Prove your case biblically that believers can willfully sin and still be saved while doing so.

[Hammster]

I guess I posted for nothing.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Very well.

Since your post is long and does not contain scripture, I will not read it either, measuring it back and so forth.

The choice is up to you if you want to participate in the thread topic or not. Two people understood what I was talking about and they have already successfully participated in my thread topic (without any clarification on my end). But the choice is up to you.

Provide Scripture references or don't. If you provide Scripture numbers, I will see that you are posting from the Bible at a quick glance and I will try to reply to your post. But the ball is truly in your court.

 

[JIMINZ]

First, I am more than aware of Scriptural references, dear sir. When I quickly glance at a post and I do not see actual verse reference numbers, I am going to skip past that post because 9 times out of 10 that person is not quoting Scripture. But even if this was the case for you, I think it is only fair that you would want to quote Scripture to help others to read the verses for themselves in the Bible.

Second, I also did not read people's longer posts as a general rule if I do not see any Scripture references because I come here to discuss the Bible and not the thoughts of men.

Three, it is implied in my OP that you should provide verses because I am asking for you to make a biblical case for the idea that a believer can sin and still be saved. I am now going to update my OP to say that a person needs to put forth a verse number in order to participate in the thread topic. I shouldn't have to tell you that, it is implied by my words in the OP; However, I am going to update my OP to include this criteria (Just in case there may be others who may think as you do).

Please take note that two other people have properly participated correctly without any special instructions. All I ask is you to participate in the thread topic of discussion as it was originally intended when I started it from the beginning.

Thank you, and may God bless you.

HOW IS IT DETERMINED WHAT SIN IS?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I guess I posted for nothing.

Not at all. I was replying to people's posts all day until you arrived. I did not get a lot of sleep, so I had to take a break and get a quick nap. I will strive to reply to your verses in time. I did reply to another poster who successfully posted verses earlier.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

The choice is up to you if you want to participate in the thread topic or not. Two people understood what I was talking about and they have already successfully participated in my thread topic (without any clarification on my end). But the choice is up to you.

Provide Scripture references or don't. If you provide Scripture numbers, I will see that you are posting from the Bible at a quick glance and I will try to reply to your post. But the ball truly in your court.

Nah, I was just not responding to that particular post because of the way it was phrased.

I might post more later.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

HOW IS IT DETERMINED WHAT SIN IS?

This is not the topic of discussion. This thread is not me being on the defensive always in trying to prove to you what the Bible says. You are to be on the offensive for a change. You need to convince me what you think sin is and then you need to prove your case how a believer can sin and still be saved. Please provide 10 or more verses to make your case. Thanks.

Side Note:

If you cannot make a case for how a believer can sin and still be saved on some level with providing 10 or more verses then you would be off topic. I don't mind a little debate afterwards, but this thread is not about me defending against your questions, and or your posting of only 1-2 verses. But it is about you defending a belief that a saint can sin and still be saved with 10 or more verses.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Honestly there are no verses that say "sin and be saved". It is quite the opposite. That being said, scripture speaks of Jesus Christ of Nazareth as the propitiation for our sins.
1 John 2:2 "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."

This verse has a very inclusive meaning. We should take heed in what our Lord did for humanity.
Blessings

I am not discounting the belief that a saint can honestly stumble unintentionally into sin, but they should not have the mindset that they will sin again unintentionally as a matter of fact because they cannot help but to sin and they are saved even if they do unintentionally sin (Whether they confess or forsake of it or not). Proverbs 28:13 essentially says that he that confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy. So yes, there is mercy, but I believe it is for the saint who believes they will in time overcome grievous sin (like lying, lusting, hating, etc.). For they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts. The core of what I am getting at here is that people think they can do evil on some level (as a future mind set in some way) and still be saved. They may say, "Believers can never stop looking at women in lust, even though we fight against it, etc.; Thus we are saved by having a belief alone on Jesus." That is the kind of thinking that I am asking for you to defend with Scripture (if you believe that way).

