Purgatory And Prayers For The Dead.

[chevyontheriver]

Those links are for some unknown reason dead to me. Thanks for the effort though.

 

[chevyontheriver]

How so? Jesus literally knew everything. But I don't recall him employing fire hose teaching.

There were many things he had to explain afterwards, particularly some of his parables. While that may not be fire hose style, he often went over the heads of his listeners. Even speaking of being born again went over the head of Nicodemus, who needed an explanation. Christians today don't all seem to get it when Jesus didn't spell it out in painful remedial Aramaic. But the result has often been an enhanced curiosity as we stand in front of that hose until we quench our thirst for more understanding.

Another metaphor. You have heard it said about a river that it can be a mile wide and an inch deep. The Platte River is exactly like that. Christianity is a mile wide and a mile deep. Way more than we can neatly figure out. But we want to figure it out. We can't possibly figure out God. What we can do is seek God's face and then try to understand whatever we can.

 

[ozso]

Those links are for some unknown reason dead to me. Thanks for the effort though.

I'm sure if you type "Lazar Puhalo toll houses" into youtube they'll come up. Remember that's toll houses, not hoses.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Or from me, for that matter, although I like most programming languages aside from PHP, VisualBASIC, especially the pre .NET versions which offer no possibility of migration to a superior language, Pascal, due more to the limitations of it presently, and COBOL because compared to the other three programming languages of equivalent antiquity. namely, FORTRAN, ALGOL and Lisp, it is spectacularly outclassed, especially by Lisp, but Fortran was decent for the time and Algol helped inspire bcpl and PL/I which in turn led to Ken Thompson’s B, which led to Dennis Ritchie’s C, and the rest is history.

I liked Visual Basic; worked with Pl/I and COBOL (thought COBOL was way too verbose), and my pet hate is C and C++, not for their syntax but for their insane pointer laxity.

Purgatory surely is like being forced to write all your communications with God and other intelligent beings in COBOL. (I thought I needed to at least nod the head to the thread's topic).

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

At a minimum modifying it should require an ecumenical council. However, don’t feel bad; Canon XX is one of the most frequently ignored canons and the Roman Church is not the only one which is violating jt. However, it is the reason why the Eastern Orthodox service of Kneeling Vespers that follows the Divine Liturgy on Pentecost Sunday is a Vespers… (since that advances the liturgical day to Holy Spirit Monday which is the first day not covered by this canon).

I rarely kneel for prayer, being elderly and all, I am excused from any such expectation.

 

[The Liturgist]

I liked Visual Basic; worked with Pl/I and COBOL (thought COBOL was way too verbose), and my pet have is C and C++, not for their syntax but for their insane pointer laxity.

Purgatory surely is like being forced to write all your communications with God and other intelligent beings in COBOL. (I thought I needed to at least nod the head to the thread's topic).

Pointers are extremely useful for low level operating system programming and embedded programming. We need them because on embedded systems we do not have the memory or the CPU or the L3 cache to be passing around the contents of variables between functions. It is much more efficient to simply pass a pointer to the address of a variable.

This is also the secret to how arrays work in higher level interpreted languages, since the members of an array in C are efficiently accessed using pointer arithmetic, and high level languages simply put some window dressing over that, which is useful for improving the productivity of web developers and some application programmers, but as far as systems programming is concerned, which is what C and C++ are optimized for (which also makes C++ ideal for game development), one simply has to be careful to de-reference their pointers.

There are also some very nice derivatives of C and C++, like D, which feature optional garbage collection. Go and Rust also fall into this space. I am partial to D, as it was developed before Rust and a close personal friend of mine is heavily involved in the D programming language.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Compared to all that Purgatory is refreshingly clear, concise, and comforting.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Pointers are extremely useful for low level operating system programming and embedded programming. We need them because on embedded systems we do not have the memory or the CPU or the L3 cache to be passing around the contents of variables between functions. It is much more efficient to simply pass a pointer to the address of a variable.

This is also the secret to how arrays work in higher level interpreted languages, since the members of an array in C are efficiently accessed using pointer arithmetic, and high level languages simply put some window dressing over that, which is useful for improving the productivity of web developers and some application programmers, but as far as systems programming is concerned, which is what C and C++ are optimized for (which also makes C++ ideal for game development), one simply has to be careful to de-reference their pointers.

