this just to be clear.

Purgatory is not meant to be separate from Christ
it is Christ finishing the work that He started in us during our lives

You mean the work wasn't finished when He said "It is finished"? Was He lying? Was He mistaken?

if you have any temptation or bad habit, how do you think that you could be happy in heaven if you still had these qualities when you got to heaven?

Who says we'll have those bad qualities when we get to Heaven? Do you know what glorification is?

He’ll cleanse us-and then we can remain clean-so long as we remain in Him, so long as we persevere.

Why doesn't 1 John 1:7 make that distinction? What is the difference between keeping our salvation by remaining and persevering and earning our salvation?

We only need to keep reading before these contingencies show up and balance out the message, even with Heb 10:14 which is followed a little later with vs 36:

“You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.”

Would you like to quote the whole thing? Or should I do it?

No, it’s more like the difference between: ‘once justified, forever just’ or ‘once cleansed, forever perfectly clean’, versus: ‘God has cleansed you; now, not only stay that way but take the opportunity given, pick up your cross, go out and produce something with it for the kingdom, grow in authentic holiness/righteousness/justice, becoming perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect, with His help, ote]because that’s what you were made for! He certainly didn't make us to be unholy/unrighteous/unjust/imperfect.

What's the difference between that and earning your salvation?

He certainly doesn't intend to leave His creation sinful, with only a "pretend righteousness".

Why do you believe Christ's righteousness is "pretend"?

And only the pure of heart will see God after all, because only the pure of heart can and really want to see God.

So, what purifies us? Christ, our works, or Purgatory?

your post is full of twisting words out of what they are meant to mean, it reminds me of how atheists try to disprove the Bible.

Really? That's odd, because I don't recall twisting your words at all. Mostly, I just recall asking you a series of questions in order to give you an opportunity to speak for yourself and elaborate on things you've said previously.

How is that twisting your words?

suffering does not have any value in and of itself, if it did, the Devil would be the most holy creature ever.

So then, what, exactly happens in the expiation process, if not suffering?

as for the parts of your post that were directed towards me
"Was He lying? Was He mistaken?"

Yes, what about those? Was the debt paid, as He said? Was His work finished? Or was He lying or perhaps mistaken when He said "tetelestai"

Catholics believe that the saving work of Christ was finished on the cross but that it is more fully applied to people over time, that we become more like Him and less like the Old Man (Ephesians 4:24)

I see. You believe that it's ongoing, as opposed to the Bible, which teaches that it was a one time, completed transaction.

 

[Albion]

No, it’s more like the difference between: ‘once justified, forever just’ or ‘once cleansed, forever perfectly clean’, versus: ‘God has cleansed you; now, not only stay that way but take the opportunity given, pick up your cross, go out and produce something with it for the kingdom, grow in authentic holiness/righteousness/justice, becoming perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect, with His help, because that’s what you were made for! He certainly didn't make us to be unholy/unrighteous/unjust/imperfect. He certainly doesn't intend to leave His creation sinful, with only a "pretend righteousness". And only the pure of heart will see God after all, because only the pure of heart can and really want to see God.

All that said, there's still nothing about those verses that speaks of Purgatory, anything LIKE a Purgatory, or requires that there BE a Purgatory. Your conclusion is simply based upon speculation urged on you by your denomination. If you did not feel obligated to defend its teachings, you'd never see any Purgatory in any of those verses.

 

[fhansen]

What's the difference between that and earning your salvation?

It's very, very simple: we still can't do any of it without Him. It's just that, in His wisdom, He elects not to do any of it without us. We work out our salvation with He who works in us.

Why do you believe Christ's righteousness is "pretend"?

It's pretend for us if its only a covering of our sinfulness, God wants much more for us than that, for His righteousness to become ours, which is simply how it was always intended to be. We appropriate this beginning with faith, simply because faith reestablishes communion between fallen man and God, so He may live in us again, putting His law in our minds, writing it on our hearts.

So, what purifies us? Christ, our works, or Purgatory?

We're a work of His, but its a work we must cooperate with. Adam freely fell; we must freely rise to the extent we're able, with His help. God draws us into alignment with His will, without force. Otherwise He may as well have just prevented Adam from sinning to begin with, or forgave him and left him to live in Eden after he did sin, and just avoided the whole drama and suffering that this world entails.

