Purgatory!

[South Bound]

I guess none of the Catholics here are interested in answering my questions. Hmm...Wonder why?

 

[concretecamper]

I guess none of the Catholics here are interested in answering my questions. Hmm...Wonder why?

Feeling left out? ok...state your question and I will do my best to answer.

 

[South Bound]

1. Have the "anathemas" of Trent been overturned? If not, why do you say we're your brothers in Christ? If not, then do they apply to all who hold those beliefs or just some?

2. Has Christ perfected all whom He has sanctified? If so, then what is left to accomplish in the mythical land of Purgatory?

3. Is the purpose of Purgatory for the sinner to expiate his own sins?

4. How do you know the saints you "venerate" are not currently in Purgatory?

5. How does an indulgence reduce time in Purgatory? Likewise, how do other people's prayers reduce a person's time in Purgatory? Wouldn't this mean that it's possible for a Catholic in Purgatory to be taken out of the over before he's done, so to speak?

I look forward to hearing how I don't understand Catholic doctrine from you.

 

[barryatlake]

South Bound, to answer your question # 1;

The Catholic Church has no power to damn anyone to hell (that, of course, is each individual's unique prerogative - if you go to hell, you choose to go there), and the term anathema sit does not mean "let him be damned to hell," but "let him be cut off." There is a great difference.
First, let's examine the biblical meaning of the Greek word anathema. It literally means to be suspended, placed on high, or set aside. In the Bible the term is sometimes used in the positive sense of being to something which is dedicated to God.
For example, in Judith 16:23, "Judith dedicated as a votive offering [anathema] to God all the things of Holofernes that the people had given her, as well as the canopy that she herself had taken from his bedroom."
In an act of desperation as he saw God's wrath being kindled against him, the evil King Antiochus "vowed to the Lord, who would no longer have mercy on him, that he would set free the holy city, toward which he had been hurrying with the intention of leveling it to the ground and making it a common graveyard. . . [and that] he would adorn with the finest offerings [anathemata] the temple which he had previously despoiled" (2 Mc 9:13-14, 16). Luke describes the Temple as being, "adorned with costly stones and votive offerings [anathemata]" (Lk 21:5).
In other instances anathema is used in sense of being cursed or cut off. Paul says, "For I could wish that I myself were accursed and separated [anathema] from Christ for the sake of my brothers, my kin, according to the flesh" (Rom 9:3). He also warns us, "If anyone preaches to you a gospel other than the one that you received, let that one be accursed [anathema]!" (Gal 1:9, see also 1 Cor 16:22).
When the Catholic Church uses the term, such as at the Council of Trent and in its official documents, it is in the sense of excommunication or being cut off from the life-giving unity of the Church. If someone knowingly and publicly denies a defined (de fidei definita) doctrine of the Catholic Church, he can be formally declared to be excommunicated, meaning that he no longer enjoys unity with the Catholic Church.
That's why, for example, the Council of Trent said, "If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone, meaning that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtain the grace of justification, and that it is not in any way necessary that he be prepared and disposed by the action of his own will, let him be anathema" (session VI, can. 9). This use of the term anathema has a very precise meaning: Let him be cut off from the Church, not let him be damned to hell. And this is done by the Church in her wisdom as a way of trying to bring the one in error to his senses - before it's too late and he is damned to hell by virtue of his obstinacy.
An anathema or excommunication is designed to remind the sinner of his eventual fate if he doesn't repent. That's why the Church is always ready to absolve and receive back the repentant sinner. That's why those who willingly disobey the Church's teachings may be anathematized - so that they will recognize the grave danger of such a course and be willing to return to the fold. And, of course, the Lord himself taught that excommunication is the Church's most severe method of dealing with members who sin grievously (heresy, schism, willingly procuring or helping someone to procure an abortion, illicitly ordaining bishops, and apostasy) when he said,

If your brother sins, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother. If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that "every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses" [Dt 19:15]. If he refuses to listen to them, tell the Church. If he refuses to listen even to the Church, then treat him as you would a Gentile o r a tax collector. Amen, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. (Mt 18:15-18)
​

Paul expands on the theme of excommunication:

It is widely reported that there is immorality among you and immorality of a kind not found even among the pagans. . . The one who did this should be expelled from your midst. I, for my part, although absent in body but present in spirit, have already, as if present, pronounced judgment on the one who has committed this deed, in the name of our Lord Jesus: When you have gathered together and I am with you in spirit with the power of the Lord Jesus, you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord. . . Do you not know that a little yeast leavens all the dough? Clear out the old yeast, so that you may become a fresh batch of dough. . . . Purge the evil person from your midst. (1 Cor 5:1-7, 13)
​

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[barryatlake]

South Bound , answer to your question #2;

Purgatory is a final purification to achieve the holiness necessary to enter heaven&#8212;this is entirely different from the punishment of hell. The Catechism of the Catholic Church explains:

To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the "eternal punishment" of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the "temporal punishment" of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain. (CCC 1472)
​

Unlike the damned, those in the state of purgatory have the joy of knowing that, upon purification, they will enter eternal life in heaven.

