Purgatory And Prayers For The Dead.

[The Liturgist]

That seems to be all over the place with different versions of orthodoxy and all sorts of people saying different things. Maybe that's why xeno.of.athens referred to the Orthodox as 11th century Protestants. So far I've taken a liking to Orthodoxy. But if it teaches that Christians have to play some battle of wits with demons and will get dragged down into hell by one of them if they get it wrong, then my liking for Orthodoxy has gone sour.

It does not teach that, despite what Archbishop Lazar Puhalo claims in his polemics against the “toll house” concept. Such a belief would be Gnosticism, which we anathematize. What Archbishop Puhalo is doing is basically a strawman argument, criticizing a crude charicature of the actual beliefs. This is why I suggested the books that I did earlier - and I can help supply them, for they make it clear what the belief is, and its one I find rather more comforting than Purgatory, but it requires understanding a different view of what sin is (hamartiology) and also of how specifically Christ saved us on the Cross and through His incarnation more generally (Soteriology). Part of this I suspect you know, and part of it you might not know, but I am here to furnish you with access to the most relevant books on the subject or summaries thereof, so if you want to go there, PM me. Although you would probably do better to approach someone like ArmyMatt or Prodromos as they are more knowledgeable than I am, if they have the time to assist you in that respect.

 

[The Liturgist]

And what was taught by Trent too.
Honestly, you are far more convincing when writing about your own faith tradition than you are when venturing into my faith tradition.

I explicitly praised the way Purgatory was clarified by the Council of Trent! You accuse me of a crime of which I am innocent of; my criticism is of the way Purgatory was taught before the Council of Trent in the Counter-Reformation intervened, and prohibited abuses such as the sale of indulgences.

 

[ozso]

I'd agree if that really is what Orthodoxies teach.

That's the impression I got from the Orthodox wiki. And what I heard Lazar Puhalo say in the first video confirmed my impression. Although it seems to be all over the place and highly ambiguous so far. This interpretation from Fr. Lawrence Farley puts it in a better light. Put in simplest terms, if you've lived your life indulging in sin with little regard for God and living a godly life, then you're in trouble. And of course there's nothing new about that.

​

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I explicitly praised the way Purgatory was clarified by the Council of Trent! You accuse me of a crime of which I am innocent of; my criticism is of the way Purgatory was taught before the Council of Trent in the Counter-Reformation intervened, and prohibited abuses such as the sale of indulgences.

100 years before Trent there was Florence which also gave teaching on Purgatory and discouraged any financial gain associated with it. But with this excursion into history we're straying from the thread's intended topic, specifically, a debate about indulgences is out of place.

 

[dzheremi]

...without use of the metaphorical framework of Aerial Toll Houses as favored by Fr. Seraphim Rose, as the concept is unknown among the Oriental Orthodox as far as I am aware ( @dzheremi would know )...

I've never heard of them outside of an EO context.

 

[ozso]

It does not teach that, despite what Archbishop Lazar Puhalo claims in his polemics against the “toll house” concept. Such a belief would be Gnosticism, which we anathematize. What Archbishop Puhalo is doing is basically a strawman argument, criticizing a crude charicature of the actual beliefs. This is why I suggested the books that I did earlier - and I can help supply them, for they make it clear what the belief is, and its one I find rather more comforting than Purgatory, but it requires understanding a different view of what sin is (hamartiology) and also of how specifically Christ saved us on the Cross and through His incarnation more generally (Soteriology). Part of this I suspect you know, and part of it you might not know, but I am here to furnish you with access to the most relevant books on the subject or summaries thereof, so if you want to go there, PM me. Although you would probably do better to approach someone like ArmyMatt or Prodromos as they are more knowledgeable than I am, if they have the time to assist you in that respect.

As I just explained to Xeno, that's the impression I got from reading about it in the Orthodox wiki, before hearing what Lazar Puhalo had to say about it. I read this thread on the subject which has commentary from ArmyMatt. And based on what was said there, I listened to what Fr. Lawrence Farley wrote on the subject. Fr. Farley's 10 minute explanation sounded a lot more reasonable.

​

 

[The Liturgist]

That's the impression I got from the Orthodox wiki. And what I heard Lazar Puhalo say in the first video confirmed my impression. Although it seems to be all over the place and highly ambiguous so far. This interpretation from Fr. Lawrence Farley puts it in a better light. Put in simplest terms, if you've lived your life indulging in sin with little regard for God and living a godly life, then you're in trouble. And of course there's nothing new about that.

