Purgatory And Prayers For The Dead.

[MarkRohfrietsch]

ADMIN HAT ON
This thread has had a cleaning, please do not flame one another and please remember that ALL Christian denominations are considered Christians here, saying otherwise is against the rules.
ADMIN HAT OFF

Thanks!

 

[tampasteve]

Some evangelicals insist that it is a history, you say a parable, I say it does not matter because it is the teaching of Christ that the dead do hear prayers.

I agree that it does not really matter if it is a parable or historical. That said, can you explain how it teaches that the dead do hear prayers? I read a conversation between dead people, and a request from a dead person to send another dead person to living people, but I don't read living people praying to dead people.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I agree that it does not really matter if it is a parable or historical. That said, can you explain how it teaches that the dead do hear prayers? I read a conversation between dead people, and a request from a dead person to send another dead person to living people, but I don't read living people praying to dead people.

Read it and think it though; the rich man is dead, he calls out to "father Abraham" who hears him, and father Abraham is dead. The rich man asks for the beggar's help, but that request is refused, then he asks for mercy on his five brothers, and that too is refused. reasons were given for each refusal. The whole conversation is a prayer from one dead person to another. And the Lord, Jesus Christ, deliberately chose this story as background for his teaching on doing good, judgement, and the state of the dead for both the good and the wicked.

There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and feasted sumptuously every day. And there was a certain beggar, named Lazarus, who lay at his gate, full of sores, Desiring to be filled with the crumbs that fell from the rich man's table. And no one did give him: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass that the beggar died and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom. And the rich man also died: and he was buried in hell. And lifting up his eyes when he was in torments, he saw Abraham afar off and Lazarus in his bosom: And he cried and said: Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water to cool my tongue: for I am tormented in this flame. And Abraham said to him: Son, remember that thou didst receive good things in thy lifetime, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted and thou art tormented. And besides all this, between us and you, there is fixed a great chaos: so that they who would pass from hence to you cannot, nor from thence come hither. And he said: Then, father, I beseech thee that thou wouldst send him to my father's house, for I have five brethren, That he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torments. And Abraham said to him: They have Moses and the prophets. Let them hear them. But he said: No, father Abraham: but if one went to them from the dead, they will do penance. And he said to him: If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they believe, if one rise again from the dead.​

(Luke 16:19-31 DRB)

 

[tampasteve]

Read it and think it though; the rich man is dead, he calls out to "father Abraham" who hears him, and father Abraham is dead. The rich man asks for the beggar's help, but that request is refused, then he asks for mercy on his five brothers, and that too is refused. reasons were given for each refusal. The whole conversation is a prayer from one dead person to another. And the Lord, Jesus Christ, deliberately chose this story as background for his teaching on doing good, judgement, and the state of the dead for both the good and the wicked.

I agree with all of that, but I am still not grasping how "conversation is a prayer from one dead person to another" teaches that the dead can hear prayers from the living.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I agree with all of that, but I am still not grasping how "conversation is a prayer from one dead person to another" teaches that the dead can hear prayers from the living.

It teaches that the dead can her prayers, in the specific case of the rich man and Lazarus it is prayer from a man in hell. A man or woman on earth ought to have a better chance of being heard, do you not agree?

 

[tampasteve]

It teaches that the dead can her prayers, in the specific case of the rich man and Lazarus it is prayer from a man in hell.

I would say that it teaches that the dead can converse, or pray to one another - or at most the ones in hell can pray to the people not in hell. It does not seem to teach that the dead can hear prayers of the living, it just isn't there.

A man or woman on earth ought to have a better chance of being heard, do you not agree?

I am not sure that I do. Being in a different realm and all, I am not sure that the dead can hear the living's prayers. God, being everywhere and all knowing can hear our prayers from anywhere and everywhere, but dead humans, not being so....I am not sure how they would hear our prayers directed to them from the living world. They are in a different place, after all.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I would say that it teaches that the dead can converse, or pray to one another - or at least the ones in hell can pray to the people not in hell. It does not seem to teach that the dead can hear prayers of the living, it just isn't there.