 

[barryatlake]

South Bound #3

There can be no absolute certainty in this life about one&#8217;s salvation (&#8220;[W]ork out your salvation in fear and trembling&#8221; [Phil 2:12]). The Church affirms our free will and the necessity of our response (ever by grace) to God&#8217;s outreach.
Speaking of knowing the power of Christ&#8217;s resurrection, St. Paul wrote, &#8220;Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect; but I press on to make it my own&#8221; (Phil 3:12). He used the figure of a footrace to tell us in this life we all face the possibility of being lost forever. As for winning &#8220;the prize,&#8221; &#8220;I pommel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified&#8221; (1 Cor. 9:27).
Only as we enter purgatory can we have absolute certainty of entering heaven. &#8220;All who die in God&#8217;s grace and friendship but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven&#8221; (CCC 1030). Undergoing purgatory marks the ultimate and final surrender of the soul to God.
&#8220;[H]e who has died is freed from sin&#8221; (Rom. 6:7). Moreover, St. Catherine of Genoa assures us, &#8220;in passing out of this life, they [the departed] . . . cannot in any thing turn aside from it [the love of God], because, as they can no more merit, so they can no more sin&#8221; (Treatise on Purgatory, ch. 1).

 

[South Bound]

South Bound, to answer your question # 1;

The Catholic Church has no power to damn anyone to hell (that, of course, is each individual's unique prerogative - if you go to hell, you choose to go there), and the term anathema sit does not mean "let him be damned to hell," but "let him be cut off." There is a great difference.
First, let's examine the biblical meaning of the Greek word anathema. It literally means to be suspended, placed on high, or set aside. In the Bible the term is sometimes used in the positive sense of being to something which is dedicated to God.
For example, in Judith 16:23, "Judith dedicated as a votive offering [anathema] to God all the things of Holofernes that the people had given her, as well as the canopy that she herself had taken from his bedroom."
In an act of desperation as he saw God's wrath being kindled against him, the evil King Antiochus "vowed to the Lord, who would no longer have mercy on him, that he would set free the holy city, toward which he had been hurrying with the intention of leveling it to the ground and making it a common graveyard. . . [and that] he would adorn with the finest offerings [anathemata] the temple which he had previously despoiled" (2 Mc 9:13-14, 16). Luke describes the Temple as being, "adorned with costly stones and votive offerings [anathemata]" (Lk 21:5).
In other instances anathema is used in sense of being cursed or cut off. Paul says, "For I could wish that I myself were accursed and separated [anathema] from Christ for the sake of my brothers, my kin, according to the flesh" (Rom 9:3). He also warns us, "If anyone preaches to you a gospel other than the one that you received, let that one be accursed [anathema]!" (Gal 1:9, see also 1 Cor 16:22).
When the Catholic Church uses the term, such as at the Council of Trent and in its official documents, it is in the sense of excommunication or being cut off from the life-giving unity of the Church. If someone knowingly and publicly denies a defined (de fidei definita) doctrine of the Catholic Church, he can be formally declared to be excommunicated, meaning that he no longer enjoys unity with the Catholic Church.
That's why, for example, the Council of Trent said, "If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone, meaning that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtain the grace of justification, and that it is not in any way necessary that he be prepared and disposed by the action of his own will, let him be anathema" (session VI, can. 9). This use of the term anathema has a very precise meaning: Let him be cut off from the Church, not let him be damned to hell. And this is done by the Church in her wisdom as a way of trying to bring the one in error to his senses - before it's too late and he is damned to hell by virtue of his obstinacy.
An anathema or excommunication is designed to remind the sinner of his eventual fate if he doesn't repent. That's why the Church is always ready to absolve and receive back the repentant sinner. That's why those who willingly disobey the Church's teachings may be anathematized - so that they will recognize the grave danger of such a course and be willing to return to the fold. And, of course, the Lord himself taught that excommunication is the Church's most severe method of dealing with members who sin grievously (heresy, schism, willingly procuring or helping someone to procure an abortion, illicitly ordaining bishops, and apostasy) when he said,

