Prove your case biblically that believers can willfully sin and still be saved while doing so.

[Hammster]

I bolded the words that are a part of the conditions involved in having eternal life. He who hears the words of the Lord Jesus is a part of having eternal life. So we have to follow the teachings of Jesus in order to have eternal life. For 1 John 2:4 says that the person who says they know the Lord and they do not keep His commandments (i.e. hears his Word), they are a liar and the truth (i.e. Jesus is the Truth - John 14:6) is not in them. No man can be saved without abiding in Jesus (who is the source of Truth). For 1 John 5:12 says that he that has the Son has life, and he that does not have the Son, does not have life.

Now you are just making stuff up. You are equating hearing with following. While there’s a relationship, they aren’t the same. Jesus said His sheep will hear and follow. It’s impossible for them not to.

Let’s keep our categories straight.

 

[Hammster]

I again bolded the word that are a part of the context here. For the context of the kind of sheep that cannot be snatched out of the Lord's hand is the kind of sheep that FOLLOW Jesus. That is what it says in verse 27. So this is not a mere belief alone where a person sins (Which is the polar opposite of not following Jesus). Following Jesus would include walking after the life that He lived and not justifying the idea that we can sin and still be saved.

That’s not what it says, but I understand why you’d read it through a synergistic lens. The sheep will follow. That’s what he’s saying. And being His sheep is the cause of hearing and believing, not the effect. That’s why there’s a contrast in v 26

But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
— John 10:26

Not being His sheep is the cause for their disbelief, not the other way around.

 

[Hammster]

However, we learn that God’s grace is not a license for immorality (i.e. That we can sin and still be saved), though. For if you were to skip back to the previous chapter, you would read that God’s grace teaches us to deny ungodliness, and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world. Titus 2:14 says, “Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.” If you were to skip back to chapter 1, you would learn that Paul says that a person can deny God by a lack of works (Titus 1:16). But we know that just doing good works is not going to cut it with Jesus if they are also working iniquity or sin (See Matthew 7:23).

You can’t read it backwards. If you read it as Paul wrote it, it will clear up a lot of confusion.

 

[Hammster]

This again is in reference to “Initial Salvation” because Paul says that Abraham was saved first by having a belief in God before he was circumcised (See Romans 4:9-12). Also, there is a difference between: “Works of Earning Money (Works Alone Salvationism)” vs. “Works of Responsibility in Owning a Free Gift.”

I can’t really deal with your arguments that make this false distinction of “initial salvation”. That’s not found in scripture.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

In rebuttal to your statement about the verse.

Php. 2:12
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Your assumption of the Philippians verse is that they were fearful because of what had happened to Ananias and Sapphira this could not be further from the truth, the fact of the matter in this verse from Paul to the Philippians is, he clearly says why they should "Work Out their Salvation with Fear and Trembling"

He clearly says, I am going away, and I will not be here to spoon feed you, you will have to do it on your own.

Again, this is off topic to the discussion of the thread. You need to first provide a list of at least 10 verses that first proves that a believer can sin and still be saved before we can open up a debate or proper discussion. The purpose of this thread is for you to go on the offensive for a change in proving your view of Soteriology is correct. If you don't want to play ball and stick to the topic of the thread, that is your choice.

 

[Hammster]

The removed word tells us that we have to walk not after the flesh (sin), but after the Spirit in Christ Jesus so as not to be under the Condemnation.

There’s no removed words. The manuscripts that the KJV translators had were incorrect.

 

[Hammster]

I am not sure what this has to do with proving a sin and still be saved type belief. The point of this verse is to walk uprightly with God helping us to keep us from stumbling into sin.


Anyways, speaking of Jude: Jude 1:4 says that there are those who turn God’s grace into a license for immorality. Surely if this was something that was bad by those who were not believers, then we cannot have such a belief, as well. So Jude 1:4 is basically saying we cannot say that we can sin and still be saved (i.e. turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness).

Jude 1:4 is obviously talking about those professing to be saved.

But to address your point about the reference, God is able to keep us. So my plea to you is to trust in His promises, and not your feeble works.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Right ... because physical death in and of itself, frightens noone.

So then, Aanias had no reason to fear Saul ... but. he did ...

