Purgatory And Prayers For The Dead.

[chevyontheriver]

The problem, I think, revolves around the definition of sanctification. The Catholic Church conflates salvation with sanctification.

Nope. Salvation and sanctification are not in lockstep. One can be saved but not (yet) sanctified. And yet one has to be sanctified to enter heaven. Sanctification has to happen. Sooner or later.

Thus, one must be completely and utterly sanctified to enter heaven. This, according to the Catholic Church, occasionally happens to rare individuals, but the extreme majority of Catholics cannot enter heaven unless they go through the process of purgation.

Yup. One must be fit to enter heaven. Few are. It is the de-linkage of sanctification and salvation where sanctification begins after coming to faith and continues until complete.

Protestantism views salvation as having been completed once and for all time by the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross of Calvary, His burial, and His resurrection. Those individuals who He has foreknown from eternity and whom he has predestined for salvation, enter through faith into the joy of salvation. Their sanctification follows their faith such that at the judgement seat of Christ all of their works will be judged accordingly and rewards meted out.

That sounds like one view amid the varieties of Protestantism.

The difficulty for Catholics, as you have pointed out, is that, by conflating salvation with sanctification, you believe that Protestants think that once one becomes a believer they are sinless, because, after all salvation and sanctification are the same. I do not know of any Protestants, including Arminians of every form, who think that for a moment.

I have heard from exactly this sort of person.

Our salvation is not a result of our works, but is a result of His work for us.

It's about cooperating with and consenting to the grace we are given. It's not all up to us. Faith and Justification is not a work. Sanctification may seem like work but it is a cooperation with Jesus the heavy lifter.

Our sanctification neither adds nor detracts from the fact the Jesus Christ's sacrifice for the sins of His people is complete and now He sits at the right hand of His Father interceding for His people.

But of course.

 

[chevyontheriver]

I had an acquaintance, Fred, who was seriously Catholic. Unfortunately, the Catholic Church refused to grant him an annulment following the divorce from his first wife.

Annulments are only granted if there is a basis for them. There has to be a found flaw at the time of the marriage or the marriage tribunal cannot declare that the marriage was null and void. What happens after the wedding is not relevamt to an annulment except maybe as evidence of a pre-existing issue. Apparently there wasn't enough evidence or the process was never completed. I can't know. I don't know if you can even know. But not all marriages are null and void, even the failed ones. They may be over but they were valid.

He subsequently remarried, but was, apparently, persona non grata in the Catholic Church.

He would be considered to be an adulterer, continuing actively in adultery. So I suppose so. He should have stayed single after divorce and then he would have had zero problem continuing as a Catholic.

It now appears to me that he probably did the most reasonable thing when he committed suicide.

Nope. Not reasonable.

Strangely (at least to me) they held a wake for him in the narthex of his parish church.

It would have been a scandal to have had his funeral in the church proper considering the continued adultery. The narthex allowed for a compromise.

The upshot seems to be that there is no need for masses to be said for the repose of his soul.

Probably way more need to do so. This poor guy married and then divorced, sought an annulment and didn't get it for some reason or another, remarried anyway, and then for whatever reason killed himself. Quite the mess. I suspect the parishioners at his parish prayed a good deal for him. And you could too.

 

[bbbbbbb]

A person who remarries after a civil divorce and whose first marriage is not annulled, is regarded as being in mortal sin which is serious, but they are not shunned even though they are denied the body & blood of Christ in communion. That can hit some people quite hard, especially if they could not manage to live a celibate life after their civil divorce and even more so if they feel sure that their first marriage ought to be annulled. I am sorry that tour acquaintance, Fred, committed suicide, that is such a sad story.

It was a very sad situation. If only Fred had been a nominal Catholic like the President of Ireland, Michael Higgins, who remains legally married to his wife, although openly living with his mistress, then Fred would be among us today.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Nope. Salvation and sanctification are not in lockstep. One can be saved but not (yet) sanctified. And yet one has to be sanctified to enter heaven. Sanctification has to happen. Sooner or later.