Honestly stumbling into sin (unintentionally) is a different matter entirely. 1 John 2:1 tells us to "sin not." Jesus says to "sin no more" (John 5:14, and John 8:11).

If you believe that a saint can abide in unconfessed sin and still be saved on some level, then please provide 10 or more verses to prove your case.

 

[Kaon]

In Acts of the Apostles 5:1-11: Ananias and Sapphira died for lying to the Holy Ghost and a great fear fell upon the church. The emotion of fear does not make any sense if they were:

(a) Never saved.
(b) They were secure in their salvation.​

The emotion of fear by the church only makes sense is if they could also be judged by God and condemned at death themselves in a similar manner by a some other kind of sin. For why else are we told to work out our salvation with fear and trembling? (Philippians 2:12). I mean, why all the trembling if Philippians 2:12 is not talking about fear? Anyways, your missing the point of the thread, my friend. If you believe that a saint can abide in unconfessed sin on some level (whether done intentionally or not) and still be saved while committing that sin, then please prove your case with 10 or more verses in the Bible.

Or, the church was scared because they realized they were subjected to the same judgment should they follow in the same suit.

Fear is the beginning of wisdom; those people may still continue to be charlatans, but tremble as the demons do when confronted with the Word of God.


A saint can abide in unconfessed sin because each denomination has their own conditions on sin. This is why I asked you what rules/laws do you think are in effect, because it will refine what you are looking for. I do not know about the salvation of a "saint" that has unconfessed/unrepentant sin, particularly because "unrepentant" sin and sainthood are oxymorons. If you are talking about canonized saints, then we are talking about man-made laud of other men.

We are talking about several implications in this OP: biblical/canonical Law, salvation and (un)repentance.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Or, the church was scared because they realized they were subjected to the same judgment should they follow in the same suit.

Fear is the beginning of wisdom; those people may still continue to be charlatans, but tremble as the demons do when confronted with the Word of God.

The word "judgment" is too vague of term in me understanding where you are coming from. If you are referring to how they were saved and yet only their physical lives were judged that would not really make any sense. Paul says to live is Christ, and to die is gain. If believers were killed by the Lord, and taken home early, that is like a reward and not a punishment. If they were judged in the sense that they lost their salvation, then we are on the same page; But I get the funny feeling we do not agree.

A saint can abide in unconfessed sin because each denomination has their own conditions on sin. This is why I asked you what rules/laws do you think are in effect, because it will refine what you are looking for. I do not know about the salvation of a "saint" that has unconfessed/unrepentant sin, particularly because "unrepentant" sin and sainthood are oxymorons. If you are talking about canonized saints, then we are talking about man-made laud of other men.

We are talking about several implications in this OP: biblical/canonical Law, salvation and (un)repentance.

There is no such thing as rules on sin outside of the Bible. I said in the OP, for a person to make their case biblically and not to make their case based on their denomination. The Bible is clear on what sins can lead to spiritual death. I shouldn't have to point this out to you in order for you to understand what certain sins that the Bible describes that leads to spiritual death. But again, this thread is not about me being on the defensive. You have to tell me what YOU think sin is, and then you have to prove that a believer can commit sin (however you define sin) with the thinking they can still be saved while sinning. Please provide 10 or more verses to prove your case in the fact that a believer can sin and still be saved. Thanks.

 

[Kaon]

The word "judgment" is too vague of term in me understanding where you are coming from. If you are referring to how they were saved and yet only their physical lives were judged that would not really make any sense. Paul says to live is Christ, and to die is gain. If believers were killed by the Lord, and taken home early, that is like a reward and not a punishment. If they were judged in the sense that they lost their salvation, then we are on the same page; But I get the funny feeling we do not agree.

It is appointed for man to die once, then judgment. The wages of sin is death. We are already dead rotting meat sacks because God is not a liar. We decay to expiration; most people believe old age is the the main mechanism for death, when the Most High God can pull your card at any time.