To stay on topic: Please provide a list of at least 10 verses to prove that a believer can sin and still be saved. If you do so, then we can have a continued dialogue or debate (if I feel it is worth any kind of rebuttal).

Thank you, and may God bless you this evening.

 

[A_Thinker]

I can’t really deal with your arguments that make this false distinction of “initial salvation”. That’s not found in scripture.

Correct ... it's not scriptural ...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Correct ... it's not scriptural ...

Just saying so does not make it so. Titus 3:5 says that we are saved by the regeneration of the Holy Ghost. Last I remember, the regeneration is talking about a one time event and not a continued thing through our lives. So yes, it is Scriptural that we can get initially saved.

Anyways, you are off topic, my friend. You can only engage in debate or discussion if you first provide a list of at least 10 verses to prove that a believer can sin and still be saved. So far you have not done that to meet the criteria of staying on topic with this thread. Please. I encourage you to be the offensive (for a change) and give us Scriptural points that defends your view of Soteriology.

Thank you;
And may God bless you.

 

[Hammster]

Just saying so does not make it so. Titus 3:5 says that we are saved by the regeneration of the Holy Ghost. Last I remember, the regeneration is talking about a one time event and not a continued thing through our lives. So yes, it is Scriptural that we can get initially saved.

Let’s look at some more and see if Paul addresses this.

He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. This is a trustworthy statement; and concerning these things I want you to speak confidently, so that those who have believed God will be careful to engage in good deeds. These things are good and profitable for men.
— Titus 3:5-8

Yep.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Let’s look at some more and see if Paul addresses this.

He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. This is a trustworthy statement; and concerning these things I want you to speak confidently, so that those who have believed God will be careful to engage in good deeds. These things are good and profitable for men.
— Titus 3:5-8

Yep.

We have to look at the whole counsel of God's Word (Acts of the Apostles 20:27). Being justified by His grace includes being justified by the vehicle of faith, too.

Romans 3:25 says we are justified by grace, but this would also include being justified by faith without the deeds of the Law (i.e. the Law of Moses), - Romans 3:28.

James says we are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24).
For James says he will show his faith by his works (James 2:18).

James is clearly talking about a different kind of work than the works Paul is talking about (when Paul condemns salvation by works or the Law). In James chapter 2: James is talking about the works of Sanctification via the Spirit working in us. In Ephesians 2, Galatians 3, Romans 3, Romans 4, and Titus 3: Paul is talking about external works of man that a person tries to do to save themselves that does not include God's grace. Romans 3:1 asks the questions: "What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?" Circumcision is something of the Old Law and not the New Law. This is what Paul was fighting against. Circumcision Salvationism. He is saying we are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace through faith and not of Works Alone Salvationism via the heresy of Circumcision Salvationism that was being pushed during that time period. Galatians 5:2 says if you seek to be circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.

This heresy of Circumcision Salvationism (and going back to the Old Law) is clearly described to us in the following verses at the Jerusalem Council. For...

Acts of the Apostles 15:1 says,

"And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved."​

Acts of the Apostles 15:5 says,

"But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses."​

Acts of the Apostles 15:24 says,

"Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment"​

In other words, Paul was against "Law Alone Salvationism" (without God's grace) by going back to the Old Law that is no more. Paul was not referring to the commands of Jesus Christ (Which were new teachings) under the New Covenant (Which officially began at Christ's death). For the Scriptures say that the Law has changed (Hebrews 7:12).

However, Paul was not speaking out against all forms of law or God's commands in relation to salvation (Especially the teachings of Jesus); For Paul says if any man does not agree with the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4). James says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble (James 4:6).

 

[Hammster]

We have to look at the whole counsel of God's Word. Being justified by His grace includes being justified by the vehicle of faith, too.

Romans 3:25 says we are justified by grace, but this would also include being justified by faith without the deeds of the Law (i.e. the Law of Moses), - Romans 3:28.

James says we are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24).
For James says he will show his faith by his works (James 2:18).

James is clearly talking about a different kind of work than the works Paul is talking about. James is talking about the works of Sanctification via the Spirit working in us. Paul is talking about external works of man that a person tries to do to save themselves that does not include God's grace. Romans 3:1 asks the questions: "What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?" Circumcision is something of the Old Law and not the New Law. This is what Paul was fighting against. Circumcision Salvationism. He is saying we are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace through faith and not of Works Alone Salvationism via the heresy of Circumcision Salvationism that was being pushed during that time period. Galatians 5:2 says if you seek to be circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.