 

[fhansen]

All that said, there's still nothing about those verses that speaks of Purgatory, anything LIKE a Purgatory, or requires that there BE a Purgatory. Your conclusion is simply based upon speculation urged on you by your denomination. If you did not feel obligated to defend its teachings, you'd never see any Purgatory in any of those verses.

I wasn't trying to directly support the doctrine of Purgatory with those verses-only to respond to SB's post. Where did you get the notion that the Christian faith was ever meant to be exhaustively defined and proclaimed by Scripture?

 

[South Bound]

It's very, very simple: we still can't do any of it without Him. It's just that, in His wisdom, He elects not to do any of it without us. We work out our salvation with He who works in us.

But why do you believe you have to do it (or, for that matter, are even capable of doing it) at all, when the Bible is so abundantly clear that salvation is by grace, through faith, and not of works?

It's just that, in His wisdom, He elects not to do any of it without us.

What verse is that and how do you reconcile that with Romans 5, which says that we are powerless to save ourselves?

We work out our salvation with He who works in us.

So then, you admit that it is works based.

It's pretend for us if its only a covering of our sinfulness

Who says it's a covering? A sin covering is an Old Covenant Jewish doctrine, not a Christian doctrine.

God wants much more for us than that, for His righteousness to become ours, which is simply how it was always intended to be.

And, by imputation, it is ours. So what's the problem?

We're a work of His, but its a work we must cooperate with. Adam freely fell; we must freely rise to the extent we're able, with His help.

But the whole point is that we're not able at all. Where does the Bible ever say that we are to, or are capable of, rise? How do you reconcile this with Romans 5, which says that we're helpless to "rise"?

God draws us into alignment with His will, without force.

Ah, an Arminian Catholic.

Otherwise He may as well have just prevented Adam from sinning to begin with

Why? His plan was for Adam to sin. Why would He prevent His own will from being done?

Where did you get the notion that the Christian faith was ever meant to be exhaustively defined and proclaimed by Scripture?

From Scripture and from history:

2nd Kings 22:10-13 - "And Shaphan the scribe shewed the king, saying, Hilkiah the priest hath delivered me a book. And Shaphan read it before the king. And it came to pass, when the king had heard the words of the book of the law, that he rent his clothes. And the king commanded Hilkiah the priest, and Ahikam the son of Shaphan, and Achbor the son of Michaiah, and Shaphan the scribe, and Asahiah a servant of the king's, saying, Go ye, enquire of the LORD for me, and for the people, and for all Judah, concerning the words of this book that is found: for great is the wrath of the LORD that is kindled against us, because our fathers have not harkened unto the words of this book, to do according unto all that which is written concerning us."

2nd Timothy 3:16-17 - "All scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for Doctrine, for Reproof, for Correction, for Instruction in Righteousness; that the man of God may be thoroughly Furnished unto all good works."

Matthew 4:3-4 - "And when the tempter came to Him, he said, if Thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread. But He answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every Word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God."

Matthew 4:5-11 - Then the Devil taketh Him up into the Holy City, and setteth Him on a pinnacle of the Temple, and saith unto Him, if Thou be the Son of God, cast Thyself down; for it is written, He shall give His angels charge concerning Thee, and in their hands they shall bear Thee up, lest at any time Thou dash Thy foot against a stone. Jesus said unto him, It is Written Again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God."

Matthew 4:8 - "Again, the Devil taketh Him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth Him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; and saith unto Him, all these things will I give Thee, if Thou wilt fall down and worship me. Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan; for it is written, thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and Him only shalt thou serve."

Matthew 21:42 - "Jesus said unto them, did ye never read in the scriptures, the Stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner; this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvelous in our Eyes!"

Revelation 22:18-19 -"For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."

Proverbs 30:5-6 - "Every word of God is pure, He is a shield unto them that put their trust in Him. add thou not unto His words, lest He reprove thee, and thou be found a Liar!"

Matthew 12:3-5 -"but He said unto them, have ye not read what David did when he was an hungered, and they that were with Him?"

Matthew 19:4-5 "And He answered and said unto them, have ye not read that He which made them at the beginning made them male and female, and said, for this reason shall a man leave father and mother and shall cleave to his wife, and they two shall be one flesh."

Matthew 22:31-32 - "But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God saying, I AM the God of Abraham, Isaac, and the God of Jacob. God is not the God of the dead, but of the Living."

