Purgatory and Sin Offerings?

[BNR32FAN]

I don't think any Catholic will deny that our understanding of doctrines will improve and grow over time. I realize that Protestants often think they have neat little "gotcha" facts when they point to a given doctrine being defined in a given year or at a given council or something. But it's really nothing of the sort and, frankly, tends to suggest that the Protestant doesn't really understand as much as he thinks he does.

Yes you said that before. You were mistaken then and remain so now.

It nevertheless remains our interpretation. Our Lord specified that one particular sin won't be forgiven. We believe it's possible that He can forgive other sins after death. Whether or not you agree with that isn't the issue. We agree with that, which is what counts when it comes to our beliefs.

No I proved that the catechism says that Jesus’ sacrifice does not pay for all our sins. They believe some sins are forgiven in this world and some are forgiven in the next world. But those sins are paid for by suffering in purgatory not by Jesus’ sacrifice. How can you not see that?

 

[thecolorsblend]

So to say Paul is talking about purgatory in verses 11-15 doesn’t make sense.

And yet, my Church thinks it does. So when she teaches the world, that's what she teaches. You can agree or you can disagree but that won't change what my Church teaches. I'll stick with the Catholic Church rather than all these novel innovations that outsiders are so fond of.

 

[thecolorsblend]

No I proved that the catechism says that Jesus’ sacrifice does not pay for all our sins. They believe some sins are forgiven in this world and some are forgiven in the next world. But those sins are paid for by suffering in purgatory not by Jesus’ sacrifice. How can you not see that?

I suppose it's because I see things from the Church's point of view rather than a simple, reductionist viewpoint.

 

[BNR32FAN]

It nevertheless remains our interpretation. Our Lord specified that one particular sin won't be forgiven. We believe it's possible that He can forgive other sins after death. Whether or not you agree with that isn't the issue. We agree with that, which is what counts when it comes to our beliefs

You believe others can be forgiven after death why? What scriptures are you basing this belief on? Surely you don’t just make assumptions in your interpretations without anything to support them do you?

 

[BNR32FAN]

I suppose it's because I see things from the Church's point of view rather than a simple, reductionist viewpoint.

One churches view, out of all of Christianity only the Roman church believes in purgatory. Including the Orthodox and Oriental churches which means that purgatory was not taught or believed before 1054AD.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I suppose it's because I see things from the Church's point of view rather than a simple, reductionist viewpoint.

You don’t find it the least bit conspicuous that this doctrine was formulated at exactly the same time the Roman church was abusing indulgences despite their “evidence” has been around for over a thousand years prior to the formulation of the doctrine? And during all that time nobody claimed anything about purgatory. And what was the result? Indulgences were solicited for the dead as well as the living.

 

[BNR32FAN]

And yet, my Church thinks it does. So when she teaches the world, that's what she teaches. You can agree or you can disagree but that won't change what my Church teaches. I'll stick with the Catholic Church rather than all these novel innovations that outsiders are so fond of.

It’s called testing your beliefs brother.

 

[W2L]

Indulgences were solicited for the dead as well as the living.

shocking. Why would people ever trust such a church?

 

[BNR32FAN]

I suppose it's because I see things from the Church's point of view rather than a simple, reductionist viewpoint.

I see with my own eyes not with someone else’s. I believe in many Catholic doctrines brother but purgatory is one that I cannot accept.

 

[thecolorsblend]

You believe others can be forgiven after death why?

I have explained why.

What scriptures are you basing this belief on?

I have cited them.

Surely you don’t just make assumptions in your interpretations without anything to support them do you?

I don't. But if I did, what is it to you?

One churches view, out of all of Christianity only the Roman church believes in purgatory.

Another way of looking at it is 1 billion Catholics worldwide are obligated to believe in Purgatory.

purgatory was not taught or believed before 1054AD.

Oh?

-- Clement of Alexandria
The believer through discipline divests himself of his passions and passes to the mansion which is better than the former one, passes to the greatest torment, taking with him the characteristic of repentance for the faults he may have committed after baptism. He is tortured then still more, not yet attaining what he sees others have acquired. The greatest torments are assigned to the believer, for God's righteousness is good, and His goodness righteous, and though these punishments cease in the course of the expiation and purification of each one, "yet" etc. (Patres Groeci. IX, col. 332 [A.D. 150-215]).

