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Prove your case biblically that believers can willfully sin and still be saved while doing so.

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Bible Highlighter, Jul 22, 2019.

  1. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git! Supporter

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    QFT.....................
     
  2. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    Okay. You mean, I take it, that you only want to hear from members who do believe that a person can sin at will and still be saved. I know that there isn't any such Biblical proof, so I will exit.
     
  3. Resha Caner

    Resha Caner Expert Fool

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    To be honest, 25000 posts in 5 years makes you look more like a troll, not less. You're averaging almost 14 posts a day. Another characteristic of trolls is a refusal to answer questions. Engaging people in conversation will go much further than your approach.

    Do you treat people like this face to face? Walk up to them, ask a question, demand they answer, dismiss everything they say, and then lecture them with a prepared answer indicating you never really wanted to hear their answer in the first place?
     
  4. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Sorry. First, one verse or two is not going to cut it (Note: I will re-clarify this in the OP). Please make a case with a good number of verses in Scripture that proves that a believer can sin and still be saved.

    Second, for your info., the KJV says "offend" and not "stumble." The KJV has been around for hundreds of years long before the Modern Translations have shown up. But if you believe that James 3:2 expresses a particular truth that we stumble in many ways, there should be several other witnesses that expresses this truth in the New Testament to back up what you are saying.

    Three, the context of James 3:2 is about speaking (or our words). So "offend" is in reference to how we can offend with our words.

    1. If any man offend not in word (James 3:2).
    2. Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. (James 3:5).
    3. The tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell (James 3:6).
    4. But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison (James 3:8).
    5. Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be. (James 3:10).
     
  5. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Thank you for the false slander. May all glory be unto the Lord Jesus Christ.
    Again, you are off topic. Please see the OP. I kindly ask you to stay on topic please and not attack me (the poster).

    To stay on topic you need to:

    1. Provide a verse by verse points by using the Bible to defend a sin and still be saved belief.​

    If not, you are violating forum rules, friend.

    Thank you;
    And may God bless you.
     
  6. Tree of Life

    Tree of Life Hide The Pain

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    One at a time, buddy.

    James uses the same word, ptaio, in James 2:10 - "For whoever keeps the whole law but fails (ptaio) in one point has become guilty of all of it." He is referring to offending God, not simply offending people.

    Sins of speech are included and that's where he goes with it. But before he focuses in on sins of speech, he says that we all stumble in many ways (not just in speech).
     
  7. Resha Caner

    Resha Caner Expert Fool

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    My advice to others on this forum would be to ignore you. I realize it won't happen. You'll get plenty of fodder to stoke your ego. But I pray God will open your ears to listen to those around you.

    Proverbs 18:2, Proverbs 29:20
     
  8. A_Thinker

    A_Thinker Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Okay ... so let's do it this way. Let's see where we agree and where we diverge ...

    I'll list points of my belief/doctrine ... and you tell me if you agree ...

    1. Human beings are saddled with a sin nature ... as a result of Adam/Eve's fall in Eden.

    2. As a result, we are prone to sin ... from a fallen human standpoint.

    3. Sin must be forgiven ... for us to maintain relationship with God.

    4. Christ came into the world to provide grace ... such that our sins might be forgiven by God.

    5. As God's people, we are instructed to repent of our sin (whether intentional or not) ... and ask God's forgiveness (i.e. like David).

    6. Asking God's forgiveness of our sinfulness is a component of the prayer life that Jesus gave example to in the Model Prayer (Matthew 6). Note that Jesus did not indicate that we must be able to delineate every particular sin.

    7. Praying always (and thus, asking for God's pardon of sin) is a component of Jesus' description of a life of following God's commandments/will.

    8. God has promised to grant us His forgiveness when we ask.

    Do you agree with these points ?

    Because this, I would say, is the default Protestant position on sin in the life of a believer. We are to avoid it, ... but if we do sin, ... we are encouraged to repent and ask God's forgiveness, ... which He will graciously give.

