Purgatory, if it exists how long do you guys have to stay there?

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Gregory Thompson

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I disagree.
Is actually in the future active indicative.

that's okay . agree to disagree . :)

I don't understand what you are trying to say here. Sorry. Your argument in your previous post regarded the fulfillment of the prophesy of Daniel. My comment related to prophesy being fulfilled literally not figuratively. The Pharisees missed quite a bit. :)

prophecy gets fulfilled in many many ways . but this was something God showed me through the bible, then showing me how it is possible through creation . if you're interested . ask Him.

What part of Daniel is figurative?

The beasts are figurative of the nations they represent . most certainly figurative .

If what you say is true then there would not be any evil in the world, but there is. God uses this evil for His purposes which is why the devil still has access to Him but only as commanded by Him. Jesus already defeated the devil (John 12:31-32), however, until He draws all men to Himself (and that is in progress not yet completed) the devil will continue to be a tool of His will.

That's not true, it just means the devil was forced from the heaven . it doesn't mean he's removed from the earth .
 
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sheina

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I understand it fully. Implied within you are saying anyone who believes in purgatory is not saved.
If you think I was "implying" such a thing, then why do you ask?
I can imagine from reading your responses that you base your interpretation on the writings of dead theologians . since you do the same thing you are condemning her for . why should I stand by and watch such a great hypocrisy?
Name the "dead theologians" on whom you believe I am basing my interpretations? Back up what you say with some proof. Since most Catholics base their interpretations on the ECF (Early Church Fathers) and Traditions and a little bit of Bible (where it will fit in), I would not be so quick to call someone a hypocrite.
the bible says such things bring condemnation upon the individual, now we cannot have that, now can we?
No we can't. Then tell me, why do you do it?
 
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Gregory Thompson

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If you think I was "implying" such a thing, then why do you ask?

oh just to see if you would admit it . no worries .

Name the "dead theologians" on whom you believe I am basing my interpretations? Back up what you say with some proof. Since most Catholics base their interpretations on the ECF (Early Church Fathers) and Traditions and a little bit of Bible (where it will fit in), I would not be so quick to call someone a hypocrite.
oh all those old reformation guys stop playing coy . hehhee

No we can't. Then tell me, why do you do it?
very weak . you need a better come back than that . where is all that gusto you had earlier when bullying those catholics?
 
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Hentenza

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that's okay . agree to disagree . :)

Yep. :)

prophecy gets fulfilled in many many ways . but this was something God showed me through the bible, then showing me how it is possible through creation . if you're interested . ask Him.

Brother, my conversations with the Lord are long some times. :amen:

The beasts are figurative of the nations they represent . most certainly figurative .

The beasts are indeed figurative but the nations are not. Could you please show one single biblical prophesy that was not fulfilled literally?


That's not true, it just means the devil was forced from the heaven . it doesn't mean he's removed from the earth .

I understand that but your argument rests on Jesus final win over satan already being fully fulfilled. I agree that by His blood satan has been defeated but I will contend that the fulfillment of this victory will happen at the end of times when God puts all of His enemies under Jesus feet and satan is cast in the lake of fire. That will be the final victory but until then satan has to have access to God to continue accusing the brethren.

Do you think that the battle between Michael the archangel and his angels against satan and his angels is symbolic?
 
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Hentenza

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If you think I was "implying" such a thing, then why do you ask?

Name the "dead theologians" on whom you believe I am basing my interpretations? Back up what you say with some proof. Since most Catholics base their interpretations on the ECF (Early Church Fathers) and Traditions and a little bit of Bible (where it will fit in), I would not be so quick to call someone a hypocrite.

No we can't. Then tell me, why do you do it?

oh just to see if you would admit it . no worries .

oh all those old reformation guys stop playing coy . hehhee

very weak . you need a better come back than that . where is all that gusto you had earlier when bullying those catholics?

Come on you two, cut it off. We are all brothers and sisters here. :hug::hug:
 
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Gregory Thompson

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Yep. :)



Brother, my conversations with the Lord are long some times. :amen:

:)


The beasts are indeed figurative but the nations are not. Could you please show one single biblical prophesy that was not fulfilled literally?

I understand that but your argument rests on Jesus final win over satan already being fully fulfilled. I agree that by His blood satan has been defeated but I will contend that the fulfillment of this victory will happen at the end of times when God puts all of His enemies under Jesus feet and satan is cast in the lake of fire. That will be the final victory but until then satan has to have access to God to continue accusing the brethren.

