Purgatory And Prayers For The Dead.

[Always in His Presence]

Sorry, but I was quite busy Monday and Tuesday and could not reply.

I consider that 2 Tim 1:16-18 makes most sense if we understand that Onesiphorus had died and Paul prays for his family, AND THEN prays for him. Granted you may not expect to see that, and thus not be able to see it. But I do think it reflects longstanding Jewish practice to pray for the dead, this being a brief example of it.

16 May the Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me; he was not ashamed of my chains, 17 but when he arrived in Rome he searched for me eagerly and found me-- 18 may the Lord grant him to find mercy from the Lord on that Day--and you well know all the service he rendered at Ephesus. RSVCE

Not if read contextually:

2 Tim 1:15 This you know, that all those in Asia have turned away from me, among whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes. 16 The Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain; 17 but when he arrived in Rome, he sought me out very zealously and found me. 18 The Lord grant to him that he may find mercy from the Lord in that Day—and you know very well how many ways he ministered to me at Ephesus.​

​

Paul is sharing with Timothy how everyone in Asia turned away from him. He mentions first Phygellus and Hermogenes - then Onesiphorus. Paul is not saying that he or anyone died, but is mentioning what he did for him before he turned away from Paul. That is plain and simple. Paul specifically speak. The Day (capitalized) is the judgement day.

Additionally, this is not a prayer.

There is zero reference to Paul praying for him. There is zero reference that the man had died.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

for he often refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain; 17 but when he arrived in Rome, he sought me out very zealously and found me.

Carefully couched in the past tense, it does seem as if he may be departed, not only from Rome but also from earthly life, hence the short prayer for his happiness at the last judgement.

The Lord grant to him that he may find mercy from the Lord in that Day

This we pray for our beloved who are departed from earthly life.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

These, brother, are the commandments in my bible:

I) I am the Lord thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt not have strange gods in my sight. Thou shalt not make to thy self a graven thing, nor the likeness of any things, that are in heaven above, or that are in the earth beneath, or that abide in the waters under the earth. Thou shalt not adore them, and thou shalt not serve them. For I am the Lord thy God, a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon their children unto the third and fourth generation, to them that hate me, And shewing mercy unto many thousands, to them that love me, and keep my commandments.​

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II) Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain: for he shall not be unpunished that taketh his name upon a vain thing.​

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III) Observe the day of the sabbath, to sanctify it, as the Lord thy God hath commanded thee. Six days shalt thou labour, and shalt do all thy works. The seventh is the day of the sabbath, that is, the rest of the Lord thy God. Thou shalt not do any work therein, thou nor thy son nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant nor thy maidservant, nor thy ox, nor thy ass, nor any of thy beasts, nor the stranger that is within thy gates: that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest, even as thyself. Remember that thou also didst serve in Egypt, and the Lord thy God brought thee out from thence with a strong hand, and a stretched out arm. Therefore hath he commanded thee that thou shouldst observe the sabbath day.​

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IV) Honour thy father and mother, as the Lord thy God hath commanded thee, that thou mayst live a long time, and it may be well with thee in the land, which the Lord thy God will give thee.​

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V) Thou shalt not kill.​

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VI) Neither shalt thou commit adultery.​

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VII) And thou shalt not steal.​

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VIII) Neither shalt thou bear false witness against thy neighbour.​

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IX) Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife:​

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X) nor his house, nor his field, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is his.​

(Deuteronomy 5:6-21 DRB)

Don't feed the trolls; soon as you do, they start multiplying.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Not if read contextually:

2 Tim 1:15 This you know, that all those in Asia have turned away from me, among whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes. 16 The Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain; 17 but when he arrived in Rome, he sought me out very zealously and found me. 18 The Lord grant to him that he may find mercy from the Lord in that Day—and you know very well how many ways he ministered to me at Ephesus.​

​

Paul is sharing with Timothy how everyone in Asia turned away from him.

Yes. That's the context.

He mentions first Phygellus and Hermogenes - then Onesiphorus.

Yes. Two different sorts of people.

Paul is not saying that he or anyone died, but is mentioning what he did for him before he turned away from Paul.

Paul is mentioning what Onesiphorus did for him, then praying for his family. Paul could have said he was praying for Onesiphorus AND family, but didn't say that. He separates out the family of Onesiphorus from Onesiphorus himself. He prays for the family and then later for Onesiphorus.

You seem to be implying that Onesiphorus dumped Paul like Phygellus and Hermogenes did. Are you implying that Onesiphorus did that as well?

That is plain and simple. Paul specifically speak. The Day (capitalized) is the judgement day.

The 'Day' may be capitalized in your Bible but that is a later interpretation beyond the actual text.

Additionally, this is not a prayer.

Perhaps not in your tradition.

There is zero reference to Paul praying for him. There is zero reference that the man had died.

You can't see what you are already sure is not the case. You have a great deal of certitude on the matter.