    How does this differ from your position ?
     
  9. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Read the latter half of the verse. It says he will give according to a person's deeds. This is confirmed in Romans 2:5-6, Matthew 25:21, and Matthew 25:30, as well.

    What do you consider as prized among men? What do you think happens when a person enters the Sanctification Process via the Holy Spirit? Is living holy via the Spirit optional? If so, where does the Bible talk about this?

    Anyways, if you skip back to Luke 10:25-28, Jesus agrees with the lawyer on the truth that we must love God and love our neighbor as a part of inheriting eternal life.

    If you were to read verse 13 in the same chapter you would realize that it says this:

    "For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live." (Romans 8:13).​

    In other words, if a person lives after the flesh (sin), they will die (die spiritually). But if they put to death the deeds of the body (sin) via the Spirit, they will live (live spiritually).

    There are so many red flags like this in the Bible that it would make one think they were in a Russian airport.

    When you read Revelation 2:23, you need to also read verse 11 that says,

    "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death." (Revelation 2:11).

    The context of "overcometh" is being faithful.

    "...be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." (Revelation 2:10).

    "His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord." (Matthew 25:21).

    Being faithful is tied to being faithful over things and it is tied to our entering the joy of our Lord (i.e. being saved).

    The same line of thought is expressed in Revelation 2:11, can be seen in other verses:

    “...We are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end.” (Hebrews 3:13-14).

    "Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life,...” (James 1:12).

    “...He that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.” (Matthew 24:13).

    “To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life,...” (Revelation 2:7).

    "...He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death." (Revelation 2:11).

    "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life,...” (Revelation 3:5).

    "Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." (Jude 1:21).

    We are told to:

    1. Continue in the grace of God (Acts of the Apostles 13:43).

    2. Continue in the faith (Acts of the Apostles 14:22) (Colossians 1:23).

    3. Continue in his goodness, otherwise we can be cut off (just like the Jews were cut off) (Romans 11:21-22).

    So there is no such thing as a believer automatically doing the right thing if that is what you are suggesting. We have to endure, overcome, etc. as a part of salvation.
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2019
  10. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Again, off topic. Please provide a biblical case (at least 10 good verses or so) that a believer can sin and still be saved. Thank you.
     
  11. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    There is no "my position." There is only the position of the Lord. The Lord Jesus says if a person looks upon a woman in lust their whole body can be cast into hell fire (Matthew 5:28-30). Jesus says if we do not forgive, we will not be forgiven (Matthew 6:15). John says that if we hate our brother, we are like a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in them (1 John 3:15). John says that all liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire (Revelation 21:8). John does not say there is another group of liars who are going to be saved from the Lake of Fire. Ananias and Sapphira died for lying to the Spirit. This was only one sin they committed and a great fear came upon the church. Fear does not make sense as an emotion if they were never saved, or if they were secure in their salvation. Fear only makes sense if they knew that such a thing could happen to them. Hence, why we are told to work out our salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12). The Parable of the Prodigal Son teaches us that when the son came home, the father said to the son that he was "dead" and he became "alive again." He was said to be "lost" and he is now "found." This parable was speaking in spiritual terms (See Luke 15:11-32).

    Anyways, you are still off topic. You still need to at least meet the requirements of this thread by offering a biblical case (at least 10 good verses or more) to prove that a believer can sin and still be saved.
     
  12. A_Thinker

    A_Thinker Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Just a few further responses to your post here ...

    1. I think a viable question is ... what is required in the pursuit of "keeping Jesus' commandments" ?

    Is it your contention that a perfect life (i.e. no sin) is necessary ?

    Or ... merely that a striving for perfection is called for ... with failures in such a striving mitigated by God forgiving us when we ask ?

    2. I think that we should note that Judas is an outlier. On the one hand, he was only 1 out of 12 of Jesus' disciples, ... and on the other hand, ... he was the prophesied "son of perdition".

    3. And, in regard to this passage you cited ...

    It says we deny Jesus before men, He will deny us before the Father.