Yup. One must be fit to enter heaven. Few are. It is the de-linkage of sanctification and salvation where sanctification begins after coming to faith and continues until complete.

That sounds like one view amid the varieties of Protestantism.

I have heard from exactly this sort of person.

It's about cooperating with and consenting to the grace we are given. It's not all up to us. Faith and Justification is not a work. Sanctification may seem like work but it is a cooperation with Jesus the heavy lifter.

But of course.

Because the Catholic Church insists on sanctification in order to accomplish salvation, they are viewed, as you have yourself said, as being so closely intertwined that they cannot be separated. One of the difficulties, of course, is how much sanctification is actually required and how one can possibly achieve it in this life. Thus, Purgatory is a convenient answer. The typical Catholic person simply doesn't achieve a sufficient level of sanctification in this life so that he or she could be saved. Thus, after death when they are no longer able to commit human sins, they have the opportunity to get purged of the sins that remain from their unsanctified life. The traditional view, as you know, has been that Purgatory was a place of punishment for sin where one was forced to pay for their sins (sort of like a debtor's prison). After the last penny was paid off then they were released and permitted to enter heaven. That view is no longer popular and the view, as you have shown, is that purgation is really not such a nasty thing at all. One simply slips off the remaining sins, takes a nice warm bath, changes clothes and saunters into heaven.

The difficulty with this view is that it demeans the vicarious death of Jesus Christ. It simply holds that Jesus hardly died for the expiation of the sins of His people, but only some of them. He may have done some "heavy lifting" as you say, but there remains plenty of other lifting in order for his people to merit salvation.

Thus, we see the invention of the Treasury of Merit (Treasury of merit - Wikipedia), which keys are said to be held solely by a certain chap in Rome. It is widely thought that these merits are limitless, but in actual practice they only get doled out to those who that chap and his advisers determine to deserve them. They are not for your garden variety of sinner.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Because the Catholic Church insists on sanctification in order to accomplish salvation, they are viewed, as you have yourself said, as being so closely intertwined that they cannot be separated.

That is one very misconstrued sentence. First, I never said that salvation and sanctification cannot be separated. Nor that they are closely intertwined. They are loosely connected/ I have tried to make it clear, though you may have missed it, that to enter heaven one must be both saved AND sanctified, as two different things. Not saved OR sanctified, not merely saved, not sanctified because that is salvation, but both distinct things. For those who have not completed sanctification in their lives there is a way to nonetheless be sanctified. Nobody is left out in the cold.

One of the difficulties, of course, is how much sanctification is actually required and how one can possibly achieve it in this life. Thus, Purgatory is a convenient answer. The typical Catholic person simply doesn't achieve a sufficient level of sanctification in this life so that he or she could be saved.

You got it wrong again. One can be saved yet incompletely sanctified at the close of his or her life. Still saved. Some sanctification still needed. Purgatory is the answer for those not otherwise fully sanctified but some do get sanctified in this life. Nobody in my family probably, but they are out there.

Thus, after death when they are no longer able to commit human sins, they have the opportunity to get purged of the sins that remain from their unsanctified life.

Trivial sins, sure. Serious sins send a person to hell where there is no remediation possible.

The traditional view, as you know, has been that Purgatory was a place of punishment for sin where one was forced to pay for their sins (sort of like a debtor's prison). After the last penny was paid off then they were released and permitted to enter heaven. That view is no longer popular and the view, as you have shown, is that purgation is really not such a nasty thing at all. One simply slips off the remaining sins, takes a nice warm bath, changes clothes and saunters into heaven.

I'm not so sure that is my view. It's your view. Mine is that purgatory ain't gonna be fun. But then life here isn't for sissies either. I expect it will have the consolation of knowing I will see Jesus but otherwise it's gonna hurt as my bad habits and snarky attitudes are ripped from my soul one by one.

The difficulty with this view is that it demeans the vicarious death of Jesus Christ. It simply holds that Jesus hardly died for the expiation of the sins of His people, but only some of them. He may have done some "heavy lifting" as you say, but there remains plenty of other lifting in order for his people to merit salvation.