I am not sure that I do. Being in a different realm and all, I am not sure that the dead can hear the living's prayers. God, being everywhere and all knowing can hear our prayers from anywhere and everywhere, but dead humans, not being so....I am not sure how they would hear our prayers directed to them from the living world. They are in a different place, after all.

Let me put another case; on the mount of Transfiguration Moses and Elijah were conversing with Jesus, Jesus a man on earth and alive was speaking to Moses a man long dead and Elijah a man translated to heaven without dying. Here is a case of an earthly man conversing with the dead; and the three apostles heard the conversation and participated by offering to build three tabernacles for Moses, Elijah, and Jesus.

 

[tampasteve]

Let me put another case; on the mount of Transfiguration Moses and Elijah were conversing with Jesus, Jesus a man on earth and alive was speaking to Moses a man long dead and Elijah a man translated to heaven without dying. Here is a case of an earthly man conversing with the dead; and the three apostles heard the conversation and participated by offering to build three tabernacles for Moses, Elijah, and Jesus.

Yeah, but Jesus had the ability to descend to hades, raise the dead, and you know, is God. While Jesus is of course both God and Man, each 100%, I don't think that he can be used as a example of men praying to the dead. He is too unique.

The fact that Moses and Elijah were there and the disciples could see and hear the conversation is an interesting point, but Moses and Elijah were there, on Earth in the land of the living, assumedly by the power of God. The disciples were not praying to them while Moses and Elijah were in the spirit realm. So it still does not prove that the dead can hear us wherever they are from the living.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Yeah, but Jesus had the ability to descend to hades, raise the dead, and you know, is God. While Jesus is of course both God and Man, each 100%, I don't think that he can be used as a example of men praying to the dead. He is too unique.

The fact that Moses and Elijah were there and the disciples could see and hear the conversation is an interesting point, but Moses and Elijah were there, on Earth in the land of the living, assumedly by the power of God. The disciples were not praying to them while Moses and Elijah were in the spirit realm. So it still does not prove that the dead can hear us wherever they are from the living.

I've given two examples, and one more in the case of Onesiphorus, you object to each with different objections, each objection is contrived to nullify what is in the text of sacred scripture so, why shouldn't I conclude that the doctrine that you embrace will always override what the holy scriptures say and that in truth it is protestants who use their "magisterium" to nullify holy scripture? Besides this, there is the passage in second Maccabees chapter twelve that directly teaches the goodness of prayers for the dead and which your tradition excludes from the canon thus excluding one more passage of sacred scripture from teaching on this topic, is this not another proof that Protestantism is more interested in its doctrine than it is in what the holy scriptures say and teach?

 

[tampasteve]

I've given two examples, and one more in the case of Onesiphorus, you object to each with different objections, each objection is contrived to nullify what is in the text of sacred scripture so,

I am sorry, but I feel that I have presented why I object based on what is written and the way it reads. I do not find your responses to the objections I presented as satisfactory in resolving said objections.

Conversely, if it makes things any better, I don't see anything in scripture that teaches us not to pray to the dead. I just don't see the examples given as proof that there is efficacy to doing so.

why shouldn't I conclude that the doctrine that you embrace will always override what the holy scriptures say and that in truth it is protestants who use their "magisterium" to nullify holy scripture?

You should not take that conclusion because I actually am open to the idea of praying to the dead, but it is a practice that needs to be evidenced in some way, and the evidence presented thus far leaves me wanting.

I am trying to have this conversation in good faith, but if you are going to take the point of view that "the doctrine that you embrace will always override what the holy scriptures say" then there really is no reason for us to converse in the future, just let me know so I do not waste either of our time going forward. I feel that I am presenting objections that are fair and still based in the scriptures presented.

Besides this, there is the passage in second Maccabees chapter twelve that directly teaches the goodness of prayers for the dead and which your tradition excludes from the canon thus excluding one more passage of sacred scripture from teaching on this topic, is this not another proof that Protestantism is more interested in its doctrine than it is in what the holy scriptures say and teach?