The heresy of Circumcision Salvationism (and going back to the Old Law) is clearly described to us in the following verses at the Jerusalem Council. For...

Acts of the Apostles 15:1 says,

"And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved."​

Acts of the Apostles 15:5 says,

"But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses."​

Acts of the Apostles 15:24 says,

"Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment"​

Paul was not referring to the commands of Jesus Christ (Which were new teachings).

For Paul says if any man does not agree with the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4). James says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble (James 4:6).

I’m sorry, but this is typical of synergists. I give an argument, and instead of addressing the text in question (which was asked for) we end up with a carpet bombing of texts with no context.

I was hoping for higher level of discussion than this.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I’m sorry, but this is typical of synergists. I give an argument, and instead of addressing the text in question (which was asked for) we end up with a carpet bombing of texts with no context.

I was hoping for higher level of discussion than this.

Well, I believe the Bible breathes as a cohesive whole. I can only give you what God reveals to me according to His Word. Personally, I do not feel the verses I presented (5 quick chapter references to express a point, and 14 verses) are all that many. In fact, I did address all 10 verses you gave me. Also, the verses I propose stand true in what they say, as well. You either can explain them in how they work in your belief, or you can choose to not explain them. The ball is in your court.

In either case, we can (of course) respectfully agree to disagree in love (and move on), but that is your choice, friend.

In any event, may God bless you this fine evening;
And may you please be well.

 

[Hammster]

Well, I believe the Bible breathes as a cohesive whole. I can only give you what God reveals to me according to His Word. Personally, I do not feel the verses I presented (5 quick chapter references to express a point, and 14 verses) are all that many. In fact, I did address all 10 verses you gave me. Also, the verses I propose stand true in what they say, as well. You either can explain them in how they work in your belief, or you can choose to not explain them. The ball is in your court.

In either case, we can (of course) respectfully agree to disagree in love (and move on), but that is your choice, friend.

In any event, may God bless you this fine evening;
And may you please be well.

You can’t address scripture by ignoring it. You can’t take verses out of context to address a text in context.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You can’t address scripture by ignoring it. You can’t take verses out of context to address a text in context.

I can say the same thing but the proof is in the pudding of what the text actually says. We also have to look at the whole counsel of God's Word, as well.

For example: You quoted Titus 3:5, but it should be read alongside Titus 1:16, Titus 2:11-12, and Titus 2:14 to get a balanced understanding. By reading these other verses and accepting them for what they say plainly, one will conclude that Titus 3:5 is not teaching that God's grace teaches that we can sin and still be saved. On the contrary, we learn that Titus 2:11-12 says that God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world. So this means that Titus 3:5 has to align with this truth expressed in Titus 2:11-12.

Furthermore, Titus 3:5 does not explicitly say one can sin and still be saved, either. Titus 3:5 can easily be read in reference to 'Initial Salvation" because it refers to "regeneration" (Which is a one time event for a believer). So one is not saved by works of righteousness that they have done when they first come to the Lord but they are saved by his mercy, and by the regeneration and washing of the Holy Ghost.

I mean, just read this:

3 "For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.
4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;"
(Titus 3:3-5).​

Verse 3 says that we ourselves WERE (past tense) sometimes foolish, disobedient, etc.

Verse 4, but AFTER the kindness of God our Savior appeared toward man.

Verse 5 then moves through the timeline after the Savior appears, whereby He saves us by His mercy and by the regeneration of the Holy Spirit.

Verses 3-4 describe a series of events lead up to salvation to accepting the Lord and His mercy and regeneration (Which we see in verse 5).

Verses 3-5 is talking about how they got saved. Titus 3:5 is not referring to "Continued Salvation" or "Sanctification" after they were saved.

We are justified by His grace in the fact that our past sin is forgiven. That's it. That is what it is talking about in Titus 3:5. This act of salvation is not by works of righteousness that we have done. But Titus 3:5 is not an exhaustive truth on all aspects of salvation. Even Glorification is another aspect of salvation that is not mentioned here.