They trembled because of their ignorance of the Law.

I don't k ow what the Most High God did with their salvation.

There is no such thing as rules on sin outside of the Bible. I said in the OP, for a person to make their case biblically and not to make their case based on their denomination. The Bible is clear on what sins can lead to spiritual death. I shouldn't have to point this out to you in order for you to understand what certain sins that the Bible describes that leads to spiritual death. But again, this thread is not about me being on the defensive. You have to tell me what YOU think sin is, and then you have to prove that a believer can commit sin (however you define sin) with the thinking they can still be saved while sinning. Please provide 10 or more verses to prove your case in the fact that a believer can sin and still be saved. Thanks.

The Word of God is the Word of God, and a living entity. He is the primsry source of Truth. The bible is a canonical text.

Still, as I said before, there is no place in the canonical, apocryphal or Gnostic texts that suggest one can be a saint and continue in urepentant sin.

 

[JIMINZ]

This is not the topic of discussion. This thread is not me being on the defensive always in trying to prove to you what the Bible says. You are to be on the offensive for a change. You need to convince me what you think sin is and then you need to prove your case how a believer can sin and still be saved. Please provide 10 or more verses to make your case. Thanks.

Side Note:

If you cannot make a case for how a believer can sin and still be saved on some level with providing 10 or more verses then you would be off topic. I don't mind a little debate afterwards, but this thread is not about me defending against your questions, and or your posting of only 1-2 verses. But it is about you defending a belief that a saint can sin and still be saved with 10 or more verses.

It's pretty sad when the OP refuses to clarify what he means when he uses the term SIN, or is he not knowledgeable enough on the subject to do so.

My 1 Question was

HOW IS IT DETERMINED WHAT SIN IS?

How can a discussion take place if we do not know what is actually being talked about?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

It's pretty sad when the OP refuses to clarify what he means when he uses the term SIN, or is he not knowledgeable enough on the subject to do so.

My 1 Question was



How can a discussion take place if we do not know what is actually being talked about?

Again, this thread is not about me defending anything (Although I can critique your posting of verses after you prove your case that a believer can sin and still be saved). I know what sin is according to the Bible. But your question is not the topic of this thread. If you have a certain view of sin, then you need to explain what sin is in light of the Bible, and then you need to defend how a believer can sin and still be saved by showing forth 10 or more verses. This thread is about you going on the offensive for a change and not me being always on the defensive. That is the topic of this thread. I will ask you again to stay on topic of this thread. If you want to start another thread on what sin is, you are free to do so (But that is not the topic of discussion here). You can post what your view of sin is so as to clarify what you think sin is so as to explain how a believer can sin and still be saved with the Bible. But you need to provide 10 verses in showing how a believer can sin and still be saved to stay on topic.

 

[A_Thinker]

In Acts of the Apostles 5:1-11: Ananias and Sapphira died for lying to the Holy Ghost and a great fear fell upon the church. The emotion of fear does not make any sense if they were:

(a) Never saved.
(b) They were secure in their salvation

Right ... because physical death in and of itself, frightens noone.

So then, Aanias had no reason to fear Saul ... but. he did ...

 

[JIMINZ]

Again, this thread is not about me defending anything

Giving a clarification of the word which is at the crux of you stance on this position is in no way a defending of your said position, it's what normal people do when they want to engage in an open and honest discussion.

Do you really not know how Sin is determined, what I am attempting to ascertain is, how are you determining what Sin is for the purpose of this thread?

When you say, the crux of the Thread is "about a believer defending the belief, a saint can sin and still be saved" that's it in a nut shell, my question to you for clarification purposes is. "How Is Sin Determined?"

