Purgatory And Prayers For The Dead.

[Valletta]

I'd love to see a passage from the Psalms (or anywhere else in the OT) clearly showing prayer for the dead taking place.

Catechism of the Catholic Church
1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin." . . .
--------------------------------------------------------------

As to the Jewish practice:
El Maleh Rahamim is a plea that the soul of the departed be granted menuchah nechonah (proper rest), since the mere fact that a soul is in Gan Eden (Paradise) does not guarantee it complete contentment.

El Maleh Rahamim | My Jewish Learning

jewish,learning,judaism, El Maleh Rahamim, prayer of rememberance, Ashkenazi, menuchah nechonah, Ronald L. Eisenberg

www.myjewishlearning.com

 

[ozso]

Catechism of the Catholic Church
1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin." . . .
--------------------------------------------------------------

As to the Jewish practice:
El Maleh Rahamim is a plea that the soul of the departed be granted menuchah nechonah (proper rest), since the mere fact that a soul is in Gan Eden (Paradise) does not guarantee it complete contentment.

El Maleh Rahamim | My Jewish Learning

jewish,learning,judaism, El Maleh Rahamim, prayer of rememberance, Ashkenazi, menuchah nechonah, Ronald L. Eisenberg

www.myjewishlearning.com

Like I said, I'd love to see a passage from the Psalms (or anywhere else in the OT) clearly showing prayer for the dead taking place.

 

[Lukaris]

I'd love to see a passage from the Psalms (or anywhere else in the OT) clearly showing prayer for the dead taking place.

Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.

Psalm 23:4

I understand passages like this of a personal living prayer, a prayer for another living person or a prayer for a departed person. In light of Matthew 22:32, it applies in each case.

 

[Valletta]

Like I said, I'd love to see a passage from the Psalms (or anywhere else in the OT) clearly showing prayer for the dead taking place.

That's a quote from the OT. I know Protestants dropped Macc, and how much dropping the teachings on purgatory or prayers for the dead had to to with it I do not know, but the books were kept within the bindings of the King James Bible by the reformers because of their historical value. Those books were eventually deleted from versions of the King James in the 1800s. As you can see, Jews retain the practice to this day.

 

[Jipsah]

Even those would be better than making up stories about a place that is totally contrary to God's word .... in so many different areas.

So you've been told many times I'm sure. I suspect that has more to do with your opinion on the matter than anything in the Bible.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

As to teachings that are officially declared, yes those have changed before and after the schism. And will continue to be changed as we reach a fuller and fuller understanding of God's Word. Some things, like prayers for the dead, have indeed been practiced since OT times.

The Apostles didn't have a full understanding of their faith?
We know better than them now?

@Valetta is correct when it is understood that "change" is by means of development and not by abandonment or substitution of one belief with a new one. @prodromos seems to have read Valetta's statement incorrectly; the reaction is a malapropism.

 

[Jipsah]

It feels like you don't have any consideration for the person you're replying to and you're just using me a sounding board.

Give it a rest, mate. the Liturgist is a teacher, and he's gonna teach. Get me started on programming languages and you'll get the same effect from me. Some subject don't lend themselves well to simple answers. That's just how things work.

If you don't like his stuff, don't read it. I have a few people on ignore myself, mostly people who I consider militantly ignorant. I don't have to read their offensive rubbish, and I'm freed from the temptation to answer fools according to their folly.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

The amount of Orthodox blood spilled by Western Christians is shocking, and if it were not for the Fourth Crusade, the Byzantine Empire probably could have survived. There is also the issue of all of our icons and relics that were stolen, mostly by Venice and other Italian states - frustraringly, only portions of the relics of St. Mark have been returned to Alexandria.

Blood was spilled in "Latin" Constantinople in riots that were winked at by the emperor and his army; the 4th crusade was a kind of punitive venture as pay back. Both actions are reprehensible. One must see the faults of the past and seek not to repeat them and not to make them an excuse for new faults in the present.

 

[prodromos]

@Valetta is correct when it is understood that "change" is by means of development and not by abandonment or substitution of one belief with a new one. @prodromos seems to have read Valetta's statement incorrectly; the reaction is a malapropism.

