Purgatory And Prayers For The Dead.

[ozso]

I'd love it if someone could clearly explain Arial Toll Houses for me.

 

[chevyontheriver]

I will do it for you,

Thank you.

... but perhaps we might first engage in some anti-Nestorian, anti-Iconoclast, anti-crypto Arian polemics?

Haven't we been there and done that a few times already, with both of us on the same side?

After all it is an obscure doctrine specific to the Eastern Orthodox and not even the most frightening prospect among Patristic concepts of what happens to the soul after death.

I keep hearing about it, but never getting a real explanation, as some sort of explanation for prayers for the dead. And not as something the Orthodox seem to all agree on either.

 

[dzheremi]

This has always been a peculiarity of Latin theology. Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox clergy do not even assign penances to everyone whose confession they hear.

This is a huge difference for me, as someone who came to Orthodoxy from Roman Catholicism. I was lucky to not have been burdened with stereotypically legalistic/formulaic penance as a Roman Catholic (you know, "say X Our Fathers and Y Hail Marys" or what have you), but even then, the difference is palpable, just in terms of approach to confession overall, as a thing.

If you could all forgive me for such a 'fleshly' comparison (for lack of another way to explain it succinctly or without getting into personal details), it's like how they say that those in successful relationships approach problems as "both of you against the problem" rather than "both of you against each other". Every time I've been to confession in the Orthodox Church, because of the way that it is approached, it has felt very much like "me and my father of confession against the problem" (my many grievous sins), which is very helpful, for obvious reasons. Not that it stops me from having to go to confession again in the future (since sin is still bigger than my finite ability to handle it), but you know...in terms of being able to see the things we discuss in a different light than I did before that helps with how to internalize as well as externalize the guidance I receive, it is very much an improvement for me personally.

 

[chevyontheriver]

I know it's supposed to be in 2 Maccabees 15:11-12, but I've never seen it despite the numerous times I've read it. I refer to the Douay-Rheims and the New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition fairly often.

2 Maccabees 12: 38-45

 

[ozso]

False. Archbishop Lazar Puhalo was reprimanded by Metropolitan Tikhon for his promotion of gay marriage and ordaining homosexual clergy, and forbidden from discussing it, but he is free to oppose Aerial Toll Houses, and he continued to be a vocal critic of it, and he remains a retired Archbishop. He had been an episcopi vagante but was received by the OCA as a retired Archbishop in an act of oikonomia.

I got the information from the article below. But I must have read it wrong.

1980: On December 2nd, 1980 n.s., Deacon Lev is ordered to cease lecturing in parishes on the subject of the toll houses by the Synod of Bishops of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia...
On November 24, 1981 n.s., He was suspended for disobeying his bishop, and on December 23rd, n.s. he was deposed because he had "disregarded the written admonition given him in writing and persists in his sin

Lazar (Puhalo) of Ottawa - OrthodoxWiki

orthodoxwiki.org

 

[The Liturgist]

Yes, it seems to be a Latin way of thinking. But then the enduring Latin quest for understanding seems mirrored by a Greek lack of quest for understanding. Way back when the Cappadocians were high systematists but it seems that was then. The Orthodox seem fine with leaving everything undefined these days. Maybe some of that is a good thing. But it also seems uncurious.

Anyhow, how do we get the broken window fixed if we absolve the guilt of breaking it and that's just it?

Regarding Greek and Sydian theology, there is actually a quest for understanding, and for the acquisition of real theology, and the development of practices to refine that process, such as apophatic theology and Hesychasm. There is no shortage of advanced theological scholarship in Orthodox circles. Indeed my main complaint about Scholastic theology is that it frequently comes across as stale and complacent.

Systematic theology is something I think is a dead end, but dogmatic theology on tne other hand, and mystical theology, are areas where we continue to see exciting work. Specifically, the reason why I reject systematic theology is because some aspects of the nature of God are epistemologically unknowable, and also, systematic theology tends to produce massive works like the Summa and the Institutes and the Church Dogmatics of Karl Barth, which are so complex and formidable that the amount of time required to understand them in their entirety is unavailable for most scholars of theology, myself included, and usually we are limited into having to select only one. Also, it has a tendenct to displace Patristic thought when that Patristic thought is incompatible with its particular system, which is often the case, and indeed Karl Barth simply deprecated the value of Patristic thought, unlike Calvin and St. Thomas Aquinas who, to their credit, did try to ensure some degree of compatibility.

