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Purgatory And Prayers For The Dead.

RileyG

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Thank you, I appreciate that. :)

Pray, ask, talk, it's all really the same - speaking with other believers or to our deity. The hearing part is what I have trouble believing. I don't see scripture that points that they can hear us. How would that work? They are in a separate space, they don't have the ability to be omniscient and listen to everyone's thoughts or prayers - to converse or commune with us as God can.

I often hear or read people say that it is "like asking any other believer to pray for you". Sure, but if I ask a Earthly believer to pray for me I have to physically contact them in some way. I can't just be in my room and say "Mom, can you pray for my test results today?", if she is not there or connected to me somehow via telephone or other medium then she has no way of hearing me, no way of knowing that I am talking to her. How would the believers that have left this realm actually know I am trying to speak to them right now? How would saints recieve multiple "prayers at one time?"

I am open to the possibility that God could send someone to us that we could see or speak to, as exampled by Moses and Elijah at the transfiguration. But I don't see a compelling argument to be made that I can "pray" to St. Mark and he will be able to single out my prayers. I just don't see scripture that supports that practice.

I don't have an issue praying for the dead, or otherwise said the "alive in Christ". But praying for someone is in effect praying to God (assuming we are leaving praying to saints for the souls of others out of the conversation in this aspect) to do something for someone that is dead to the Earth but alive in Christ, or even alive in hades/hell. So making intercession or supplications for someone is not, IMO, the same as praying/speaking to the dead.

100% agree.
I'm not sure if this is the answer you are looking for but there is a mention of the prayer of the saints in heaven (Revelation 8:3-4). How exactly that works in heaven, I do not know.

I think those in heaven are aware of what is happening on earth. Or at least have some knowledge of it. Beyond that, I really don't know.

The Gospel also mentions Rachel weeping for her children when Herod killed the great innocents, even though she was long dead (Matthew 2:13-18). The martyrs in heaven also cry out for justice (Revelation 6:9-11).

Also, you're right, we should never "speak" to the dead.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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I think those in heaven are aware of what is happening on earth. Or at least have some knowledge of it. Beyond that, I really don't know.
And therefore we also having so great a cloud of witnesses over our head, laying aside every weight and sin which surrounds us, let us run by patience to the fight proposed to us: Looking on Jesus, the author and finisher of faith, who, having joy set before him, endured the cross, despising the shame, and now sitteth on the right hand of the throne of God.
(Hebrews 12:1-2 DRB)

There is, in heaven, a great cloud (crowd) of witnesses watching and listening to earthly Christians as they profess their faith and live it by good works.
 
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The Liturgist

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I wonder why comments are turned off for the video on YouTube? Perhaps they wanted to silence all the Latin speakers who were correcting their 'translation'.

That would not surprise me. A great deal of attacks on the Roman church are patently dishonest (and also the same people if they are aware the Orthodox exist, which they usually aren’ t, will target us).
 
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chevyontheriver

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Putting a case in a discussion is not likely to alienate an honest interlocutor. Besides "protestant" is such a broad concept that it has almost lost its meaning; not too many protestants want to be called protestant nowadays, they prefer other words, like evangelical, reformed, Anglican, and so forth.
The term 'Protestant' never applied perfectly to the whole lot of the children of the Reformation. So although I use it expansively, too expansively mostly, we should call evangelicals 'evangelical' and Anglicans 'Anglican' and Lutherans 'Lutheran' and not lump them all together. Besides, if we ever do make progress in ending our divisions it will be group by group, maybe AngloCatholics or conservative Lutherans or whatever, and not some conglomerate of 'Protestants'. Yeah, it's easier to lump them all together, but they don't really all fit the name.
 