Luke 10:26 - "He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?"

Matthew 22:29 -"..Ye do ERR, not knowing THE SCRIPTURES, nor the Power of God!"

Matthew 26:24 -"The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born".

John 5:39 - "Search the Scriptures, for in them ye think ye have eternal life, and they are they which testify of me."

Isa 8:20 - To the law and to the testimony! if they speak not according to this word, surely there is no morning for them.

Incidentally, many of the ECFs Catholics constantly refer to also believed in the authority of the Word of God:

Augustine of Hippo: "This Mediator (Jesus Christ), having spoken what He judged sufficient first by the prophets, then by His own lips, and afterwards by the apostles, has besides produced the scripture which is called canonical, which has Paramount Authority, and to which we yield assent in all matters of which we ought not to be ignorant, and yet cannot know of ourselves." (Augustine of Hippo, City of God, Book 11, Chapter 3)

Cyril of Jerusalem: This seal have thou ever on thy mind; which now by way of summary has been touched on in its heads, and if the Lord grant, shall hereafter be set forth according to our power, with Scripture-proofs. For concerning the divine and sacred Mysteries of the Faith, we ought not to deliver even the most casual remark without the Holy Scriptures: nor be drawn aside by mere probabilities and the artifices of argument. Do not then believe me because I tell thee these things, unless thou receive from the Holy Scriptures the proof of what is set forth: for this salvation, which is of our faith, is not by ingenious reasonings, but by proof from the Holy Scriptures (A Library of the Fathers of the Holy Catholic Church (Oxford: Parker, 1845), The Catechetical Lectures of S. Cyril 4.17).

Gregory of Nyssa: "The generality of men still fluctuate in their opinions about this, which are as erroneous as they are numerous. As for ourselves, if the Gentile philosophy, which deals methodically with all these points, were really adequate for a demonstration, it would certainly be superfluous to add a discussion on the soul to those speculations, but while the latter proceeded, on the subject of the soul, as far in the direction of supposed consequences as the thinker pleased, we are not entitled to such license, I mean that of affirming what we please; we make the Holy Scriptures the rule and the measure of every tenet (dogma); we necessarily fix our eyes upon that, and approve that alone which may be made to harmonize with the intention of those writings." (Philip Schaff and Henry Wace, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers (Peabody: Hendrikson, 1995), Second Series: Volume V, Philosophical Works, On the Soul And the Resurrection, p. 439).

Basil the Great, Bishop of Caesarea: "Enjoying as you do the consolation of the Holy Scriptures, you stand in need neither of my assistance nor of that of anybody else to help you comprehend your duty. You have the all-sufficient counsel and guidance of the Holy Spirit to lead you to what is right" (Philip Schaff and Henry Wace, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers (Peabody: Hendrikson, 1995), Second Series: Volume VIII, Basil: Letters and Select Works, Letter CCLXXXIII, p. 312).

The Bible's quite clear that we must cooperate

You say "the Bible's (sic) quite clear" and yet you don't give a verse. Can't be that clear if you can't think of a verse that says it.

With all the verses that exhort and admonish and encourage us in our wills…to: persevere, strive, remain in Christ, live in the Spirit, feed the hungry, cloth the naked, love each other, continue in faith, repent, refrain] from sin, invest ones talents, keep oil in one’s lamp, be vigilant, take up your cross, do good, be holy, be perfect, etc, etc, generally with the loss of the Kingdom at stake.

None of which has anything to do with my question. What verse are you referring to and how do you reconcile this belief with Romans 5, which says we're incapable.

Merely making a vague reference to "all the verses". Isn't an answer. In fact, it just begs the question, "what verses". All you've done is provided a list of other people making the same unfounded claim.

Here are some related concepts from the Catechism of the Catholic Church

...which you know we don't accept as authoritative.

Catholics believe grace is resistible.

The idea that man's will is greater than God's will is heresy.

God created/caused sin?

No.

Why should we worship Him?

Because He's God.

When God commanded Adam not to eat of the fruit, did He want Adam to eat of the fruit?

No. Why would God tell Adam to do something He didn't want Adam to do?

As the Eunuch lacked understanding without the guidance of one of the Apostle’s disciples, so we can’t be ensured of full correct knowledge outside the Church He established through them for that purpose.