If your brother sins, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother. If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that "every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses" [Dt 19:15]. If he refuses to listen to them, tell the Church. If he refuses to listen even to the Church, then treat him as you would a Gentile o r a tax collector. Amen, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. (Mt 18:15-18)
​

Paul expands on the theme of excommunication:

It is widely reported that there is immorality among you and immorality of a kind not found even among the pagans. . . The one who did this should be expelled from your midst. I, for my part, although absent in body but present in spirit, have already, as if present, pronounced judgment on the one who has committed this deed, in the name of our Lord Jesus: When you have gathered together and I am with you in spirit with the power of the Lord Jesus, you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord. . . Do you not know that a little yeast leavens all the dough? Clear out the old yeast, so that you may become a fresh batch of dough. . . . Purge the evil person from your midst. (1 Cor 5:1-7, 13)
​

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• The Nightmare World of Jack T. Chick
• Hell? Yes! (Part II)
• Are people who die while excommunicated damned?

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Does excommunication condemn someone to hell?



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Is Origen considered a Church Father?



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I didn't ask you what anathema meant. I asked "Have the "anathemas" of Trent been overturned? If not, why do you say we're your brothers in Christ? If not, do they apply to all who hold those beliefs or just some?

South Bound , answer to your question #2;

Purgatory is a final purification to achieve the holiness necessary to enter heaven&#8212;this is entirely different from the punishment of hell. The Catechism of the Catholic Church explains:

To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the "eternal punishment" of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the "temporal punishment" of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain. (CCC 1472)

​

Unlike the damned, those in the state of purgatory have the joy of knowing that, upon purification, they will enter eternal life in heaven.

Again, I didn't ask you what Purgatory is. I asked you "2. Has Christ perfected all whom He has sanctified? If so, then what is left to accomplish in the mythical land of Purgatory?

3. Is the purpose of Purgatory for the sinner to expiate his own sins?

4. How do you know the saints you "venerate" are not currently in Purgatory?

5. How does an indulgence reduce time in Purgatory? Likewise, how do other people's prayers reduce a person's time in Purgatory? Wouldn't this mean that it's possible for a Catholic in Purgatory to be taken out of the over before he's done, so to speak?"

1. There are many anathema from the Council of Trent. They have not been overturned. All who are properly baptized in the name of the Father, Son, Holy Spirit are all brothers and sisters in Christ.

I see. So then, we're both anathema and brothers in Christ?

2. By baptism we die with Christ and are reborn as Paul says a new creation. So we are perfected by Christ. But we all choose not to stay that way because of our sinful actions and thoughts. We may lose salvation that He earned for us.

Grossly Unbiblical, but I didn't ask you about baptism.

3. Good question... I would suspect that it is cooperative since just as in this life we must cooperate with Him as He moves us towards Himself

I have no idea what "moving us towards (sic) Himself" means. But it looks like you're taking the Mormon view of salvation.

4. Because His Church has declared it.

I see. So then, the Catholic Church assigns the time required in Purgatory and determines when sins have been sufficiently expiated?

5. It is scriptural that God can apply my faith to heal another.

I look forward to seeing you show us that verse.

Also, one does not cease being a member of Christ's body simply because one's earthly life has come to and end. So just as my faith can affect others hear on earth, they can affect those in purgatory.

How? If it's their sin and their obligation to expiate their sin, then how does your faith do that?

Indulgences.... you can read about them in the CCC

I already have. I didn't ask you what they were. I asked you how they reduce one's time needed to expiate their sin in Purgatory.

I am not sure if it is correct to state people are taken out before their time is up

Why not? If the Catholic Church has assigned them a specific time needed to expiate their sin and your faith gets them out before that time is up, then why not?

...but when they are perfected.

And you don't believe that Christ has perfected those whom He has sanctified?

 

[concretecamper]

1. Have the "anathemas" of Trent been overturned? If so, why do you say we're your brothers in Christ? If not, then do they apply to all who hold those beliefs or just some?

2. Has Christ perfected all whom He has sanctified? If so, then what is left to accomplish in the mythical land of Purgatory?

3. Is the purpose of Purgatory for the sinner to expiate his own sins?

4. How do you know the saints you "venerate" are not currently in Purgatory?

5. How does an indulgence reduce time in Purgatory? Likewise, how do other people's prayers reduce a person's time in Purgatory? Wouldn't this mean that it's possible for a Catholic in Purgatory to be taken out of the over before he's done, so to speak?

