Purgatory!

[Rhamiel]

this is just bickering back and forth..... let us try to simplify things a little bit?

South Bound, you mentioned Glorification before, could you go into detail about that a little bit?

 

[South Bound]

this is just bickering back and forth..... let us try to simplify things a little bit?

South Bound, you mentioned Glorification before, could you go into detail about that a little bit?

Sure. I'd be glad to. Just as soon as you answer my questions to you.

In case you've forgotten:

You mean the work wasn't finished when He said "It is finished"? Was He lying? Was He mistaken?

Who says we'll have those bad qualities when we get to Heaven? Do you know what glorification is?

Really? That's odd, because I don't recall twisting your words at all. Mostly, I just recall asking you a series of questions in order to give you an opportunity to speak for yourself and elaborate on things you've said previously.

How is that twisting your words?

So then, what, exactly happens in the expiation process, if not suffering?

Yes, what about those? Was the debt paid, as He said? Was His work finished? Or was He lying or perhaps mistaken when He said "tetelestai"?

I think it's only fair that you answer questions to you that are already on the table before demanding that I answer your questions. Don't you?

 

[catholichomeschooler]

Sure. I'd be glad to. Just as soon as you answer my questions to you.

In case you've forgotten:

You mean the work wasn't finished when He said "It is finished"? Was He lying? Was He mistaken?

His sacrifice was finished.

 

[South Bound]

His sacrifice was finished.

Don't tell me. Tell your fellow Catholics who believe the sinner must expiate his own sins in Purgatory (that is, unless you disagree with CCC1475, like erose).

 

[catholichomeschooler]

Don't tell me. Tell your fellow Catholics who believe the sinner must expiate his own sins in Purgatory (that is, unless you disagree with CCC1475, like erose).

Purgatory is a process of divine sanctification. Purgatory is for those whose sins have already been forgiven but who are not yet sanctified and holy, ie. ready to be in the presence of God.

Col 1:24
Now I rejoice in what I am suffering for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church.

 

[South Bound]

Purgatory is for those whose sins have already been forgiven

OK. One more time on the merry-go-round. If our sins are forgiven, then why does the Catholic Church say we have to expiate them in Purgatory?

 

[catholichomeschooler]

OK. One more time on the merry-go-round. If our sins are forgiven, then why does the Catholic Church say we have to expiate them in Purgatory?

Only those who have been forgiven will be able to enter heaven.

However, we still must achieve holiness to see God.

Heb: 12:14 Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.

Rom 8:17
Now if we are children, then we are heirs--heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

1 Peter 4:13
But rejoice inasmuch as you participate in the sufferings of Christ, so that you may be overjoyed when his glory is revealed.

 

[South Bound]

Only those who have been forgiven will be able to enter heaven.

However, we still must achieve holiness to see God.

Heb: 12:14 Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.

Rom 8:17
Now if we are children, then we are heirs--heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

1 Peter 4:13
But rejoice inasmuch as you participate in the sufferings of Christ, so that you may be overjoyed when his glory is revealed.

And you believe we become holy by expiating our sins in Purgatory? We believe Christ makes us holy.

 

[catholichomeschooler]

And you believe we become holy by expiating our sins in Purgatory? We believe Christ makes us holy.

Holiness is the result of sanctification. Sanctification is God's work with a cooperative soul.

FYI:

2001 The preparation of man for the reception of grace is already a work of grace. This latter is needed to arouse and sustain our collaboration in justification through faith, and in sanctification through charity. God brings to completion in us what he has begun, "since he who completes his work by cooperating with our will began by working so that we might will it:"50

Indeed we also work, but we are only collaborating with God who works, for his mercy has gone before us. It has gone before us so that we may be healed, and follows us so that once healed, we may be given life; it goes before us so that we may be called, and follows us so that we may be glorified; it goes before us so that we may live devoutly, and follows us so that we may always live with God: for without him we can do nothing.51
2002 God's free initiative demands man's free response, for God has created man in his image by conferring on him, along with freedom, the power to know him and love him. The soul only enters freely into the communion of love. God immediately touches and directly moves the heart of man. He has placed in man a longing for truth and goodness that only he can satisfy. The promises of "eternal life" respond, beyond all hope, to this desire:

If at the end of your very good works . . ., you rested on the seventh day, it was to foretell by the voice of your book that at the end of our works, which are indeed "very good" since you have given them to us, we shall also rest in you on the sabbath of eternal life.52

 

[South Bound]

Holiness is the result of sanctification. Sanctification is God's work with a cooperative soul.

