Prove your case biblically that believers can willfully sin and still be saved while doing so.

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IMPORTANT NOTE:

"Please read the thread rules below so as to participate properly in this thread topic."

Prove your case biblically that believers can willfully sin and still be saved while doing so.

Popular Christianity teaches that Christians can abide in unconfessed sin and still be saved while committing such sin (on some level) by having a belief alone on Jesus. It is my challenge to those who believe this way to put forth verses and or passages that lead you to believe this kind of belief.

Rules for Participating in the Thread Topic:

Rule #1:

Please no copying of any websites to make your case biblically. Please read the Bible yourself and post your own verses to prove your case.

Rule #2.

Please keep in mind that I am allowed to critique a person's statements on their view of Soteriology, and I will allow some debate, but a person has to first put forth their case with the Bible for why they think they can willfully commit sin and be saved while doing so (before they can offer any kind of debate).

Rule #3.

Please no posting of just one or two verses. Please provide at least 10 or more verses to show that a believer can intentionally set out to sin again with the thinking they are saved while doing so.

Rule #4.

Please provide Scripture references; Both the chapter number, and verse numbers. No mention of just a book of the Bible in general, or a quote of Scripture without any kind of verse number involved. Any post without a verse number will be skipped over based on the assumption that you did not reference Scripture. I will not make time to read the musings of men's opinions to see if you are referring to Scripture or not. I need to see actual verses numbers please.

Rule #5.

Please, do no debate, discuss, or ask questions until you provided at least 10 verses to prove your case biblically that a believer can sin and still be saved.

Thank you.
 
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Bible Highlighter

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Matthew 7:6.

All of God's Word is holy. So I believe Matthew 7:6 is in reference to atheists or agnostics who despise God's Word and do not even accept it. For unbelieving Gentiles were referred to as dogs. So I do not believe your quoting of Matthew 7:6 really has nothing to do with why you are not presenting your case for your view of Soteriology. I am aware of the Eternal Security position or the "Sin and Still Be Saved" position for quite a long time now. I have heard all the verses and excuses before. You would not really be telling me anything new. I only challenge you and others because I believe you and others are incapable of defending your position.

I can easily look on the internet again for proof texts for your belief, but I would rather have you prove your own belief with Scripture (so as to show that your belief on this matter does not really have any real kind of foundation at all).

Also, you have to remember that you are not only talking to me, but others who can read this thread later, too. So even if I did not accept your message, there are others who may hear it. So to provide no answer is to simply show the inadequacy of Eternal Security or a "Sin and Still Be Saved" type belief to begin with. If you show no answer, it simply means there is no real biblical case you can make for your view of salvation.

So the ball is back in your court.
 
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Acts2:38

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I tell you what. I'll give you a straight answer here if you give me a straight answer here - When Is The Last Time You Sinned?

What? That's not how this works. You came HERE, to THIS persons thread.

Also, your thread of that "Westminster" is to be balked at. He doesnt realize one important key phrase that this poster stated
Popular Christianity teaches that Christians can abide in unconfessed sin and still be saved

Westminster misses this point
 
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A_Thinker

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I am aware of the Eternal Security position or the "Sin and Still Be Saved" position for quite a long time now. I have heard all the verses and excuses before. You would not really be telling me anything new. I only challenge you and others because I believe you and others are incapable of defending your position.
That's kind of prideful, isn't it ?

You have heard ALL of the biblical support for any other position than your own ? You don't believe that there is anything new anyone can bring to you on this subject ?

Have you confessed this sin of pride ???
 
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Tree of Life

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What? That's not how this works. You came HERE, to THIS persons thread.

Jason and I have a history of going back and forth on this.

Also, your thread of that "Westminster" is to be balked at. He doesnt realize one important key phrase that this poster stated


Westminster misses this point

People who say that you can't sin and still be saved never want to answer the question "when's the last time you sinned?" Why is that?
 
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lismore

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Popular Christianity teaches that Christians can abide in unconfessed sin and still be saved while committing such sin (on some level) by having a belief alone on Jesus.

“None is righteous, no, not one" Rom 3:10.