 

[Always in His Presence]

Carefully couched in the past tense, it does seem as if he may be departed, not only from Rome but also from earthly life, hence the short prayer for his happiness at the last judgement.

This we pray for our beloved who are departed from earthly life.

I fully understand what you are stating - I completely disagree - thank you for your response.

 

[Always in His Presence]

You can't see what you are already sure is not the case. You have a great deal of certitude on the matter.

Because I read it contextually - not adding nor taking anything away. The subject being spoken of is the people who abandoned Paul - there is no break in thought.

You seem to be implying that Onesiphorus dumped Paul like Phygellus and Hermogenes did. Are you implying that Onesiphorus did that as well?

I am only quoting Paul's writing and pointing out what he plainly stated.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Because I read it contextually - not adding nor taking anything away. The subject being spoken of is the people who abandoned Paul - there is no break in thought.

I am only quoting Paul's writing and pointing out what he plainly stated.

So your view is that Onesiphorus abandoned Paul like the other two. I’m wondering if that is the general theological consensus here in CF or if it’s just your view because you can’t have prayers for the dead in the NT?

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I am trying to see where the commandment is in the above. Perhaps you could explain?

He may have mistaken the prologue for a commandment.

 

[tampasteve]

ADMIN HAT ON
This thread has had a cleaning, please do not flame one another and please remember that ALL Christian denominations are considered Christians here, saying otherwise is against the rules.
ADMIN HAT OFF

 

[Always in His Presence]

So your view is that Onesiphorus abandoned Paul like the other two. I’m wondering if that is the general theological consensus here in CF or if it’s just your view because you can’t have prayers for the dead in the NT?

I don't represent CF as a whole when is comes to theological consensus - CF has members and staff from many denominations and theological stances.

My view on Onesiphorus is that he abandoned Paul, because Paul said EVERYBODY in Asia abandoned him, then spoke of three individuals. Contextually it is clear.

I didn't say we can't have prayers for the dead in the NT - I said there are no prayers for the dead in the NT, not by instruction nor example.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Don't feed the trolls; soon as you do, they start multiplying.

Looks like some posts are gone, and one poster perhaps.

I don't represent CF as a whole when is comes to theological consensus - CF has members and staff from many denominations and theological stances.

My view on Onesiphorus is that he abandoned Paul, because Paul said EVERYBODY in Asia abandoned him, then spoke of three individuals. Contextually it is clear.

I didn't say we can't have prayers for the dead in the NT - I said there are no prayers for the dead in the NT, not by instruction nor example.

Onesiphorus appears to be singled out as one who didn't abandon saint Paul.
And he appears to be deceased from what saint Paul says later in the letter

Salute Prisca, and Aquila and the household of Onesiphorus. ​

(2 Timothy 4:19 DRB)

 

[chevyontheriver]

I don't represent CF as a whole when is comes to theological consensus - CF has members and staff from many denominations and theological stances.

I’m just wondering if you are an outlier in your opinion here. I think you are. Now we are taught that I can have my truth and you can have your truth, a teaching I am not fond of. I am gently trying to say you are wrong about Onesiphorus abandoning Paul. I was hoping someone else might chime in on that.

My view on Onesiphorus is that he abandoned Paul, because Paul said EVERYBODY in Asia abandoned him, then spoke of three individuals. Contextually it is clear.

No. Not this time.

I didn't say we can't have prayers for the dead in the NT - I said there are no prayers for the dead in the NT, not by instruction nor example.

And I maintain that separating the family of Onesiphorus from Onesiphorus leads to a reasonable likelihood that Onesiphorus has died. Paul prayed for the family, said a few more words about Onesiphorus, then prayed for him. He could have done that whether or not Onesiphorus abandoned him. This looks like a NT prayer for the dead. Not a surprise considering earlier and later Jewish practice.

 

[Always in His Presence]

I’m just wondering if you are an outlier in your opinion here. I think you are. Now we are taught that I can have my truth and you can have your truth, a teaching I am not fond of. I am gently trying to say you are wrong about Onesiphorus abandoning Paul. I was hoping someone else might chime in on that.

I am an outlier to that extent of the majority of posters are Roman Catholic or Orthodox and believe similarly.

From the millions of like faith globally, I am in company with established norms. I hold a Master's of Divinity and teach theology and other courses in Europe and the Middle East. We have a global student body of 21,000 yearly.

And I maintain that separating the family of Onesiphorus from Onesiphorus leads to a reasonable likelihood that Onesiphorus has died. Paul prayed for the family, said a few more words about Onesiphorus, then prayed for him. He could have done that whether or not Onesiphorus abandoned him. This looks like a NT prayer for the dead. Not a surprise considering earlier and later Jewish practice.

That is we’re we disagree completely. Paul’s prayers are plain he introduces them as Prayers.

Eph 1:15. Therefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, 16 do not cease to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers:

Eph 3:14For this reason I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 from whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, 16 that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might through His Spirit in the inner man, 17 that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith….