    ... you do realize that is exactly what Peter did, right ?
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2019
  13. A_Thinker

    A_Thinker Well-Known Member Supporter

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    How would you respond to Jesus' teaching here ...

    John 5:24 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that hears my word, and believes on him that sent me, has everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."
     
  14. Tree of Life

    Tree of Life Hide The Pain

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    Lol. Since you moved the goal posts 5 pages into this thread, I no longer want to play. I find it more productive to deal with passages one at a time rather than en masse. It's too easy for you to dismiss important details with a general response. You've rigged the game in your favor. I'm out.
     
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  15. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    I believe Sinless Perfection primarily deals with putting away minor transgressions or faults of character that do not condemn a believer (Please see this thread here to learn more about it). Please keep in mind that what I am about to say with Scripture below is NOT in reference of reaching a state of Sinless Perfection (Which is a topic that is not allowed to be discussed at length in this section of the forums). I do not believe all sin is the same. For example: There is a sin that does not lead to death (1 John 5:17). Anyways, the pieces of Scripture that I am about to mention is in view of a believer overcoming grievous sin (like: Lying, lust, hating, stealing, etc. and or any other sin that the Bible explicitly mentions in relation to spiritual death); Please understand, that I the verses I am about to mention are NOT in reference to confessed grievous sin (that one is seeking to overcome), and neither are they in reference to minor transgressions of faults of character (like going over the speed limit a little without thinking about it, or forgetting to take out the trash on time).

    To understand better in where I am coming from, see post #97, and post #98 to you below.

    Anyways, to address your point above:

    Well, while it is true that the spirit is willing, and the flesh is weak (Matthew 26:40), we are also told to:

    Walk after the Spirit and we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh (Galatians 5:16).

    We are told to put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and not fulfill the lust of the flesh (Romans 13:14).

    Galatians 5:24 says that they are are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts.

    2 Corinthians 7:1 says we are to cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. How can we do that if things are as you say?

    2 Peter 2:1, and 2 Peter 2:14 talks about false prophets who cannot cease from sin. It does not make any sense if believers also cannot cease from sin if that is a characteristic of false prophets.

    Agreed.

    Agreed.

    Right, we need to confess our sin in order to be forgiven of sin (just like David in Psalms 51), and just as we are told by John in 1 John 1:9.

    I believe this is a starter prayer for the believer and it is not meant to be something that spans over their entire life. In fact, this prayer does not say that it must be done as a daily thing the rest of our lives. Seeking to be forgiven of our debts is tied to the eventual goal of 2 Corinthians 7:1.

    Believers are told to repent of specific sins. Peter told Simon the sorcerer to repent by way of seeking forgiveness with the Lord by way of prayer so as to forgiven of his wickedness in trying to pay for the Spirit (and the power thereof). Simon asked Peter to pray for him that he may be forgiven, and Peter did not say, "Oh, hey Simon, it's okay; You are once saved always saved." "Don't worry about your sin."

    But no such words were ever said to Simon by Peter (See: Acts of the Apostles 8:9-24).

    Right, and if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9).

    But if we are not doing that, we are not forgiven. We need to confess of sin so as to be forgiven of sin as per 1 John 1:9. Proverbs 28:13 says he that confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy. But if we are abiding in sin always and just paying lip service only, then that would not really be in line with Proverbs 28:13 and many other verses.
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2019
  16. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    The goal of the thread was always for a person to prove their case with the Bible that a believer can sin and still be saved. I shouldn't have had to directly tell a person to post 10 verses or more at least to defend their position on the Sin and Still Be Saved View of Soteriology. It was implied. One poster understood what I was saying and they posted accordingly and stayed on topic. Up until this point: Everyone else chose not stay on topic with the OP and they chose to instead go off topic and do their own thing. I believe this is because there is no real offensive position that can be made for Belief Alone-sim or a Sin and Still Be Saved Type Belief. Your leaving without making a biblical case for a Sin and Still Be Saved Type Belief only strengthens my argument.