Rather, I think it is more interesting to extract dogmatic theology from Patristic teaching, like what Metropolitan Kallistos Ware did in The Orthodox Way, and he then went a step further by identifying various Western and ancient theological sources outside of the Eastern Orthodox tradition whose ideas could be used to help explain it, much like how St. Thomas Aquinas made use of Aristotle and Averroes. However, because of the more dynamic nature of dogmatic theology, Metropolitan Kallistos was able to engage with many more such sources, including many Roman Catholic writers, as well as the likes of Soren Kierkegaard, and some more exotic sources.

Also, regarding sin, much of it is not like a broken window, but more like an addiction to a substance or to self-harming behaviors, like for example, how young children bit by mosquitos, or in prior decades, including in my childhood, afflicted by chicken pox or measles, will be inclined to scratch at the bites or sores unless they are blessed with parents who are able to apply a soothing balm, to prevent them from unwittinfly damaging their skin, causing permanent scarring. Christ stands ready with such a salve to administer to us, and does so directly in baptized children, which is why the Orthodox also chrismate and provide the Eucharist to our infants, but in the case of those of a certain age, He requires our consent, like any Physician. If we are intelligent, we will hear the Wisdom of Jesus ben Sirach, in Ecclesiasticus, and honor a Physician, but so often pride motivates us to second guess our doctors, even our heavenly Savior.

 

[chevyontheriver]

I've looked into the Latin massacre. Were you aware that there were four Latin quarters in Constantinople controlled by the Venetians, the Pisans, the Almafians and one other whose name escapes me. These four groups had a stranglehold on all trade but were also constantly attacking each other, not unlike the modern mafia families each trying to control as much of the trade as they could. Local frustration with this 'mafia' control is what led to the attacks on these Latins, which unfortunately spilled over into attacking anyone and anything associated with the Latins as a whole. I believe this is when the Doge of Venice was blinded, and it was his hatred and desire for revenge against the Byzantines which led to the Sack of Constantinople.

They all sound like wonderful people. And we should continue seeking revenge until we kill them all. Right?

 

[ozso]

2 Maccabees 12: 38-45

I see. 2 Maccabees 15:11-12 is actually the passage I've seen given regarding praying to the saints. 2 Maccabees 12: 38-45 in regard to praying for the dead is quite clear and unambiguous.

"For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. 45 But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, so that they might be delivered from their sin." 2 Maccabees 12: 44-45

 

[chevyontheriver]

Nonsense. The seven Ecumenical Councils are where the teaching of the Church was clearly defined in defense against heresy. There was no new doctrine defined.

Development of Doctrine is the hypothesis put forward by John Henry Newman in 1909 in order to justify the Latin innovations

I trust you have read John Henry Newman on the subject. You have, haven't you? You would then know that his test case on development was Arius vs Athanasius and the development was in saying the Son was of the same substance as the Father, something that was never systematically put forth before and approved in council. Oh, in addition to Newman, you can also read Lonergan's 'The Way to Nicea'.

 

[The Liturgist]

I got the information from the article below. But I must have read it wrong.

1980: On December 2nd, 1980 n.s., Deacon Lev is ordered to cease lecturing in parishes on the subject of the toll houses by the Synod of Bishops of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia...
On November 24, 1981 n.s., He was suspended for disobeying his bishop, and on December 23rd, n.s. he was deposed because he had "disregarded the written admonition given him in writing and persists in his sin

Lazar (Puhalo) of Ottawa - OrthodoxWiki

orthodoxwiki.org

Oh, well, yes, he did engage in contumacy in ROCOR. But it is de rigeur for ROCOR and OCA to exchange bishops they dislike with each other, like a pair of sisters trading costume jewelry, accessories and notions (buttons, ribbons and so forth). What makes Lazar Puhalo’s case problematic is that he was a deacon when he was deposed from ROCOR, but he attained the rank of bishop in between the two, and OCA basically provided him with a pension and saved him from poverty by receiving him as an auxilliary bishop, but he then had to go and utter the kind of absurdities about homosexuals that are the stock-in-trade of the seminaries of the mainline Protestant churches and the disobedient German bishops of the Roman Catholic Church, and thus Metropolitan Tikhon was forced to order him to zip it, so to speak, or else find someone else to keep him in beer and cassocks, and wisely he opted for the former option.