 

[JIMINZ]

In Acts of the Apostles 5:1-11: Ananias and Sapphira died for lying to the Holy Ghost and a great fear fell upon the church. The emotion of fear does not make any sense if they were:

(a) Never saved.
(b) They were secure in their salvation.​

The emotion of fear by the church only makes sense is if they could also be judged by God and condemned at death themselves in a similar manner by a some other kind of sin. For why else are we told to work out our salvation with fear and trembling? (Philippians 2:12). I mean, why all the trembling if Philippians 2:12 is not talking about fear? Anyways, your missing the point of the thread, my friend. If you believe that a saint can abide in unconfessed sin on some level (whether done intentionally or not) and still be saved while committing that sin, then please prove your case with 10 or more verses in the Bible.

In rebuttal to your statement about the verse.

Php. 2:12
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Your assumption of the Philippians verse is that they were fearful because of what had happened to Ananias and Sapphira this could not be further from the truth, the fact of the matter in this verse from Paul to the Philippians is, he clearly says why they should "Work Out their Salvation with Fear and Trembling"

He clearly says, I am going away, and I will not be here to spoon feed you, you will have to do it on your own.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
— John 3:16

Well, if you were to keep reading beyond John 3:16, you would discover the "Condemnation" mentioned in John 3:19-21. It says all who do evil hate the light and neither come to the Light. So if a person has the intention of continuing to do evil while believing in Jesus, they are not coming to the true Light as described in the Bible (and they are not truly believing on God's terms). For all who do evil hate the light (John 3:20). So believing in Jesus for salvation includes doing what He says.

For Jesus says why do you call me Lord, Lord, and do not what I say? (Luke 6:46).
Jesus said, "But if ye believe not his writings [i.e. Moses writings], how shall ye believe my words?" (John 5:47). So believing in Jesus includes doing what He says.

When Peter failed to walk on water (i.e. to do a work of God), Jesus said to Peter,

"O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt? " (Matthew 14:31).

In fact, in John 16:8-9, we learn that the Holy Spirit will convict the world of it's sin and of righteousness because they do not believe on Jesus. To be convicted of sin is to lead one to seeking forgiveness with the Lord.

"For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death." (2 Corinthians 7:10).

James says he will show his faith (belief) by his works (James 2:18).
Paul says, faith works by love (Galatians 5:6).
Jesus says if we love Him, we will keep His commandments (John 14:15).
So love is obviously a part of the faith;
And without faith, it is impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:6).
If we are sinning, we are obviously not loving God because Jesus says if we love Him, we will keep His commandments. Can a person be saved without loving God?
Paul says if any man loves not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be accursed (1 Corinthians 16:22).

Let me give you a real world example:

If Rick said that his old rocking chair on his porch was able to hold his weight, and he said he believed that with all his heart, would he truly be showing forth that his statement of faith was true if he never sat in the chair? Especially if he was asked to sit in it and yet he refused to do so? In other words, if Rick believed that his porch chair would hold his weight (and he told others this), he would no doubt take the action necessary by sitting in that chair to prove that such a statement was true. Otherwise it would just be an empty profession of faith. In other words, if a person says they love God, and they have no visible good fruit to show that such a thing is true, then it would be just an empty profession of faith that they love God. Meaning, they really do not love God. It would just be a paying of lip service. I mean, a man can say he loves his wife, but if he does nothing to please her in any way, then he really does not love her. Action shows forth whether one's faith is the genuine and the real article vs. it being fake.

Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?”
— John 11:25-26

The apostle John also talks about death in Revelation.

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death." (Revelation 2:11).

The context of "overcometh" is being faithful.

"...be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." (Revelation 2:10).

To be faithful is to be faithful over doing things.

"His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord." (Matthew 25:21).

Being faithful is tied to being faithful over things and it is tied to our entering the joy of our Lord (i.e. being saved).

The same line of thought is expressed in Revelation 2:11, can be seen in other verses:

“...We are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end.” (Hebrews 3:13-14).

"Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life,...” (James 1:12).

“...He that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.” (Matthew 24:13).

“To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life,...” (Revelation 2:7).

"...He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death." (Revelation 2:11).

"He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life,...” (Revelation 3:5).

"Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." (Jude 1:21).​

We are told to:

1. Continue in the grace of God (Acts of the Apostles 13:43).
   
   
2. Continue in the faith (Acts of the Apostles 14:22) (Colossians 1:23).
   
   
3. Continue in his goodness, otherwise we can be cut off (just like the Jews were cut off) (Romans 11:21-22).

We have to endure, overcome, keep ourselves in the love of God, continue in the grace of God, etc. as a part of salvation.

So it is more than just having a belief alone that the apostle James condemns in James 2:17-19, and James 2:24, etc.; One has to overcome by being faithful so as not be hurt by the second death (Revelation 2:10-11).

“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
— John 5:24

I bolded the words that are a part of the conditions involved in having eternal life. He who hears the words of the Lord Jesus is a part of having eternal life. So we have to follow the teachings of Jesus in order to have eternal life. For 1 John 2:4 says that the person who says they know the Lord and they do not keep His commandments (i.e. hears his Word), they are a liar and the truth (i.e. Jesus is the Truth - John 14:6) is not in them. No man can be saved without abiding in Jesus (who is the source of Truth). For 1 John 5:12 says that he that has the Son has life, and he that does not have the Son, does not have life.

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
— John 10:27-28

I again bolded the words that are a part of the context here. For the context of the kind of sheep that cannot be snatched out of the Lord's hand is the kind of sheep that FOLLOW Jesus. That is what it says in verse 27. So this is not a mere belief alone where a person sins (Which is the polar opposite of following Jesus). Following Jesus would include walking after the life that He lived and not justifying the idea that we can sin and still be saved.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

— Titus 3:5-7

Titus 3:5-7 is referring to “Initial Salvation.” For this passage talks about how we are saved according to his mercy, and the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost. The regeneration is a one time event of being born again. So this is in reference to “Initial Salvation.”

However, we learn that God’s grace is not a license for immorality (i.e. That we can sin and still be saved), though. For if you were to skip back to the previous chapter, you would read that God’s grace teaches us to deny ungodliness, and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world (See: Titus 2:11-12). Titus 2:14 also says, “Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.” If you were to skip back to chapter 1, you would learn that Paul says that a person can deny God by a lack of works (Titus 1:16). But we know that just doing good works is not going to cut it with Jesus if we are also working iniquity or sin (See: Matthew 7:23); For without holiness, no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14).

Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven,

And whose sins have been covered. “Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account.”

— Romans 4:4-8

This again is in reference to “Initial Salvation” because Paul says that Abraham was saved first by having a belief in God before he was circumcised (See Romans 4:9-12). Also, there is a difference between: “Works of Earning Money (Works Alone Salvationism)” vs. “Works of Responsibility in Owning a Free Gift.”

To him that works his reward is not of grace but it is of debt as if it was some kind of obligation like at a job whereby he works so as to earn money.

"Now to a laborer, his wages are not counted as a favor or a gift, but as an obligation (something owed to him)." (Romans 4:4) (AMPC).​

So yes. I agree. Works Alone or trading dollars for hours like at a job involving salvation is wrong. Works Alone Salvationism (Without God's grace) is wrong because a person has no grace or rest ever. It is purely a works based system of salvation and no grace or mercy (like with Christ) if one messes up. A person's good deeds have to outweigh their bad deeds alone (with no grace whatsoever).

But this is not the same thing as "Works of Responsibility in Owning a Free Gift."

I believe God's grace is a free gift as Scripture says (Ephesians 2:8). Gifts are received, and then we do works of responsibility to take care of those gifts.

Let me give you an example:

If Rick received a car as a free gift from his dad, does that mean he can run red lights, drive drunk, and hit pedestrians? No. If he were to do that, he would not have his gift for very long. Now, was his car any less a free gift because he had to do works of responsibility in possessing his free gift? No. Did Rick have to work at a job and get a loan to buy this car? No. It was a free gift from his dad.