    For Belief Alone-ism does not hold up to scrutiny.
    When we look closely at the context of verses, and or cross references, the supposed "Sin and Still Be Saved" type verses quickly fade away as if they were all mirage in a person's mind.

    Good day to you, sir.
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2019
  17. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Not all sin is the same.

    Minor infractions or faults of character is another name for a "sin not unto death" (i.e. not unto death = not unto spiritual death or the second death) (Note: While the "sin not unto death" mentioned in 1 John 5:16 is in context to confessed sin in John's epistle (See: 1 John 1:9), it can be extended loosely to refer to the kind of sins that do not lead to spiritual death by it's very name).

    "Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults."
    (Psalms 19:12).​

    Examples of Sins That Do Not Lead Unto Spiritual Death:

    #1. 1 John 5:16-17 mentions the "sin not unto death."
    In context to 1 John 5: This would be talking about confessed grievous sin that one is striving to overcome with the Lord's help (1 John 2:1) (1 John 1:9) (Romans 13:14). In 1 John 5, the brethren are praying for this believer to have victory (life) over their sin as this believer confesses their sin.

    #2. Psalms 19:12 says, "Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults." I believe these would be faults of character or minor errors that a person might make with people. Example: A person may not be a great listener, and they do not allow others to speak like they should. By not listening to others may come off a little like they do not care (even though they care in their own way or a different way). Paul wanted to go to Jerusalem. The Spirit warned Paul not to go. He was still determined to go because he loved His fellow Jews and wanted them to know the love of Jesus. The Spirit told the brethren that Paul will be imprisoned by his going to Jerusalem. The brethren warned Paul not to go. They were in tears and loved him and begged him not to go. But Paul did not listen. He would not hear them. He did not want to hear it. Fault of character. Hidden fault. Minor error of his character. It is not something that condemned him (See Acts of the Apostles 21, and read this article here by Ray Stedman; Note: There is even a better write up than this one by Bible commentator James Boice here; Please keep in mind I do not share their views on Soteriology, though; I merely agree with their view on what happened with Paul in Acts of the Apostles 21).

    #3. The Command to Be Baptized.
    Paul says Christ sent him not to baptize but to preach the gospel (1 Corinthians 1:17). If it was essential to salvation, then why would Paul say something like this? In 1 Peter 3:21: Peter says baptism is not for the putting away of the filth of the flesh. If you were to turn to 2 Corinthians 7:1, you would see that it uses similar wording ("filthiness of the flesh") that is clearly in reference to sin. So Peter is saying that baptism is not for the putting away of "sin" [i.e. filth of the flesh]. In other words, baptism is not a command that if disobeyed, leads to spiritual death.

    #4. Other Commands in the New Testament that do not seem like a major violation of loving God and loving your neighbor that have no death penalties attached to them. One example would be the command to Rejoice when men persecute you or falsely accuse you of evil in Matthew 5:11-12.

    Real world examples: Going 5 miles per hour over the speed limit in area that is not life threatening to others. Not taking out the trash yesterday when it was a little stinky. These minor transgressions would obviously not send a Christian to hell.

    But we as Christians strive to obey and do good in all things in the Lord. We strive to keep His commandments. For it is written,

    "For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.' (1 John 5:3).​


    Side Note:

    Please understand that it is not possible for a person to obey God's commands without them first being saved by Jesus Christ and His grace (i.e. by seeking forgiveness of their sin with Him, and believing in His death, and resurrection on their behalf). For Christians are initially and ultimately saved by Jesus Christ.
     
  18. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    There are grievous sins that lead unto spiritual death, and there are minor infractions or hidden faults that do not lead to spiritual death.

    Grievous sin is another name for a "sin unto death"
    (Note: To check out the reference to the "sin unto death," see: 1 John 5:16).
    (i.e. death = spiritual death or the second death) (Note: The second death is destruction in the Lake of Fire - Revelation 21:8).

