Purgatory And Prayers For The Dead.

[The Liturgist]

And then, of course, we can further complicate matters with the Lunar Calendar in use in the Far East, with its cycle of astrological years. I have yet to comprehend how they determine which day to celebrate the New Year.

Those calendars have never been used by a Christian denomination as far as I am aware, although before the genocide of Tamerlane the Church of the East did have a presence in Mongolia, China and Tibet.

 

[The Liturgist]

Actually I see no hope for an actual unified scientifically based calendar that Christians of all stripes could agree to. Love to see it but not holding my breath for it.

That’s sound of you because such a calendar is an impossibility. The other issue is that it would distort the number of years over time since the important events of the Incarnation and the early church, which are all based on years that were 365.25 days long. But years since the adoption of the Gregorian calendar are a different length, but conversely the Gregorian is more accurate with regards to the timing of the vernal equinox in the Northern hemisphere.

But since the last time a calendar change happened it caused a horrible schism, our best bet is to sigh and forget the manner.

I myself used to try to figure out an ecumenical solution to the problem, and I worked out one involving variable-length seconds. Then I realized that wouldn’t work either.

 

[linux.poet]

I believe that purgatory is the reality in which I live right now, and that there will be no need to put me through more sanctification process trials after I am dead.

I did enjoy Dante's Purgatorio, but I found his poem and the trials within it to be more insightful about the reality I am in now than any expectation of suffering in the afterlife.

 

[chevyontheriver]

I believe that purgatory is the reality in which I live right now, and that there will be no need to put me through more sanctification process trials after I am dead.

For some of us that is indeed true. Not that this 'is' purgatory but that we can do a lot of reparation for sins by our suffering in the here and now. Catholics even have a saying about suffering; "Offer it up" we say so at least our sufferings can be of some benefit to ourselves or for others.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I believe that purgatory is the reality in which I live right now, and that there will be no need to put me through more sanctification process trials after I am dead.

I did enjoy Dante's Purgatorio, but I found his poem and the trials within it to be more insightful about the reality I am in now than any expectation of suffering in the afterlife.

I like the revised and reformed view of Purgatory that seems to be quite prevalent now in the RCC. Purgation (aka Purgatory) is, according to my sources, actually a pleasant process, much like taking a shower and getting dressed prior to going to a party.

 

[chevyontheriver]

I like the revised and reformed view of Purgatory that seems to be quite prevalent now in the RCC. Purgation (aka Purgatory) is, according to my sources, actually a pleasant process, much like taking a shower and getting dressed prior to going to a party.

A very cold shower maybe, or a way too hot shower. Not the fires of Hell but the hot fire of the love of Jesus refining us who end up there. I think it was overstated to say that purgatory was like the fires of hell. I think it is way understated to call it a shower. A refiner's fire does seem apropos.

 

[bbbbbbb]

A very cold shower maybe, or a way too hot shower. Not the fires of Hell but the hot fire of the love of Jesus refining us who end up there. I think it was overstated to say that purgatory was like the fires of hell. I think it is way understated to call it a shower. A refiner's fire does seem apropos.

That is a conundrum. If Purgatory is not such a nasty place and if it is not defined by time, then the whole system of indulgences comes into question.

 

[chevyontheriver]

That is a conundrum. If Purgatory is not such a nasty place and if it is not defined by time, then the whole system of indulgences comes into question.

No. Indulgences with a time element were not for time off purgatory but for time off a penance. Back in the day there were some really serious penances, years even. So the 'conundrum' is a false one, like a dilemma with only one horn maybe. It's a common misunderstanding, and lots of Catholics think the same thing.

 

[bbbbbbb]

No. Indulgences with a time element were not for time off purgatory but for time off a penance. Back in the day there were some really serious penances, years even. So the 'conundrum' is a false one, like a dilemma with only one horn maybe. It's a common misunderstanding, and lots of Catholics think the same thing.