There is no "development of doctrine" in the Church, only defense of the teachings once handed down by the Apostles. Valetta is not correct except in presenting the erroneous teaching of Rome.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

There is no "development of doctrine"

That's an essentially untenable position to put forward and it is not worth discussion.

 

[prodromos]

Blood was spilled in "Latin" Constantinople in riots that were winked at by the emperor and his army; the 4th crusade was a kind of punitive venture as pay back. Both actions are reprehensible. One must see the faults of the past and seek not to repeat them and not to make them an excuse for new faults in the present.

I've looked into the Latin massacre. Were you aware that there were four Latin quarters in Constantinople controlled by the Venetians, the Pisans, the Almafians and one other whose name escapes me. These four groups had a stranglehold on all trade but were also constantly attacking each other, not unlike the modern mafia families each trying to control as much of the trade as they could. Local frustration with this 'mafia' control is what led to the attacks on these Latins, which unfortunately spilled over into attacking anyone and anything associated with the Latins as a whole. I believe this is when the Doge of Venice was blinded, and it was his hatred and desire for revenge against the Byzantines which led to the Sack of Constantinople.

 

[prodromos]

That's an essentially untenable position to put forward and it is not worth discussion.

Nonsense. The seven Ecumenical Councils are where the teaching of the Church was clearly defined in defense against heresy. There was no new doctrine defined.

Development of Doctrine is the hypothesis put forward by John Henry Newman in 1909 in order to justify the Latin innovations

 

[ozso]

Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.

Psalm 23:4

I don't see how in any way whatsoever David's prayer for himself while alive has anything to do with him praying for other people who have died.

I understand passages like this of a personal living prayer, a prayer for another living person or a prayer for a departed person. In light of Matthew 22:32, it applies in each case.

But there's no instruction for praying for the departed anywhere in or around that passage either. Are those the most solid proof texts available?

 

[ozso]

That's a quote from the OT. I know Protestants dropped Macc, and how much dropping the teachings on purgatory or prayers for the dead had to to with it I do not know, but the books were kept within the bindings of the King James Bible by the reformers because of their historical value. Those books were eventually deleted from versions of the King James in the 1800s.

I didn't see Maccabees mentioned in that article. Although I'm familiar with 2 Maccabees 15:11-12, if that's what's being appealed to.

11 He armed each of them not so much with confidence in shields and spears as with the inspiration of brave words, and he cheered them all by relating a dream, a sort of vision,[a] which was worthy of belief.

12 What he saw was this: Oni′as, who had been high priest, a noble and good man, of modest bearing and gentle manner, one who spoke fittingly and had been trained from childhood in all that belongs to excellence, was praying with outstretched hands for the whole body of the Jews.

a. 2 Maccabees 15:11 The Greek text here is uncertain

As you can see, Jews retain the practice to this day.

Apparently the earliest dating of the El Maleh Rachamim prayer is 1626. אל מלא רחמים – ויקיפדיה

 

[ozso]

I figured that's what The Liturgist was talking about. I've come across the subject being discussed in The Ancient Way section. I know that the theologian Archbishop Lazar Puhalo was defrocked for speaking against the doctrine, but he later recanted.

Or perhaps not. "It exalts the power of demons, and degrades the power of Jesus Christ" @1:35

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Development of Doctrine is the hypothesis put forward by John Henry Newman in 1909 in order to justify the Latin innovations

That is not correct.

 

[ozso]

Give it a rest, mate. the Liturgist is a teacher, and he's gonna teach. Get me started on programming languages and you'll get the same effect from me. Some subject don't lend themselves well to simple answers. That's just how things work.

If you don't like his stuff, don't read it. I have a few people on ignore myself, mostly people who I consider militantly ignorant. I don't have to read their offensive rubbish, and I'm freed from the temptation to answer fools according to their folly.

As if you don't critique others all the time like you're doing here

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

As if you don't critique others all the time like you're doing here.

@Jipsah offers a great deal of wit and humour in his posts; I appreciate them very much.

 

[ozso]

That is not correct.

Could you please elaborate as to how/why it's not correct?

 

[ozso]

@Jipsah offers a great deal of wit and humour in his posts; I appreciate them very much.

Me too. That's why Jipsah has been on my follow list for a long time. Along with The Liturgist.