I look forward to hearing how I don't understand Catholic doctrine from you.

1. There are many anathema from the Council of Trent. They have not been overturned. All who are properly baptized in the name of the Father, Son, Holy Spirit are all brothers and sisters in Christ.
2. By baptism we die with Christ and are reborn as Paul says a new creation. So we are perfected by Christ. But we all choose not to stay that way because of our sinful actions and thoughts. We may lose salvation that He earned for us.
3. Good question... I would suspect that it is cooperative since just as in this life we must cooperate with Him as He moves us towards Himself.
4. Because His Church has declared it. The Church has a beatification process which is easy to research online.
5. It is scriptural that God can apply my faith to heal another. Also, one does not cease being a member of Christ's body simply because one's earthly life has come to and end. So just as my faith can affect others hear on earth, they can affect those in purgatory. Indulgences.... you can read about them in the CCC... to much to post hear. I am not sure if it is correct to state people are taken out before their time is up... but when they are perfected.

 

[fhansen]

1. Have the "anathemas" of Trent been overturned? If not, why do you say we're your brothers in Christ? If not, then do they apply to all who hold those beliefs or just some?

The anathemas are aimed at false and foreign gospels; why would the Church want to overturn them?

2. Has Christ perfected all whom He has sanctified? If so, then what is left to accomplish in the mythical land of Purgatory?

Of course we're not perfected. Are you perfect? We've been forgiven, washed, and cleansed, but are we ever, from there, still attracted away by created things over the Creator? Do we, IOW, love God exclusively with our whole heart, soul, mind, and strength and our neighbor as ourselves-because this is what mans authentic righteousness/perfection/justice consists of-and this is what God wants for us-not to leave us sinners (who can't enter heaven as the bible tells us) with a phony righteousness. He may as well have left Adam in Eden after he sinned if that's all He intended for man. Purgatory is an aspect of God's merciful action in our lives. And both sides of the ancient Church, east and west, have always recognized this state in one form or another.

3. Is the purpose of Purgatory for the sinner to expiate his own sins?

The purpose of purgatory is for man to finally overcome sin with the help of grace, to become totally sold out to God IOW.

4. How do you know the saints you "venerate" are not currently in Purgatory?

The Church has recognized, in an official sense, a handful of people relatively speaking down through the centuries whose lives have reflected the image of God to such a degree that their eternal fate is said to be known.

5. How does an indulgence reduce time in Purgatory? Likewise, how do other people's prayers reduce a person's time in Purgatory? Wouldn't this mean that it's possible for a Catholic in Purgatory to be taken out of the over before he's done, so to speak?

God uses all of us for each of us: salvation is a communal/corporate thing even as God works within each of us individually. We need each other, IOW.

 

[Albion]

Of course we're not perfected. Are you perfect? We've been forgiven, washed, and cleansed, but are we ever, from there, still attracted away by created things over the Creator?

Where in Scripture do you find that Purgatory makes us perfect?

Do we, IOW, love God exclusively with our whole heart, soul, mind, and strength and our neighbor as ourselves-because this is what mans authentic righteousness/perfection/justice consists of-and this is what God wants

Yeh, that's pretty language and I'll bet you could make a cowpie seem like a rose with a little attention to wording, but Purgatory is not a place that makes us perfect. Not even the Church that invented Purgatory argued that. Nor does it today. Nor is perfection a requirement for salvation. So all of this (above) is just talk.

Here is the relevant information from the Roman Catholic Church's New Advent online encyclopedia:

Catholic doctrine

Purgatory (Lat., "purgare", to make clean, to purify) in accordance with Catholic teaching is a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God's grace, are, not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions.

The faith of the Church concerning purgatory is clearly expressed in the Decree of Union drawn up by the Council of Florence (Mansi, t. XXXI, col. 1031), and in the decree of the Council of Trent which (Sess. XXV) defined:


"Whereas the Catholic Church, instructed by the Holy Ghost, has from the Sacred Scriptures and the ancient tradition of the Fathers taught in Councils and very recently in this Ecumenical synod (Sess. VI, cap. XXX; Sess. XXII cap.ii, iii) that there is a purgatory, and that the souls therein are helped by the suffrages of the faithful, but principally by the acceptable Sacrifice of the Altar; the Holy Synod enjoins on the Bishops that they diligently endeavor to have the sound doctrine of the Fathers in Councils regarding purgatory everywhere taught and preached, held and believed by the faithful" (Denzinger, "Enchiridon", 983).