Do you think that the battle between Michael the archangel and his angels against satan and his angels is symbolic?

I think our divide is not in interpretation ethic but in what God has taught us individually .
 
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Hentenza

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:)




I think our divide is not in interpretation ethic but in what God has taught us individually .

Interesting perspective. Don't tell LLOJ or he'll start a thread about it. ;):D
 
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Preecher

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I like how you completely skip the post that refutes your thoughts and continue asserting your misconceptions as if nothing happened.

Purgatory exists to answer a single question: how does a saved soul that has the remaining stain of sin on it get into heaven, a sinless place? Anyone in purgatory is already saved.

There is nothing more or less to the concept.
Like I said, purgatory is a deception. Many will go to Hell trusting in the false purgatory doctrine. We can't say we weren't warned can we?
 
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Preecher

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Rev. 12 is future.
Exactly! When Satan is cast out it will be obvious.

Revelation 12:12 (KJV)
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
 
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AveMaria_45

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How about what YOU believe about biblical salvation...not what some Catholic apologist believes and teaches.

i believe what my church says just like you believe what you say. i just don't know who you are but i know who my church is. why didn't you read the lesson? are you scared?
 
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sheina

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i believe what my church says just like you believe what you say. i just don't know who you are but i know who my church is. why didn't you read the lesson? are you scared?
So you follow the magesterium of the Roman Catholic Church? Don't you ever check out what the church says with what the Bible says? Or does your church tell you that you cannot do this and they (the church) has to "help" you interpret the Bible?

I believe what the Bible says...it is my only authority for my Christian faith and living.

Scared of Catholic teachings? What a strange question to ask. I don't read them because the majority of those teachings are contrary to what the Bible teaches. Give me a good reason why I should read something that I know to be contrary to what what I believe?
 
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AveMaria_45

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ok here's your Bible proof from the encyclopedia,


Old Testament


The tradition of the Jews is put forth with precision and clearness in 2 Maccabees. Judas, the commander of the forces of Israel,
making a gathering . . . sent twelve thousand drachmas of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection (For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead). And because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them. It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins. (2 Maccabees 12:43-46)
At the time of the Maccabees the leaders of the people of God had no hesitation in asserting the efficacy of prayers offered for the dead, in order that those who had departed this life might find pardon for their sins and the hope of eternal resurrection.


New Testament


There are several passages in the New Testament that point to a process of purification after death. Thus, Jesus Christ declares (Matthew 12:32): "And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come." According to St. Isidore of Seville (Deord. creatur., c. xiv, n. 6) these words prove that in the next life "some sins will be forgiven and purged away by a certain purifying fire." St. Augustine also argues "that some sinners are not forgiven either in this world or in the next would not be truly said unless there were other [sinners] who, though not forgiven in this world, are forgiven in the world to come" (City of God XXI.24). The same interpretation is given by Gregory the Great (Dial., IV, xxxix); St. Bede (commentary on this text); St. Bernard (Sermo lxvi in Cantic., n. 11) and other eminent theological writers.
A further argument is supplied by St. Paul in 1 Corinthians 3:11-15:
"For other foundation no man can lay, but that which is laid; which is Christ Jesus. Now if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay stubble: Every man's work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man's work, of what sort it is. If any man's work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire."
While this passage presents considerable difficulty, it is regarded by many of the Fathers and theologians as evidence for the existence of an intermediate state in which the dross of lighter transgressions will be burnt away, and the soul thus purified will be saved. This, according to Bellarmine (De Purg., I, 5), is the interpretation commonly given by the Fathers and theologians; and he cites to this effect:
  • St. Ambrose (commentary on the text, and Sermo xx in Ps. cxvii),
  • St. Jerome, (Comm. in Amos, c. iv),
  • St. Augustine (Enarration on Psalm 37),
  • St. Gregory (Dial., IV, xxxix), and
  • Origen (Hom. vi in Exod.).
See also St. Thomas, "Contra Gentes,", IV, 91. For a discussion of the exegetical problem, see Atzberger, "Die christliche Eschatologie", p. 275
 
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Gregory Thompson

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I expect to see a lot of Catholics in God's Kingdom. And a lot rejected. As with nearly all religious groups. Some fear God, some don't.

Yet the bible says by love becoming complete within us we have confidence on the day of judgment. and that perfect love casts out all fear . because fear has to do with fear of punishment . but our salvation is based on Christ indwelling us . the Hope of glory .
 
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