-- Origen
If a man departs this life with lighter faults, he is condemned to fire which burns away the lighter materials, and prepares the soul for the kingdom of God, where nothing defiled may enter. For if on the foundation of Christ you have built not only gold and silver and precious stones (I Cor., 3); but also wood and hay and stubble, what do you expect when the soul shall be separated from the body? Would you enter into heaven with your wood and hay and stubble and thus defile the kingdom of God; or on account of these hindrances would you remain without and receive no reward for your gold and silver and precious stones? Neither is this just. It remains then that you be committed to the fire which will burn the light materials; for our God to those who can comprehend heavenly things is called a cleansing fire. But this fire consumes not the creature, but what the creature has himself built, wood, and hay and stubble. It is manifest that the fire destroys the wood of our transgressions and then returns to us the reward of our great works. (Patres Groeci. XIII, col. 445, 448 [A.D. 185-232]).

"As John stood near the Jordan among those who came to be baptized, accepting those who confessed their vices and their sins and rejecting the rest ... so will the Lord Jesus Christ stand in a river of fire next to a flaming sword and Baptize all those who should go to Paradise after they die, but who lack purgation... But those who do not bear the mark of the first Baptism will not be baptized in the bath of fire. One must first be Baptized in water and Spirit so that, when the river of fire is reached, the marks of the baths of water and Spirit will remain as signs that one is worthy of receiving the Baptism of fire in Jesus Christ." (Origen, Commentary on Luke, 24th Homily, before 253 A.D)

-- Tertullian
"This place, the Bosom of Abraham, though not in Heaven, and yet above hell, offers the souls of the righteous an interim refreshment until the end of all things brings about the general resurrection and the final reward." (Tertullian, Against Marcion, 4:34, before 220 A.D.)

-- Cyprian
It is one thing to stand for pardon, another thing to attain to glory; it is one thing, when cast into prison, not to go out thence until one has paid the uttermost farthing; another thing at once to receive the wages of faith and courage. It is one thing, tortured by long suffering for sins, to be cleansed and long purged by fire; another to have purged all sins by suffering. It is one thing, in fine, to be in suspense till the sentence of God at the Day of judgment; another to be at once crowned by the Lord (Letters 51[55]:20 [A.D. 253]).

 

[thecolorsblend]

You don’t find it the least bit conspicuous that this doctrine was formulated at exactly the same time the Roman church was abusing indulgences despite their “evidence” has been around for over a thousand years prior to the formulation of the doctrine? And during all that time nobody claimed anything about purgatory. And what was the result? Indulgences were solicited for the dead as well as the living.

I provided quotes from the Church Fathers above.

It’s called testing your beliefs brother.

Golly.

I see with my own eyes not with someone else’s. I believe in many Catholic doctrines brother but purgatory is one that I cannot accept.

You're entitled to your opinion.

 

[BNR32FAN]

shocking. Why would people ever trust such a church?

That’s not even close to the worst part of what was going on at that time but I’m trying to refrain from mentioning it. It’s not my intention to attack the church. Just to present the facts.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I provided quotes from the Church Fathers above.

Golly.

You're entitled to your opinion.

Like I said in my first post brother I would rather be wrong about the existence of purgatory and fully trust in Jesus Christ as my savior. God bless you I hope I’m right and none of us have to suffer. And don’t worry when we’re both in heaven I won’t say HAHA I TOLD YA SO!! I’ll just quietly smile Lol

 

[Major1]

I have posted a few in the past. IIRC, you did not believe that they relate to Purgatory. Such is obviously your right but, frankly, the only thing that really matters is that Catholics believe those passages relate to Purgatory.

Coy? All I did was post a link to the radio show... which can be found at...

The Bible Blueprint for Purgatory | Catholic Answers

My objective wasn't to post scriptures. It was to post a link to the radio show. Thus, I posted a link to the radio show. I therefore fulfilled my objective.

Your objective seems to be not listening to the radio show. Which is your choice but there's nothing coy about me posting a link to something which I believe may benefit others if they have questions about Purgatory.

NO SIR you have not posted any such thing. I do not want to be argumentative with you and forgive me as it does look like that is the case.

However........you could not have done that and you will not be able to do that because the fact is that THERE IS NOT ONE SINGLE BIBLE VERSE TO VALIDATE PURGATORY.

I only have ONE objective and that is to get out the Word of God. There is absolutely NO reason to listen to a Catholic radio show that will do nothing but expound on the in-Biblical doctrine of Purgatory by telling me about Catholic Traditions.

Purgatory is a man made teaching from the minds of Sinners and has nothing to do with the Bible whatsoever.