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The Liturgist

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The term 'Protestant' never applied perfectly to the whole lot of the children of the Reformation. So although I use it expansively, too expansively mostly, we should call evangelicals 'evangelical' and Anglicans 'Anglican' and Lutherans 'Lutheran' and not lump them all together. Besides, if we ever do make progress in ending our divisions it will be group by group, maybe AngloCatholics or conservative Lutherans or whatever, and not some conglomerate of 'Protestants'. Yeah, it's easier to lump them all together, but they don't really all fit the name.

The majority of the churches which differ dramatically from Traditional Christianity whether Roman Catholic or Anglican or Lutheran or traditional Methodist or Reformed Catholic or Eastern Orthodox or Oriental Orthodox or the Assyrian Church of the East or any other liturgical church, fall into a few specific categories, namely Fundamentalists, Non-Denominational Evangelicals, Aliturgical Evangelicals, Restorationists and Pentecostal/Charismatic churches.
 
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RileyG

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The majority of the churches which differ dramatically from Traditional Christianity whether Roman Catholic or Anglican or Lutheran or traditional Methodist or Reformed Catholic or Eastern Orthodox or Oriental Orthodox or the Assyrian Church of the East or any other liturgical church, fall into a few specific categories, namely Fundamentalists, Non-Denominational Evangelicals, Aliturgical Evangelicals, Restorationists and Pentecostal/Charismatic churches.
Yes. There are many "non-denominational" Christians who do not identify as Protestant because it's a cluster of (several thousand) denominations.

***I do have issues with the term "non-denominational" because it's all recycled theology****
 
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RileyG

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That would not surprise me. A great deal of attacks on the Roman church are patently dishonest (and also the same people if they are aware the Orthodox exist, which they usually aren’ t, will target us).
Most Protestants who attack the Catholic Church have no clue the Orthodox Church exists.
 
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bbbbbbb

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Most Protestants who attack the Catholic Church have no clue the Orthodox Church exists.
When I grew up in a solidly Catholic city there were two groups of people - Catholics and Protestants. There were Methodist Protestants, Lutheran Protestants, Presbyterian Protestants, etc., as well as Jewish Protestants and Greek Orthodox Protestants. If you were not Roman Catholic then you were Protestant. Life was blessedly simple then.
 
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The Liturgist

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When I grew up in a solidly Catholic city there were two groups of people - Catholics and Protestants. There were Methodist Protestants, Lutheran Protestants, Presbyterian Protestants, etc., as well as Jewish Protestants and Greek Orthodox Protestants. If you were not Roman Catholic then you were Protestant. Life was blessedly simple then.

This kind of factionalism is inherently undesirable; I would also note that some Greek Orthodox historically aspired to what was perceived as the respectability of Protestantism and installed pews, organs and so on, some of which were used to positive effect (and some Greek Orthodox churches, for example, those in the Ionian Islands, historically also had organs).

These concessions were however harmful in other respects, for example the calendar reforms in 1920-21, partial concessions were made to the West at the considerable expense of Orthodox tradition, for example, the Revised Julian Calendar, by causing the fixed feasts to be aligned with the Gregorian calendar which causes a few of them, such ss Christmas, Theophany, Candlemas, the Annunciation, the Feast of the Holy Apostles Peter and Paul, the Transfiguration, the Dormition, the Holy Cross, and St. Andrew the First Called, to align with the dates on which Western Christians celebrated them, it also resulted in adverse effects, including a massive increase in the number of Sundays that might occur between Theophany (Epiphany) and Lent, and in some years the Apostles Fast having a duration of less than one day, as a result of the variable feasts following Pentecost, such as All Saints (which is celebrated not on Nov 1st but on the first Sunday after Pentecost, on the same day the Western church celebrates Trinity Sunday, which is celebrated on Pentecost Sunday alongside, or rather, on account of, the descent of the Holy Spirit in Eastern Orthodoxy), and those Sundays following it, overlapping the weeks preceding the Feast of the Holy Apostles Peter and Paul, which are normally the Apostles’ Fast, one of the four main fasts of the Orthodox year (the others being the Dormition Fast, which is short, and the Nativity Fast (Advent) and the Great Lent, which are both approximately six weeks along (of the ancient churches only the Church of Rome, and those churches which adopted variants of its liturgy, including most Protestant churches, have an Advent lasting only four Sundays, although some Lutherans observe a six week Advent).