So working like at a job (trading dollars for hours) is not the same as doing "Works of responsibility in owning a free gift." Paul is not talking about responsibility in possessing Jesus Christ (Who is our gift). Paul is talking about trying to earn your salvation by a system of "Works Salvationism Alone" that did not include God's grace at all.

Also, the context says, “...what profit is there in circumcision?” (Romans 3:1).

Why would Paul say this?

Well, Paul said this because he was fighting against "Circumcision Salvationism" (Which is Law Alone Salvationism without God's grace); A certain sect of Jews were trying to deceive some Christians into thinking they had to first be circumcised in order to be saved. This was a heresy that was clearly addressed at the Jerusalem council (See Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, Acts of the Apostles 15:24). Paul also addressed this problem; Paul said to the Galatians that if you seek to be circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing (Galatians 5:2), and then Paul mentions how if you seek to be justified by the Law, you have fallen from grace (Galatians 5:4). This "law" is the Torah because circumcision is not a part of the commands given to us by Jesus and His followers.

Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

— Romans 8:1

The full version of Romans 8:1 in the KJV says,

“There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Romans 8:1) (KJV).​

The removed words are the key to not being under the “Condemnation.”

The removed word tells us that we have to walk not after the flesh (sin), but after the Spirit in Christ Jesus so as not to be under the Condemnation.

This is truth is confirmed in Romans 8:13 that says,

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).​

In other words, this verse is saying that if we live after the flesh (sin), we will die (die spiritually), and if we mortify (put to death) the deeds of the body (sin) via the Holy Spirit, we shall live (live spiritually).

Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy, to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.

— Jude 24-25

I am not sure what this has to do with proving a sin and still be saved type belief. The point of this verse is to walk uprightly with God helping us to keep us from stumbling into sin.

Anyways, speaking of Jude: Jude 1:4 says that there are those who turn God’s grace into a license for immorality. Surely if this was something that was bad by those who were not believers, then we cannot have such a belief, as well. So Jude 1:4 is basically saying we cannot say that we can sin and still be saved (i.e. turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness).

For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

— Philippians 1:6

Again, I am not sure how this verse helps to prove that a believer can sin and still be saved. This verse is saying that the Lord will perfect the good work He does within us. Anyways, when you read Philippians 1:6, you need to also read Philippians 2:12 that says we are to work out salvation with fear and trembling. Why all the trembling if Paul is not talking about fear? Why even fear if we are secure forever in our salvation by having a belief alone in Jesus? It makes no sense.

 

[Hammster]

Titus 3:5-7 is referring to “Initial Salvation.” For this passage talks about how we are saved according to his mercy, and the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost. The regeneration is a one time event of being born again. So this is in reference to “Initial Salvation.”


However, we learn that God’s grace is not a license for immorality (i.e. That we can sin and still be saved), though. For if you were to skip back to the previous chapter, you would read that God’s grace teaches us to deny ungodliness, and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world. Titus 2:14 says, “Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.” If you were to skip back to chapter 1, you would learn that Paul says that a person can deny God by a lack of works (Titus 1:16). But we know that just doing good works is not going to cut it with Jesus if they are also working iniquity or sin (See Matthew 7:23).





This again is in reference to “Initial Salvation” because Paul says that Abraham was saved first by having a belief in God before he was circumcised (See Romans 4:9-12). Also, there is a difference between: “Works of Earning Money (Works Alone Salvationism)” vs. “Works of Responsibility in Owning a Free Gift.”


To him that works his reward is not of grace but it is of debt as if it was some kind of obligation like at a job whereby he works so as to earn money.

"Now to a laborer, his wages are not counted as a favor or a gift, but as an obligation (something owed to him)." (Romans 4:4) (AMPC).​

So yes. I agree. Works Alone or trading dollars for hours like at a job involving salvation is wrong. Muslims are wrong because they have no grace or rest ever. It is purely a works based system of salvation in the Muslim religion and no grace or mercy (like with Christ) if they mess up. Their good deeds have to outweigh their bad deeds.