Persons with unconfessed sin- that covers every single person on planet earth, including yourself. That is why we are saved by Grace. God Bless :)
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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Paul sums it up pretty comprehensively in the book of Galatians.
The church is made up of genuine believers and hypocrites. Each conduct themselves in exactly the same way so as not to be able to tell them apart. This is the basis of Jesus' parable about the wheat and the tares.
(I got interrupted in the middle of the post)
Hypocrites do and say everything totally right in front of others. They can pray, attend church, talk the talk, preach the true gospel, and even be leaders of the church, and to all appearances they can appear the same as any genuine believer. But to find out what they really are, one can ask those family members - wife, parent, child about what they are really like at home. Often, hypocrites are 'angelic' at church, and 'demonic' at home.

But we cannot witch-hunt to separate out the 'tares' because we cannot know the heart of a person and often innocent, genuine believers are falsely accused and harmed by this process. This is why there is a day of judgment to come where the angels will separate those who are genuine believers with true hearts before God to the right, and the hypocritical 'goats' to the right.

I think that we will get some surprises and even shocks on that day when the hearts of people are finally revealed for what they are.

This is why I believe that it is the religious hypocrite - the false professing Christian is the one who will fall away when problems or persecution arises or when good leaders try to correct and discipline them.
 
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Prove your case biblically that believers can willfully sin and still be saved while doing so.

Popular Christianity teaches that Christians can abide in unconfessed sin and still be saved while committing such sin (on some level) by having a belief alone on Jesus. It is my challenge to those who believe this way to put forth verses and or passages that lead you to believe this kind of belief.

I don’t believe Scripture ever takes that approach, frankly. Paul taught that where "sin abounded, grace abounded all the more". Scripture doesn’t teach "Sin, so grace may abound!" but it DOES teach that grace abounds!

Paul also has a terse reply to those who slander believers in the gospel of grace:

"And why not do evil that good may come?"—as some people slanderously charge us with saying. Their condemnation is just."—Romans 3:8
 
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SkyWriting

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Prove your case biblically that believers can willfully sin and still be saved while doing so.

Popular Christianity teaches that Christians can abide in unconfessed sin and still be saved while committing such sin (on some level) by having a belief alone on Jesus. It is my challenge to those who believe this way to put forth verses and or passages that lead you to believe this kind of belief.

A new, baby Christian is saved when calling on Jesus as Lord.
They have not yet been scolded by experienced Christians
on the long and extensive list of 1000's of sins in their lives.
Yet they are still saved.

Ephesians 2
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Romans 10
9 Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Acts 16:31
And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

Acts 2:38
And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Mark 16:16
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
 
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JIMINZ

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Prove your case biblically that believers can willfully sin and still be saved while doing so.

Popular Christianity teaches that Christians can abide in unconfessed sin and still be saved while committing such sin (on some level) by having a belief alone on Jesus. It is my challenge to those who believe this way to put forth verses and or passages that lead you to believe this kind of belief.

I may regret this but I'm going to say it anyway.

You have begun your thread by proposing a question by which Believers are asked to defend a false premise.

1 John 3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

It's all a matter of knowing just where it is you stand "IN JESUS CHRIST"
 
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SkyWriting

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A new, baby Christian is saved when calling on Jesus as Lord.
They have not yet been scolded by experienced Christians
on the long and extensive list of 1000's of sins in their lives.
Yet they are still saved.

Ephesians 2
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Romans 10
9 Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Acts 16:31
And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

Acts 2:38
And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Mark 16:16
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

No response yet?

John 5
24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

Ephesians 2
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

John 8
31 So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed in him, “If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

John 10
28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish,
and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
 
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SkyWriting

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Prove your case biblically that believers can willfully sin and still be saved while doing so.

New Christians have not heard of your complaints
about their "nasty" lifestyle: clothing, tattoos,
touching yourself, eating meat on Friday, etc.
Yet they are saved.
 
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SkyWriting

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Prove your case biblically that believers can willfully sin and still be saved while doing so.
Popular Christianity teaches that Christians can abide in unconfessed sin and still be saved while committing such sin (on some level) by having a belief alone on Jesus. It is my challenge to those who believe this way to put forth verses and or passages that lead you to believe this kind of belief.