I have a particular lack of respect for the tiny minority of Orthodox clergy like Fr. Robert Arrakis who have dared to contradict the teaching of the Early Church on sexual perversion, fortunately, the Orthodox Church does a good job at silencing them. For example, when Fr. Robert wrote his infamous article for the youth magazine of the OCA, every single OCA priest from Texas, about 200 of them, wrote letters of protest. And they probably would have left and gone to ROCOR had it not been addressed.

 

[chevyontheriver]

I see. 2 Maccabees 15:11-12 is actually the passage I've seen given regarding praying to the saints. 2 Maccabees 12: 38-45 in regard to praying for the dead is quite clear and unambiguous.

"For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. 45 But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, so that they might be delivered from their sin." 2 Maccabees 12: 44-45

My mistake. I thought you were looking for prayers for the dead.

I think chapter 15 refers to people then dead but still praying, such as Jeremiah.

 

[The Liturgist]

Haven't we been there and done that a few times already, with both of us on the same side?

Yes, and we need to do it some more, since @MarkRohfrietsch and I last weekened noticed an alarming increase in crypto-Arian content.

And yes, you are right, the doctrine on what happens to the soul after death is not universally agreed among even the Eastern Orthodox, let alone between the EO, OO and Assyrian churches and also those Eastern Catholic churches like the Chaldeans and Ukrainian Greek Catholics who have rejected all theological Latinization since being encouraged to do so by Vatican II.

Orthodox doctrine is primarily apophatic, in that it defines specific errors and heresies that must not be believed, while permitting a freedom of theologoumemna, or theological opinion, within the pale of Orthodoxy this provides. This in turn has facilitated the development of models which contend for the role of official doctrine, and in some Eastern Orthodox jurisidictions, and among the Athonite monks, tne Toll House concept has been officially received, but not universally, and not by the Oriental Orthodox. However the true unity of the ancient church is in the liturgy; it is the specific prayers said for the dead that provide the definitive doctrinal standard to which everyone is obliged to conform.

Lex orandi, lex credendi.

Thus, with that settled for the moment, but I promise I will explore the morose subject of Patristic soterio-eschatological kergyma, I propose we go forth and teach the shared apostolic faith of our respective local churches, which is to say, the Catholic faith, to those who have been enthralled by devious heretics posing as Christians.

 

[prodromos]

I'd love it if someone could clearly explain Arial Toll Houses for me.

It's more relaxed than Times New Roman Toll Houses but more serious than Comic Sans Toll Houses

 

[chevyontheriver]

Systematic theology is something I think is a dead end, but dogmatic theology on the other hand, and mystical theology, are areas where we continue to see exciting work.

I may agree about Barth or Tillich or any modern attempts at systematic theology. I don't think such theology as been well done in hundreds of years. But it was done pretty well by the Cappadocians. I was referring to them much much more than Barth. And remember that Thomas Aquinas, who can be read with great profit today put down his pen and wrote no more after a vision. So you are right that mining the Fathers can be good, and yet even better is to simply seek the face of God. At least to do theology on one's knees rather than as some academic pursuit.

Also, regarding sin, much of it is not like a broken window, but more like an addiction to a substance or to self-harming behaviors, like for example, how young children bit by mosquitos, or in prior decades, including in my childhood, afflicted by chicken pox or measles, will be inclined to scratch at the bites or sores unless they are blessed with parents who are able to apply a soothing balm, to prevent them from unwittinfly damaging their skin, causing permanent scarring. Christ stands ready with such a salve to administer to us, and does so directly in baptized children, which is why the Orthodox also chrismate and provide the Eucharist to our infants, but in the case of those of a certain age, He requires our consent, like any Physician. If we are intelligent, we will hear the Wisdom of Jesus ben Sirach, in Ecclesiasticus, and honor a Physician, but so often pride motivates us to second guess our doctors, even our heavenly Savior.

