Prove your case biblically that believers can willfully sin and still be saved while doing so.

[Kaon]

I believe all form of lying is wrong. But you would have to prove your case biblically in another thread that this is not so. I am aware of story of Rahab, and have discussed that issue before. But that is another topic of discussion for another thread. Revelation 21:8 says all liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire. Does it mention anything about how other kinds of lying is okay? Well, please lets stick to the topic at hand. If you believe that a saint can intentionally set out to sin and be saved while doing so, then please bring forth at least 10 verses or 10 points with Scripture to prove your case. Thank you.

We are the ones that turn absolutes of the Most High God into conditions.

We know what a lie is; just because circumstances work in our favor when we lie (or even seemingly according to God's will) doesn't mean it isn't a sin. Did the Most High God tell Rebecca, Rahab, Abraham or Jacob to lie? Or, did they do it on their own - purposefully and intentionally?

As I said, since we (humans) pick what we follow, and make conditions of absolutes, you will get a range of arguments that support a range of alleged sins. Denomination can make a saint of anyone, and that same saint can be a demon of another denomination.

 

[Kaon]

I believe all form of lying is wrong. But you would have to prove your case biblically in another thread that this is not so. I am aware of story of Rahab, and have discussed that issue before. But t hat is another topic of discussion for another thread. Revelation 21:8 says all liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire. Does it mention anything about how other kinds of lying is okay? Well, please lets stick to the topic at hand. If you believe that a saint can intentionally set out to sin and be saved while doing so, then please bring forth at least 10 verses or 10 points with Scripture to prove your case. Thank you.

Let's start with basics:

What laws of the Most High God are we supposed to follow, in your opinion. This will refine the evidence that would please you most.

 

[Hammster]

Thanks for posting the verses, Hammster.
I will try to address these verses at a later date.
I am taking a break for a little while.

Blessings to you in the Lord.

No problem.

I have more.

Furthermore, we had earthly fathers to discipline us, and we respected them; shall we not much rather be subject to the Father of spirits, and live?
— Hebrews 12:9

Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow.
— James 1:17

Pure and undefiled religion in the sight of our God and Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained by the world.
— James 1:27

With it we bless our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in the likeness of God;
— James 3:9

My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;
— 1 John 2:1

For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!”
— Romans 8:15

Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
— 1 Corinthians 1:3

 

[Bible Highlighter]

We are the ones that turn absolutes of the Most High God into conditions.

We know what a lie is; just because circumstances work in our favor when we lie (or even seemingly according to God's will) doesn't mean it isn't a sin. Did the Most High God tell Rebecca, Rahab, Abraham or Jacob to lie? Or, did they do it on their own - purposefully and intentionally?

As I said, since we (humans) pick what we follow, and make conditions of absolutes, you will get a range of arguments that support a range of alleged sins. Denomination can make a saint of anyone, and that same saint can be a demon of another denomination.

Well, there are sins that the Bible is very clear in the fact that they can lead to spiritual death if they are not confessed or forsaken. However, this thread is not about me trying to prove or defend anything (although I can do that after you made your case for OSAS or a sin and still be saved type belief). This thread is about the person who believes they can sin and still be saved to prove their belief with 10 verses or more (that such a thing is so). That is the topic of discussion.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Let's start with basics:

What laws of the Most High God are we supposed to follow, in your opinion. This will refine the evidence that would please you most.

This is not a defensive thread where I need to prove anything. It is a thread where you are on the offensive for a change, whereby you prove that a believer can set out to intentionally sin with the thinking they are saved. Please provide 10 or more verses please, and no copying and pasting from any websites please.

Thank you.

 

[Hammster]

Well, there are sins that the Bible is very clear in the fact that they can lead to spiritual death if they are not confessed or forsaken. However, this thread is not about me trying to prove or defend anything, but it is about the person who believes they can sin and still be saved to prove their belief with 10 verses or more (that such a thing is so). That is the topic of discussion.

I haven’t read through this thread. Mine was a blind post. And I’m not sure if we’ve interacted with each other before. So let me ask this so that I’ll be able to respond better when you address my posts.

Are you of the opinion that a believer will be sinless? Or just that they will keep a short account of their sins?

 

[Kaon]

Well, there are sins that the Bible is very clear in the fact that they can lead to spiritual death if they are not confessed or forsaken. However, this thread is not about me trying to prove or defend anything, but it is about the person who believes they can sin and still be saved to prove their belief with 10 verses or more (that such a thing is so). That is the topic of discussion.

"...but it is about the person who believes they can sin and still be saved to prove their belief with 10 verses or more (that such a thing is so)."

Well, I would also like to see this with one verse even.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Prove your case biblically that believers can willfully sin and still be saved while doing so.

Honestly there are no verses that say "sin and be saved". It is quite the opposite. That being said, scripture speaks of Jesus Christ of Nazareth as the propitiation for our sins.
1 John 2:2 "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."

This verse has a very inclusive meaning. We should take heed in what our Lord did for humanity.
Blessings

 

[Kaon]

This is not a defensive thread where I need to prove anything. It is a thread where you are on the offensive for a change, whereby you prove that a believer can set out to intentionally sin with the thinking they are saved. Please provide 10 or more verses please, and no copying and pasting from any websites.

There is no place in the canon, Apocrypha or Gnostics that supports this, but I would be open to seeing an argument.

I can't possibly think of a place where intentional, unrepentant sin will lead to salvation.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Four, you did not provide any Scriptural backing or explanation for what you said. You just stated it as if it was fact without any proof from the Bible.

Since the post you were responding to referred to scripture (without the handicap verse numbers) and you did not recognize them, it means you do not recognize all scripture when it is quoted.

This reduces your credibility in my eyes. FYI.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Read my signature (that is at the bottom of each of my posts).