No! Neither salvation nor sanctification would be possible without the overwhelming and unearned merits of Jesus. You know not of which you speak.

Thus, we see the invention of the Treasury of Merit (Treasury of merit - Wikipedia), which keys are said to be held solely by a certain chap in Rome. It is widely thought that these merits are limitless, but in actual practice they only get doled out to those who that chap and his advisers determine to deserve them. They are not for your garden variety of sinner.

But they are for garden variety sinners. No money needed as they are impossible to even buy. I have attained many indulgences and will attain many more, offering them for relatives and people in need. I am no fan of the chap in Rome but that hasn't stopped me nor allowed him to stop me. You know not of which you speak.

 

[chevyontheriver]

It was a very sad situation.

It was. Maybe grace intruded somewhere and somehow.

If only Fred had been a nominal Catholic like the President of Ireland, Michael Higgins, who remains legally married to his wife, although openly living with his mistress, then Fred would be among us today.

Do you think it is better to be alive today living in fully chosen mortal sin and on a deliberate path to hell? I don't know Fred's eternal destination. I don't know Michael Higgins destination either. But I can't help but thinking the latter looks worse than the former even as bad as that looked. One should perhaps work out his salvation with some fear and trembling. Or not. It's up to him.

 

[BobRyan]

The Catholic Church teaches that, besides a place of eternal torments for the wicked and of everlasting rest for the righteous, there exists in the next life a middle state of temporary punishment, allotted for those who have died in venial sin, or who have not satisfied the justice of God for sins already forgiven. She also teaches us that, although the souls consigned to this intermediate state, commonly called purgatory, cannot help themselves, they may be aided by the suffrages of the faithful on earth. The existence of purgatory naturally implies the correlative dogma—the utility of praying for the dead—for the souls consigned to this middle state

I like your title and the fact that you quote not one Bible text teaching such a thing - but rather you start out saying it is the teaching of the Catholic Church. I think that places this in the correct light.

Your title "prayers for the dead" - is the right way to state it.

The Catechism's title - "958 Communion with the dead. "

In the Catholic model there is not only a place the Bible never speaks of such as purgatory and suffering that the Bible never speaks of in Purgatory, but there is "communion with the dead" -- where there are prayers FOR the dead as you state in your OP , but also requests made OF the dead, and service promised TO the dead in the example prayers the Catholic Church provides for all to read.

The doctrine of an intermediate state is thus succinctly asserted by the Council of Trent: “There is a Purgatory, and souls there detained, are helped by the prayers of the faithful, and especially by the acceptable Sacrifice of the Altar.”

hmm 1500 years after Christ - it is "succinctly asserted" by the Catholic Church?
How "instructive" for the unbiased objective reader.

Is it not strange that this cherished doctrine should also be called in question

I agree it is not strange at all.

it is clearly taught in the Old Testament;

Not according to the OT church whose prophets wrote the Old Testament.
Not according to Jerome in his Latin Vulgate who admitted that none of that was included in the Hebrew Bible at all.
Not in anything you actually quote from the OT in your OP. You provide not one scripture stating those beliefs that you listed.

that it is, at least, insinuated in the New Testament;

The idea that extreme inference can insert something not in scripture - is never doubted. To turn around and blame that on the Bible writers whenever someone engages in extreme inference - is hard to go along with.

 

[BobRyan]

All of the Apostolic Churches (Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Assyrian Church of the East) pray for the dead. Even some Anglican, Lutherans, and Methodist offers prayers for the dead. Ancient Jews and Jews today have always prayed for the dead. Jesus never spoke against it.

Do you have quotes for Methodists praying "for the dead" to eventually get into heaven ... or praying that the dead in heaven have a nice time?

***It must be noted Purgatory is ONLY RC doctrine. No other Churches accept it.

yep

 

[BobRyan]

Plenty of books of the OT are not taught from. For example The Song of Songs, Esther, many of Psalms...