​

Fr. Lawrence Farley is a very good priest, who I respect greatly.

Conversely, the Orthodox Wiki suffers from a problem in that it has a small community, and occasionally, erroneous statements are posted on it - I know because I myself wrote an error-ridden article, and then had to edit it after I became aware that I had made a number of errors; fortunately, I don’t think it was on anything particularly likely to impact someone’s decision to become Orthodox or not, but the fact that an erroneous post authored by myself was up there for some time, a long time, really, before I realized I had gotten it wrong and had a chance to correct it, underscores the problems that small wikis have in terms of maintaining reliability.

This is why you should, in acquiring an initial knowledge of one of the ancient churches such as the Eastern Orthodox, listen to canonical serving priests like Fr. Lawrence Farley, who are serving in a canonical capacity and who do not have a reputation for erroneous remarks, as opposed to retired episcopi vagantes whose status was an act of oikonomia to provide them with a pension and dignity in their retirement, and read widely accepted and trusted books, rather than wikis with small editorial staff (or for that matter, Wikipedia pages that cover particularly obscure topics). There are even a few priests, primarily in the more liberal denominations like the OCA, who agree with the views of Dr. David Bentley Hart, which underscores the importance of seeking out those resources and persons that within the Orthodox community are regarded as being reliable.

Actually, since you like Fr. Josiah Trenham, I would suggest you get in touch with him, and with Fr. Lawrence Farley, and a few other priests. He is accessible and is a fine gentleman. Using these priests, perhaps get recommendations on specific local parishes that are good at catechesis, and visit those. Ultimately you can’t truly know Orthodoxy without accumulating some liturgical hours in Orthodox parishes, just like you can’t know Aviation without accumulating some hours in a Cessna 150 or 152 or some other inexpensive to rent aircraft at a good flight school. And since the Orthodox churches tend to have midweek services and Vespers on Saturday night, one can do this without detracting from attendance at one’s primary church.

 

[ozso]

Fr. Lawrence Farley is a very good priest, who I respect greatly.

I'm glad to hear that. I was kind of afraid you were going to shoot down what he said too.

 

[The Liturgist]

I've never heard of them outside of an EO context.

Neither have I, although I regard them in the same way Fr. Seraphim Rose did, as a kind of metaphor since words fail to describe the reality of what happens to the soul after death, and there are other metaphors and analogies that could be used, and I have extreme confidence in the ability of each of the Oriental Orthodox churches to express themselves succinctly according to their unique liturgical and cultural patrimony when it comes to an important subject such of this.

 

[The Liturgist]

I'm glad to hear that. I was kind of afraid you were going to shoot down what he said too.

I am in pursuit of Truth, who through the Holy Spirit became incarnate in the womb of the Virgin Mary, and those Orthodox clergy who are known to me, whose work has helped me find that man, Jesus Christ, who is Truth, Love, and fullness of all other virtues and perfections in their highest and ultimate form, the Only Begotten Son and Word of God, who did condescend to put on our human nature in order that it might be restored and glorified. I am not interested in “shooting down” statements or winning debates for the sake of winning debates. Frankly, I wish this conversation was not even happening, as I regard minor doctrinal differences such as Purgatory as understood in its post-Tridentine form, but which have such a reputation as to provoke controversy, as causing needless friction between traditional liturgical Christians. This friction is counter-productive, particularly when there are those among us who regard the traditional liturgical churches as being apostate, and who believe in theological errors like Nestorianism, Iconoclasm, etc.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Fr. Lawrence Farley is a very good priest, who I respect greatly.

The video is rather robotic, does he not speak English well, or is there some disability that made using a text-to-voice ai necessary?

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Yes, and we need to do it some more, since @MarkRohfrietsch and I last weekened noticed an alarming increase in crypto-Arian content.

And yes, you are right, the doctrine on what happens to the soul after death is not universally agreed among even the Eastern Orthodox, let alone between the EO, OO and Assyrian churches and also those Eastern Catholic churches like the Chaldeans and Ukrainian Greek Catholics who have rejected all theological Latinization since being encouraged to do so by Vatican II.

Orthodox doctrine is primarily apophatic, in that it defines specific errors and heresies that must not be believed, while permitting a freedom of theologoumemna, or theological opinion, within the pale of Orthodoxy this provides. This in turn has facilitated the development of models which contend for the role of official doctrine, and in some Eastern Orthodox jurisidictions, and among the Athonite monks, tne Toll House concept has been officially received, but not universally, and not by the Oriental Orthodox. However the true unity of the ancient church is in the liturgy; it is the specific prayers said for the dead that provide the definitive doctrinal standard to which everyone is obliged to conform.