Thank you for the clarification. You are the first Catholic to explain this to me. I appreciate it.

How long would a penance last, typically?

 

[chevyontheriver]

Thank you for the clarification. You are the first Catholic to explain this to me. I appreciate it.

How long would a penance last, typically?

For murder there was the possibility of it being for the rest of your life. Which could mean that you could sit at the back of the Church for the liturgy of the word, as if you were a catechumen, but then have to leave and you would not be able to receive the Eucharist. So potentially a whole lifetime of penitence to work on repairing the damage you did. Adultery or apostasy could have even multi-year penances. It seemed a bit harsh by modern standards. So the evolution of indulgences was pushed by lay people who wanted to apply their works of reparation for people with long penances. A way of doing something for them with parts of the community helping other parts. This continues today. The cloistered nuns up on the hill pray and pray and sacrifice, applying lots of that for the assistance of sinners and the reparations needed because of their sins. And a priest who tells a penitent to pray three Hail Marys, a good priest anyway, will spend a long long time praying a whole lot more as a reparation he does for the penitent. Point is we are actively doing reparations for each other as a community. Things don't need to be as harsh as they were 1800 years ago. A little bit of that again could be heathy, taking sin's consequences seriously again.

 

[Valletta]

I like the revised and reformed view of Purgatory that seems to be quite prevalent now in the RCC. Purgation (aka Purgatory) is, according to my sources, actually a pleasant process, much like taking a shower and getting dressed prior to going to a party.

The Word of God specifically tells us little, we know purgatory exists, the purification is spoken of in the Bible. Whether it is a state or place we do not know, we do know that prayers are offered for those in purgatory. The rest is speculation based upon the Word of God, I consider it the same as to speculate about what Heaven may be like. The obvious negative is not being in Heaven with God, the positive is that you will be there after purgatory. In my opinion being separated from God in Heaven is a lot worse that taking a shower, but you are free to believe otherwise. Please don't tell people what is supposedly "prevalent" in the Catholic Church without providing supporting evidence. I asked you multiple times to support your claim that there is a "very strong movement in the Catholic Church in Vietnam to recognize Mary as the fourth member of the eternal Godhead."

 

[bbbbbbb]

For murder there was the possibility of it being for the rest of your life. Which could mean that you could sit at the back of the Church for the liturgy of the word, as if you were a catechumen, but then have to leave and you would not be able to receive the Eucharist. So potentially a whole lifetime of penitence to work on repairing the damage you did. Adultery or apostasy could have even multi-year penances. It seemed a bit harsh by modern standards. So the evolution of indulgences was pushed by lay people who wanted to apply their works of reparation for people with long penances. A way of doing something for them with parts of the community helping other parts. This continues today. The cloistered nuns up on the hill pray and pray and sacrifice, applying lots of that for the assistance of sinners and the reparations needed because of their sins. And a priest who tells a penitent to pray three Hail Marys, a good priest anyway, will spend a long long time praying a whole lot more as a reparation he does for the penitent. Point is we are actively doing reparations for each other as a community. Things don't need to be as harsh as they were 1800 years ago. A little bit of that again could be heathy, taking sin's consequences seriously again.

Thanks again. What happens to the Catholic when he or she dies before the penance is completed?

 

[chevyontheriver]

Thanks again. What happens to the Catholic when he or she dies before the penance is completed?

IF, big IF, they die in friendship with Jesus, AKA they are saved already, then they are purged of their remaining bad inclinations and bad habits and any impure thing that remains in them.

Ask yourself from what you know of yourself today; are you ready to stand before God Almighty just as you are or do you need any refinements in your attitudes and habits? Do you have a plan to be perfected before you die? What if death comes early for you? Nothing imperfect enters heaven. How is that getting to perfection accomplished in you?

Jesus ain’t done with me yet. One way or another He will see to my purgation. It’s actually comforting to know that it may not be easy but it is the plan if I can just minimally persevere in friendship with Jesus.