The Russians, Ukrainians, Belarussians, Serbians, Georgians, Alaskans, and the Greek Orthodox Church of Jerusalem (and the Church of Sinai, a semi-independent church operating under its supervision), refused these concessions to modernity, as did among the Oriental Orthodox the Copts, Ethiopians, and also the Armenian Patriarchate of Jerusalem and the Syriac Orthodox Archdiocese of Jerusalem.

But of the Orthodox churches that embraced Westernization, none did so more than the Greek Orthodox, historically, although thanks to the influence of Athonite monks and the likes of Metropolitan Kallistos Ware, there has been some return to tradition.
 
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chevyontheriver

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This kind of factionalism is inherently undesirable; I would also note that some Greek Orthodox historically aspired to what was perceived as the respectability of Protestantism and installed pews, organs and so on, some of which were used to positive effect (and some Greek Orthodox churches, for example, those in the Ionian Islands, historically also had organs).

These concessions were however harmful in other respects, for example the calendar reforms in 1920-21, partial concessions were made to the West at the considerable expense of Orthodox tradition, for example, the Revised Julian Calendar, by causing the fixed feasts to be aligned with the Gregorian calendar which causes a few of them, such ss Christmas, Theophany, Candlemas, the Annunciation, the Feast of the Holy Apostles Peter and Paul, the Transfiguration, the Dormition, the Holy Cross, and St. Andrew the First Called, to align with the dates on which Western Christians celebrated them, it also resulted in adverse effects, including a massive increase in the number of Sundays that might occur between Theophany (Epiphany) and Lent, and in some years the Apostles Fast having a duration of less than one day, as a result of the variable feasts following Pentecost, such as All Saints (which is celebrated not on Nov 1st but on the first Sunday after Pentecost, on the same day the Western church celebrates Trinity Sunday, which is celebrated on Pentecost Sunday alongside, or rather, on account of, the descent of the Holy Spirit in Eastern Orthodoxy), and those Sundays following it, overlapping the weeks preceding the Feast of the Holy Apostles Peter and Paul, which are normally the Apostles’ Fast, one of the four main fasts of the Orthodox year (the others being the Dormition Fast, which is short, and the Nativity Fast (Advent) and the Great Lent, which are both approximately six weeks along (of the ancient churches only the Church of Rome, and those churches which adopted variants of its liturgy, including most Protestant churches, have an Advent lasting only four Sundays, although some Lutherans observe a six week Advent).

The Russians, Ukrainians, Belarussians, Serbians, Georgians, Alaskans, and the Greek Orthodox Church of Jerusalem (and the Church of Sinai, a semi-independent church operating under its supervision), refused these concessions to modernity, as did among the Oriental Orthodox the Copts, Ethiopians, and also the Armenian Patriarchate of Jerusalem and the Syriac Orthodox Archdiocese of Jerusalem.

But of the Orthodox churches that embraced Westernization, none did so more than the Greek Orthodox, historically, although thanks to the influence of Athonite monks and the likes of Metropolitan Kallistos Ware, there has been some return to tradition.
What I think you are saying here is that a common date for Easter is an impossible calendar wrecker. But then the date for Easter in 2024 IS the same. How does that work?
 
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The Liturgist

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What I think you are saying here is that a common date for Easter is an impossible calendar wrecker. But then the date for Easter in 2024 IS the same. How does that work?

No that’s not what I am saying. I am saying either the Gregorian or the Julian calendar should be used as opposed to a flawed hybrid where Pascha is dated using the Julian Paschalion but everything else is dated according to the Revised Julian Calendar, which corresponds, for the time being, to the Gregorian (but will eventually come out of sync I suspect, because it is said to be mathematically more precise).