I have been abiding with my second wife for 18 years and have yet to confess that it is a sin. Yet I am saved.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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Prove your case biblically

Lu 11:46 And he said, Woe unto you also, ye lawyers! for ye lade men with burdens grievous to be borne, and ye yourselves touch not the burdens with one of your fingers.
 
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Bible Highlighter

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I don’t believe Scripture ever takes that approach, frankly. Paul taught that where "sin abounded, grace abounded all the more". Scripture doesn’t teach "Sin, so grace may abound!" but it DOES teach that grace abounds!

You have to confess and forsake sin in order to have mercy (See Proverbs 28:13, 1 John 1:9, 1 John 1:7). One unconfessed grievous sin (like lying, lusting, hating, etc.) can condemn a believer. Ananias and Sapphira is one example (Acts of the Apostles 5:1-11). For a great fear of God came upon the church when they died for having lied to the Holy Ghost. The emotion of fear (by believers) makes no sense if they were never saved and neither would such an emotion make sense if they were secure in their salvation. For if you believe future sin is forgiven you, then why work out your salvation with fear and trembling as per Philippians 2:12? I mean, why all the trembling if Philippians 2:12 is not talking about fear?

As for Romans 5:20:
Well, while Romans 5:20 says grace abounds, you also have to read Romans 5:21 that says grace reigns (rules) through righteousness (righteous living).

The grace of God teaches us to deny ungodliness, and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world (Titus 2:11-12).

Ephesians 5:25-27 says that the reason or purpose Christ died for us was so to sanctify and cleanse us with the washing of the water of the Word (Scripture) so that He may present to Himself a church that is holy and without blemish.

You said:
Paul also has a terse reply to those who slander believers in the gospel of grace:

"And why not do evil that good may come?"—as some people slanderously charge us with saying. Their condemnation is just."—Romans 3:8

Sorry, things are not as you say. The condemnation of a person who believes salvation is: "God's Grace Through Faith + Works of Faith" in the fact that they are following Jesus (or His commands as a part of eternal life) is NOT the context.

The context is to the Jew and or trying to be justified by the whole of the 613 laws of the Law of Moses (without God's grace through faith) because Paul was fighting against "Circumcision Salvationism." How so?

Romans 3:1 says,
"What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?"

"Circumcision Salvationism" (i.e. Law Alone Salvationism without God's grace) was a heretical belief at the time that basically said that a man of God had to first be circumcised in order to be initially and ultimately saved. It was a false belief that was pushed by a certain sect of Jews who were trying to deceive some Christians into being justified by the Old Law (without God's grace through faith being the entrance gate and ultimate way we are saved). This was a heresy that was clearly addressed at the Jerusalem council (See Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, Acts of the Apostles 15:24).

Paul also addressed this problem; Paul said to the Galatians that if you seek to be circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing (Galatians 5:2), and then Paul mentions how if you seek to be justified by the Law, you have fallen from grace (Galatians 5:4). This "law" is the Torah because circumcision is not a part of the commands given to us by Jesus and His followers. In fact, even under the Old Covenant (before the cross), the requirement of circumcision did not even work in this way. Romans 4:9-12 says that Abraham was justified by faith (belief) in God before he was circumcised. So these Jews were trying to deceive Christians into being circumcised got the order all wrong. They were trying to make salvation all about the Law Alone without God's grace as the entrance gate and foundation of one's faith.

So the context of Romans 3:8 that says, "And why not do evil that good may come?"—as some people slanderously charge us with saying. Their condemnation is just" are not Christians like me who believe we must believe the words of Jesus in Luke 10:25-28 (whereby Jesus agrees with the lawyer on the truth that we must love GOD and love our neighbor as a part of inheriting eternal life), but the context is "Circumcision Salvationism" (Which is alluded to in Romans 3:1).