I agree. We just don't believe that's the Catholic Church.

Purging is purging.

Again, if Christ's blood cleanses from all sin, then what is left to be purged?

If Christ has perfected those whom He is sanctifying, then what is left to be purged?

Tradition speaks that it is a purging fire, based upon the quote I had above from 1Cor

You mean the one I showed does not refer to Purgatory?

But healing is always a painful process is it not?

If we are healed by Christ's stripes, then what is left to be healed?

If you stab yourself in the leg with a knife (allusion to committing a mortal sin) and you begin to bleed out, and you get to the hospital before you die, and they operate on you to stop the bleeding and save your life (forgiveness), there is still a healing process to get back to 100% and that healing process isn't always painless is it?

Let's say you bleed out from your wound and die. Are you the one who calls 911? Are you the one who treats the wound? Are you the one who drives the ambulance? Are you the one who operates and saves you?

Because that would be far more analogous to salvation. Our sin means that we are spiritually dead and cannot help ourselves or perform any salvific acts. It is Christ and His work on the cross alone that can save.

Purgatory is the state of restitution after we die.

If Christ paid our debt in full on the cross (tetelestai!), then what restitution is left to be made?

 

[Erose]

Just show us where that notion comes from. While I know Purgatory to be a an invention of the Medieval church, I also know that Catholics try to prove that it has a Biblical basis, if sketchy. However, I don't know a one of those references that describes Purgatory as a finishing school, as the proverbial "celestial washroom," or anything of the sort--such as you are describing here in your own words.

Purging is purging. Tradition speaks that it is a purging fire, based upon the quote I had above from 1Cor; and most of the Fathers refer to that point. Nearly all agree that it is a painful. But healing is always a painful process is it not? If you stab yourself in the leg with a knife (allusion to committing a mortal sin) and you begin to bleed out, and you get to the hospital before you die, and they operate on you to stop the bleeding and save your life (forgiveness), there is still a healing process to get back to 100% and that healing process isn't always painless is it?

St. Thomas Aquinas pointed out that for us to be fully made right with God after we commit a sin, requires three things: repentance, confession, and restitution. Purgatory is the state of restitution after we die. And Aquinas also points out that there are two ways for one to meet the restitution: acts of merit, and the trials and tribulations given to us by God.

Since one after he/she dies can no longer perform acts of merit, then only the punishment can be possible after death. Now the question and the speculation is how is this punishment or pain carried out. Scripture alludes to fire; and the many of the Fathers who commented on this subject such as St. Augustine also believe that it was a fire; but we are not 100% sure; so it falls into the realm of Theological Speculation.

Another point that should be made is that the doctrine of purgatory predates the medieval age, and is spoken of as early as Tertullian and Origen.

 

[fhansen]

But why do you believe you have to do it (or, for that matter, are even capable of doing it) at all, when the Bible is so abundantly clear that salvation is by grace, through faith, and not of works?

The Bible's quite clear that we must cooperate, that we're not animals, that we're morally responsible, that we can't possibly do it without Him, but that He isn't after puppets either; that was never His purpose with man; our potential, even though fallen, is greater than that.

What verse is that and how do you reconcile that with Romans 5, which says that we are powerless to save ourselves?

With all the verses that exhort and admonish and encourage us in our wills…to: persevere, strive, remain in Christ, live in the Spirit, feed the hungry, cloth the naked, love each other, continue in faith, repent, refrain from sin, invest ones talents, keep oil in one’s lamp, be vigilant, take up your cross, do good, be holy, be perfect, etc, etc, generally with the loss of the Kingdom at stake.

Here are some related concepts from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
2001 The preparation of man for the reception of grace is already a work of grace. This latter is needed to arouse and sustain our collaboration in justification through faith, and in sanctification through charity. God brings to completion in us what he has begun, "since he who completes his work by cooperating with our will began by working so that we might will it:

Indeed we also work, but we are only collaborating with God who works, for his mercy has gone before us. It has gone before us so that we may be healed, and follows us so that once healed, we may be given life; it goes before us so that we may be called, and follows us so that we may be glorified; it goes before us so that we may live devoutly, and follows us so that we may always live with God: for without him we can do nothing. St Augustine