I would also state that in those years when Pascha is not concurrent between the two calendars it is highly enjoyable as one can double-dip, and likewise the continued use of the Coptic and Julian calendars provides the opportunity to experience Western and Assyrian and Armenian services, and Eastern Orthodox and Coptic Orthodox services, sequentially, so while I promote ecumenical reconciliation this does not extend to changing the calendars. What matters is the celebration of Pascha occurs and not the specific calendars some churches use, except in the case where the calendar is the Revised Julian Calendar (really two calendars) which is compromised by the fact that it causes the Apostles Fast to disappear, among numerous other anomalies (such as the impossibility of a Kyriopascha, since in the Revised Julian Calendar Pascha cannot coincide with the Annunciation and thus the special festivities this entails are not observed), which is inevitable when you use a different calendar to calculate Pascha than the one you use for the fixed feasts. So as I see it, the approach of every Oriental Orthodox church except for the Syriac Orthodox Patriarchate of Antioch (which uses the Revised Julian Calendar, except in the Holy Land, where all Eastern churches use the Julian Calendar, which is good because it reduces overcrowding of the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem and other pilgrimage sites) of selecting either the Gregorian or the Julian Calendar, is the right one.
 
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chevyontheriver

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No that’s not what I am saying. I am saying either the Gregorian or the Julian calendar should be used as opposed to a flawed hybrid where Pascha is dated using the Julian Paschalion but everything else is dated according to the Revised Julian Calendar, which corresponds, for the time being, to the Gregorian (but will eventually come out of sync I suspect, because it is said to be mathematically more precise).

I would also state that in those years when Pascha is not concurrent between the two calendars it is highly enjoyable as one can double-dip, and likewise the continued use of the Coptic and Julian calendars provides the opportunity to experience Western and Assyrian and Armenian services, and Eastern Orthodox and Coptic Orthodox services, sequentially, so while I promote ecumenical reconciliation this does not extend to changing the calendars. What matters is the celebration of Pascha occurs and not the specific calendars some churches use, except in the case where the calendar is the Revised Julian Calendar (really two calendars) which is compromised by the fact that it causes the Apostles Fast to disappear, among numerous other anomalies (such as the impossibility of a Kyriopascha, since in the Revised Julian Calendar Pascha cannot coincide with the Annunciation and thus the special festivities this entails are not observed), which is inevitable when you use a different calendar to calculate Pascha than the one you use for the fixed feasts. So as I see it, the approach of every Oriental Orthodox church except for the Syriac Orthodox Patriarchate of Antioch (which uses the Revised Julian Calendar, except in the Holy Land, where all Eastern churches use the Julian Calendar, which is good because it reduces overcrowding of the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem and other pilgrimage sites) of selecting either the Gregorian or the Julian Calendar, is the right one.
I'd be in favor of an accurate calendar, whatever it's name is. Where days have 24 hours and weeks have seven days and an atomic clock measures out the years prudently so the seasons don't drift. Julius Caesar fixed an inaccurate calendar 2100 years ago. Gregory improved it 400 years ago. The creation of leap-seconds fixed it further. I get it that Protestants didn't like a calendar with a pope's name on it. So they resisted and delayed. And some Orthodox like a pope's name even less. But I do think celebrating Easter on the same day is a powerful witness. The biggest witness of that would be that to adopt it we would have to reduce our dislike of each other enough to agree. Wouldn't be all Jn 17, but a baby step. I see what you say about different calendars reducing crowding. That's practical. But I think the value of an agreeable date, especially after disgreeing for so long, is bigger. Yet I really don't think it will happen. It could. I just won't see it.
 