The problem with saying future sin is forgiven a person is that:

#1. The Bible never teaches clearly that future sin is forgiven a person.
#2. Various verses teach that believers still have sin that needs to be forgiven (Like 1 John 1:9, etc.). For if future sin is forgiven you, then how can one confess of sin in order to be forgiven of sin? It makes no sense.
#3. It turns God's grace into a license for immorality (Jude 1:4). For how do you even explain Jude 1:4? Do you just like not think about Jude 1:4? What about 2 Peter 2:1, and 2 Peter 2:14? It says that there were false prophets who could not cease from sin. The Eternal Security Proponent or the Sin and Still Be Saved Type Believer tells me that they can never overcome grievous sin (like lying, lusting, hating, etc.) in this life and that they will always occasionally stumble into sin. Yet, how do they explain 2 Peter 2:1, and 2 Peter 2:14? Do they just ignore such verses? Do they re-interpret them because they do not like what they say? If their belief is to be true, they must do so. They must alter or ignore Scripture verses like these in order to make their belief that says that they can sin and still be saved work.​

For if you believe that a saint can die in unconfessed grievous sin (like lying, lusting, hating, etc.) and still be saved, and you also believe that you will always fall into some kind of sin (Which is the OSAS song of many) my claim towards the OSAS Proponent belief is not slanderous in any way but it is merely the truth. For they are saying they can sin on some small level again and still be saved. I have heard it time and time again.

Now, if you believe (like one of my close friends) who thinks that in order for OSAS to be true, one cannot justify even one grievous sin, but they must confess and forsake it, then that would be different. But even this kind of belief is wrong because it doubts the promise of GOD (that you are truly forgiven when you come to the Lord), and it doubts the warnings that a servant of the Lord can fall away.

Side Note:

Please take note that I am aware that there are those who do not believe in OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved) and yet they also believe they can sin and still be saved on some level. Free Will Baptists would be one example of this. Some believe you can only sin a little bit on occasion as long as one strives to live a holy life (Whatever that means) and others believe you can sin as much as you like and still be saved. I have talked with believers who thought they could mow down a crowd with sub machine gun and they would still be saved while doing so all because they have a belief on Jesus. George Sodini was a huge proponent of Eternal Security or OSAS and he wrote in his suicide letter that he would be saved despite his mass murder and the taking of his own life. That's the problem I have with this kind of belief. It turns God's grace into a license for immorality as per Jude 1:4. There are different levels of justifying sin and evil. To say to a person their future sin is forgiven them and then tell them nothing about how they must live holy can create yet another potential George Sodini.

To read up on George, check out this article here:

George Sodini.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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Prove your case biblically that believers can willfully sin and still be saved while doing so.

Popular Christianity teaches that Christians can abide in unconfessed sin and still be saved while committing such sin (on some level) by having a belief alone on Jesus. It is my challenge to those who believe this way to put forth verses and or passages that lead you to believe this kind of belief.

This implies that Christians who are born again by the Holy Spirit can be not saved based on sins committed while in this body.

The passage that comes to mind is the following.

Mt 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

If the writer of this post is concerned about sinning, they may wish to repent for placing a number of people God has redeemed in the hell of their mind.

Very similar to in the Old Testament when false testimony is brought up to punish the innocent: The person who gave false testimony is then given the punishment that would have been given to the victim of said false testimony.

So in this way, how you judge others, and measure them, this will also be measured back to you and you will be judged in the same way. This is written out of concern due to the parable of the unmerciful servant who had his debt forgiven but would not forgive debts of others.

Heed the teachings of Christ, and do not increase your burden unnecessarily.
 
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Lu 11:46 And he said, Woe unto you also, ye lawyers! for ye lade men with burdens grievous to be borne, and ye yourselves touch not the burdens with one of your fingers.

This is ripping the verse out of its context. Try reading at verse 37 on down. You will notice that Jesus is also condemning their man made traditions. Jesus also calls them hypocrites. Nothing is stated here about how their obedience to God's laws as a part of salvation is condemned here. Jesus actually agreed with the lawyer on the truth that one must love God and love their neighbor as a part of inheriting eternal life (Luke 10:25-28). Jesus said to the rich young ruler that if he will enter into life, keep the commandments (See Matthew 19:17-19).
 
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