The purpose of purgatory is for man to finally overcome sin with the help of grace

In other words, exactly what the Cross accomplished. We've already covered that.

 

[MoreCoffee]

The Glossary of the Catechism of the Catholic Church defines purgatory thus:

PURGATORY is a state of final purification after death and before entrance into heaven for those who died in God&#8217;s friendship, but were only imperfectly purified; a final cleansing of human imperfection before one is able to enter the joy of heaven.​

Scripture tells us that in heaven the souls of the just have become perfect.

the spirits of the just made perfect (Hebrews 12:23c)​

Purgatory is the name that the church gives to the process of being made perfect. It seems to be obvious that in this life few (if any) are perfect before they die. If they die as imperfect people and if they are perfect in heaven then something happened to them that changed them from imperfect to perfect people.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come. (St. Gregory the Great)​

Purgatory is not about forgiveness for one's sins nor is it about a payment made to God for one's sins. It is about the healing ministry of the Spirit in the character (nature) of the forgiven sinner.

1472 To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the &#8220;eternal punishment&#8221; of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the &#8220;temporal punishment&#8221; of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.​

The kind of punishment mentioned here is the punishment one feels when one realises that one loves things more than one loves God. It is difficult to cease loving things more than one loves God and then turn towards God and love him more than the things one desires so much.

Wealth, health, one's career, partner in marriage, children, and so forth are among the things one loves more than one loves God. Jesus spoke this way about the discipline of loving God more than things in discipleship:

Matthew 10:34-39 NAB (34) Do not think that I have come to bring peace upon the earth. I have come to bring not peace but the sword. (35) For I have come to set a man 'against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; (36) and one's enemies will be those of his household.' (37) Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; (38) and whoever does not take up his cross and follow after me is not worthy of me. (39) Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.​

More can be said on this, but the basic foundation of the Church's teaching on purgatory is given above. It is about the transition from imperfect love for God to perfect love for God that the faithful undergo before being present with God in heaven as the "spirits of the just made perfect".

 

[South Bound]

The anathemas are aimed at false and foreign gospels; why would the Church want to overturn them?

So, if we're still anathema and are following a false and foreign gospel, according to Catholicism, then how can you say we're brothers in Christ?

Of course we're not perfected.

I see. So, on what grounds do you disagree with Hebrews 10:14, which tells us that Christ has perfected those whom He is sanctifying?

Are you perfect?

Hebrews 10:14 says yes, I am counted as being positionally righteous as a result of the Biblical doctrine of imputed righteousness. So, given that, what is left to do in Purgatory?

We've been forgiven, washed, and cleansed

Then why do we still have to expiate our sin in Purgatory, according to Catholicism?

Purgatory is an aspect of God's merciful action in our lives.

Isn't Christ's work on the cross sufficient?

The purpose of purgatory is for man to finally overcome sin with the help of grace, to become totally sold out to God IOW.

First of all, you realize that the phrase "totally sold out to God" isn't from the Bible, but is most likely from a youth group leader sometime in the mid-80s?

Second, didn't Christ already overcome sin for us?

Third, if you believe we overcome sin with the help of grace, then do you agree with this verse:

"For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do."

The Church has recognized, in an official sense, a handful of people relatively speaking down through the centuries whose lives have reflected the image of God to such a degree that their eternal fate is said to be known.

And how does the Catholic Church know their eternal fate, particularly when Catholics are always telling us that we can't have the assurance of our salvation?

God uses all of us for each of us: salvation is a communal/corporate thing even as God works within each of us individually. We need each other, IOW.

Corporate salvation is an Old Covenant concept, not something that's ever taught for the Church. Congratulations! You've managed to go from Catholic to Mormon to Jewish in about three hours. At the rate you're going, you could be a Hindu by suppertime.

Where in the Bible are we told that salvation is corporate??? How do you reconcile this with the New Testament model of individual evangelism leading to individual repentance and individual faith?

 

[Albion]

So, if we're still anathema and are following a false and foreign gospel, according to Catholicism, then how can you say we're brothers in Christ?

That would seem to be the point of the question you asked, all right.

Of course, everyone on that side of the issue wants to say "You are anathematized and the Council of Trent still stands, but of course, you're still a brother in Christ."

 

[South Bound]

That would seem to be the point of the question you asked, all right.

Of course, everyone on that side of the issue wants to say "You are anathematized and the Council of Trent still stands, but of course, you're still a brother in Christ."