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bbbbbbb

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I'd be in favor of an accurate calendar, whatever it's name is. Where days have 24 hours and weeks have seven days and an atomic clock measures out the years prudently so the seasons don't drift. Julius Caesar fixed an inaccurate calendar 2100 years ago. Gregory improved it 400 years ago. The creation of leap-seconds fixed it further. I get it that Protestants didn't like a calendar with a pope's name on it. So they resisted and delayed. And some Orthodox like a pope's name even less. But I do think celebrating Easter on the same day is a powerful witness. The biggest witness of that would be that to adopt it we would have to reduce our dislike of each other enough to agree. Wouldn't be all Jn 17, but a baby step. I see what you say about different calendars reducing crowding. That's practical. But I think the value of an agreeable date, especially after disgreeing for so long, is bigger. Yet I really don't think it will happen. It could. I just won't see it.
I like George Eastman's plan for the calendar. He was the man who popularized the Eastman Photographic Company. He also developed (but did not invent) an amazingly easy and simple calendar which he used in his company. His calendar had thirteen months of four weeks each with seven days in each week. At the end of the year was an extra day (or two days in leap years). The months were designated as First, Second, Third, Fourth, etc. with no reference to pagan deities or emperors and the days were likewise designated as First, Second, etc. He allowed for various holidays to be included in their order as determined by outside sources. Thus, the 25th day of Month 13 would typically be Christmas.
 
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bbbbbbb

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This kind of factionalism is inherently undesirable; I would also note that some Greek Orthodox historically aspired to what was perceived as the respectability of Protestantism and installed pews, organs and so on, some of which were used to positive effect (and some Greek Orthodox churches, for example, those in the Ionian Islands, historically also had organs).

These concessions were however harmful in other respects, for example the calendar reforms in 1920-21, partial concessions were made to the West at the considerable expense of Orthodox tradition, for example, the Revised Julian Calendar, by causing the fixed feasts to be aligned with the Gregorian calendar which causes a few of them, such ss Christmas, Theophany, Candlemas, the Annunciation, the Feast of the Holy Apostles Peter and Paul, the Transfiguration, the Dormition, the Holy Cross, and St. Andrew the First Called, to align with the dates on which Western Christians celebrated them, it also resulted in adverse effects, including a massive increase in the number of Sundays that might occur between Theophany (Epiphany) and Lent, and in some years the Apostles Fast having a duration of less than one day, as a result of the variable feasts following Pentecost, such as All Saints (which is celebrated not on Nov 1st but on the first Sunday after Pentecost, on the same day the Western church celebrates Trinity Sunday, which is celebrated on Pentecost Sunday alongside, or rather, on account of, the descent of the Holy Spirit in Eastern Orthodoxy), and those Sundays following it, overlapping the weeks preceding the Feast of the Holy Apostles Peter and Paul, which are normally the Apostles’ Fast, one of the four main fasts of the Orthodox year (the others being the Dormition Fast, which is short, and the Nativity Fast (Advent) and the Great Lent, which are both approximately six weeks along (of the ancient churches only the Church of Rome, and those churches which adopted variants of its liturgy, including most Protestant churches, have an Advent lasting only four Sundays, although some Lutherans observe a six week Advent).

The Russians, Ukrainians, Belarussians, Serbians, Georgians, Alaskans, and the Greek Orthodox Church of Jerusalem (and the Church of Sinai, a semi-independent church operating under its supervision), refused these concessions to modernity, as did among the Oriental Orthodox the Copts, Ethiopians, and also the Armenian Patriarchate of Jerusalem and the Syriac Orthodox Archdiocese of Jerusalem.

But of the Orthodox churches that embraced Westernization, none did so more than the Greek Orthodox, historically, although thanks to the influence of Athonite monks and the likes of Metropolitan Kallistos Ware, there has been some return to tradition.
Thank you, as always. I would also mention that, architecturally, under Peter the Great, the Russian Orthodox church embraced Western styles such as Mannerism and the Baroque so that many of the famous Russian Orthodox church buildings, except St. Basil in Moscow which antedates these reforms, are striking hybrids of Orthodox plans with Classical overlays.
 