I am familiar with Second Maccabees 12, I always have heard that used to argue in favor of praying for the dead, not to the dead. The passage makes a strong argument in favor of praying for the dead. Personally I consider the Maccabees books to be scripture, in general I find the argument in favor of some of the larger Catholic cannon to be strong.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Besides this, there is the passage in second Maccabees chapter twelve that directly teaches the goodness of prayers for the dead and which your tradition excludes from the canon thus excluding one more passage of sacred scripture from teaching on this topic, is this not another proof that Protestantism is more interested in its doctrine than it is in what the holy scriptures say and teach?

You are painting with a bit too wide a brush here. While some see only their own doctrines when they read Scripture, not all are so bound by their traditions. AND some traditions, particularly the Anglican and Lutheran ones, are a lot more like Catholics and the Orthodox in many things, overall tending not even to want to be called Protestant. Don't alienate people like these, who, like even C.S. Lewis, agreed with you (and me). They are not all the same. Treating them as the same may not work. Know who you are in discussion with.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

You are painting with a bit too wide a brush here. While some see only their own doctrines when they read Scripture, not all are so bound by their traditions. AND some traditions, particularly the Anglican and Lutheran ones, are a lot more like Catholics and the Orthodox in many things, overall tending not even to want to be called Protestant. Don't alienate people like these, who, like even C.S. Lewis, agreed with you (and me). They are not all the same. Treating them as the same may not work. Know who you are in discussion with.

Putting a case in a discussion is not likely to alienate an honest interlocutor. Besides "protestant" is such a broad concept that it has almost lost its meaning; not too many protestants want to be called protestant nowadays, they prefer other words, like evangelical, reformed, Anglican, and so forth.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Putting a case in a discussion is not likely to alienate an honest interlocutor. Besides "protestant" is such a broad concept that it has almost lost its meaning; not too many protestants want to be called protestant nowadays, they prefer other words, like evangelical, reformed, Anglican, and so forth.

TampaSteve is way different from, for example, hislegacy. Their approaches to Scripture are quite different, one being open to the full canon and the other not so much. We don’t get down on one for the expected objections of the other. They are quite different folks.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

TampaSteve is way different from, for example, hislegacy. Their approaches to Scripture are quite different, one being open to the full canon and the other not so much. We don’t get down on one for the expected objections of the other. They are quite different folks.

Quite true, I appreciate the candour of TampaSteve, my conversation with TampaSteve has been a pleasure for me.

 

[RileyG]

I agree with all of that, but I am still not grasping how "conversation is a prayer from one dead person to another" teaches that the dead can hear prayers from the living.

Hmmm....I wouldn't say we "pray" to the dead other than ask for their intercession. If they "hear" anything in the afterlife, then it's because God allows it.

I'm not dead yet so I do not know how the afterlife works completely.

 

[RileyG]

Yeah, but Jesus had the ability to descend to hades, raise the dead, and you know, is God. While Jesus is of course both God and Man, each 100%, I don't think that he can be used as a example of men praying to the dead. He is too unique.

The fact that Moses and Elijah were there and the disciples could see and hear the conversation is an interesting point, but Moses and Elijah were there, on Earth in the land of the living, assumedly by the power of God. The disciples were not praying to them while Moses and Elijah were in the spirit realm. So it still does not prove that the dead can hear us wherever they are from the living.

Depends how define "dead." Dead on earth, yes, but not dead spiritually. Those in heaven (or purgatory if one accepts it) are very much alive in Christ, and as Christians we can make intercession and supplications for them IMHO.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Hmmm....I wouldn't say we "pray" to the dead other than ask for their intercession. If they "hear" anything in the afterlife, then it's because God allows it.

I'm not dead yet so I do not know how the afterlife works completely.

"Pray to" and "ask" have the same meaning. This is not always understood by our interlocutors because some appear to believe that "pray" has a special lexical meaning quite different from "ask".

 

[tampasteve]

Quite true, I appreciate the candour of TampaSteve, my conversation with TampaSteve has been a pleasure for me.

Thank you, I appreciate that.

Hmmm....I wouldn't say we "pray" to the dead other than ask for their intercession. If they "hear" anything in the afterlife, then it's because God allows it.

I'm not dead yet so I do not know how the afterlife works completely.

Pray, ask, talk, it's all really the same - speaking with other believers or to our deity. The hearing part is what I have trouble believing. I don't see scripture that points that they can hear us. How would that work? They are in a separate space, they don't have the ability to be omniscient and listen to everyone's thoughts or prayers - to converse or commune with us as God can.