2002 God's free initiative demands man's free response, for God has created man in his image by conferring on him, along with freedom, the power to know him and love him. The soul only enters freely into the communion of love. God immediately touches and directly moves the heart of man. He has placed in man a longing for truth and goodness that only he can satisfy. The promises of "eternal life" respond, beyond all hope, to this desire:

If at the end of your very good works . . ., you rested on the seventh day, it was to foretell by the voice of your book that at the end of our works, which are indeed "very good" since you have given them to us, we shall also rest in you on the sabbath of eternal life. St Augustine

1993 Justification establishes cooperation between God's grace and man's freedom. On man's part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent:

When God touches man's heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God's grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God's sight.42

1995 The Holy Spirit is the master of the interior life. By giving birth to the "inner man,"44 justification entails the sanctification of his whole being:

Just as you once yielded your members to impurity and to greater and greater iniquity, so now yield your members to righteousness for sanctification. . . . But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the return you get is sanctification and its end, eternal life. Rom 6

So then, you admit that it is works based.

"The only thing that counts is faith working through love". Gal 5:6

Who says it's a covering? A sin covering is an Old Covenant Jewish doctrine, not a Christian doctrine.

And, by imputation, it is ours. So what's the problem?

Nothing, so long as that means that we're really changed, transformed, with a life that attests to it-that after we’ve turned to God we remain there, cooperating with grace as He gives it.

Ah, an Arminian Catholic.

Catholics believe grace is resistible. As Augustine said:
"But he who made you without your consent does not justify you without your consent. He made you without your knowledge, but He does not justify you without you willing it.” (Sermon 169, 13)

Why? His plan was for Adam to sin. Why would He prevent His own will from being done?

God created/caused sin? Why should we worship Him? When God commanded Adam not to eat of the fruit, did He want Adam to eat of the fruit?

From Scripture and from history:

Many of these have been quoted to me by JWs. And I tend to think that John 5:36-40 opposes the Reformed position better anyway.

Incidentally, many of the ECFs Catholics constantly refer to also believed in the authority of the Word of God:

As did Pelagius, Arian, Marcion, and almost every other heretic or quasi-heretic that walked the earth. And not everything the ECFs taught was considered orthodox or in any case accepted by the church, including Augustine’s works.

Augustine of Hippo: "This Mediator (Jesus Christ), having spoken what He judged sufficient first by the prophets, then by His own lips, and afterwards by the apostles, has besides produced the scripture which is called canonical, which has Paramount Authority, and to which we yield assent in all matters of which we ought not to be ignorant, and yet cannot know of ourselves." (Augustine of Hippo, City of God, Book 11, Chapter 3)

Augustine also said this:
"For my part, I should not believe the gospel except moved by
the authority of the Catholic Church.” Against the Fundamental Epistle of Manichaeus

As the Eunuch lacked understanding without the guidance of one of the Apostle’s disciples, so we can’t be ensured of full correct knowledge outside the Church He established through them for that purpose.

 

[Erose]

I'm just pointing out that your answers are not Biblical and are not shared by Biblical Christians, but are from Rome.

I am a Biblical Christian and I believe it and see it in Scripture. There is much more evidence in Scripture to support purgatory, than the man made doctrine of Sola Scriptura.

Actually, I'm not wrong on this. The word anathema comes from the Greek ἀνάθεμα, meaning “a person or thing accursed or consigned to damnation or destruction.”

We see it used six times in the Bible, and, each time, the word anathema is usually translated as “accursed,” “cursed,” or “eternally condemned”.

You also have to look at the word in context. The word "anathema" is used at the end of statements of defined dogmas, which has been done since at least the 1st Council of Nicaea, to emphasize the importance of that statement. One who knowingly rejects this definitive statement, is by definition a heretic, and their everlasting life is in question. It is good to understand historical context.

No, you didn't answer the question. You said, "Yes, baptism purifies us and makes a clean as the purest snow. The problem occurs after baptism, when we go out into the world and begin to commit those sins which we wish we would not do. St. John tells us that he who says he doesn't sin deceives himself, and the truth is not in him. (1Jn 1:8).

The best analogy would be the Jews in Exodus. They went through the Red Sea, and through the process their old life was washed away (the Egyptians drowning), and as St. Peter points out that the passing through the Red Sea is a "type" of Baptism. But even though they were clean they went through the desert and they began to sin, and were corrected and punished, and then sin again, and were corrected and punished, and so on. We go through the same process as Christians. So purging of our sinful inclinations, and restitution for the sins that we do is part of the Christian life."