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The Liturgist

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I'd be in favor of an accurate calendar, whatever it's name is. Where days have 24 hours and weeks have seven days and an atomic clock measures out the years prudently so the seasons don't drift. Julius Caesar fixed an inaccurate calendar 2100 years ago. Gregory improved it 400 years ago. The creation of leap-seconds fixed it further. I get it that Protestants didn't like a calendar with a pope's name on it. So they resisted and delayed. And some Orthodox like a pope's name even less. But I do think celebrating Easter on the same day is a powerful witness. The biggest witness of that would be that to adopt it we would have to reduce our dislike of each other enough to agree. Wouldn't be all Jn 17, but a baby step. I see what you say about different calendars reducing crowding. That's practical. But I think the value of an agreeable date, especially after disgreeing for so long, is bigger. Yet I really don't think it will happen. It could. I just won't see it.

There are legitimate objections to the Gregorian Calendar from the Orthodox, and also I would note the Ukrainian Greek Catholics and Russian Greek Catholics and some Ruthenian Greek Catholics use the Julian calendar, and others, such as the Romanian and Bulgarian Greek Catholics, use the Revised Julian Calendar, and this has the effect of aligning the feasts in those countries with the Orthodox Church.

Also in Greece and Syria, apparently all Catholic churches, even those belonging to the Roman Rite, use the Julian Calendar, so that the public holidays in Greece line up, and in Syria perhaps for that reason or perhaps for safety in numbers, since both the Syriac Orthodox and Antiochian Orthodox churches are headquartered in Damascus, and after the genocide in Turkey most Syriac Orthodox are now concentrated in Syria and Iraq, with small numbers remaining in the area of Tur Abdin in Turkey where some of the monasteries are still (barely) operational, and also a healthy population exists as one of the ethnic minorities in Lebanon, where Antiochian Orthodox are one of the larger denominations, with Maronite Catholics being the largest, and in Israel, where all Eastern churches are on the Julian calendar except for the Assyrians and Eastern Catholics, there is a minority population of Syriac Orthodox concentrated Jerusalem and Bethlehem, predominantly with Palestinian passports.

The main reason not to change the calendars is the last time this was attempted, it caused the Old Calendarist schism, which has been a nightmare for the Orthodox which has personally affected me, and the idea floated a few years ago to fix Pascha to the second Sunday in April could cause an epic multi-denominational schism since unlike the Gregorian and Revised Julian Calendars, it would be impossible to argue such a change was compatible with the acts of the Council of Nicaea.

I strongly favor maintaining the status quo in terms of calendars to avoid schisms, but as I said earlier, there are other benefits, like reducing overcrowding at places of pilgrimage. Also, it is beneficial if not all Christians are off work simultaneously on Pascha, as I believe it is of benefit in our modern technological society to have Christians in safety-critical supervisory roles at all times, as many as possible.

I believe that communion can be restored between the Orthodox and the Roman Church, and the key is baby steps, because while restoring communion is great, causing a schism is not so great. Most likely, the Assyrian Church of the East, the Syriac Orthodox Church, the Antiochian Orthodox Church, and perhaps also one more autocephalous EO church, maybe Alexandria, or the Czech Lands and Slovakia, or Albania, all of which would benefit from communion with, but not subordination to, the Roman church. For reconciliation to happen it will require a recognition of autocephaly and it will also require a conservative Pope along the lines of Pope Benedict XVI or Pope John Paul II. I am hoping that the successor to Pope Francis is the Patriarch or Metropolitan or Archbishop of one of the Eastern Catholic Churches - the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church in light of what has happened, or the primate of the Ruthenian Greek Catholic Church in Europe given that it is spread the region, owing to neutrality and peacemaking potential, since the Ruthenians, also known as Carpatho-Rusyns or as Carpathian Russians, or as Greek Russians, who include several subethnicities such as the Lemkos, had been predominantly Catholic since the Union of Brest, but in the US a great many joined what was at the time the Russian Orthodox Church and later the Greek Orthodox Church, and they are spread throughout the high concentration of Orthodox churched in places such as Wilkes-Barre, Pennsylvania, in parishes belonging to the OCA, ACROD (the American Carpatho-Rusyn Orthodox Diocese, which is a diocese of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese and unfortunately tends to have Greek rather than Carpatho-Rusyn bishops), ROCOR, and the small number of Patriarchal Parishes (there were originally 75 that stayed with the MP in the 1920s when the three way split among the Russian churches between ROCOR, the Metropolia, which later became the autocephalous Orthodox Church in America, and the MP occurred, but over the years that number has shrunk to just under thirty, under a bishop in the US.