But this is not the same thing as "Works of Responsibility in Owning a Free Gift."


I believe God's grace is a free gift as Scripture says (Ephesians 2:8). Gifts are received, and then we do works of responsibility to take care of those gifts.


Let me give you an example:

If Rick received a car as a free gift from his dad, does that mean he can run red lights, drive drunk, and hit pedestrians? No. If he were to do that, he would not have his gift for very long. Now, was his car any less a free gift because he had to do works of responsibility in possessing his free gift? No. Did Rick have to work at a job and get a loan to buy this car? No. It was a free gift from his dad.


So working like at a job (trading dollars for hours) is not the same as doing "Works of responsibility in owning a free gift." Paul is not talking about responsibility in possessing Jesus Christ (Who is our gift). Paul is talking about trying to earn your salvation by a system of "Works Salvationism Alone" that did not include God's grace at all.


Also, the context says, “...what profit is there in circumcision?”

Why would Paul say this?



Well, Paul said this because he was fighting against "Circumcision Salvationism" (Which is Law Alone Salvationism without God's grace); A certain sect of Jews were trying to deceive some Christians into thinking they had to first be circumcised in order to be saved. This was a heresy that was clearly addressed at the Jerusalem council (See Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, Acts of the Apostles 15:24). Paul also addressed this problem; Paul said to the Galatians that if you seek to be circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing (Galatians 5:2), and then Paul mentions how if you seek to be justified by the Law, you have fallen from grace (Galatians 5:4). This "law" is the Torah because circumcision is not a part of the commands given to us by Jesus and His followers.






The full version of Romans 8:1 in the KJV says,

“There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.”


The removed words are the key to not being under the “Condemnation.”

The removed word tells us that we have to walk not after the flesh (sin), but after the Spirit in Christ Jesus so as not to be under the Condemnation.


This is truth is confirmed in Romans 8:13 that says,


“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).


In other words, this verse is saying that if we live after the flesh (sin), we will die (die spiritually), and if we mortify (put to death) the deeds of the body (sin) via the Holy Spirit, we shall live (live spiritually).





I am not sure what this has to do with proving a sin and still be saved type belief. The point of this verse is to walk uprightly with God helping us to keep us from stumbling into sin.


Anyways, speaking of Jude: Jude 1:4 says that there are those who turn God’s grace into a license for immorality. Surely if this was something that was bad by those who were not believers, then we cannot have such a belief, as well. So Jude 1:4 is basically saying we cannot say that we can sin and still be saved (i.e. turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness).





Again, I am not sure how this verse helps to prove that a believer can sin and still be saved. This verse is saying that the Lord will perfect the good work He does within us. Anyways, when you read Philippians 1:6, you need to also read Philippians 2:12 that says we are to work out salvation with fear and trembling. Why all the trembling if Paul is not talking about fear? Why even fear if we are secure forever in our salvation by having a belief alone in Jesus? It makes no sense.

You could have broken it up a little bit.

 

[Hammster]

Well, if you were to keep reading beyond John 3:16, you would discover the "Condemnation" mentioned in John 3:19-21. It says all who do evil hate the light and neither come to the Light. So if a person has the intention of continuing to do evil while believing in Jesus, they are not coming to the true Light as described in the Bible (and they are not truly believing on God's terms). For all who do evil hate the light (John 3:20). So believing in Jesus for salvation includes doing what He says.

You are mixing things up. Those who do evil hate the light and don’t come to the light. Believers have come to the light. So it cannot be talking about believers who sin.

 

[Hammster]

We have to endure, overcome, keep ourselves in the love of God, continue in the grace of God, etc. as a part of salvation.

So it is more than just having a belief alone that the apostle James condemns in James 2:17-19, and James 2:24, etc. One has to overcome by being faithful in order to not be hurt by the second death (Revelation 2:10-11).

You are talking about the fruit of salvation. But Jesus was clear that those who believe have eternal life. Don’t confuse the indicatives with the imperatives.