Lex orandi, lex credendi.

Thus, with that settled for the moment, but I promise I will explore the morose subject of Patristic soterio-eschatological kergyma, I propose we go forth and teach the shared apostolic faith of our respective local churches, which is to say, the Catholic faith, to those who have been enthralled by devious heretics posing as Christians.

@chevyontheriver @The Liturgist,

Crypto and not so crypto Arianism has indeed been running rampant among some who are professing to be "orthodox" as defined by the Nicene Creed. Out and out trollish behavior; I would go so far as to say "wolves in sheep's clothing".

Staying on topic... Ask one of our Pastors; you will get one opinion; ask another and they will point out that our traditional liturgies do retain such prayers. Like @Ordinary Christian Christian's take on 1st Maccabees, what it says is not always what is seen by the reader. As all are aware, Lutherans don't draw doctrine from anywhere but from the Gospels; The Epistles, The Revelation, and to a lesser extent, the Apocrypha is used to support Christian doctrines in our Church. Whether we do or don't, the bottom line is that both Pastors would agree that if we do, it has no impact on the final outcome of the person who died. The Pastor that sees those prayers, see them as not earning merritts for the person who died, but as a declaration reflecting our faith in God's promises. For example, in the rites for the Commendation, the Blessing of a Grave and the committal where we pray that God would keep the mortal remains until the dead are raised on the last day, is not going to motivate God to do so, we know He will; rather it is us "confessing" our faith in knowing that God does this, and will likewise do it for us.

 

[ozso]

I am in pursuit of Truth, who through the Holy Spirit became incarnate in the womb of the Virgin Mary, and those Orthodox clergy who are known to me, whose work has helped me find that man, Jesus Christ, who is Truth, Love, and fullness of all other virtues and perfections in their highest and ultimate form, the Only Begotten Son and Word of God, who did condescend to put on our human nature in order that it might be restored and glorified. I am not interested in “shooting down” statements or winning debates for the sake of winning debates. Frankly, I wish this conversation was not even happening, as I regard minor doctrinal differences such as Purgatory as understood in its post-Tridentine form, but which have such a reputation as to provoke controversy, as causing needless friction between traditional liturgical Christians. This friction is counter-productive, particularly when there are those among us who regard the traditional liturgical churches as being apostate, and who believe in theological errors like Nestorianism, Iconoclasm, etc.

You shot down Abp. Puhalo because you had good reason to call his argument against toll houses a strawman. There's nothing wrong with that. But it's not something I saw coming because I don't know much about the topic. I liked what Fr. Lawrence Farley said, but like with Abp. Puhalo, I didn't know what your take on it was going to be. I was glad it was positive because I value your opinion.

 

[ozso]

The video is rather robotic, does he not speak English well, or is there some disability that made using a text-to-voice ai necessary?

That wasn't posted by Fr. Farley. The owner of the channel "James Peers" posts excerpts from various books using text-to-voice, perhaps for the reasons you suggested or maybe he doesn't like the sound of his own voice. While I don't like listening to robots either, I put that aside in favor of the content of the excerpt.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

On the topic of tollhouses, a concept that is quite foreign to my thinking. I found this video

 

[ozso]

On the topic of tollhouses, a concept that is quite foreign to my thinking. I found this video

What he's saying seems to be more in line with what Archbishop Puhalo says.

 

[ozso]

Fr. Lawrence Farley is a very good priest, who I respect greatly.

Conversely, the Orthodox Wiki suffers from a problem in that it has a small community, and occasionally, erroneous statements are posted on it - I know because I myself wrote an error-ridden article, and then had to edit it after I became aware that I had made a number of errors; fortunately, I don’t think it was on anything particularly likely to impact someone’s decision to become Orthodox or not, but the fact that an erroneous post authored by myself was up there for some time, a long time, really, before I realized I had gotten it wrong and had a chance to correct it, underscores the problems that small wikis have in terms of maintaining reliability.

This is why you should, in acquiring an initial knowledge of one of the ancient churches such as the Eastern Orthodox, listen to canonical serving priests like Fr. Lawrence Farley, who are serving in a canonical capacity and who do not have a reputation for erroneous remarks, as opposed to retired episcopi vagantes whose status was an act of oikonomia to provide them with a pension and dignity in their retirement, and read widely accepted and trusted books, rather than wikis with small editorial staff (or for that matter, Wikipedia pages that cover particularly obscure topics). There are even a few priests, primarily in the more liberal denominations like the OCA, who agree with the views of Dr. David Bentley Hart, which underscores the importance of seeking out those resources and persons that within the Orthodox community are regarded as being reliable.