 

[Valletta]

Thanks again. What happens to the Catholic when he or she dies before the penance is completed?

Your question would ask many to question if you understand the depths of the mercy of God.

 

[chevyontheriver]

The central issue here would be that some human cooperation is needed in sanctification and not everybody sees that. We are made holy WITH our consent and cooperation. Otherwise we remain carnal and quite unholy. Maybe saved, maybe, but not mature in Christ, and no renewal of our minds. But only the fully sanctified are ready to see God in the beatific vision. So one way or another if we are saved we still need to be sanctified. We can do that in the here and now or we can put it off but it will happen. At least it will happen for the saved. Those others do not need sanctification for where they are going.

So we look at people, and we cannot judge their souls but we can get a clue enough to guess at sanctification. Enough to guess at the pitiful levels of our own sanctification. And we know that big Mack truck with our name on it might be just over the next hill. How do we, who are not very sanctified, get that way before we get to crest that next hill. What, some gargantuan act of faith? If you one has never had a 'come to Jesus' moment that would be a very good idea. Quickly before getting to the top of that hill. But then comes the work of being a disciple, of acting on a new faith, of repairing the psychic and interpersonal and creational damage that is very evident in everybody and everything around us. So we start a life of reparation in the time we have left. We get to the top of the hill and there is the Mack truck. The reparation continues nonetheless. That's purgatory.

The reason some just cant grasp it is because they have it in their heads that Jesus already did it all without our need for consent or cooperation. Saved, sanctified, renewed in mind, with zero bad habits remaining, zero imperfect attitudes, no debt to anyone for past sins, it's all perfect. In their minds they are ready to stand before the holy God forever and they are ready to tell God to open the door so they can behold Him. They have arrived. They are ready. They don't need a moment even of preparation.

I wish we were all that sanctified. I don't know how many of us are, but I'm betting it's vanishingly few. The rest of us have to cooperate with the abundant grace of God to get to that point. And some of us need more time than we actually have.

 

[bbbbbbb]

IF, big IF, they die in friendship with Jesus, AKA they are saved already, then they are purged of their remaining bad inclinations and bad habits and any impure thing that remains in them.

Ask yourself from what you know of yourself today; are you ready to stand before God Almighty just as you are or do you need any refinements in your attitudes and habits? Do you have a plan to be perfected before you die? What if death comes early for you? Nothing imperfect enters heaven. How is that getting to perfection accomplished in you?

Jesus ain’t done with me yet. One way or another He will see to my purgation. It’s actually comforting to know that it may not be easy but it is the plan if I can just minimally persevere in friendship with Jesus.

Thank you. That sheds some light on something that had puzzled me.

I had an acquaintance, Fred, who was seriously Catholic. Unfortunately, the Catholic Church refused to grant him an annulment following the divorce from his first wife. He subsequently remarried, but was, apparently, persona non grata in the Catholic Church. It now appears to me that he probably did the most reasonable thing when he committed suicide. Strangely (at least to me) they held a wake for him in the narthex of his parish church. The upshot seems to be that there is no need for masses to be said for the repose of his soul.

 

[bbbbbbb]

from Valletta:

Your question would ask many to question if you understand the depths of the mercy of God.

That opens up an enormous can of worms. Our universalist friends would remind us that a truly merciful God would not only save all of humanity but also eliminate all trials and troubles on earth.

Now, I know that you do not believe this (if you do, then you need to reread the CCC). Thus, we both agree that the Catholic Church does not promote the view that God's mercy is infinite, but that God's mercy is limited, primarily by humanity and human willfulness.

 

[bbbbbbb]

The central issue here would be that some human cooperation is needed in sanctification and not everybody sees that. We are made holy WITH our consent and cooperation. Otherwise we remain carnal and quite unholy. Maybe saved, maybe, but not mature in Christ, and no renewal of our minds. But only the fully sanctified are ready to see God in the beatific vision. So one way or another if we are saved we still need to be sanctified. We can do that in the here and now or we can put it off but it will happen. At least it will happen for the saved. Those others do not need sanctification for where they are going.