 

[Hammster]

I can say the same thing but the proof is in the pudding of what the text actually says. We also have to look at the whole counsel of God's Word, as well.

For example: You quoted Titus 3:5, but it should be read alongside Titus 1:16, Titus 2:11-12, and Titus 2:14 to get a balanced understanding. By reading these other verses and accepting them for what they say plainly, one will conclude that Titus 3:5 is not teaching that God's grace teaches that we can sin and still be saved. On the contrary, we learn that Titus 2:11-12 says that God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world. So this means that Titus 3:5 has to align with this truth expressed in Titus 2:11-12.

Furthermore, Titus 3:5 does not explicitly say one can sin and still be saved, either. Titus 3:5 can easily be read in reference to 'Initial Salvation" because it refers to "regeneration" (Which is a one time event for a believer). So one is not saved by works of righteousness that they have done when they first come to the Lord but they are saved by his mercy, and by the regeneration and washing of the Holy Ghost.

I mean, just read this:

3 "For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.
4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;"
(Titus 3:3-5).​

Verse 3 says that we ourselves WERE (past tense) sometimes foolish, disobedient, etc.

Verse 4, but AFTER the kindness of God our Savior appeared toward man.

Verse 5 then moves through the timeline after the Savior appears, whereby He saves us by His mercy and by the regeneration of the Holy Spirit.

Verses 3-4 describe a series of events lead up to salvation to accepting the Lord and His mercy and regeneration (Which we see in verse 5).

I’ve given scripture that shows your view to be in error. I’d suggest you do some study on the law/gospel distinctive. I’m sure you are sincere, but you are sincerely preaching a false gospel.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I’ve given scripture that shows your view to be in error. I’d suggest you do some study on the law/gospel distinctive. I’m sure you are sincere, but you are sincerely preaching a false gospel.

I made my case with Scripture. It is up to you to refute the points I made with Scripture. In other words, please explain the verses I brought forth in how you think they support your view and not my view.

Thank you; And may God bless you.

 

[Neogaia777]

I guess I posted for nothing.

Ditto...

 

[Neogaia777]

I’m sorry, but this is typical of synergists. I give an argument, and instead of addressing the text in question (which was asked for) we end up with a carpet bombing of texts with no context.

I was hoping for higher level of discussion than this.

Ditto...

 

[JIMINZ]

Remember I said you were asking Believers to defend a False Premise, well this is the reason why.

You need to first prove that a believer can sin and still be saved before we can open up a debate or proper discussion.

Now you know good and well there are no such verses in all of Scripture, but these are.

Rom 6:1,2
1) What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2) God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

These as well.

1 Jn. 3:6
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

1Jn 3:8 ,9
8) He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9) Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Now lookie here what I found for you, why it's the verse where John has already Determined for us what SIN is.....Are you ready??

1 Jn. 3:4
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Now, let me show you something which I am sure, from the way you have Titled this Thread, you have never seen before.

Rom 8:3,4
3) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4) That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Rom. 7:4
Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Did you get that,
#1 Jesus Destroyed SIN in the Flesh,
#2 we no longer walk in the Flesh but in the Spirit, if it be that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you,
#3 We are Dead to the Law

Rom. 8:11
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

So what we see from Scripture is.
1) Sin is the transgression of the law.
2) Jesus came to destroy Sin, as well as Sin in the Flesh.
3) The Righteousness of Law is Fulfilled in us.
4) We (Believers) are DEAD to the FLESH.
5) We (Believers) are ALIVE (In) The Holy Spirit.
6) We (Believers) are Dead to Sin.
7) We (Believers) are Dead to the Law
8) We (Believers) Cannot commit Sin because, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7

Your false Premise is, Believers can still sin, which has just been refuted so. here is my last verse for you.

Rom. 6:7
For he that is dead is freed from sin.

 

[A_Thinker]

Last I remember, the regeneration is talking about a one time event and not a continued thing through our lives. So yes, it is Scriptural that we can get initially saved.

It's analogous to saying that you can be "initially" born. What makes any event an "initial" event ... is the fact that there will be additional subsequent events, which is neither the case with physical birth, ... or spiritual rebirth. It's a one-time event, as you have expressed yourself.

But I understand that you don't really want to talk about that ...