Your response to Luke 16:16 implies you cannot make the distinction, thus must be more specific.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

There is no place in the canon, Apocrypha or Gnostics that supports this, but I would be open to seeing an argument.

I can't possibly think of a place where intentional, unrepentant sin will lead to salvation.

Can a believer die in any kind of unconfessed grievous sin (like murder, hate, theft, adultery, etc.) with the thinking they are saved (Whether it be intentional or not)?

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Sorry, you are not making any sense;
John was preaching a burden in 1 John 2:3-4?

Scripture becomes burdensome when they are emphasized without skill. There is no balance in your interpretive method. It focuses on specific themed verses and does it's best to reduce vision of the passages that refute your thesis. When scripture is referred to you respond by saying scripture was not quoted ... therefore you have failed to convince me.

 

[JIMINZ]

Can a believer die in any kind of unconfessed grievous sin (like murder, hate, theft, adultery, etc.) with the thinking they are saved (Whether it be intentional or not)?

I am asking this question in order to gain some sort of clarification on what you are calling SIN.

How is it determined what is, and what is not sin, is there any one definitive verse which, describes just what sin actually is, and thereby allowing me an opportunity to answer your OP with hopefully 10 or more verses.

If I or others here do not understand how and why you are defining some action as sin, then how do we know what is to be defended?

So just what is it that determines what is considered to be sin.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Since the post you were responding to referred to scripture (without the handicap verse numbers) and you did not recognize them, it means you do not recognize all scripture when it is quoted.

This reduces your credibility in my eyes. FYI.

First, I am more than aware of Scriptural references, dear sir. When I quickly glance at a post and I do not see actual verse reference numbers, I am going to skip past that post because 9 times out of 10 that person is not quoting Scripture. But even if this was the case for you, I think it is only fair that you would want to quote Scripture to help others to read the verses for themselves in the Bible.

Second, I also did not read people's longer posts as a general rule if I do not see any Scripture references because I come here to discuss the Bible and not the thoughts of men.

Three, it is implied in my OP that you should provide verses because I am asking for you to make a biblical case for the idea that a believer can sin and still be saved. I am now going to update my OP to say that a person needs to put forth a verse number in order to participate in the thread topic. I shouldn't have to tell you that, it is implied by my words in the OP; However, I am going to update my OP to include this criteria (Just in case there may be others who may think as you do).

Please take note that two other people have properly participated correctly without any special instructions. All I ask is you to participate in the thread topic of discussion as it was originally intended when I started it from the beginning.

Thank you, and may God bless you.

 

[Kaon]

Can a believer die in any kind of unconfessed grievous sin (like murder, hate, theft, adultery, etc.) with the thinking they are saved (Whether it be intentional or not)?

I can judge people based on their fruits (i.e. if you walk and talk like a sinner, and think like a sinner, and know you sin without repenting, then you are a unrepentant sinner). But, I do not know what will happen after death.

Someone could clinically die, live two lifetimes in a fraction of a second, and then show the Most High God even more of who s/he is. That mercy is up to the Father. We have no idea how intricate life and death - and in between are, precisely because we think we do.

 

[Neogaia777]

Obviously God has the last word---go ahead and try to argue with Him. The verse doesn't say anything other than:
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

If you want to try and see how far you can string God along---be my guest.

Just as long as were clear that God has the last word and not any other human being including me, you, or anyone on here, then, were good I think.

But then why do so many not seem to think that though? And all too many actually rather blatantly show they do not, ect? Is my question, ect?

God Bless!

 

[Gregory Thompson]

First, I am more than aware of Scriptural references, dear sir. When I quickly glance at a post and I do not see actual verse reference numbers, I am going to skip past that post because 9 times out of 10 that person is not quoting Scripture. But even if this was the case for you, I think it is only fair that you would want to quote Scripture to help others to read the verses for themselves in the Bible.

Second, I also did not read people's longer posts as a general rule if I do not see any Scripture references because I come here to discuss the Bible and not the thoughts of men.

Three, it is implied in my OP that you should provide verses because I am asking for you to make a biblical case for the idea that a believer can sin and still be saved. I am now going to update my OP to say that a person needs to put forth a verse number in order to participate in the thread topic. I shouldn't have to tell you that, it is implied by my words in the OP; However, I am going to update my OP to include this criteria (Just in case there may be others who may think as you do).

Please take note that two other people have properly participated correctly without any special instructions. All I ask is you to participate in the thread topic of discussion as it was originally intended when I started it from the beginning.

Thank you, and may God bless you.

Very well.

Since your post is long and does not contain scripture, I will not read it either, measuring it back and so forth.

 

[Neogaia777]

Me either.

Ditto...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I can judge people based on their fruits (i.e. if you walk and talk like a sinner, and think like a sinner, and know you sin without repenting, then you are a unrepentant sinner). But, I do not know what will happen after death.

Someone could clinically die, live two lifetimes in a fraction of a second, and then show the Most High God even more of who s/he is. That mercy is up to the Father. We have no idea how intricate life and death - and in between are, precisely because we think we do.

In Acts of the Apostles 5:1-11: Ananias and Sapphira died for lying to the Holy Ghost and a great fear fell upon the church. The emotion of fear does not make any sense if they were:

(a) Never saved.
(b) They were secure in their salvation.​

The emotion of fear by the church only makes sense is if they could also be judged by God and condemned at death themselves in a similar manner by a some other kind of sin. For why else are we told to work out our salvation with fear and trembling? (Philippians 2:12). I mean, why all the trembling if Philippians 2:12 is not talking about fear? Anyways, your missing the point of the thread, my friend. If you believe that a saint can abide in unconfessed sin on some level (whether done intentionally or not) and still be saved while committing that sin, then please prove your case with 10 or more verses in the Bible.