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Prove to me that there was a great apostasy

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There is no doubt, nor has there ever been doubt in my mind and heart, that we gain our understanding through God, by the power of the Holy Ghost. And there can be no doubt that scripture tells us of things we must do to obtain understanding. It sounds to me that you might think there is a discrepancy between the two, but there is not. It is so simple. The things we are told to do are the things that bring us to Christ (if we do them with an eye single to His glory, or for the right reasons), so that He can give us understanding.
 
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You have changed the subject entirely. Perhaps you are responding to another issue accidently.

In your post to me, you acknowledged that there are divisions in Christianity, but you expressed that they were not over matters that are considered "essential," so that made it acceptable. I posted the above in response to your claim that it is acceptable to divide over "non-essential" issues. The word "essential" is not even used biblically, in the KJV. Again I ask you: "So tell me, please. Who did come up with the term "essential," and who had the wisdom to teach the world that there are things pertaining to God that are not essential?"
 
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A New Dawn

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I responded with exactly what I thought appropriate to illustrate the types of things I consider essential.

Differing on whether we are predestined or not, or whether we have free will or not are not points that will make or break a case of Christianity. Stating that one can only be saved if one is baptized in a particular church or by a particular person, etc., will.
 
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Swart

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Jenda said:
Differing on whether we are predestined or not, or whether we have free will or not are not points that will make or break a case of Christianity.

Actually, I believe this to be exactly the case. I believe Free Will to be an immutable part of God's plan.

Did drstevej convince you to be a calvinist as well?
 
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A New Dawn

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Swart said:
Actually, I believe this to be exactly the case. I believe Free Will to be an immutable part of God's plan.

Did drstevej convince you to be a calvinist as well?
Did he convince someone else to be a calvinist?

There are a couple of petals on the TULIP that I believe in, but cannot say that I believe in all of it. Does that make me a calvinist?

And if I become a calvinist, it is because the scriptures (and not drstevej (or anyone else)) have convinced me.
 
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drstevej

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Swart said:
I believe Free Will to be an immutable part of God's plan.

If you and everybody has a free will.... then calling God's plan immutable must be tongue in cheek.
 
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Swart

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Jenda said:
There are a couple of petals on the TULIP that I believe in, but cannot say that I believe in all of it. Does that make me a calvinist?

Hmmm. We could make a primary song out of that..

(to the tune of 'Popcorn popping on the apricot tree')
I looked out the windows and what did I see?
Five petals falling off the TULIP tree


Jenda said:
And if I become a calvinist, it is because the scriptures (and not drstevej (or anyone else)) have convinced me.

That would imply study independent of the guidance of someone else.
 
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A New Dawn

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Swart said:
Hmmm. We could make a primary song out of that..

(to the tune of 'Popcorn popping on the apricot tree')
I looked out the windows and what did I see?
Five petals falling off the TULIP tree
I've never heard that song before, but it sounds awfully cute.

That would imply study independent of the guidance of someone else.
Or it would imply study with more than one individual. Not everyone I know is a Calvinist.
 
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drstevej

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Swart said:
Are you claiming immutable free-will is an oxymormon?

Nope... immutable plan is the oxmoron if there is free will (as Mormons conceive it).

Now I believe in Free Will...



 
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A New Dawn

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BTW, in Heaven... Everyone loves L&O. Nothing else is eaten or even desired. All freely savor the smell and taste of L&O forever and ever. Hallelujah!
AMEN!
 
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Tawhano

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Jenda said:
And if I become a calvinist, it is because the scriptures (and not drstevej (or anyone else)) have convinced me.

If you become a Calvinist then according to their doctrine it will because God picked you long before you were born. It has nothing to do with you at all.
 
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Tawhano said:
If you become a Calvinist then according to their doctrine it will because God picked you long before you were born. It has nothing to do with you at all.

I'm thinking of becoming a solipsist, but there's no point in telling anyone about it.
 
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Tawhano said:
If you become a Calvinist then according to their doctrine it will because God picked you long before you were born. It has nothing to do with you at all.
While that might be true, it will still be decided (for me in the here and now) on the scriptures.
 
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Fit4Christ

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As I see it:

Understanding according to MF = earn by doing (obedience)

Understanding according to F4C = a gift of God, given through His Holy Spirit

I believe that most, if not all, of the early Christian fathers believed the same as I do.
 
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Tawhano

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Jenda said:
While that might be true, it will still be decided (for me in the here and now) on the scriptures.

If it is true then it has already been decided one way or the other and your searching the scriptures has nothing to do with it. If you become a Calvinist on your own accord then you aren’t really a Calvinist. It’s one of those catch 22 thingies…
 
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A New Dawn

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So I should just not study the scriptures and see what develops?
 
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drstevej

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Ah, but if God purposes to use the Scripture to impart the truth of sovereign grace as she studies she indeed is a Calvinist™.
 
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A New Dawn

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drstevej said:
Ah, but if God purposes to use the Scripture to impart the truth of sovereign grace as she studies she indeed is a Calvinist™.
So I should continue to study the scriptures and see what develops.

I am so confused.

 
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Tawhano

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Jenda said:
So I should continue to study the scriptures and see what develops.

Most definitely you should study the scriptures.

Romans 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the Scriptures might have hope.
 
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