Actually, since you like Fr. Josiah Trenham, I would suggest you get in touch with him, and with Fr. Lawrence Farley, and a few other priests. He is accessible and is a fine gentleman. Using these priests, perhaps get recommendations on specific local parishes that are good at catechesis, and visit those. Ultimately you can’t truly know Orthodoxy without accumulating some liturgical hours in Orthodox parishes, just like you can’t know Aviation without accumulating some hours in a Cessna 150 or 152 or some other inexpensive to rent aircraft at a good flight school. And since the Orthodox churches tend to have midweek services and Vespers on Saturday night, one can do this without detracting from attendance at one’s primary church.

There's only three Orthodox churches in my area. Archimandrite Philip who's videos I watch and who I've corresponded with once, has videos of various services. I'd say he's the priest I'm most familiar with and comfortable with.

This latest 4 min message sums up why I enjoy listening to him:

https://www.youtube.com/@ArchimandritePhilip/videos

 

[The Liturgist]

What he's saying seems to be more in line with what Archbishop Puhalo says.

I’ve never heard of that YouTube channel. One thing you have to remember is that there are a lot of Orthodox Christians, and some of them exercise their freedom to express theological opinions provided they do not contradict the doctrine of the church as defined by the seven Ecumenical Councils, which is pretty easy to avoid, but nonetheless some of them do actually hold to beliefs that have been defined as heretical, for example, we have Dr. David Bentley Hart, a public intellectual and man of letters, whose book Atheist Delusions was a delightful riposte to the absurdity of Richard Dawkins and the other New Atheists, but who has since embraced Universalism, along with a few other misguided orthodox who misunderstand the concept of Apokatastasis and also insist that it must happen rather than that it might happen.

 

[The Liturgist]

There's only three Orthodox churches in my area. Archimandrite Philip who's videos I watch and who I've corresponded with once, has videos of various services. I'd say he's the priest I'm most familiar with and comfortable with.

Three is a lot. I know of places where there is only one Orthodox church, for example, St. George, Utah, or other places, for example, the Mojave River south of Boulder City, between the dam just above Laughlin, and Lake Havasu City, where the only Orthodox church, in Lake Havasu City, is an hour away from several populated cities.

That said Archimandrite Philip is part of a splendid monastery of the Antiochian Orthodox Church, which has a special place in my heart, and which in England has become the most popular Orthodox church for disaffected Anglicans, to the extent that they are nicknamed “Angliochian”,, not unlike the Conwertsy term used as a self-deprecating badge of humble identification by members of the OCA and ROCOR and certain other historically Slavic Orthodox churches, such as the Bulgarian Orthodox and Serbian Orthodox churches in America, and ACROD and the UOCNA, who are themselves converts, and not from a Church Slavonic-speaking Eastern Orthodox or Byzantine Catholic background.

 

[ozso]

I’ve never heard of that YouTube channel. One thing you have to remember is that there are a lot of Orthodox Christians, and some of them exercise their freedom to express theological opinions provided they do not contradict the doctrine of the church as defined by the seven Ecumenical Councils, which is pretty easy to avoid, but nonetheless some of them do actually hold to beliefs that have been defined as heretical, for example, we have Dr. David Bentley Hart, a public intellectual and man of letters, whose book Atheist Delusions was a delightful riposte to the absurdity of Richard Dawkins and the other New Atheists, but who has since embraced Universalism, along with a few other misguided orthodox who misunderstand the concept of Apokatastasis and also insist that it must happen rather than that it might happen.

I like listening to different views of a subject to get a more comprehensive grasp of it. I'm pretty familiar with universalism for instance and am familiar with the arguments for and against it. Along with DBH, there's an other EO PhD named Brad Jersak, who was mentored by Archbishop Lazar Puhalo whom he describes as looking like Gandalf. As much as I know about universalism and as much as I like Brad, I'm in the maybe camp regarding it. I lean more towards God's mercy being wide, rather than the idea that everyone will be saved. Although that would be nice. As far as hell goes I go with the C.S. Lewis description of the doors being locked from the inside, and if a bus bound for heaven made a stop in hell, no one there would want to climb aboard.