At any rate, I believe a Greek Catholic Pope could push for the liturgical reforms urgently needed in the Roman, Ambrosian and Maronite churches, by restoring substantial parts of the Tridentine, Dominican and other traditional Roman masses, the traditional Ambrosian Rite mass used in Milan, which I think would actually be, if translated into English and modified to follow the Roman liturgical calendar, the ideal next-generation mass, because its Liturgy of the Word has three scripture lessons, an Old Testament, an Epistle and a Gospel in addition to various proper Psalms, and this would allow retiring the awkward three year lectionary, and the traditional Maronite liturgy. Additionally such a Pope would understand the complex and fragmented nature of the Orthodox churches since, as might be obvious, the Byzantine Rite Catholics, who often identify as Orthodox in communion with Rome (for instance, the Lemko painter Andy Warhol, who felt compelled to sit in the back of the Roman Catholic parish he attended lest someone call him out for crossing himself right to left according to the Greek Catholic and Eastern Orthodox liturgical tradition in which he was raised - fortunately there is more tolerance and the only church where someone commented on my crossing myself was an LCMS parish I visited, which amused me considering some Lutherans do make the sign of the cross including Martin Luther, although the person was not mean or condescending, they were merely perplexed as to why I was doing it). Such a Greek Catholic Pope would be in a prime position to negotiate with the Orthodox because of the understanding they would have of how the Eastern Churches function, and the stress they would place on liturgics.

By the way, there is an interesting and unusual film from the mid 1960s starring Anthony Quinn as a Russian or Ukrainian Greek Catholic bishop who is unexpectedly elected Pope after being released from a Gulag by the Soviet premiere, played by Sir Laurence Olivier. The film concludes with him stopping China from starting a nuclear war due to a food shortage by putting up the real estate of the Catholic Church as collateral in order to facilitate China being able to purchase food on credit. The Shoes of the Fisherman, directed by the same British Catholic director who in 1976 released Logan’s Run with Michael York (who I believe was also Christian) and Peter Ustinov. It was clear he was a devout Catholic, and the film was not offensive in the manner of recent productions about exorcists or the deservedly controversial The Young Pope series with Jude Law and its sequel The New Pope, which also starred John Malkovich - I can’t believe the Vatican allowed such risque productions to be filmed in its churches and gardens, but they did, for some indecipherable reason.
 
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The Liturgist

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I like George Eastman's plan for the calendar. He was the man who popularized the Eastman Photographic Company. He also developed (but did not invent) an amazingly easy and simple calendar which he used in his company. His calendar had thirteen months of four weeks each with seven days in each week. At the end of the year was an extra day (or two days in leap years). The months were designated as First, Second, Third, Fourth, etc. with no reference to pagan deities or emperors and the days were likewise designated as First, Second, etc. He allowed for various holidays to be included in their order as determined by outside sources. Thus, the 25th day of Month 13 would typically be Christmas.

And that would also cause a schism. By the way, the Coptic Calendar on which the Julian Calendar is based uses a short variable-length month where every fourth year a leap day is added, to allow all the other months to be the same length.