There are also some very nice derivatives of C and C++, like D, which feature optional garbage collection. Go and Rust also fall into this space. I am partial to D, as it was developed before Rust and a close personal friend of mine is heavily involved in the D programming language.

Careful or the wrath of Niklaus Wirth shall descend upon you, and you shall be forced to communicate exclusively in Pascal for your time in purgatory.

 

[prodromos]

The essay being referred to was written in the 1845 when Newman was still an Anglican.

Isn't that the year that Newman was received into the Catholic Church?

And it was an essay about what the Church had been doing for 2,000 years.

It was Newman's opinion, one that Catholics have enthusiastically taken on board

 

[ozso]

Compared to all that Purgatory is refreshingly clear, concise, and comforting.

I agree. So I'm glad I heard him debunk it. It's a complete 180 from all of the Orthodox soteriology I've heard.

 

[prodromos]

Father Josiah gets into the meat at 12:07

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Isn't that the year that Newman was received into the Catholic Church?

It was Newman's opinion, one that Catholics have enthusiastically taken on board

It is what happens, used to happen, and will happen in the future; doctrine and practise are modified by development of the ideas encapsulated within their original statement as new challenges arise, meaning of words evolves, and new situations as well as technologies arise. The Church has a hierarchy precisely to cater for changing times and cultures.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I agree. So I'm glad I heard him debunk it. It's a complete 180 from all of the Orthodox soteriology I've heard.

That may be a case of Orthodox development of doctrine, eh?

 

[The Liturgist]

Compared to all that Purgatory is refreshingly clear, concise, and comforting.

Yes, hence my belief that it was developed by 11th century Schoolmen as a watered-down alternative to the Orthodox doctrines more compatible with the legalistic nature of early Scholastic theology, before it acquired a more mystical dimension under the likes of the Mendicant Orders, the Carthusians and the Cistercian reform of Benedictine monasticism, and the theology of St. Thomas Aquinas, which for its faults does contain beauty.

I agree. So I'm glad I heard him debunk it. It's a complete 180 from all of the Orthodox soteriology I've heard.

Yes, unfortunately its also comprised of wishful thinking on Lazar Puhalo’s part, and ROCOR was right to depose him for preaching that nonsense.

There are two other Patristic models, one of which is similar to the Toll Houses model and one of which is quite different, but neither if them offer what Purgatory offers in terms of a simplistic legalism in which everyone is punished unless they obtain indulgences, a model similar to the universalism of the Assyrian Church of the East, except for the fact that the Assyrians basically made Hell into Purgatory, whereas with Purgatory you can still be damned.

The authentic Patristic models are more linked to the actual good news of the Gospel which is that we will be resurrected, and we might, through repentance, be able to live with God rather than seeking to hide from Him in the outer darkness like Adam and Eve, due to our shame or misotheism preventing us from being able to tolerate his presence, but the status of the deceased between now and the Last Judgement is one where those at risk of damnation can benefit from our intercessory prayer.

The Aerial Toll Houses model exists in two forms, one of which uses it as a metaphor for describing what I just outlined, and the other of which is a more hardline belief that these ideas are to be regarded as literal. There is a mass of Patristic evidence collected by the monks at St. Anthony’s Monastery in Florence, Arizona, under the leadership of Elder Ephrem, memory eternal who, along with his counterpart Abouna Mousa at the Coptic Orthodox Monastery of St. Anthony in Yermo, who is still with us, and who would advocate something like what I said in the preceding paragraph, without use of the metaphorical framework of Aerial Toll Houses as favored by Fr. Seraphim Rose, as the concept is unknown among the Oriental Orthodox as far as I am aware ( @dzheremi would know ), is one of the holiest men I have met.

I am convinced one of these three realities is the case, or perhaps we could say two, insofar as the approach of Fr. Seraphim Rose and ROCOR regards the toll houses as metaphors for the Patristic model, whereas the Athonite monk Elder Ephrem, a disciple of St. Joseph the Hesychast, whose skull I have been blessed to venerate in one of the more profound experiences of my life, believes that these represent the actual experience, but in either case, the Patristic reasons for why we pray for the dead, to improve their condition between now and the last judgement, and perhaps, depending on who you ask, their soteriological outcome, is maintained.