2 Tim 3:16 "ALL scripture is given by inspiration from God AND Is profitable for doctrine, for correction for instruction in righteousness"

. Enoch is quoted, The Assumption of Moses is alluded to

Yes Jude does do that - but does not say the entire book is inspired - just as Paul in Acts 17 quotes some pagan poets as he does in Titus 1. It it does not bless the entire extra-biblical document.

in the same way as you propose the 2 Macc is and still, they are not in the canon.

1. 2 Macc makes no statement at all about Purgatory. In fact it explicitly says no benefit at all is realized by the dead from such prayers - until the day of resurrection.
2. Jerome freely admits that 2 Macc does not belong in the OT - in his Vulgate he adds this note for each book that does not belong in the OT

 

[BobRyan]

Absolutely false. Jews disagreed as to what books compromised Holy Scripture during the time that Jesus was on earth.

Josephus makes the point in the first century that ALL the OT books were canonized and held sacred in the Temple of the Jews for over 400 years before the first century - without any changes at all added... no new books in 400 years.

NT Apostles quoted from the Hebrew Bible because as Josephus points out - the first century view was that they had a complete canon of scripture unchanged for over 400 years.

In Luke 24 Jesus speaks of that complete canon and Luke tells us it was "ALL the Scriptures".
27 Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures.

The Protestant OT has exactly the same content as the actual OT of the Jews - the Hebrew Bible - that Josephus said was fully canonized for over 400 years prior to the first century.

 

[BobRyan]

I pray for the souls in purgatory, I think nearly all Catholics do.

Luther points to a key flaw - "IF the Pope actually had the ability" to accelerate the purging process and free a soul from Purgatory - why in the world has he not freed them all. As you point out - even you "pray for all the souls in purgatory" - so why not free them all??

 

[RileyG]

Do you have quotes for Methodists praying "for the dead" to eventually get into heaven ... or praying that the dead in heaven have a nice time?

yep

John Wesley prayed for the dead. According to wikipedia, there are prayers for the dead in the Methodist Church, but they are not used "for a person to get into heaven" or "have a nice time."

Blessings

 

[Valletta]

Josephus makes the point in the first century that ALL the OT books were canonized and held sacred in the Temple of the Jews for over 400 years before the first century - without any changes at all added... no new books in 400 years.

NT Apostles quoted from the Hebrew Bible because as Josephus points out - the first century view was that they had a complete canon of scripture unchanged for over 400 years.

In Luke 24 Jesus speaks of that complete canon and Luke tells us it was "ALL the Scriptures".
27 Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures.

The Protestant OT has exactly the same content as the actual OT of the Jews - the Hebrew Bible - that Josephus said was fully canonized for over 400 years prior to the first century.

Picking up on that error by Josephus is folly. Even the Sadducees and Pharisees recognized different books for Holy Scripture. The Sadducees were essentially wiped out around the destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D., no need to write them out of existence. The Catholic Church chose the OT books that the Apostles taught from, why follow the eventual path of the majority of Jews who also denied the Gospels?

 

[Valletta]

Because the Catholic Church insists on sanctification in order to accomplish salvation, they are viewed, as you have yourself said, as being so closely intertwined that they cannot be separated. One of the difficulties, of course, is how much sanctification is actually required and how one can possibly achieve it in this life. Thus, Purgatory is a convenient answer. The typical Catholic person simply doesn't achieve a sufficient level of sanctification in this life so that he or she could be saved. Thus, after death when they are no longer able to commit human sins, they have the opportunity to get purged of the sins that remain from their unsanctified life. The traditional view, as you know, has been that Purgatory was a place of punishment for sin where one was forced to pay for their sins (sort of like a debtor's prison). After the last penny was paid off then they were released and permitted to enter heaven. That view is no longer popular and the view, as you have shown, is that purgation is really not such a nasty thing at all. One simply slips off the remaining sins, takes a nice warm bath, changes clothes and saunters into heaven.

The difficulty with this view is that it demeans the vicarious death of Jesus Christ. It simply holds that Jesus hardly died for the expiation of the sins of His people, but only some of them. He may have done some "heavy lifting" as you say, but there remains plenty of other lifting in order for his people to merit salvation.