Now your can dodge the questions and twist the facts but sooner or later YOU and every Catholic believer will come face to face with the fact that Purgatory is what makes the whole Catholic system work.

Take out Purgatory and it’s a hard sell to be a Catholic. Purgatory is the safety net, when you die, you don’t go to hell. You go to Purgatory and get things sorted out and finally get to heaven if you’ve been a good Catholic.

The bottom line facts are that in the Catholic system you can never know you’re going to heaven. You just keep trying and trying…in a long journey toward perfection. To me that seems like it’s pretty discouraging. People in that system are guilt-ridden, fear-ridden and have no knowledge of whether or not they’re going to get into the Kingdom.

If there’s no Purgatory, there’s no safety net to catch me and give me some opportunity to get into heaven. It’s a second chance, it’s another chance after death”.
Purgatory: Purifying Fire or False Doctrine Fable
(from “The Pope and the Papacy“).

 

[Major1]

1 Corinthians 3:11-15 Purgatory?


The Roman Catholic Church teaches that 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 is evidence of purgatory, but is it? Let’s take a closer look.

“For no one can lay any foundation other than the one we already have Jesus Christ. Anyone who builds on that foundation may use a variety of materials gold, silver, jewels, wood, hay, or straw. But on the judgment day, fire will reveal what kind of work each builder has done. The fire will show if a person’s work has any value. If the work survives, that builder will receive a reward. But if the work is burned up, the builder will suffer great loss. The builder will be saved, but like someone barely escaping through a wall of flames.”

1 Corinthians 3:11-15

Looking at these verses by themselves it sure looks like it could be referring to purgatory. But we also need to understand that this is a parable because obviously no one can build on the foundation of Christ with “gold, silver, jewels, wood, hay, or straw.” So let’s look at strong’s dictionary for the definition of the word parable.

Parable

παροιμία

Transliteration:

paroimía

Pronounce:

par-oy-mee'-ah

Part of Speech:

Noun Feminine

Language:

greek

Description:

1) a saying out of the usual course or deviating from the usual manner of speaking a) a current or trite saying, a proverb

2) any dark saying which shadows forth some didactic truth a) esp. a symbolic or figurative saying b) speech or discourse in which a thing is illustrated by the use of similes and comparisons c) an allegory

1) extended and elaborate metaphor


Now when we’re dealing with a parable we need to understand that parables are used to elaborate on a particular subject that is currently being discussed. So let’s take a look at what is being discussed in verses 1-10 that Paul is elaborating on.


“Dear brothers and sisters, when I was with you I couldn’t talk to you as I would to spiritual people. I had to talk as though you belonged to this world or as though you were infants in Christ. I had to feed you with milk, not with solid food, because you weren’t ready for anything stronger. And you still aren’t ready, for you are still controlled by your sinful nature. You are jealous of one another and quarrel with each other. Doesn’t that prove you are controlled by your sinful nature? Aren’t you living like people of the world? When one of you says, “I am a follower of Paul,” and another says, “I follow Apollos,” aren’t you acting just like people of the world? After all, who is Apollos? Who is Paul? We are only God’s servants through whom you believed the Good News. Each of us did the work the Lord gave us. I planted the seed in your hearts, and Apollos watered it, but it was God who made it grow. It’s not important who does the planting, or who does the watering. What’s important is that God makes the seed grow. The one who plants and the one who waters work together with the same purpose. And both will be rewarded for their own hard work. For we are both God’s workers. And you are God’s field. You are God’s building. Because of God’s grace to me, I have laid the foundation like an expert builder. Now others are building on it. But whoever is building on this foundation must be very careful.”

1 Corinthians 3:1-10

Paul is teaching the Corinthians that they shouldn’t argue and boast about some being a follower of Paul and some being a follower of Apollos because they each did the work God had given them and they both were working together for the same purpose. He then goes on to explain in verse 8 that both himself and Apollos will be rewarded according to their deeds. Verse 8 is the key to his parable. He explains that the Corinthians (believers) are God’s building and both he and Apollos are God’s workers and he has laid the foundation like a “expert builder”. By expert builder Paul is referring to someone who is teaching the good news. He says whoever builds on this foundation cannot lay any foundation other than Jesus Christ. Then he begins his parable to elaborate on what he has just said. Notice that Paul has not mentioned forgiveness of sin, sanctification, justification, purifying, salvation, heaven or anything else remotely concerning purgatory. Now when we read his parable in this context it makes perfect sense. Paul is describing works and how our works will be rewarded in heaven. Of course our reward is not salvation because our salvation is from God’s grace. The definition of grace is a free and unmerited favor of God.