The problem is that sanctification occurs during this life. We're talking about an event that allegedly occurs after death.

 

[Rhamiel]

Sure. I'd be glad to. Just as soon as you answer my questions to you.

In case you've forgotten:

You mean the work wasn't finished when He said "It is finished"? Was He lying? Was He mistaken?

Who says we'll have those bad qualities when we get to Heaven? Do you know what glorification is?

Really? That's odd, because I don't recall twisting your words at all. Mostly, I just recall asking you a series of questions in order to give you an opportunity to speak for yourself and elaborate on things you've said previously.

How is that twisting your words?

So then, what, exactly happens in the expiation process, if not suffering?

Yes, what about those? Was the debt paid, as He said? Was His work finished? Or was He lying or perhaps mistaken when He said "tetelestai"?

I think it's only fair that you answer questions to you that are already on the table before demanding that I answer your questions. Don't you?

Jesus was not lying or mistaken, His work on the cross was done, our sins were paid for.
even though Jesus had did His work on the cross, those benefits were not applied to you until you were regenerated by the Holy Spirit correct?

It seemed to be that Protestants were saying that we would have those problems in heaven. I do know what Glorification is, but I would like to hear your views on it please.

how is it twisting the words? you are not listening to what people are telling you but rather going on with your own false narrative

we do not know, some people think it is painful, some people think it is not painful, there is no singular opinion on this

His work was finished, but it was not fully applied to us yet
for example, before you were Born Again, you were spiritually dead... even though Christ paid your debt 2000 years ago, you did not receive the benefits of that until you were Born Again.

ok I answered your questions, I am sorry if I seemed rude or demanding.
I was just sad that we seemed to be talking past each other instead of exchanging a productive dialogue

 

[Rhamiel]

And you believe we become holy by expiating our sins in Purgatory? We believe Christ makes us holy.

this is like saying "you think a road gets us to New York City? We believe it is a car that gets us to New York City"

Purgatory is not a "thing"

it is like saying, what saves you Jesus or being Born Again?

you would not separate what happens in the Born Again event from Jesus.

maybe this will help you understand how Catholics view Purgatory, it is Jesus who saves you, Jesus who takes away our sins

 

[South Bound]

Jesus was not lying or mistaken, His work on the cross was done, our sins were paid for.

So then, why must we expiate them in Purgatory?

even though Jesus had did His work on the cross, those benefits were not applied to you until you were regenerated by the Holy Spirit correct?

No. They were applied before the foundation of the world.

It seemed to be that Protestants were saying that we would have those problems in heaven. I do know what Glorification is, but I would like to hear your views on it please.

And I'd like you to answer my questions before you demand that I answer yours.

how is it twisting the words? you are not listening to what people are telling you but rather going on with your own false narrative

And how did I do this? You seem to be very good at accusing me of dishonesty, but very bad and providing examples.

we do not know, some people think it is painful, some people think it is not painful, there is no singular opinion on this

Fire isn't painful?

His work was finished, but it was not fully applied to us yet
for example, before you were Born Again, you were spiritually dead... even though Christ paid your debt 2000 years ago, you did not receive the benefits of that until you were Born Again.

So you say. The problem is that the logical outcome of what you're saying is that Christ has secured our salvation, but withholds it from us until we're done working off our sins in Purgatory.

I am sorry if I seemed rude or demanding.

Are you sorry you've repeatedly accused me of dishonesty without giving one shred of evidence to back up your accusation?

this is like saying "you think a road gets us to New York City? We believe it is a car that gets us to New York City"

No, actually, it's not like saying that at all. It's like saying "you think you walked to New York City? We believe we were carried to New York City because we were hopelessly crippled and unable to walk".

Purgatory is not a "thing"

Fine. It's a place. Either way, still a noun.

it is like saying, what saves you Jesus or being Born Again?

How so?

you would not separate what happens in the Born Again event from Jesus.

We would.

maybe this will help you understand how Catholics view Purgatory, it is Jesus who saves you, Jesus who takes away our sins

Then what sins are left for the sinner to expiate in Purgatory?

Purgatory where Glorification happens to the souls of Christians before they enter heaven

Where does the Bible say that glorification happens in Purgatory/

because no unclean thing can enter heaven and we might still have unclean thoughts or temptations at the moment of death

I see. So then, the blood of Jesus doesn't cleanse us from all sin?

Purgatory is not about "us saving our self" or anything like that, Christ is the one who works on our soul, both in this life and in Purgatory.

"Expiating one's sins" ring a bell?

Catholics believe that we are saved by Christ.