Purgatory basically waters this down by introducing a hitherto undocumented intermediate state of temporary torture, which is incompatible with God’s nature as perfect love and rather is related to the erroneous conception of God as being more interested in punishing evil than in forgiving people for it, and then having our prayers for the dead now be pursued with the objective of releasing people from this temporary state of torture, which can also be done through indulgences.

 

[The Liturgist]

That may be a case of Orthodox development of doctrine, eh?

No, rather, it is the example of a former Episcopi Vagante who was received into OCA, as a retired bishop, for reasons of spiritual mercy, so that he would have a pension and some canonical status as a bishop (since canonically, he was a defrocked deacon before the OCA received him) abusing the gift he was given by stirring up controversy with the more traditional canonical jurisdictions such as ROCOR and the churches of Serbia, Georgia, Ukraine, Belarus, Russia, Japan, North Macedonia and also the Athonite monasteries, and getting away with it because the OCA is somewhat more liberal than ROCOR.

Just so you know the person you are dealing with, this is the same retired bishop who Metropolitan Tikhon had to formally prohibit from discussing homosexuality under threat of being deposed (and losing his housing and pension), because HG Lazar kept falsely insisting that homosexuality was accepted by the early church, and promoting the LGBTQ+ agenda in the Orthodox church. He is lucky Metropolitan Tikhon and the Holy Synod of the OCA did not excommunicate him for such a grave offense; had he been a serving bishop he would likely have been degraded, deposed or forced to retire.

At any rate, the Orthodox Church has not, at the level of an ecumenical council, determined the ideal way of describing what is experienced by the soul post mortem, so this is not an area where doctrine can be developed. Rather, it is the province of theologoumemna, or theological opinions, but the prevailing opinions contradict what Bishop Lazar has said, in one way or another.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

a simplistic legalism in which everyone is punished unless they obtain indulgences

That, sir, is a nonsense.

III. The Final Purification, or Purgatory​

​

1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.​

​

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. 604 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. the tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire: 605​

​

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come. 606​

​

1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin." 607 From the beginning the Church has honoured the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God. 608 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:​

​

Let us help and commemorate them. If Job's sons were purified by their father's sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them. 609​

​

604 Cf. Council of Florence (1439): DS 1304; Council of Trent (1563): DS 1820; (1547): 1580; see also Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus (1336): DS 1000.​

605 Cf. 1 Cor 3:15; 1 Pet 1:7.​

606 St. Gregory the Great, Dial. 4, 39: PL 77, 396; cf. Mt 12:31.​

607 2 Macc 12:46.​

608 Cf. Council of Lyons II (1274): DS 856.​

609 St. John Chrysostom, Hom. in 1 Cor. 41, 5: PG 61, 361; cf. Job 1:5.​

---

[Catholic Encyclopaedia] Preliminary discussions brought out the main points of difference between the Greeks and the Latins, viz. the Procession of the Holy Spirit, the azymes, purgatory, and the primacy. During these preliminaries the zeal and good intentions of the Greek Emperor were evident. Serious discussion began apropos of the doctrine of purgatory. Cesarini and Turrecremata were the chief Latin speakers, the latter in particular engaging in a violent discussion with Marcus Eugenicus. Bessarion, speaking for the Greeks, made clear the divergency of opinion existing among the Greeks themselves on the question of purgatory. This stage of the discussion closed on 17 July, whereupon the council rested for a time, and the Greek Emperor took advantage of the respite to join eagerly in the pleasures of the chase with the Duke of Ferrara.
...
The reunion of the Churches was at last really in sight. When, therefore, at the request of the emperor, Eugene IV promised the Greeks the military and financial help of the Holy See as a consequence of the projected reconciliation, the Greeks declared (3 June, 1439) that they recognized the procession of the Holy Ghost from the Father and the Son as from one "principium" (arche) and from one cause (aitia). On 8 June, a final agreement was reached concerning this doctrine. The Latin teaching respecting the azymes and purgatory was also accepted by the Greeks. As to the primacy, they declared that they would grant the pope all the privileges he had before the schism. An amicable agreement was also reached regarding the form of consecration in the Mass (see EPIKLESIS). Almost simultaneously with these measures the Patriarch of Constantinople died, 10 June; not, however, before he had drawn up and signed a declaration in which he admitted the Filioque, purgatory, and the papal primacy. Nevertheless the reunion of the Churches was not yet an accomplished fact. The Greek representatives insisted that their aforesaid declarations were only their personal opinions; and as they stated that it was still necessary to obtain the assent of the Greek Church in synod assembled, seemingly insuperable difficulties threatened to annihilate all that had so far been achieved. On 6 July, however, the famous decree of union (Laetentur Coeli), the original which is still preserved in the Laurentian Library at Florence, was formally announced in the cathedral of that city. The council was over, as far as the Greeks were concerned, and they departed at once. The Latin members remained to promote the reunion with the other Eastern Churches--the Armenians (1439), the Jacobites of Syria (1442), the Mesopotamians, between the Tigris and the Euphrates (1444), the Chaldeans or Nestorians, and the Maronites of Cyprus (1445). This last was the concluding public act of the Council of Florence, the proceedings of which from 1443 onwards took place in the Lateran palace at Rome.