So to say Paul is talking about purgatory in verses 11-15 doesn’t make sense. That would mean that Paul was discussing a specific topic then gave a parable about a complete different topic and never gave any kind of substantiating statements afterward to confirm that he had changed the subject. This would be like if I was explaining to someone how to ride a bicycle then suddenly said don’t count your chickens until they hatch. The person I’m talking to would look at me like I’m crazy and would be confused because my parable doesn’t support the subject being discussed.

Good comment! I have said before and say it again, there is not one single Scripture in the Bible that validates or even suggests the Catholic tradition of Purgatory.

Over the centuries billions of dollars have been paid to Roman Catholic priests to obtain relief from imaginary sufferings in Purgatory’s fire. The Catholic clergy has always taught that the period of suffering in Purgatory can be shortened by purchasing indulgences and novenas, buying Mass cards and providing gifts of money. When a Catholic dies, money is extracted from mourning loved ones to shorten the deceased’s punishment in Purgatory.

The concept of a terrifying prison with a purging fire, governed by religious leaders, is a most brilliant invention. It holds people captive, not only in this life but also in the next life. NO ONE knows how long one stays in Purgatory!!!!!
NO ONE knows how mush suffering must be done before they can be released.
NO ONE knows how many Masses must be purchased.

The Pope and Catholic clergy will not say how many years people have to suffer for their sins or how many Masses must be purchased before they can be released from the flames. This dreadful fear and uncertainty is the most ruthless form of religious bondage and deception!

And yet, as is seen right here in black and white comments by RCC believers, they have bought into the scheme and defend it to their death.

 

[Major1]

Prayers for the dead *with the intention of alleviating their suffering undergone before they enter Heaven*, though, is.

And that would only be applicable IF there was a Purgatory, but since there is NO mention of such a place or a process in the Scriptures it is then a mute point.

 

[Major1]

I don't think any Catholic will deny that our understanding of doctrines will improve and grow over time. I realize that Protestants often think they have neat little "gotcha" facts when they point to a given doctrine being defined in a given year or at a given council or something. But it's really nothing of the sort and, frankly, tends to suggest that the Protestant doesn't really understand as much as he thinks he does.

Yes you said that before. You were mistaken then and remain so now.

It nevertheless remains our interpretation. Our Lord specified that one particular sin won't be forgiven. We believe it's possible that He can forgive other sins after death. Whether or not you agree with that isn't the issue. We agree with that, which is what counts when it comes to our beliefs.

MY dear friend. I know that you are a committed Catholic and actually I admire your persistence in trying to make the world accept something which it already knows it wrong and is nothing more than a hoax.

However what you and all Catholics are doing is trying to change and manipulate REAL HISTORY just as you are doing the Bible.

FACTS are FACTS and HISTOY is REAL LIFE FACTS. You can chose to distort it or manipulate it but it can not be changed my dear friend.

There is absolutely NO BIBLE SCRIPTURES to support what you believe and promote.

In fact, neither the word nor the concept of sin-purifying fire is found in Scripture.

FACTS...........The Vatican was confronted with this in the 16th century when the Reformers protested its practice of buying and selling of God’s grace through indulgences. Backed into a corner, the Council of Trent added the apocryphal books to its canon of Scripture. Rome now declares there is scriptural support for purgatory in the apocryphal book of Second Maccabees. The council ignored the fact that the Jewish scribes never recognized the apocryphal books as inspired or part of the Hebrew Scriptures. They were never included because of their many historical, theological and geographical errors. Since God is not the author of error, He obviously did not inspire the writers of the Apocrypha. This is why the Apocrypha was never included in the original canon of 66 books.

The apocryphal verses Rome uses to defend its doctrine of Purgatory refer to Jewish soldiers who died wearing pagan amulets around their necks. Judas Maccabees “sent twelve thousand drachmas of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead…Judas hoped that these men who died fighting for the cause of God and religion, might find mercy: either because they might be excused from mortal sin by ignorance; or might have repented of their sin, at least at their death.

It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins” (2 Maccabees 12:43-46). Rome argues that since Judas Maccabees prayed for the dead, there must be hope for those who die in sin. This of course, goes directly against God’s Word which declares in Hebrews 9:22......
“It is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment”.