Nothing in your answer addressed whether or not Christ perfected all whom He has sanctified or what is left to accomplish in the mythical land of Purgatory.

I'm sorry that you didn't like my answer, but my answer answered your question. You just like the answer.

Are you sure about that?

The Second Vatican Council, p. 63, says, "The truth has been divinely revealed that sins are followed by punishments. Gods holiness and justice inflict them. Sins must be expiated. This may be done on this earth through the sorrows, miseries and trials of this life and, above all, through death. Otherwise the expiation must be made in the next life through fire and torments or purifying punishments."

CCC 1475 says "In the communion of saints, "a perennial link of charity exists between the faithful who have already reached their heavenly home, those who are expiating their sins in purgatory and those who are still pilgrims on earth. Between them there is, too, an abundant exchange of all good things." In this wonderful exchange, the holiness of one profits others, well beyond the harm that the sin of one could cause others. Thus recourse to the communion of saints lets the contrite sinner be more promptly and efficaciously purified of the punishments for sin."

Neither of those statements claim what you want them to claim. One does not effect any work to get themselves out of purgatory. Purgatory is a state of purging, not a work camp. Neither statement claims that the individual does the expiating, but rather the sins and the temporal punishment due to sin much be expiated, which is done by the act of God.

If you send someone to a prison, the prisoner is not the one who punishes himself, but rather is being punished, and through that punishment of incarceration, he being expiated for the wrong doings he has performed to get into prison in the first place.

So, once again, it is works that purifies, not Christ.

Yes it is Christ's works, not our works.

And how do you know this for a fact when you don't even know what they do or how they do it?

Because Sacred Scripture has told us so.

Wasn't Christ's atonement sufficient? What did Christ's atonement leave unfinished that they have to go and expiate their sins in Purgatory?

So with that line of thinking, does a person really have to do anything at all to be saved? That leads to you the idea that all men and women are saved, whether they like it or not. Don't even have to ask Christ to be your personal Lord and Savior with that line of thinking.

That's why we keep preaching Christ to you. He will perfect (Hebrews 10:14) and clean (1 John 1:7) you.

Don't you ever get tired of carrying that heavy burden of works-righteousness around? Are you sure you've done enough to be saved?

Saved by works is not a Catholic position. That is a heresy called Pelagianism, which was condemned quite some time ago. Catholics believe that we are saved by faith, but that faith also requires a response from us. God already loves us, and has loved us for all eternity. Justification is the realization that this is true, and that this love will save us. Sanctification is the desire to return that love, by growing in our love for Him. The difference between many Protestants and Apostolic Christians is that you don't believe that Sanctification is part of salvation.

You mean the work wasn't finished when He said "It is finished"? Was He lying? Was He mistaken?

No. The problem is that you are mistaken. Obviously like I said above, there is a misunderstanding that you must have concerning what atonement means. St. Paul ties the death and resurrection to the Sacrament of Baptism. So in the Sacrament of Baptism we are atoned. So that that point if we died we would go straight to heaven, don't pass go, but straight to the Face of God. The problem occurs after Baptism, when we commit sin after sin. As St. Paul says, we do the things that we hate. Thus this requires us to keep going back to God for forgiveness for the sins which we commit after baptism, and these are the sins that we are speaking of. Not the sins committed before baptism. Like I said it is the issue of many Evangelical protestants eliminating sanctification from their theologies.

Who says we'll have those bad qualities when we get to Heaven? Do you know what glorification is?

We won't have those bad qualities because they will be purged from us.

Why doesn't 1 John 1:7 make that distinction? What is the difference between keeping our salvation by remaining and persevering and earning our salvation?

Don't quite understand what you are asking here. Please clarify.

Why do you believe Christ's righteousness is "pretend"?

That is a Protestant position, not a Catholic one.

So, what purifies us? Christ, our works, or Purgatory?

Christ's mercy does. Purgatory falls under Christ's mercy.

 

[South Bound]

I am a Biblical Christian and I believe it and see it in Scripture. There is much more evidence in Scripture to support purgatory, than the man made doctrine of Sola Scriptura.

I take it you missed the dozens of verses I provided you with to support the Biblical doctrine of sola scriptura. Any time you'd like to provide one or two verses that support the atonement sufficiency denying Purgatory myth, please feel free.