Phil 1:3 I thank my God upon every remembrance of you, 4 always in every prayer of mine making request for you all with joy,

Col 1:10 9 For this reason we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;

 

[chevyontheriver]

I am an outlier to that extent of the majority of posters are Roman Catholic or Orthodox and believe similarly.

So you think Catholics and the Orthodox differ from you in thinking Onesiphorus didn’t abandon Paul? And that all good non-Catholic non-Orthodox Christians agree with you that Onesiphorus abandoned Paul?

From the millions of like faith globally, I am in company with established norms. I hold a Master's of Divinity and teach theology and other courses in Europe and the Middle East. We have a global student body of 21,000 yearly.

Established norms that Onesiphorus abandoned Paul?

That is we’re we disagree completely. Paul’s prayers are plain he introduces them as Prayers.

Eph 1:15. Therefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, 16 do not cease to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers:

Eph 3:14For this reason I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 from whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, 16 that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might through His Spirit in the inner man, 17 that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith….

Phil 1:3 I thank my God upon every remembrance of you, 4 always in every prayer of mine making request for you all with joy,

Col 1:10 9 For this reason we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;

You can disagree with me if you think you have to. Teaching 21,000 students a year and all. I’m a bit player compared to that. Dismissible. Paul prayed for Onesiphorus’ family, and a moment later for him. You can’t see it because it just doesn’t fit your frame of reference.

 

[FredVB]

We do not really understand what there is in the afterlife before experiencing it, so we are not qualified to pray for any of those who already passed on. Prayer is sensible about the things we do know about.

 

[Always in His Presence]

So you think Catholics and the Orthodox differ from you in thinking Onesiphorus didn’t abandon Paul? And that all good non-Catholic non-Orthodox Christians agree with you that Onesiphorus abandoned Paul?

Im just quoting the Scripture and adding nothing to it. I also only speak for myself.

Established norms that Onesiphorus abandoned Paul?

established norms in reading literal events contextually

You can disagree with me if you think you have to.

I dont ‘think’ I have to disagree with you. I my study of the verses I come to a different conclusion than you and that is the disagreement.

Teaching 21,000 students a year and all. I’m a bit player compared to that. Dismissible.

your insight and opinion is just as valuable as anyone else’s including my own. I was addressing the outlier query and trying to express my view is far from outlier IRL

Paul prayed for Onesiphorus’ family, and a moment later for him. You can’t see it because it just doesn’t fit your frame of reference.

And you see it because it does fit your frame of reference.

where do we go from here?

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Im just quoting the Scripture and adding nothing to it. I also only speak for myself.

May I quote scripture too?

In the following passage the Lord Jesus Christ indicates that not only do the dead hear prayers but they also converse about the prayers that they hear.

And it came to pass that the beggar died and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom. And the rich man also died: and he was buried in hell. And lifting up his eyes when he was in torments, he saw Abraham afar off and Lazarus in his bosom: And he cried and said: Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water to cool my tongue: for I am tormented in this flame. And Abraham said to him: Son, remember that thou didst receive good things in thy lifetime, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted and thou art tormented. And besides all this, between us and you, there is fixed a great chaos: so that they who would pass from hence to you cannot, nor from thence come hither. And he said: Then, father, I beseech thee that thou wouldst send him to my father's house, for I have five brethren, That he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torments. And Abraham said to him: They have Moses and the prophets. Let them hear them. But he said: No, father Abraham: but if one went to them from the dead, they will do penance. And he said to him: If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they believe, if one rise again from the dead.​

(Luke 16:22-31 DRB)

 

[Always in His Presence]

May I quote scripture too?

In the following passage the Lord Jesus Christ indicates that not only do the dead hear prayers but they also converse about the prayers that they hear.

And it came to pass that the beggar died and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom. And the rich man also died: and he was buried in hell. And lifting up his eyes when he was in torments, he saw Abraham afar off and Lazarus in his bosom: And he cried and said: Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water to cool my tongue: for I am tormented in this flame. And Abraham said to him: Son, remember that thou didst receive good things in thy lifetime, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted and thou art tormented. And besides all this, between us and you, there is fixed a great chaos: so that they who would pass from hence to you cannot, nor from thence come hither. And he said: Then, father, I beseech thee that thou wouldst send him to my father's house, for I have five brethren, That he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torments. And Abraham said to him: They have Moses and the prophets. Let them hear them. But he said: No, father Abraham: but if one went to them from the dead, they will do penance. And he said to him: If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they believe, if one rise again from the dead.​

(Luke 16:22-31 DRB)

It is a parable, not a literal event. In fact it is the second parable in the chapter.

 

[RileyG]

We do not really understand what there is in the afterlife before experiencing it, so we are not qualified to pray for any of those who already passed on. Prayer is sensible about the things we do know about.

Why pray at all then if we do not know the outcome of certain situations that will happen in this life?

Blessings

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

It is a parable, not a literal event. In fact it is the second parable in the chapter.

Some evangelicals insist that it is a history, you say a parable, I say it does not matter because it is the teaching of Christ that the dead do hear prayers.