Rome’s attempt to give credence to Purgatory by using this ungodly practice of the Jews, who had a history of disobeying God, is pathetic.

 

[Major1]

They still believe in a state of purging of sorts. But even that differs in details.

One of my favorite illustrations is from St. Gregory of Nyssa, about his sister St. Macrina. She was his "tutor" of sorts, and taught him much of the Faith. As she was on her deathbed, she gave one last lesson about death. She related a man's life to building a house. Depending on what was in your life, your house would reflect that with elaborate furnishings, and construction. But at death, it's like this whole house crashes on top of you. When Jesus (and he always does) takes you out of the rubble to welcome you, the pain you'll bear in getting out of the rubble (planks of wood jammed into your sides or something) will all depend on how your house was built. If you had died to the world and took up your cross in this life, there'd be little in your house's construction that will make it painful to adapt to heaven. But if you died with all kinds of worldly attachments and concerns, then it'll be harder to adapt.

You could call it a "purging", I guess, but it's not a "place".

Such a "purging process" in none existent in the Scriptures. What you are describing is Catholic Traditions of sinners and nothing more.

God’s Word leaves absolutely no possibility for sin to be purged away by anything other than the blood of Jesus Christ. The beloved apostle John penned these words with irrefutable clarity. He wrote in 1 John 1:7 & 9..........
“The blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin” and “all unrighteousness”.

John did not say “some” sins or “most” sins, but all sin! This soundly rebukes the need for a sin-purging fire.

God’s Word also declares n Hebrews 9:22.......
“All things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness”.

Hebrews 1:3 says that when Jesus........ “made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high”.

Those who desire to have their sins purged need to trust a person, not a place or a Process!!!!. The blood of Christ is the only cleansing agent for sin! Those who come to the cross of Christ must come with empty hands of faith, bringing nothing but their sins.

 

[straykat]

Such a "purging process" in none existent in the Scriptures. What you are describing is Catholic Traditions of sinners and nothing more.

God’s Word leaves absolutely no possibility for sin to be purged away by anything other than the blood of Jesus Christ. The beloved apostle John penned these words with irrefutable clarity. He wrote in 1 John 1:7 & 9..........
“The blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin” and “all unrighteousness”.

John did not say “some” sins or “most” sins, but all sin! This soundly rebukes the need for a sin-purging fire.

God’s Word also declares n Hebrews 9:22.......
“All things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness”.

Hebrews 1:3 says that when Jesus........ “made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high”.

Those who desire to have their sins purged need to trust a person, not a place or a Process!!!!. The blood of Christ is the only cleansing agent for sin! Those who come to the cross of Christ must come with empty hands of faith, bringing nothing but their sins.

It has nothing to do with Catholics, in the typical sense. Man, every time a Protestant seems to encounter anything old, they go "Catholic!" Catholics are relatively recent, as you know them. Not much older than Protestants.

 

[Major1]

Again, it's at Church Fathers.

It is really easy to show that early Christians did not believe in a place called purgatory. In what is called "the oldest complete Christian sermon that has survived" (Holmes M.W. The Apostolic Fathers: Greek Texts and English Translations, 2nd ed. Baker Books, Grand Rapids, 2004, p. 102; note it is also called 2 Clement, but scholars, including Catholic ones, do not believe that Clement wrote it), there is a passage that seems to eliminate the idea of purgatory:

8:2 For in like manner as the potter, if he be making a vessel, and it get twisted or crushed in his hands, reshapeth it again; but if he have once put it into the fiery oven, he will no longer mend it: so also let us, while we are in this world, repent with our whole heart of the evil things which we have done in the flesh, that we may be saved by the Lord, while we have yet time for repentance.

8:3 For after that we have departed out of the world, we can no more make confession there, or repent any more.

8:4 Wherefore, brethren, if we will have done the will of the Father and kept the flesh pure and guarded the commandments of the Lord, we will receive life eternal.

19:3 Let us therefore practice righteousness that we may be saved unto the end. Blessed are they that obey these ordinances. Though they may endure affliction for a short time in the world, they will gather the immortal fruit of the resurrection. (Lightfoot J.B. Edited and completed by J.R. Hammer. The Apostolic Fathers: Revised Texts with Short Introductions and English Translations. Macmillan, London, 1891. With any Greek retranslated was based the Greek text as shown in Holmes M.W. The Apostolic Fathers: Greek Texts and English Translations, 2nd ed. Baker Books, Grand Rapids, 2004, pp. 113,115,127)