I would have so much more respect for them if they'd just say, "Yeah, we think you're a bunch of heretics and you're going to Hell because you reject the authority of the Catholic Church and her doctrines", rather than trying to triangulate everything so as not to make the Catholic Church look like it's being mean.

I get it. We disagree. I'm a big boy. I can take it. Just tell me: Am I anathema or not. And if not, WHY NOT? What makes me any different than those they declared anathema for believing those things I believe?

I recognize that there is a reason the Reformation happened. Good grief, they killed our Protestant ancestors, but they can't even bring themselves to say where we stand vis a vis the Trent declarations.

 

[concretecamper]

I would have so much more respect for them if they'd just say, "Yeah, we think you're a bunch of heretics and you're going to Hell because you reject the authority of the Catholic Church and her doctrines", rather than trying to triangulate everything so as not to make the Catholic Church look like it's being mean.

I get it. We disagree. I'm a big boy. I can take it. Just tell me: Am I anathema or not. And if not, WHY NOT? What makes me any different than those they declared anathema for believing those things I believe?

I recognize that there is a reason the Reformation happened. Good grief, they killed our Protestant ancestors, but they can't even bring themselves to say where we stand vis a vis the Trent declarations.

Feel better?

 

[nephilimiyr]

part of this is, from a Catholic point of view, a lot of Protestantism seems to rest on the idea of Justification and Sanctification as being a Legal Fiction

you are not really changed, you are just declared so

the idea of Purgatory is that you are changed to become more like God before you can enter fully into His presence in Heaven

it is not suffering like payment or punishment, it is suffering because guess what, changing hurts

Ephesians 4:22-24, You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; to be made new in the attitude of your minds; and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.

You wrote that the idea of Purgatory is that we are changed to become more like God but in the Ephesians passages it says that we have been given a new self that was created to be like God himself, in true rightesouness and holiness. In our new self, I believe to be the born again spirit, we are already like God, no need to try to change to be like God but already there. However, in our soul or minds, change does need to be made because at conversion the only thing that happend was that God created this new righteous and holy spirit in us, this is the reason why Paul says we need to renew our minds because God didn't create a new mind in us, just a new spirit. So while we're renewing our minds and becoming sanctified in our souls, our born again spirit is already sanctified and holy. We aren't just declared changed and justified but part of us really truely is.

Anyway, this is one of the reasons why I have rejected the teaching on Purgatory. Our born again spirit is already like God and in no need of purging. Like the Scripture says: Ecclesiastes 12:7, Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
I believe that although the spirit and body may be seperated, the soul and spirit remains together. The soul follows the spirit directly to God.

Well, for what it's worth, that's my belief anyhow.

 

[nephilimiyr]

I have a question for my Roman Catholic brothers and sisters, I don't remember being taught all that much on the teaching of Purgatory when I was in the RCC and question just how much this teaching is a true doctrine of the RCC. I know my mother believed in Purgatory and was the main person who taught it to me.

Several years back I remember being involved in a debate here on the teaching and I remember there were some Catholics who were argueing about the doctrine actually being a doctrine. Some were saying that it was while others were saying that it wasn't, and I forget the term they used, but were escentially saying it was mearly a teaching of the Church that doesn't have to be believed by all Catholics. Um, is there anyone here who would like to tackle that? I do know that there are some Catholics who don't believe in the teaching and also that many Catholics, when asked for their opinions, differ in what it is actually all about.

 

[concretecamper]

That would seem to be the point of the question you asked, all right.

Of course, everyone on that side of the issue wants to say "You are anathematized and the Council of Trent still stands, but of course, you're still a brother in Christ."

Did the eldest brother cease to be a brother just because he took his inheritance and left to squander it? Of course not.

Many grow up separated from His Church and sincerely do not know any better.

CCC. 847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church: Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

But those who have themselves separated from Her, I would say the Trent doctrine more closely applies.

 

[nephilimiyr]

And quite frankly I find the idea of a new heaven and new earth where everyone is just the same as now, but everyone is pretending everyone is perfect, to be completely unappealing.

I agree, and I'm glad no one believes that that is going to happen.

1 John 3:2, Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. but we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

1 Corinthians 15:51, Listen, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound,the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with the immortality.

1 Corinthians 13:9-10, For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears.

1 Cor. 13:12, Now we see but a poor reflection as in a miror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

 

[ebia]

I agree, and I'm glad no one believes that that is going to happen.

I can only go on what people argue for