Thus, we see the invention of the Treasury of Merit (Treasury of merit - Wikipedia), which keys are said to be held solely by a certain chap in Rome. It is widely thought that these merits are limitless, but in actual practice they only get doled out to those who that chap and his advisers determine to deserve them. They are not for your garden variety of sinner.

You're misrepresenting how the teaching of purgatory came into being. Have you yet found any documentation yet for your Vietnam story about Catholics?

There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church, but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”​

― Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen

 

[Valletta]

I like your title and the fact that you quote not one Bible text teaching such a thing - but rather you start out saying it is the teaching of the Catholic Church. I think that places this in the correct light.

Yes, Christ is the head of the Catholic Church, His teachings were passed down through the Apostles. I suppose most do not think much about the fact that the Bible-only theory did not take off until over a thousand years later.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Luther points to a key flaw - "IF the Pope actually had the ability" to accelerate the purging process and free a soul from Purgatory - why in the world has he not freed them all. As you point out - even you "pray for all the souls in purgatory" - so why not free them all??

It is God who sets the souls in purgatory free no pope and no one else can.

 

[bbbbbbb]

It is God who sets the souls in purgatory free no pope and no one else can.

Then, the Treasury of Merits is utterly inconsequential, is it not?

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Then, the Treasury of Merits is utterly inconsequential, is it not?

No. No indeed. It is God who created that treasure and filled it with the infinite worth of the Son of God's sacrifice. And if God blesses his saints with the gift of participating in the evangelisation of the world, then who are we to deny it?

 

[Valletta]

Then, the Treasury of Merits is utterly inconsequential, is it not?

1476 We also call these spiritual goods of the communion of saints the Church's treasury, which is "not the sum total of the material goods which have accumulated during the course of the centuries. On the contrary the 'treasury of the Church' is the infinite value, which can never be exhausted, which Christ's merits have before God. They were offered so that the whole of mankind could be set free from sin and attain communion with the Father. In Christ, the Redeemer himself, the satisfactions and merits of his Redemption exist and find their effficacy."87

1477 "This treasury includes as well the prayers and good works of the Blessed Virgin Mary. They are truly immense, unfathomable, and even pristine in their value before God. In the treasury, too, are the prayers and good works of all the saints, all those who have followed in the footsteps of Christ the Lord and by his grace have made their lives holy and carried out the mission the Father entrusted to them. In this way they attained their own salvation and at the same time cooperated in saving their brothers in the unity of the Mystical Body."88

Catechism of the Catholic Church - IntraText

 

[bbbbbbb]

No. No indeed. It is God who created that treasure and filled it with the infinite worth of the Son of God's sacrifice. And if God blesses his saints with the gift of participating in the evangelisation of the world, then who are we to deny it?

Of course, there are some very curious assumptions here, as follows:

1. The Treasury of Merit exists. This concept is unique to the Roman Catholic Church and, as such, can be traced not much further back than the Middle Ages.
2. God created it. This might be true if one conflates the RCC with God.
3. God uses this alleged Treasury for evangelisation of the world. Give the fact that the alleged treasury is of infinite value so that the whole of mankind could be set free from sin, either God is unwilling or unable to use this treasury to that end, or the RCC, standing in for God is very parsimonious in its usage, dispensing these merits only to those whom it determined deserve them.

[T]he 'treasury of the Church' is the infinite value, which can never be exhausted, which Christ's merits have before God. They were offered so that the whole of mankind could be set free from sin and attain communion with the Father. In Christ, the Redeemer himself, the satisfactions and merits of his Redemption exist and find their efficacy. This treasury includes as well the prayers and good works of the Blessed Virgin Mary. They are truly immense, unfathomable, and even pristine in their value before God. In the treasury, too, are the prayers and good works of all the saints, all those who have followed in the footsteps of Christ the Lord and by his grace have made their lives holy and carried out the mission the Father entrusted to them. In this way they attained their own salvation and at the same time cooperated in saving their brothers in the unity of the Mystical Body.