I myself really don’t care about the fact that some of our months and days contain references to Greco-Roman deities, and Nordic ones in the case of Thursday, since the planets also took on their names, and also since the Copts, who are among the most persecuted and pious Christians, still use the Coptic Calendar, in which this is The Year of Martyrs 1740 (the Coptic epoch is the start of the Diocletian persecution, which is good, since we now know that both the Anno Domini and Anno Mundi epochs used by the Roman and Byzantine calendars are inaccurate, since our Lord had to have been born in 6 BC based on the information in the Gospel according to St. Luke, since Augustus was still alive and so was the elder Herod also mentioned in the Gospel according to St. Matthew. But that same Coptic calendar still uses names from Egyptian paganism for the months, and one can tell from the similarity of these names to the names of the months in the Hebrew calendar that likely, their months names had Pagan origins as well.

Thus today is the 22nd of Hathor, in the Year of the Martyrs 1740.

Hathor made for a memorable villain in Stargate SG-1, if nothing else. Although their most amusing villain was Baal.
 
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bbbbbbb

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And that would also cause a schism. By the way, the Coptic Calendar on which the Julian Calendar is based uses a short variable-length month where every fourth year a leap day is added, to allow all the other months to be the same length.

I myself really don’t care about the fact that some of our months and days contain references to Greco-Roman deities, and Nordic ones in the case of Thursday, since the planets also took on their names, and also since the Copts, who are among the most persecuted and pious Christians, still use the Coptic Calendar, in which this is The Year of Martyrs 1740 (the Coptic epoch is the start of the Diocletian persecution, which is good, since we now know that both the Anno Domini and Anno Mundi epochs used by the Roman and Byzantine calendars are inaccurate, since our Lord had to have been born in 6 BC based on the information in the Gospel according to St. Luke, since Augustus was still alive and so was the elder Herod also mentioned in the Gospel according to St. Matthew. But that same Coptic calendar still uses names from Egyptian paganism for the months, and one can tell from the similarity of these names to the names of the months in the Hebrew calendar that likely, their months names had Pagan origins as well.

Thus today is the 22nd of Hathor, in the Year of the Martyrs 1740.

Hathor made for a memorable villain in Stargate SG-1, if nothing else. Although their most amusing villain was Baal.
And then, of course, we can further complicate matters with the Lunar Calendar in use in the Far East, with its cycle of astrological years. I have yet to comprehend how they determine which day to celebrate the New Year.
 
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JSRG

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No that’s not what I am saying. I am saying either the Gregorian or the Julian calendar should be used as opposed to a flawed hybrid where Pascha is dated using the Julian Paschalion but everything else is dated according to the Revised Julian Calendar, which corresponds, for the time being, to the Gregorian (but will eventually come out of sync I suspect, because it is said to be mathematically more precise).

The Revised Julian Calendar and Gregorian Calendar will come out of sync eventually, but there should be a strong emphasis on the word eventually--it won't happen until 2800 AD.
 
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chevyontheriver

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And then, of course, we can further complicate matters with the Lunar Calendar in use in the Far East, with its cycle of astrological years. I have yet to comprehend how they determine which day to celebrate the New Year.
An actual lunar month would make some sense to me. With occasional leap days to keep the new moons in synch. But would it fly? The Muslims might love it. The astrological aspect would turn me off though.

Actually I see no hope for an actual unified scientifically based calendar that Christians of all stripes could agree to. Love to see it but not holding my breath for it.
 
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bbbbbbb

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An actual lunar month would make some sense to me. With occasional leap days to keep the new moons in synch. But would it fly? The Muslims might love it. The astrological aspect would turn me off though.

Actually I see no hope for an actual unified scientifically based calendar that Christians of all stripes could agree to. Love to see it but not holding my breath for it.
I agree entirely.
 
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