---

[Council of Trent] The Catholic Church, instructed by the Holy Spirit and in accordance with sacred Scripture and the ancient Tradition of the Fathers, has taught in the holy Councils and most recently in this ecumenical Council that there is a purgatory and that the souls detained there are helped by the acts of intercession (suffragia) of the faithful, and especially by the acceptable sacrifice of the altar.

Therefore this holy Council commands the bishops to strive diligently that the sound doctrine of purgatory, handed down by the Holy Fathers and the sacred Councils, be believed by the faithful and that it be adhered to, taught and preached everywhere.

But let the more difficult and subtle questions which do not make for edification and, for the most part, are not conducive to an increase of piety (cf. I Tim. 1:4), be excluded from the popular sermons to uneducated people. Likewise they should not permit opinions that are doubtful and tainted with error to be spread and exposed. As for those things that belong to the realm of curiosity or superstition, or smack of dishonorable gain, they should forbid them as scandalous and injurious to the faithful.

Related Canon 30 from the Council of Trent’s Decree on Justification (Sixth Sesssion, 1547)

30. If anyone says that after the grace of justification has been received the guilt is so remitted and the debt of eternal punishment so blotted out for any repentant sinner, that no debt of temporal punishment remains to be paid, either in this world or in the other, in purgatory, before access can be opened to the kingdom of heaven, anathema sit [“let him be anathema” or excommunicated].

 

[The Liturgist]

That, sir, is a nonsense.

III. The Final Purification, or Purgatory​

​

1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.​

​

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. 604 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. the tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire: 605​

​

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come. 606​

​

1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin." 607 From the beginning the Church has honoured the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God. 608 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:​

​

Let us help and commemorate them. If Job's sons were purified by their father's sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them. 609​

​

604 Cf. Council of Florence (1439): DS 1304; Council of Trent (1563): DS 1820; (1547): 1580; see also Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus (1336): DS 1000.​

605 Cf. 1 Cor 3:15; 1 Pet 1:7.​

606 St. Gregory the Great, Dial. 4, 39: PL 77, 396; cf. Mt 12:31.​

607 2 Macc 12:46.​

608 Cf. Council of Lyons II (1274): DS 856.​

609 St. John Chrysostom, Hom. in 1 Cor. 41, 5: PG 61, 361; cf. Job 1:5.​

Yes, that is purgatory, as it is now taught by the Roman Catholic Church. The RCC believes in the development of doctrine, and Purgatory is a doctrine which has developed,

In its present form, as described in the CCC, purgatory is actually close to the Patristic model, and could even be understood as a metaphor for describing it, in the same way Fr. Seraphim Rose viewed Aerial Toll Houses.

In its early form, however, purgatory was something different. Had a council before Trent reigned it in by prohibiting the sale of indulgences, the Protestant schism could have been avoided, but it is my view that Pope St. Pius V was the first Pope worthy of the office for many centuries, and the tragedy of the Counter-Reformation he initiated was that it was not initiated in time to prevent the Protestant schisms. Popes like Alexander VI, Julius II and Leo X had dismissed the Moravians and Waldensians as just another heretical movement like the Lollards or Albigensians or Bogomils, but this was a mistake, for these groups, particularly the Utraquists among the Moravians, who were burned at the stake for demanding what Vatican II made available, communion in both species, should have been viewed as an early warning of a large scale schism that would be enduring and have devastating consequences.