There are many metaphorical expressions to understand sin. I was not suggesting mine was exhaustive. Mine does illustrate how sin damages society and how that damage can and should be repaired by somebody. Yours illustrates how sin is self-destructive. Both take sin seriously. Our modern problem is to trivialize sin, even denying there are such things as sin, and if sin is even recognized a flippant 'sorry' suffices. Purgatory takes sin seriously. Reparation now or after death is necessary, even if the guilt of sin is forgiven. That scares off many Protestants who think it is all about working off the guilt of sin, which of course it is not.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Or from me, for that matter, although I like most programming languages aside from PHP, VisualBASIC, especially the pre .NET versions which offer no possibility of migration to a superior language, Pascal, due more to the limitations of it presently, and COBOL because compared to the other three programming languages of equivalent antiquity. namely, FORTRAN, ALGOL and Lisp, it is spectacularly outclassed, especially by Lisp, but Fortran was decent for the time and Algol helped inspire bcpl and PL/I which in turn led to Ken Thompson’s B, which led to Dennis Ritchie’s C, and the rest is history.

So that's how C got it's name.

 

[ozso]

Indeed, and I have offered to go through my posts with you, line by line, to clarify any points of confusion and also to assist you in obtaining the texts I cited. I don’t think many people on CF.com are willing to be the personal Patristics tutor and librarian to members, but I have always offered to do this, and indeed if you review my posting history you will see that I routinely extend such an offer.

As I see it the subject of Patristics and ecclesiastical history cannot be made any simpler this side of the inaccurate and biased oversimplification you shared from gotquestions, so instead my approach is to open tne faucet all the way, and then supply barrells of one-on-one assistance to members who request it, for collection of what Orthodox Christians call “the Nectar of the Fathers” and in this manner I have individually mentored several members of this forum, both via PM and in the open forum.

Mentors usually start out simple and build up from there. Your reverse method is rather unusual.

 

[chevyontheriver]

At any rate I am disinterested in arguing with Roman Catholics and frustrated at threads such as this one which result in liturgical Christians clashing with each other, particularly given the widespread problems of iconoclasm, Nestorianism and Arianism among some aliturgical Protestants and Restorationists on this forum.

We are on the same page on those things. Scratch a poster on CF these days and it seems you find an Arian or a Nestorian or a Gnostic or some proponent of ancient heresy who doesn't even get it that their new idea is old news.

Indeed the main reason I have participated in this thread has been to defend the practice of prayer for the dead from its detractors,

And it is manifest that we pray for the dead, have prayed for the dead, inheriting that from Judaism. Not to get anyone out of hell, for as John Chrysostom said the time to prevent someone from going to hell is BEFORE they die, but in some manner to benefit those already actually saved.

... as opposed to getting into a pointless food fight with Catholics like yourself who are some of my closest friends on CF.com united in our appreciation for Our Lady, the Blessed Virgin Mary and Mother of God and for the sacred liturgy of the Eucharist, which connects us also with traditional Protestants such as our friends @Jipsah @ViaCrucis and others (and I myself have strong connections with traditional Protestants).

We can agree about prayers for the dead. We can continue to talk about why we do it even if that is more challenging, but we could also just leave it for now as unresolved. Maybe best just to offer some prayers. November is a month for such commemorative prayers for Catholics

My ancestry would have indicated I should be either Lutheran or Anglican or Methodist. I am almost an accidental Catholic. And I am recently drawn considerably towards Anglican spirituality, which I can explore further via the Anglican Ordinariate. As I was growing up it was not possible to turn around without bumping into a Lutheran. And so I decided to read Pelikan's 'Luther's Works'. Not all of it but massive amounts. Another draw is and has long been to explore the Hebrew roots of my faith, which probably started when I heard pope Pius XI say "Spiritually we are Semites". I keep coming back to that again and again when I think of liturgy, sharing something with my Savior's way of worship.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Mentors usually start out simple and build up from there. Your reverse method is rather unusual.

Sometimes the fire hose is the best way.

 

[chevyontheriver]

At a minimum modifying it should require an ecumenical council. However, don’t feel bad; Canon XX is one of the most frequently ignored canons and the Roman Church is not the only one which is violating jt. However, it is the reason why the Eastern Orthodox service of Kneeling Vespers that follows the Divine Liturgy on Pentecost Sunday is a Vespers… (since that advances the liturgical day to Holy Spirit Monday which is the first day not covered by this canon).

Canons are often repeated in subsequent councils as a way of stressing their continued applicability.

 

[ozso]

Sometimes the fire hose is the best way.

How so? Jesus literally knew everything. But I don't recall him employing fire hose teaching.