I often hear or read people say that it is "like asking any other believer to pray for you". Sure, but if I ask a Earthly believer to pray for me I have to physically contact them in some way. I can't just be in my room and say "Mom, can you pray for my test results today?", if she is not there or connected to me somehow via telephone or other medium then she has no way of hearing me, no way of knowing that I am talking to her. How would the believers that have left this realm actually know I am trying to speak to them right now? How would saints recieve multiple "prayers at one time?"

I am open to the possibility that God could send someone to us that we could see or speak to, as exampled by Moses and Elijah at the transfiguration. But I don't see a compelling argument to be made that I can "pray" to St. Mark and he will be able to single out my prayers. I just don't see scripture that supports that practice.

Depends how define "dead." Dead on earth, yes, but not dead spiritually. Those in heaven (or purgatory if one accepts it) are very much alive in Christ, and as Christians we can make intercession and supplications for them IMHO.

I don't have an issue praying for the dead, or otherwise said the "alive in Christ". But praying for someone is in effect praying to God (assuming we are leaving praying to saints for the souls of others out of the conversation in this aspect) to do something for someone that is dead to the Earth but alive in Christ, or even alive in hades/hell. So making intercession or supplications for someone is not, IMO, the same as praying/speaking to the dead.

"Pray to" and "ask" have the same meaning. This is not always understood by our interlocutors because some appear to believe that "pray" has a special lexical meaning quite different from "ask".

100% agree.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Pray, ask, talk, it's all really the same - speaking with other believers or to our deity. The hearing part is what I have trouble believing. I don't see scripture that points that they can hear us. How would that work? They are in a separate space, they don't have the ability to be omniscient and listen to everyone's thoughts or prayers - to converse or commune with us as God can.

Not just a separate space but an entirely different dimension from us, if one can speak of eternity as a dimension. In any case speaking and hearing are, here on earth, functions of vibrations in the atmosphere and one presumes that angels, spirits of every kind, and the dear departed do not have an earthly environment in which to hear vibrations in the air. So, the saints "hear" by some other means, perhaps the same or similar means through which God "hears" our prayers. And since we do not live in eternity and have not experienced it ourselves we are not in a good position to comment on what is or is not possible there.

In the case of Samuel and Saul with the witch of Endor somehow or other Samuel "heard" the call to come and converse with Saul. He did come, shocked the living daylights out of the witch (who was no doubt a charlatan much like mediums today are) and let Saul know his fate was sealed and he would soon be dead. This is one example of the dead "hearing". Another is at the Transfiguration of our Lord, where Moses "heard" Jesus, and the three apostles "heard" Moses, how it works I do not know, but work it does.

Another example is the souls of the dead under the altar in heaven who "hear" of the state of the world and its injustice so that they cry out to the Lord, "how long" until they are avenged.

Three examples of this kind of "hearing" ought to be enough, even if we do not know how it works.

 

[tampasteve]

Not just a separate space but an entirely different dimension from us, if one can speak of eternity as a dimension. In any case speaking and hearing are, here on earth, functions of vibrations in the atmosphere and one presumes that angels, spirits of every kind, and the dear departed do not have an earthly environment in which to hear vibrations in the air. So, the saints "hear" by some other means, perhaps the same or similar means through which God "hears" our prayers. And since we do not live in eternity and have not experienced it ourselves we are not in a good position to comment on what is or is not possible there.

In the case of Samuel and Saul with the witch of Endor somehow or other Samuel "heard" the call to come and converse with Saul. He did come, shocked the living daylights out of the witch (who was no doubt a charlatan much like mediums today are) and let Saul know his fate was sealed and he would soon be dead. This is one example of the dead "hearing". Another is at the Transfiguration of our Lord, where Moses "heard" Jesus, and the three apostles "heard" Moses, how it works I do not know, but work it does.

Another example is the souls of the dead under the altar in heaven who "hear" of the state of the world and its injustice so that they cry out to the Lord, "how long" until they are avenged.

Three examples of this kind of "hearing" ought to be enough, even if we do not know how it works.

Fantastically written and you have given me much to think about; thank you.