You also have to look at the word in context. The word "anathema" is used at the end of statements of defined dogmas, which has been done since at least the 1st Council of Nicaea, to emphasize the importance of that statement. One who knowingly rejects this definitive statement, is by definition a heretic, and their everlasting life is in question. It is good to understand historical context.

So, are we the good, Catholic anathema or the Biblical anathema?

I'm sorry that you didn't like my answer, but my answer answered your question. You just like the answer.

No, you didn't answer the question. You said, "Yes, baptism purifies us and makes a clean as the purest snow. The problem occurs after baptism, when we go out into the world and begin to commit those sins which we wish we would not do. St. John tells us that he who says he doesn't sin deceives himself, and the truth is not in him. (1Jn 1:8).

Nothing in your answer addressed whether or not Christ perfected all whom He has sanctified or what is left to accomplish in the mythical land of Purgatory.

Neither of those statements claim what you want them to claim.

I see. So, in Catholicism "expiating" doesn't mean expiating?

One does not effect any work to get themselves out of purgatory. Purgatory is a state of purging, not a work camp.

So then, why do the two Catholic sources I just provided say that the purpose of Purgatory is to expiate one's sins?

Neither statement claims that the individual does the expiating

Really? So "...those who are expiating their sins in purgatory..." doesn't mean those who are expiating their sins in purgatory?

If you send someone to a prison, the prisoner is not the one who punishes himself, but rather is being punished, and through that punishment of incarceration, he being expiated for the wrong doings he has performed to get into prison in the first place.

Ah, so then God is guilty of practicing double jeopardy.

Yes it is Christ's works, not our works.

Then why must sinners expiate their own sins in Purgatory?

Because Sacred Scripture has told us so.

Wait, first, you said you don't know. Now, you say you know because scripture tells you so? Which is it? And what verse are you referring to?

So with that line of thinking, does a person really have to do anything at all to be saved?

No. Not only can works not save, sinners are incapable of salvific works.

That leads to you the idea that all men and women are saved, whether they like it or not.

What makes you believe this?

Don't even have to ask Christ to be your personal Lord and Savior with that line of thinking.

Agreed. Nowhere in the Bible do we see anything about "asking Christ to be a personal Lord and Savior".

Saved by works is not a Catholic position.

I see. So, can one be saved without participating in any of the sacraments of the Catholic Church?

Catholics believe that we are saved by faith, but that faith also requires a response from us.

Thus, works.

God already loves us, and has loved us for all eternity. Justification is the realization that this is true, and that this love will save us.

Thank you, Joel Osteen.

Sanctification is the desire to return that love, by growing in our love for Him. The difference between many Protestants and Apostolic Christians is that you don't believe that Sanctification is part of salvation.

Correct. We believe the Biblical teaching that sanctification follows justification.

No. The problem is that you are mistaken. Obviously like I said above, there is a misunderstanding that you must have concerning what atonement means.

Your ad hom is duly noted.

St. Paul ties the death and resurrection to the Sacrament of Baptism. So in the Sacrament of Baptism we are atoned.

No. Baptism is a symbol of our death and resurrection in Christ. We are "atoned" by Christ's work on the cross.

So that that point if we died we would go straight to heaven, don't pass go, but straight to the Face of God.

I see. So, those Catholics who were baptized but never show any fruit of regeneration, don't have a valid salvation testimony, never repented of their sin, go to Heaven?

The problem occurs after Baptism, when we commit sin after sin. As St. Paul says, we do the things that we hate. Thus this requires us to keep going back to God for forgiveness for the sins which we commit after baptism, and these are the sins that we are speaking of. Not the sins committed before baptism. Like I said it is the issue of many Evangelical protestants eliminating sanctification from their theologies.

If this is true, then why don't you re-baptize sinners?

We won't have those bad qualities because they will be purged from us.

No, we won't have those bad qualities because we will be glorified in the twinkling of an eye.

Don't quite understand what you are asking here. Please clarify.

You know exactly what I'm asking. Stop playing games.

That is a Protestant position, not a Catholic one.

Now you're just flat out lying. No Protestant has ever claimed this.

Christ's mercy does.

Christ's mercy? Not His atonement?

Purgatory falls under Christ's mercy.

How is it merciful?