So we look at people, and we cannot judge their souls but we can get a clue enough to guess at sanctification. Enough to guess at the pitiful levels of our own sanctification. And we know that big Mack truck with our name on it might be just over the next hill. How do we, who are not very sanctified, get that way before we get to crest that next hill. What, some gargantuan act of faith? If you one has never had a 'come to Jesus' moment that would be a very good idea. Quickly before getting to the top of that hill. But then comes the work of being a disciple, of acting on a new faith, of repairing the psychic and interpersonal and creational damage that is very evident in everybody and everything around us. So we start a life of reparation in the time we have left. We get to the top of the hill and there is the Mack truck. The reparation continues nonetheless. That's purgatory.

The reason some just cant grasp it is because they have it in their heads that Jesus already did it all without our need for consent or cooperation. Saved, sanctified, renewed in mind, with zero bad habits remaining, zero imperfect attitudes, no debt to anyone for past sins, it's all perfect. In their minds they are ready to stand before the holy God forever and they are ready to tell God to open the door so they can behold Him. They have arrived. They are ready. They don't need a moment even of preparation.

I wish we were all that sanctified. I don't know how many of us are, but I'm betting it's vanishingly few. The rest of us have to cooperate with the abundant grace of God to get to that point. And some of us need more time than we actually have.

The problem, I think, revolves around the definition of sanctification. The Catholic Church conflates salvation with sanctification. Thus, one must be completely and utterly sanctified to enter heaven. This, according to the Catholic Church, occasionally happens to rare individuals, but the extreme majority of Catholics cannot enter heaven unless they go through the process of purgation.

Protestantism views salvation as having been completed once and for all time by the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross of Calvary, His burial, and His resurrection. Those individuals who He has foreknown from eternity and whom he has predestined for salvation, enter through faith into the joy of salvation. Their sanctification follows their faith such that at the judgement seat of Christ all of their works will be judged accordingly and rewards meted out.

The difficulty for Catholics, as you have pointed out, is that, by conflating salvation with sanctification, you believe that Protestants think that once one becomes a believer they are sinless, because, after all salvation and sanctification are the same. I do not know of any Protestants, including Arminians of every form, who think that for a moment. Our salvation is not a result of our works, but is a result of His work for us. Our sanctification neither adds nor detracts from the fact the Jesus Christ's sacrifice for the sins of His people is complete and now He sits at the right hand of His Father interceding for His people.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I had an acquaintance, Fred, who was seriously Catholic. Unfortunately, the Catholic Church refused to grant him an annulment following the divorce from his first wife. He subsequently remarried, but was, apparently, persona non grata in the Catholic Church. It now appears to me that he probably did the most reasonable thing when he committed suicide. Strangely (at least to me) they held a wake for him in the narthex of his parish church. The upshot seems to be that there is no need for masses to be said for the repose of his soul.

A person who remarries after a civil divorce and whose first marriage is not annulled, is regarded as being in mortal sin which is serious, but they are not shunned even though they are denied the body & blood of Christ in communion. That can hit some people quite hard, especially if they could not manage to live a celibate life after their civil divorce and even more so if they feel sure that their first marriage ought to be annulled. I am sorry that your acquaintance, Fred, committed suicide, that is such a sad story.

 

[Valletta]

from Valletta:


That opens up an enormous can of worms. Our universalist friends would remind us that a truly merciful God would not only save all of humanity but also eliminate all trials and troubles on earth.

Now, I know that you do not believe this (if you do, then you need to reread the CCC). Thus, we both agree that the Catholic Church does not promote the view that God's mercy is infinite, but that God's mercy is limited, primarily by humanity and human willfulness.

God offers us all salvation, we have the gift of free will.