    "And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;" (Genesis 18:20).​

    Examples of Grievous Sin:

    #1. Not loving God, and not loving your neighbor (For loving God and loving your neighbor is a part of eternal life; See: Luke 10:25-28 cf. Matthew 19:17-19; Not loving Jesus (God) means one is accursed, see: 1 Corinthians 16:22; As for not loving your neighbor, see the Parable of the Good Samaritan (Luke 10:29-37), and then see number #5 below).

    #2. Looking at a woman in lust = danger of being cast bodily into hell fire (Matthew 5:28-30).

    #3. Not forgiving = not being forgiven by the Father (Matthew 6:15).

    #4. One can be condemned by their words (Matthew 12:37).

    #5. Not helping the poor or the unfortunate = Going away into everlasting punishment (or everlasting fire) (Matthew 25:31-46).

    #6. No man who puts his hand to the plow (i.e. one who spreads the gospel and teachings to lead men of God into holiness by His Word) and looks back (turns away from doing so) is fit for the Kingdom of God (Luke 9:62) (Note: See the KJV rendering on this verse).

    #7. 1 John 3:15 says, "Whoever hates his brother is a murderer: and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."

    #8. Galatians 5:19-21 says, "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." Meaning, those who do these kinds of sins will not inherit (enter) God's kingdom (i.e. they will not be saved). For entering God's kingdom is associated with salvation in Matthew 25:34 (Note: Paul is mentioning the violation of the Moral Law. The Moral Law is the same equivalent as loving your neighbor; See Romans 13:8-10).

    #9. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. (Revelation 21:8).​
     
  19. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Well, if you are suggesting that this verse proves that we can "sin and still be saved" on some level, then such a verse is not "quoted for truth" (QFT).

    When you read Revelation 14:6, you also have to read Revelation 22 that says,

    14 "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
    15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie." (Revelation 22:14).​

    Blessed are they that do his commandments, for they have the right to the tree of light and to enter the gates into the city of New Jerusalem. Outside the gates are sinners who murder, who are into idolatry, and who love to make a lie, etc. Not sure how that helps you in a "sin and still be saved" type belief (if that is what you believe).
     
  20. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Disciple Supporter

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    So, you asking us for scriptures or for God to say that it's perfectly OK to sin and it's just fine, and all perfectly alright...?

    Well, your not going to get it... Cause He or God's Word would never say that... but the "Whole Bible" clearly says that all are sinners and will sin, and are in and under sin in this life, and tells them that there is a way to be saved, and that that way is not by your own will or works in being completely sinless, ect, not the new way in the NT anyway, cause that is the Old way, that was never given for anyone to live up to or keep perfectly except Jesus alone... No one else ever did ever, and no one else can ever, and no one else will ever... So, there must be "another way to be saved, which is forgiveness through faith and "right believing" and Grace and Mercy and Love, ect, in the NC, NT, ect, or which is Christ...

    If no one can sin and still be saved, then none, except Jesus Christ or God Himself alone is or can be saved...

    The "entire NT taken in it's entirety" explains "just how a person can still sin and be saved"... but it is not ever going to say or tell you that sin is all, all perfectly OK, or alright, or fully permissible, ect, either... Except that it (sin) is (permissible) under "certain circumstances", circumstances that are explained fully in the NT, under the NC with Christ... Circumstances that people like you are not under or in, but we are...

    To "explain that" takes "whole books", not just cherry picked scriptures or a list of scriptures taken out of their context and twisted into what one with an opposite agenda would want them to say, that is not actually what they mean or are meant to say...

    Anyone, any idiot/monkey, ect, can do that... to say "anything they want any of it to mean" or say... and it's not right at all and is sin and is great sin and is sinning greatly... It's "blasphemy" of the most greatest and at the same time the most subtle kind, that only appeals to the most gullible and most ignorant kind of people... Whom they lead astray away from the true Gospel, ect... In this case trying to take them back to Law or the OC... which is the enemy of the NC (and Christ) under the NC and under Grace...

    God Bless!
     
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