And the devastating consequences are not the continued existence of Lutherans or Anglicans or other traditional Protestants, but the proliferation of Radical Reformed and Restorationist denominations, each of which believes in a great apostasy and that they, through their subtly different interpretations of Scripture, have rediscovered the authentic teaching of the early church, and everyone else is wrong, denominations like the Adventists or the early Quakers or the Puritans or Christian Science or the Landmark Baptists or other such churches.

 

[ozso]

Yes, hence my belief that it was developed by 11th century Schoolmen as a watered-down alternative to the Orthodox doctrines more compatible with the legalistic nature of early Scholastic theology, before it acquired a more mystical dimension under the likes of the Mendicant Orders, the Carthusians and the Cistercian reform of Benedictine monasticism, and the theology of St. Thomas Aquinas, which for its faults does contain beauty.



Yes, unfortunately its also comprised of wishful thinking on Lazar Puhalo’s part, and ROCOR was right to depose him for preaching that nonsense.

There are two other Patristic models, one of which is similar to the Toll Houses model and one of which is quite different, but neither if them offer what Purgatory offers in terms of a simplistic legalism in which everyone is punished unless they obtain indulgences, a model similar to the universalism of the Assyrian Church of the East, except for the fact that the Assyrians basically made Hell into Purgatory, whereas with Purgatory you can still be damned.

The authentic Patristic models are more linked to the actual good news of the Gospel which is that we will be resurrected, and we might, through repentance, be able to live with God rather than seeking to hide from Him in the outer darkness like Adam and Eve, due to our shame or misotheism preventing us from being able to tolerate his presence, but the status of the deceased between now and the Last Judgement is one where those at risk of damnation can benefit from our intercessory prayer.

The Aerial Toll Houses model exists in two forms, one of which uses it as a metaphor for describing what I just outlined, and the other of which is a more hardline belief that these ideas are to be regarded as literal. There is a mass of Patristic evidence collected by the monks at St. Anthony’s Monastery in Florence, Arizona, under the leadership of Elder Ephrem, memory eternal who, along with his counterpart Abouna Mousa at the Coptic Orthodox Monastery of St. Anthony in Yermo, who is still with us, and who would advocate something like what I said in the preceding paragraph, without use of the metaphorical framework of Aerial Toll Houses as favored by Fr. Seraphim Rose, as the concept is unknown among the Oriental Orthodox as far as I am aware ( @dzheremi would know ), is one of the holiest men I have met.

I am convinced one of these three realities is the case, or perhaps we could say two, insofar as the approach of Fr. Seraphim Rose and ROCOR regards the toll houses as metaphors for the Patristic model, whereas the Athonite monk Elder Ephrem, a disciple of St. Joseph the Hesychast, whose skull I have been blessed to venerate in one of the more profound experiences of my life, believes that these represent the actual experience, but in either case, the Patristic reasons for why we pray for the dead, to improve their condition between now and the last judgement, and perhaps, depending on who you ask, their soteriological outcome, is maintained.

Purgatory basically waters this down by introducing a hitherto undocumented intermediate state of temporary torture, which is incompatible with God’s nature as perfect love and rather is related to the erroneous conception of God as being more interested in punishing evil than in forgiving people for it, and then having our prayers for the dead now be pursued with the objective of releasing people from this temporary state of torture, which can also be done through indulgences.

That seems to be all over the place with different versions of orthodoxy and all sorts of people saying different things. Maybe that's why xeno.of.athens referred to the Orthodox as 11th century Protestants. So far I've taken a liking to Orthodoxy. But if it teaches that Christians have to play some battle of wits with demons and will get dragged down into hell by one of them if they get it wrong, then my liking for Orthodoxy has gone sour.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

That seems to be all over the place with different versions of orthodoxy and all sorts of people saying different things. Maybe that's why xeno.of.athens referred to the Orthodox as 11th century Protestants. So far I've taken a liking to Orthodoxy. But if it teaches that Christians have to play some battle of wits with demons and will get dragged down into hell by one of them if they get it wrong, then my liking for Orthodoxy has gone sour.

I'd agree if that really is what Orthodoxies teach.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Yes, that is purgatory, as it is now taught

And what was taught by Trent too.
Honestly, you are far more convincing when writing about your own faith tradition than you are when venturing into my faith tradition.