No you don't. You've made that abundantly clear. You believe you're saved by participation in Catholic salvific rituals and by expiating your sins in Purgatory.

 

[fhansen]

The problem is that sanctification occurs during this life. We're talking about an event that allegedly occurs after death.

No sinners enter heaven; the pure of heart shall see God. Sanctification and justification are inseparable. God is merciful and just beyond measure. Both east and west ancient churches have historically, from as far back as can be determined, believed in and taught about an after-death state of purification, if need be.

 

[South Bound]

No sinners enter heaven

Agreed. The difference is that you believe we must expiate our sins in Purgatory before Heaven, while we believe Christ expiated our sins on the cross.

Sanctification and justification are inseparable.

I agree. But they're not the same thing. Sanctification follows justification.

God is merciful and just beyond measure. Both east and west ancient churches have historically, from as far back as can be determined, believed in and taught about an after-death state of purification, if need be.

Don't care. We get our doctrine from scripture, not from men.

Atonement was made on the cross for all men.

No. That's Universalism.

And if atonement was made on the cross, then why must the sinner expiate his own sin in Purgatory?

But as we respond to His grace God begins His work of justification/salvation in us in this life

No. God regenerates us and gives us the ability to respond. We do not respond and then are regenerated.

But all who experience the state of purification are already saved

First of all, how do you reconcile this with Hebrews 10:14, which says we're already perfected?

Second, if they're already saved, then why do they have to expiate their own sins in Purgatory?

Ours is from God, the Holy Spirit, because the "we" who get their doctrine exclusively from Scripture often tend to disagree.

Yep. We disagree. We're sinners. The problem is that our disagreement doesn't negate the truth of scripture or the error of Catholic doctrines such as Purgatory.

Incidentally, Catholics disagree, too. Several Catholics have disagreed right here in this very thread. One Catholic poster even disagreed with the CCC.

 

[Rhamiel]

Purgatory where Glorification happens to the souls of Christians before they enter heaven
because no unclean thing can enter heaven and we might still have unclean thoughts or temptations at the moment of death

Purgatory is not about "us saving our self"
or anything like that, Christ is the one who works on our soul, both in this life and in Purgatory.

fire is painful, but fire could also just be symbolic language to symbolize purification when talking about Purgatory.

Catholics believe that we are saved by Christ.

 

[Albion]

Purgatory where Glorification happens to the souls of Christians before they enter heaven

IOW, God cannot glorify anything without sending it to some workshop for spiritual retooling.

Where did that idea come from?

fire is painful, but fire could also just be symbolic language to symbolize purification when talking about Purgatory.

If so, every other verse that has been construed by some people to mean that there is any Purgatory at all could be symbolic language.

 

[fhansen]

Agreed. The difference is that you believe we must expiate our sins in Purgatory before Heaven, while we believe Christ expiated our sins on the cross.

Atonement was made on the cross for all men. Reconciliation with God is possible- to the extent we even care or want to be reconciled at all. But as we respond to His grace God begins His work of justification/salvation in us in this life, the divine Potter molding His clay as humankind finally becomes malleable after their exile here from paradise- the job finished when He deems it so. But all who experience the state of purification are already saved-they just can't yet "see" God face to face-they're probably not even yet capable to the degree that they're not yet pure, still attracted to lesser, created, things over Him first above all else, not yet loving Him with their whole heart, soul, mind, and strength, IOW. It's a matter of the will-always has been.

Don't care. We get our doctrine from scripture, not from men.

Ours is from God, the Holy Spirit, because the "we" who get their doctrine exclusively from Scripture often tend to disagree.

 

[SMA12]

IOW, God cannot glorify anything without sending it to some workshop for spiritual retooling.

No that is not what is being claimed. But as long as you admit that glorification is necessary- may I remind you that is all that we teach Purgatory is: the glorification that takes place before you enter Heaven, whatever that may be.

 

[fhansen]

IOW, God cannot glorify anything without sending it to some workshop for spiritual retooling.

Where did that idea come from?


If so, every other verse that has been construed by some people to mean that there is any Purgatory at all could be symbolic language.

We don't even know with any degree of certainty what hell is like-or heaven for that matter. The CC teaches that the chief punishment of hell-that which makes it hell, IOW, is eternal separation from God, the source of all light, love, goodness, life: the very core of our happiness, in spite of talk about fire and sulfur and worms.

We all suffer already due to this separation from God which was initiated by Adam, whether in this life, in purgatory, or eternally in hell; man can only find his complete and total satisfaction, peace, joy, and happiness in the immediate presence of God, aka "heaven".